Imams' interactions with the rest of Ahlul-Bayt contradict Imamah

[Hani]

Salam,


This thread will be a draft of an article I'm working on, I'll translate bit by bit, points are as follows:


To Show from historical sources (especially Shia) that among Ahlul-Bayt are elements that disbelieved in the Twelver version of Imamah.


To Show that the Shia fabricated reports to insult and attack some members of Ahlul-Bayt due to their disbelief in Twelver Imamah.


For now I shall rely on "رسالة في تواريخ النبيّ والآل عليهم السلام" "A treatise on the history of the prophet and his family (as)" by Muhammad Taqi Tusturi. We will refer to this as Risalah-fil-Tawarikh in the sources below.


أنّ أكثر الموسوية من غير ولد الرضا عليه‌السلام كانوا قائلين بالوقف حيث خرج عنهم الأمر ، كما أنّ أكثر بني الحسن عليه‌السلام حيث خرج عنهم الأمر كانوا عامّية أو زيدية. وكذلك باقي ولد المعصومين عليهم‌السلام من غير المعصوم

[The majority of Musa's (i.e al-Kadhim) descedants except those of al-Rida were of the opinion that Imamah stopped (i.e at Musa) because they were ousted from authority. Similarly, the majority of al-Hasan's (i.e bin `Ali) children because they were also ousted, were primarily Sunnies or Zaydies. The same can be said about the rest of the children of the infallible who aren't infallible.]

Source: Risalah fi Tawarikh al-Nabi wal-Aal.

Feel free to contribute below, this special thread is not for arguing or debates, any off topic post will be deleted. In God's Name let me start so that I may one day finish this by His Will.


1- Children of `Ali bin abi Talib:


A- `Ubaydullah bin `Ali bin abi Talib


قال المسعودي في اثباته : إنّ أمير المؤمنين عليه‌السلام جمع في حال احتضاره أهل بيته ، وهم اثنا عشر ذكرا ، وقال : إنّ الله تبارك وتعالى أحبّ أن يجعل فيّ سنّة يعقوب إذ جمع بنيه وهم اثنا عشر ذكرا ، فقال : إنّي اوصي إلى يوسف فاستمعوا له وأطيعوا أمره ، وإنّي اوصي إلى الحسن والحسين فاسمعوا لهما وأطيعوا أمرهما. فقام إليه عبيد الله فقال : يا أمير المؤمنين أدون محمّد! يعني ابن الحنفية ، فقال عليه‌السلام له : أجرأة في حياتي! كأنّي بك وقد وجدت مذبوحا في خيمة


[Al-Mas`udi said in al-Ithbat: When the chief of believers was dying his household gathered and they were twelve men, he said: "God liked to recreate a tradition from Ya`qub in me so he gathered twelve of his boys. Ya`qub made his will to Yusuf and ordered his obedience. I however have given my will to al-Hasan and al-Husayn so listen to them both and obey." `Ubaydullah stood-up (and interrupted) saying: "O chief of believers, why exclude Muhammad (Ibn al-Hanafiyyah)?" `Ali (as) replied: "You have the audacity to oppose my will during my life!? It is as if I see you slaughtered in a tent."] (Ithbat-ul-Wasiyyah 131, Khara'ij wal-Jara'ih 1/183, Risalah-fil-Tawarikh)



فلمّا كان في زمن المختار أتاه ، فقال : لست هناك! فغضب فذهب إلى مصعب بن الزبير ـ وهو بالبصرة ـ فقال ولّني قتال أهل الكوفة ، فكان على مقدّمة مصعب ، فالتقوا بحرورا ، فلمّا حجز الليل بينهم أصبحوا وقد وجدوه مذبوحا في فسطاطه! لا يدرى من قتله وقال أبو الفرج : قتله أصحاب المختار ، وكان صار إليه فسأله أن يدعو إليه ويجعل الأمر له ، فلم يفعل ، فخرج فلحق بالمصعب ، فقتل في الوقعة وهو لا يعرف

[In the era of al-Mukhtar, he was visited by `Ubaydullah. However, Mukhtar told him: "You're not of high status." This made him angry so he joined Mus`ab bin al-Zubayr -in Basarah- and requested: "Appoint me to head the battle against those Kufans." Thus becoming on Ibn Zubayr's front lines as both armies met in Harura' but when morning came they found him slaughtered in his tent and no one knew by whom. Abu al-Faraj said: "He was killed by Mukhtar's companions. He had initially sought him to request that he calls people towards his own leadership, Mukhtar refused so `Ubaydullah joined Mus`ab and got killed during the battle by unknowns.] (Maqatil al-Talibiyin 84, Risalah-fil-Tawarikh)

B- `Umar bin `Ali bin abi Talib

فروى الإرشاد : أنّه لمّا ولي عبد الملك ردّ إلى السجّاد عليه‌السلام صدقات النبيّ صلى‌الله‌عليه‌وآله‌وسلم وصدقات أمير المؤمنين عليه‌السلام فخرج عمر إليه يتظلّم من ابن أخيه

[It's narrated in al-Irshad: That when `Abdul-Malik reached authority, he returned to al-Sajjad the Prophet's (saw) properties as well as those of `Ali bin abi Talib (as). `Umar bin `Ali visited `Abdul-Malik to complain that his nephew (`Ali bin Husayn) was oppressing him etc..] (Al-Irshad 259, Risalah-fil-Tawarikh)

رواه المناقب ، وزاد : أن عبد الملك قال : قم يا عليّ بن الحسين ، فقد ولّيتكها ، فقاما ، فلمّا خرجا تناوله عمر ، فسكت عليه‌السلام عنه ولم يزد عليه شيئا

[In al-Manaqib he added that `Abdul-Malik said: "Stand O `Ali bin Husayn, I've put you in charge of the properties." Both men left but as they exited `Umar bin `Ali insulted `Ali bin Husayn who remained silent.] (Manaqib Aal abi Talib 4/172, Risalah-fil-Tawarikh)

2- Children of al-Hasan bin `Ali bin abi Talib:

A- Al-Hasan bin al-Hasan bin `Ali bin abi Talib (al-Muthanna)

وروى المفيد : أنّه وقف على عليّ بن الحسين عليه‌السلام رجل من أهل بيته ، فأسمعه وشتمه ( إلى أن قال ) قال الراوي للحديث : والرجل هو الحسن بن الحسن

[Mufid narrated that a man from the household of`Ali bin al-Husayn stood near him then cursed and insulted him -till the narrator said- that man was al-Hasan bin al-Hasan.] (Al-Irshad 257, Risalah-fil-Tawarikh)




B- Zayd bin al-Hasan bin `Ali bin abi Talib


قال المفيد : كان مسالما لبني اميّة ومتقلّدا من قبلهم الأعمال[Mufid said: He (Zayd bin al-Hasan) was peaceful towards bani Umayyah and they often appointed him in positions of government etc..] (Irshad 195, Risalah-fil-Tawarikh)

C- Hasan bin al-Hasan bin al-Hasan bin `Ali bin abi Talib

فروى الاحتجاج عن ابن أبي يعفور قال : لقيت أنا ومعلّى بن خنيس الحسن بن الحسن بن عليّ بن أبي طالب ، فقال : يا يهوديّ! فأخبرت بما قال جعفر ابن محمّد عليه‌السلام فقال : هو أولى باليهوديّة منكما ، إنّ اليهوديّ من شرب الخمر

[In al-Ihtijaj from ibn abi Ya`fur: I and Mu`alla bin Khunays both met Hasan (bin Hasan) bin Hasan bin `Ali, he shouted at me: "O Jew!" So I informed him of what Ja`far bin Muhammad (as) said, then he replied: "He (i.e Ja`far) is more of a Jew than both of you, a Jew who drinks wine!"] (Al-Ihtijaj 374, Risalah-fil-Tawarikh)

عن الصادق عليه‌السلام : لو توفّي الحسن بن الحسن بن عليّ على الزنا كان خيرا ممّا توفّي عليه

[Ja`far al-Sadiq (as) said: If Hasan (bin al-Hasan) bin al-Hasan bin `Ali died while committing adultery, it would have been better for him than his current death.] (Al-Ihtijaj 374, Risalah-fil-Tawarikh)

D- `Abdullah bin al-Hasan bin al-Hasan bin `Ali bin abi Talib


فعن الصادق عليه‌السلام قال : أما تعجبون من عبد الله؟ يزعم أنّ أباه عليّا عليه‌السلام لم يكن إماما

[From al-Sadiq (as): "Are you not astonished with `Abdullah's claim? He claims that his father `Ali (as) was never an Imam."] (Basa'ir al-Darajat 153, Risalah-fil-Tawarikh)

وفي خبر أنّ عبد الله قال للصادق عليه‌السلام إنّ الحسين عليه‌السلام كان ينبغي له إذا عدل أن يجعلها في الأسنّ من ولد الحسن عليه‌السلام

[In one narration, `Abdullah bin al-Hasan tells Ja`far bin Muhammad (as): "Upon his death, Husayn (as) should have returned the position of leadership to the eldest of al-Hasan's (as) children."] (Al-Kafi 1/359, Risalah-fil-Tawarikh)


E- Muhammad bin `Abdullah bin al-Hasan bin `Ali bin abi Talib

ففي خبر : أنّه أرسل إلى الصادق عليه‌السلام ليذهب إلى منزله فامتنع عليه‌السلام فضحك محمّد وقال : ما يمنعه من إتياني إلاّ أنّه ينظر في الصحف ، فقال عليه‌السلام إنّي أنظر في الصحف الاولى صحف إبراهيم وموسى فاسئل نفسك وأباك هل ذلك عندكما... إلخ

[In a narration, Muhammad bin `Abdullah sent after al-Sadiq (as) inviting him to his home but he declined so Muhammad laughed (mockingly) saying: "He doesn't wish to come because he's staring at those scrolls." Ja`far (as) replied: "I am looking at the ancient scrolls of Abraham and Moses. Ask yourself and your father (O Muhammad bin `Abdullah) do you possess such scrolls!?"] (Basa'ir al-Darajat 138, Risalah-fil-Tawarikh)

F- Al-Hasan bin Zayd bin al-Hasan bin `Ali bin abi Talib

فكان واليا من قبل العبّاسيّين كما كان أبوه من قبل الامويّين. وفي الخبر : أنّه لمّا كان من قبل المنصور على الحرمين كتب المنصور إليه : أن أحرق على جعفر بن محمّد داره ، ففعل فأخذت النار في الباب والدهليز فخرج الصادق عليه‌السلام يمشي في النار ويقول : أنا ابن إبراهيم خليل الله

[He was a governor for the `Abbasids just as his father was a governor for the Umayyads. In a narration where al-Mansur appoints him over the two sacred mosques, he writes him: "Burn Ja`far bin Muhammad's house." So al-Hasan did that and it burned down but al-Sadiq (as) walked out of the fire saying: "I am the son of God's most beloved, Abraham."] (Al-Manaqib 4/236, Risalah-fil-Tawarikh)

وفي خبر : أنّ رجلا قال للصادق عليه‌السلام : يعرف هذا ـ أي أمر إمامتهم عليهم‌السلام ـ ولد الحسن عليه‌السلام؟ فقال عليه‌السلام : كما يعرفون أنّ هذا ليل ، ولكن يحملهم الحسد ، ولو طلبوا الحقّ بالحقّ لكان خيرا لهم ، ولكنّهم يطلبون الدنيا

[And in a narration where a man asks al-Sadiq (as): "Do the children of al-Hasan (as) recognize your right of leadership?" He (as) replied: "Just as they know the darkness of the night. If they were after truth it would have been better for them but they're only after worldly matters."] (Al-Ihtijaj 374, Risalah-fil-Tawarikh)


3- Children of `Ali bin al-Husayn:


A- `Isa bin Zayd bin `Ali bin Husayn


روى الكافي خبرا في خروج محمّد بن عبد الله وإحضاره الصادق عليه‌السلام وأمره بحبسه ، فضحك أبوعبدالله عليه السلام، ثم قال: لا حول ولا قوة إلا بالله العلي العظيم أو تراك تسجنني؟ قال: نعم والذي أكرم محمدا صلى الله عليه وآله بالنبوة لاسجننك ولاشددن عليك، فقال عيسى بن زيد: احبسوه في المخبأ - وذلك دار ريطة اليوم - فقال له أبوعبدالله عليه السلام: أما والله إني سأقول ثم أصدق، فقال له عيسى ابن زيد لو تكلمت لكسرت فمك، فقال له أبوعبدالله عليه السلام: أما والله يا أكشف يا ازرق لكأني بك تطلب لنفسك جحرا تدخل فيه وما أنت في المذكورين عند اللقاء


[Narrated in al-Kafi that Muhammad bin `Abdullah (bin al-Hasan) rebelled then he brought al-Sadiq (as) and ordered that he be imprisoned. Ja`far (as) said: "No power except God's power! Do you really see yourself imprisoning me?" He said: "Yes, by He who bestowed prophet-hood on Muhammad (saw) I shall lock you up in a secure prison!" `Isa bin Zayd (bin `Ali) said: "Lock him up in the hideout." Aba `Abdillah (as) said: "By God, I will speak a word of truth!" `Isa bin Zayd said: "If you speak I shall break your jaw." Ja`far (as) said: "O weak coward, you will soon seek a small hole to hide but never find one. Your ending will be that of disappointment."] (Al-Kafi 1/363, Risalah-fil-Tawarikh)



B- Al-Hasan bin `Ali al-Asghar bin `Ali al-Sajjad bin Husayn (al-Aftas)


 ففي الخبر : أنّه حمل على الصادق عليه‌السلام بالشفرة قال ابن محبوب في حديثه حمل عليك بالشفرة يريد أن يقتلك


[In a narration, al-Hasan bin `Ali raised a knife against al-Sadiq (as)] (al-Kafi 7/55, Risalah-fil-Tawarikh)


C- Ja`far bin `Umar bin Husayn bin `Ali bin `Umar bin `Ali al-Sajjad bin Husayn


كان من عمّال بني العبّاس


[Was from the governors of banu al-`Abbas] (Risalah-fil-Tawarikh)


فما مضى إلاّ شهر أو نحوه حتّى ولي المدينة


[Al-Rida (as) prophesied that he'd become rich so a few months passed and he was appointed as governor of Madinah.] (`Uyun Akhbar al-Rida 2/208, Risalah-fil-Tawarikh)


4- Children of Ja`far bin Muhammad (al-Sadiq)



A- `Abdullah bin Ja`far al-Sadiq


إمام الفطحيّة. قال المفيد : كان يخالط الحشويّة ويميل إلى مذهب المرجئة ، وادّعى بعد أبيه الإمامة


[Leader of the Fathi Shia sect. Al-Mufid said: He used to spend time around the Hashawiyyah (Ahlul-Hadith) and leaned towards the Murji`ah (Sunnies). He claimed Imamah after his father.] (Al-Irshad 285, Risalah-fil-Tawarikh)


خرج ودعا بأمير المؤمنين ، فقال له الرضا عليه‌السلام لا تكذّب أباك ولا أخاك


[He rebelled and called himself chief of believers so al-Rida (as) rebuked him: "Do not belie your brother and father."] (Al-`Uyun 2/207, Risalah-fil-Tawarikh)


أيضا عنه عليه‌السلام قال : جعلت على نفسي ألاّ يظلّني وإيّاه سقف! قال عمر ابن يزيد : فقلت في نفسي : هذا يأمرنا بالبرّ والصلة ويقول هذا لعمّه


[Also narrated from al-Rida (as) that he told (his uncle) `Abdullah: "I made a promise that we shall never be under the same roof!" `Umar bin Yazid commented: "I said to myself: This man (i.e al-Rida) orders us to be good to our family then says such things to his own uncle."] (Al-`Uyun 2/204, Risalah-fil-Tawarikh)


وروى أنّه أيضا ممّن سعى بالكاظم عليه‌السلام إلى هارون


[It is also narrated that `Abdullah tried to get Musa al-Kadhim (as) to be taken to Caliph Harun] (Al-`Uyun 1/73, Risalah-fil-Tawarikh)


B- Muhammad bin Isma`il bin Ja`far & `Ali bin Isma`il bin Ja`far


أنّ الصادق عليه‌السلام قال لعبد الله الأفطح : إليك ابني أخيك فقد ملآني بالسفه ، فإنّهما شرك شيطان قلت : إنّما قال عليه‌السلام لعبد الله : « ابني أخيك » حيث إنّ إسماعيل كان أخا الأفطح لامّه


[Al-Sadiq (as) told his son `Abdullah: "Take your two nephews, they belittle me because they're products of a devil." I say: He described them as his nephews because Isma`il bin Ja`far and `Abdullah bin Ja`far were brothers from the same mother] (Kashshi 265, Risalah-fil-Tawarikh)


ثمّ إنّ أبا الفرج والمفيد والعيون رووا سعاية عليّ بن إسماعيل في قتل الكاظم عليه‌السلام والكليني والكشّي رويا سعاية محمّد بن إسماعيل


[Aba al-Faraj, al-Mufid and author of al-`Uyun all narrated how `Ali bin Isma`il tried to get al-Kadhim (as) killed. As for Kulayni and Kashshi, they narrated a similar attempt by Muhammad bin Isma`il] (Maqatil al-Talibiyin 334, Irshad 299, `Uyun 1/72, Kafi 1/485, Kashshi 264, Risalah-fil-Tawarikh)


5- Children of Musa bin Ja`far (al-Kadhim):



A- al-`Abbas bin Musa bin Ja`far bin Muhammad bin `Ali bin Husayn bin `ALi bin abi Talib


فحاكم أخاه الرضا عليه‌السلام إلى القاضي وواجهه بكلمات شديدة وفضّ وصيّة أبيه مع لعنه عليه‌السلام من فعل ذلك ، كما رواه الكليني في وصاياهم عليهم‌السلام


[Dragged his brother `Ali al-Rida to the judges and confronted him with the harshest words. He also broke his father's last will even though the Imams (as) cursed those that do so as recorded by Kulayni.] (Kafi 1/318, Risalah-fil-Tawarikh)


B- Zayd bin Musa bin Ja`far (al-Nar)


أنّ الرضا عليه‌السلام قال له في خبر : إن كنت ترى أنّك تعصي الله وتدخل الجنّة وموسى بن جعفر عليه‌السلام أطاع الله ودخل الجنّة فأنت إذا أكرم على الله من موسى بن جعفر ما نال أحد ما عند الله عزّ وجلّ إلاّ بطاعته ، وزعمت أنّك تناله بمعصيته ، فبئس ما زعمت! فقال له زيد : أنا أخوك وابن أبيك. فقال عليه‌السلام له : أنت أخي ما أطعت الله عزّ وجلّ ، إنّ نوحا قال : رَبِّ إِنَّ ابْنِي مِنْ أَهْلِي


[Al-Rida (as) told him:

[Rationalist]

You should write a book on the subject.

[iceman]

You should write a book on the subject.

Writing a book...... I would most definitely like to know how authentic is all this information.

[Hani]

You should write a book on the subject.

Writing a book...... I would most definitely like to know how authentic is all this information.

This is all historical, I wouldn't apply authenticity if I were you as then most of your evidences for `Ali's Imamah perish. It's all from Shia sources though and there is enough of this material to write a book but I don't have the time so let's keep it as a future article.

[Hani]

Thread's been updated, I wonder how long it'll take till this article is ready.

[iceman]

You should write a book on the subject.

Writing a book...... I would most definitely like to know how authentic is all this information.

This is all historical, I wouldn't apply authenticity if I were you as then most of your evidences for `Ali's Imamah perish. It's all from Shia sources though and there is enough of this material to write a book but I don't have the time so let's keep it as a future article.

Not just what you've put forward is historical but so is a lot of other stuff. It just depends on what suits you and what goes with your belief is what is accepted. Imamah and Ali being the Prophet's (s) successor is not acceptable due to arrogance and the fact that Saqifa falls. So therefore the foundation of your belief instantly collapse. Constant denial and continuous confrontational stance is what keeps you going. And if you do write a book then what are we supposed to think......that since you've written it so everything in that book must be a part of your belief?

[Rationalist]

You should write a book on the subject.

Writing a book...... I would most definitely like to know how authentic is all this information.

This is all historical, I wouldn't apply authenticity if I were you as then most of your evidences for `Ali's Imamah perish. It's all from Shia sources though and there is enough of this material to write a book but I don't have the time so let's keep it as a future article.

Its a very demanding subject. The reason is the saqifa back door trick is used to justify imamate of 12. If a book like this comes out than that card  will fail. Also if u need help I can give a hand.

[iceman]

You should write a book on the subject.

Writing a book...... I would most definitely like to know how authentic is all this information.

This is all historical, I wouldn't apply authenticity if I were you as then most of your evidences for `Ali's Imamah perish. It's all from Shia sources though and there is enough of this material to write a book but I don't have the time so let's keep it as a future article.

Its a very demanding subject. The reason is the saqifa back door trick is used to justify imamate of 12. If a book like this comes out than that card  will fail. Also if u need help I can give a hand.

Saqifa has no legitimacy. It wasn't conducted justly, fairly and properly. It's got nothing to do with Qoran and Sunah. It was something that shouldn't have happened and the Shaykhain ran there to prevent it. One thing led to another and the Ansaar eventually gave in otherwise there would have been violence and civil war would have broke out. The decision made was in coincidental and hasty. And that's just about it. No trick or treat but just reality and facts. Anyways bring out the book and lets see what you can achieve.

[MuslimK]

Thread's been updated, I wonder how long it'll take till this article is ready.

Masha'Allah! Very interesting topic.

[Rationalist]

You should write a book on the subject.

Writing a book...... I would most definitely like to know how authentic is all this information.

This is all historical, I wouldn't apply authenticity if I were you as then most of your evidences for `Ali's Imamah perish. It's all from Shia sources though and there is enough of this material to write a book but I don't have the time so let's keep it as a future article.

Its a very demanding subject. The reason is the saqifa back door trick is used to justify imamate of 12. If a book like this comes out than that card  will fail. Also if u need help I can give a hand.

Saqifa has no legitimacy. It wasn't conducted justly, fairly and properly. It's got nothing to do with Qoran and Sunah. It was something that shouldn't have happened and the Shaykhain ran there to prevent it. One thing led to another and the Ansaar eventually gave in otherwise there would have been violence and civil war would have broke out. The decision made was in coincidental and hasty. And that's just about it. No trick or treat but just reality and facts. Anyways bring out the book and lets see what you can achieve.

I totally agree with you. However just because Saqifa was wrong that doesn't automatically mean that there are 12 divinely appointed Imams chosen to rule over the ummah. The reality is you use the wrong of saqifa to convince others about  the so called divinely appointment of 12. The reality the imams you number 1-12 did not tell the entire ummah anything about this concept. So even the 12 imams concept is biddah and has nothing to do with the Quran and Sunnah.