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Possible Ex-Shia in the making

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Qamar Farooq

Possible Ex-Shia in the making
« on: September 09, 2019, 06:52:24 AM »
This sister posted the following comment in the comments section of the 'Message from EX SHIA Sister [Emotional]' video. May Allah guide this sister. If she has any questions and is reading this thread, than you may ask any questions until your heart is content.

"
Somebody

Hello to the brothers at Sunni defense, I’m a female Shia. I’ve been following your channel and your website for a couple of months now, and it’s opened my eyes to many things I hadn’t taken notice of before. I do agree with most of the things you say, to the extent where I could be branded an ex shia, though I’m not sure if I’m ready to come to any conclusions. However, there are still many things I don’t know and many questions I can’t answer, and the few members of my family who know I’m researching Shiaiism and Sunnism are pressuring me and creating doubts in my mind, constantly making claims about this Sunni hadith and that Sunni hadith. It’s well frustrating. I was wondering if I could get your email and ask my questions? I need some help since I don’t have access to any sources, and am very naive at searching them for answers anyway! It’d be much appreciated.
"

Somebody

Re: Possible Ex-Shia in the making
« Reply #1 on: September 09, 2019, 08:11:55 PM »
This sister posted the following comment in the comments section of the 'Message from EX SHIA Sister [Emotional]' video. May Allah guide this sister. If she has any questions and is reading this thread, than you may ask any questions until your heart is content.

"
Somebody

Hello to the brothers at Sunni defense, I’m a female Shia. I’ve been following your channel and your website for a couple of months now, and it’s opened my eyes to many things I hadn’t taken notice of before. I do agree with most of the things you say, to the extent where I could be branded an ex shia, though I’m not sure if I’m ready to come to any conclusions. However, there are still many things I don’t know and many questions I can’t answer, and the few members of my family who know I’m researching Shiaiism and Sunnism are pressuring me and creating doubts in my mind, constantly making claims about this Sunni hadith and that Sunni hadith. It’s well frustrating. I was wondering if I could get your email and ask my questions? I need some help since I don’t have access to any sources, and am very naive at searching them for answers anyway! It’d be much appreciated.
"
Hello, I’m the sister who posted the comment. Firstly I thank you for giving me your time, may Allah bless you for your efforts to spread what you believe is the truth.
Before I ask my questions, I must admit that some of them are going to be a bit petty and seemingly unimportant. That’s because most of my research has been focused on major issues such as Imamah, and now I’m going deeper, or rather, my family’s pushing me deeper by quoting weird Sunni narrations and making allegations against Sunni scholars and so on and so forth.
I guess I’ll just list my questions then
1) What exactly is the Sunni position regarding Mu’awiayah? Was he wicked, was he good, or a mix of both? If he was good why did he appoint his own son as his successor and turn the Islamic Khalifate into a monarchy? And is it true that such hadiths have been narrated about him by Abu Huraira: That Prophet would feed Mu’awiayah by his own hand, none curses Mu’awiayah but the dwellers of hell, that his chest was filled with faith and knowledge after the Prophet prayed for him? http://lib.eshia.ir/22014/59/89/دخلت
(This is the source I was provided with. I have no idea whether the book is reliable or whether it is the correct narration at all)
2) what is the Sunni position regarding Yazid? I’ve heard some Sunnis condemn him, and I’ve heard some like Zakir Naik refer to his name followed by رضي الله عنه. Is he responsible for the martyrdom of Husain? I’m not sure if I know anything at this point haha

I have many more questions, which I will ask after you reply to these inshallah.

Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: Possible Ex-Shia in the making
« Reply #2 on: September 09, 2019, 08:38:13 PM »
was he good
Welcome Sister.

Before we answer your questions in a Satisfactory manner, I would like to ask a question.

How do you define good? Is a good person in your view someone who is infallible and never committed any Sin ? Or Good in your view is someone who commits sins due to human nature yet he reverts back to Allah and asks for forgiveness. Is such a person Good in your view?

MuslimK

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Re: Possible Ex-Shia in the making
« Reply #3 on: September 09, 2019, 11:00:09 PM »
Hello, I’m the sister who posted the comment. Firstly I thank you for giving me your time, may Allah bless you for your efforts to spread what you believe is the truth.
Before I ask my questions, I must admit that some of them are going to be a bit petty and seemingly unimportant. That’s because most of my research has been focused on major issues such as Imamah, and now I’m going deeper, or rather, my family’s pushing me deeper by quoting weird Sunni narrations and making allegations against Sunni scholars and so on and so forth.

Salam Alaikum,

Welcome to the forum sister.

I will just quickly reply to your second point for now:

Quote
2) what is the Sunni position regarding Yazid? I’ve heard some Sunnis condemn him, and I’ve heard some like Zakir Naik refer to his name followed by رضي الله عنه. Is he responsible for the martyrdom of Husain? I’m not sure if I know anything at this point haha

Overall and majority Sunni position is that he is CONDEMNED. Therefore, you will find majority of Sunni scholarship condemn him. Yazid's crime is not just the martyrdom of Hussain (ra) but he also committed other crimes such as the incident near Madina where his forces killed many people.

Hussain was killed by the governor who was appointed by Yazid. He didn't even punish him afterwards or any other people involved. Therefore, he was also responsible.
در خلافت میل نیست ای بی‌خبر
میل کی آید ز بوبکر و عمر
میل اگر بودی در آن دو مقتدا
هر دو کردندی پسر را پیشوا

عطار نِیشابوری

www.Nahjul-Balagha.net | www.TwelverShia.net | www.ghadirkhumm.com

Qamar Farooq

Re: Possible Ex-Shia in the making
« Reply #4 on: September 10, 2019, 07:43:51 AM »
Also sister, i find that in the heat of Sunni-Shia discussions, sometimes we loose sight of the most important thing there is, which is AUTHENTICATING sources. The common Shia slogan against Ahlus Sunnah that you hear is that "we shias follow Ahlul Bayt, and you dont, therefore you are evil".

(1) Firstly, this is a fallacy called the fallacy of false dichotomy. There is nothing in the Quran or the Sunnah that says that you shoud ONLY take knowledege from Ahlul Bayt. We have narrations from Ahlul Bayt and also from other sahabas as well(by that i mean AUTHENTIC narration, not made up nonsense). There is an EXCELLENT article on on this topic (https://youpuncturedtheark.wordpress.com/2011/04/27/narrations-from-ahl-albayt-present-in-books-the-main-books-of-ahlesunnah/) which i highly recommend you read. The author did an analysis on the number of narration from Ahlul Bayt(provided they are athentic) in Sunni books, and the results are quite interesting. Some snippets from the article are quoted below

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"
Muhammad Al baqir(ra)

Narration of Imam Muhammad Abi Jafar Al-Baqir (ra), according to the AhleSunnah a reliable greats scholar of the Salaf from Ahl Al bait, accrding to the Imamites, the “5th infallible” Imam.

There are 240 narrations in the kuttub-tis’a (nine major books of the sunnah)

To make it clearer let us compare his narrations to those of Abu Bakr Al Siddiq(ra):

Al-Baqirs narrations in Sahih of Muslim = 19
Abu Bakrs narrations in Sahih of Muslim = 9

Al-Baqirs narrations in Sunan of Al-Nisai = 56
Abu Bakrs narrations in Sunan of Al-Nisai = 22

Al-Baqirs narrations in Sunan of Abi Dawud = 7
Abu Bakrs narrations in Sunan of Abi Dawud = 11

Al-Baqirs narrations in Sunan of Al-Tirmidhi = 23
Abu Bakrs narrations inSunan of Al-Tirmidhi = 22

Al-Baqirs narrations in Sunan of Ibni Majah = 24
Abu Bakrs narrations in Sunan of Ibni Majah = 16

To make it even clearer let us tell you the number of ALL the narrations by Abu Bakr in the SIX (kutub sitta) books of Ahadith with those of Al Baqir:
Al-Baqir = 229
Abu Bakr = 210
"

"
Jafar bin Muhammad(ra)

Narration of Imam Jafar bin Muhammad Abi Abdallah Al-Sadiq (ra) according to AhleSunnah a reliable great scholar of the Salaf from Ahl Al bait, According to the Imamites, the “6th infallible” Imam.

His narrations in the books of the Ahle sunnah:

Sahih of Muslim: (17) Ahadith via Imam Al-Sadiq and only (9) via Abu Bakr.
Sunan of Abi Dawud: (11) via Al-Sadiq and (11) via Abu Bakr and (15) via Othman.

Sunan of Al-Tirmidhi: (20) via Al-Sadiq and only (22) via Abu Bakr and (19) via Othman.
Sunan of Al-Nisai: (44) Ahadith via Al-Sadiq and only (22) via Abu Bakr and (27) via Othman

Sunan of Ibn Majah: 19 via Al-Sadiq and 16 via Abu Bakr.

Note: In the Main(9) books of ahlul Sunnah Imam Ja’afar al Sadiq RAA narrated 2032 Hadiths
"

"
Zayn Al Abidin(ra)

Narrations of Imam Ali Ibnu Al-Hussayn Zayn Al-Abidin Al-Sajjad (ra), according to the AhleSunnah a reliable great scholar of the Salaf from Ahl Al Bait, and according to the Imamite the “4th Infallible” Imam.

Sahih Al-Bukhari: (25) narrations via Zayn Al-Abdidin and (25) narration via Khalifatu-Rasulullah Othman bin Affaan.

Sahih Muslim: (15) narrations via Zayn Al-Abidin and only (9) via Abu Bakr(first caliph).

Abu Dawud: (11) via Zayn Al-Abidin, (11) via Abu Bakr(first caliph).
"

"
Who narrated greater number of narrations from Hassan(ra) and Hussain(ra)?

Narrations from Hassan(ra) and Hussain(ra) in shia book:

Narration from Al Hussein (ra) in Al-Kafi: There is exactly ONE narration by Al Hussein and one By Al Hassan

Narrations from Hassan(ra) and Hussain(ra) in Sunni books:

Narration from Al Hussein (ra) in the Sahihayn: There are four narrations from Al Hussein in the Sahihayn. And it is not just random story, rather Hussein narrates from ALI (no. 1127 in the book of the five wajibat, no.3091), same in Sahih Muslim. (Remember there is ONE narration of Al Hussein in AL Kafi)
"

"
Who narrated greater number of narrations from Fatima(ra)?

Narrations from Fatima(ra) in shia book:

Narrations of Fatimah Bint Muhammad(ra): In Al-Kafi there are, or shall we say there IS exactly ZERO (0) narration in Al-Kafi! Keep in mind: Al Kafi contains more narration than Al Bukhari and Muslim altogether it has NINE volumes, yet there is not one narration in the shia book.

Narrations from Fatima(ra) in Sunni books:

Narrations of Fatimah Bint Muhammad(ra) in the sahihayn: In Sahih Al-Bukhari, there is one narration(No. 4462) from Fatimah (ra).
"

"
Who narrated greater number of narrations from Ali(ra)?

Narrations from Ali(ra) in shia book:

The narrations of the commander of the faithful, Ali Ibn Abi Talib (ra) in Al kafi: In Al-Kafi (as we said it contains more narrations than Bukhari and Muslim altogether), there are 66 narration from Ali only! (and since according to some shias 2/3 of Kafi is weak so Allah knows how many among the 66 are true!)

Narrations from Ali(ra) in authentic books of Ahlesunnah:

The narrations of the commander of the faithful, Ali Ibn Abi Talib (ra) in the two Sahihs: Ali Ibn Abi Talib narrated (more than Abu Bakr and Othman altogether, though Omar might have one narration more) 98 narrations, including repetitions, without repetitions 34. So basically he narrated 72 narrations (Fiqh etc.) in the two most authentic books of AhleSunnah (remember he narrated in the shia book Alkafi which contains more narrations than bukhari and muslim altogether only 66 narrations!). He narrated more than Abu Bakr(ra) AND Othman(ra) in the two sahihs.

Note: 8 Books of Ahl Al-Sunnah[bukhari, sahih muslim, sunan al tirmidhi, sunan al nasaai, sunan Abi dawood, ibn maajah, musnad ahmad and musnad al daarimi] have 1583 narrations narrated by ALI IBN ABI TALIB (ra). After all of that, who dares to claim that the Ahl Al-Sunnah are “followers of Bani Umayyah”? Did the Umavid Caliphs felt asleep and didn’t recognize over 1500 narrations narrated by the one they hated so much?.
"

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(2) Secondly, even if i were to give it to you that we should take knowledege ONLY from Ahlul Bayt, the next question that logically follows is, who are the people narrating content from the Ahlul Bayt in shia books? are they reliable trust worthy narrators? the answer is a RESOUNDING NO. The Quran clearly says 49:6 (Yusuf Ali) "O ye who believe! If a wicked person comes to you with any news, ascertain the truth, lest ye harm people unwittingly, and afterwards become full of repentance for what ye have done.". This is the biggest blunder that shias have fallen into. They have taken information from totally unreliable people who attributed absolute lies and garbage to the Ahlul Bayt and RASIED them above their station. This is EXACTLY what happened with the christians. The christians took knowledge from unknown idiots like the liar Pual, and the 4 gospel writers and they turned Jesus(pbuh) from a prophet to God himself. What is the proof? The sunni defense have written two EXCELLENT articles on this topic (http://www.twelvershia.net/2019/03/24/liars-weak-transmitters-endorsed-by-the-shia/ | http://www.twelvershia.net/2019/01/20/10-reasons-why-you-should-not-trust-shia-hadith-sources/). Do read them if you get the time, but the jist of the article can be summarized as  follows. There are a number of people who narrate content in both shia books and sunni books. You could call them common links. What is REALLY INTERESTING is that when sunni muhadithun talk about them, they say that these people are liars and weak transmitters, yet Shia muhadithun, say that these people are reliable. Obvi they cant both be right, there is a huge problem here. Below is the list of these people, and what muhadithun from each school say about each person.

1. ‘Abbad b. Suhayb Al-Kulaybi Al-Basri
Sunni Authorities:    (Lisan Al-Mizan 4/390)
Ibn Al-Madini (d. 234): “His hadith has been ejected.”
Al-Bukhari (d. 256), Al-Nasa’i (d. 303) and others said: “He is abandoned (matruk).”
Ibn Hibban (d. 354): “He was a Qadari propagator. With that being said, he also transmitted things, which even a beginner in hadith would attest to its fabrication.” He then listed a few of his fabrications.

Shi’ite Authorities:    (Mo’jam Rijal Al-Hadith 10/232)
Al-Najashi (d. 450): “A reliable Basran.”
Al-Barqi (274): “He is a Kufan ‘Ammi (Sunni).”

2. Aban b. ‘Uthman Al-Ahmar
Sunni Authorities:    (Lisan Al-Mizan 1/226
Al-‘Uqayli (d. 322) weakened him.
Ibn Hibban (d. 354): “He errs in transmission and makes delusions in transmission.”

Shi’ite Authorities:   (Mo’jam Rijal Al-Hadith  1/146)
Al-Kashi (d. 350): “The sect has agreed upon the authentication of everything that is authentic to them, and believing them in what they say.’  He then listed six transmitters, one of them being Aban b. ‘Uthman.

3. ‘Abbas b. ‘Umar Al-Kaludhani
Sunni Authorities:    (Tarikh Baghdad 14/57)
Al-Khatib Al-Baghdadi (d. 463): “I wrote hadith from him, and he was a Rafidi. He was unreliable in hadith. He gave me a book of hadith which he claimed to have heard from his father’s uncle, from Humayd b. Al-Rabi’, Al-Hasan b. ‘Arafah and similar transmitters. I copied several papers from it, but it then became apparent to me, so I returned the book to him. I then tore what I had copied from it. Near the end of his life, Al-‘Abbas claimed to have heard hadith from the qadhi, Abu ‘Abdillah Al-Mahamili. He went to the disapproved reports Ibn ‘Uqdah had transmitted in the fada’il, and he then ascribed them to Al-Mahamili and transmitted them from him.”

Shi’ite Authorities:    (Mo’jam Rijal Al-Hadith 10/256)
Al-Khoei (d. 1413): “He is reliable because he is from the teachers of Al-Najashi (d. 450).”

4. ‘Abdul’A’la b. A’yan Al-Kufi
Sunni Authorities:    (Tahdhib Al-Tahdhib 6/93)
Al-‘Uqayli (d. 322): “He transmitted disapproved things, none of which are confirmed.”
Ibn Hibban (d. 354): “It is not permissible to rely upon him. He is disapproved (munkar).”
Al-Daraqutni (d. 385): “He is not reliable.”
Abu Nu’aym Al-Asbahani (d. 430): “He transmitted disapproved reports from Yahya b. Abi Kathir. He transmitted from ‘Ubaydillah b. Musa. He is worthless.”

Shi’ite Authorities:    (Mo’jam Rijal Al-Hadith 10/276)
Al-Mufid (d. 413) endorsed his reliability.

5. ‘Abdulghaffar b. Al-Qassem Al-Ansari, Abu Maryam
Sunni Authorities:    (Lisan Al-Mizan 5/226-228)
Yahya b. Ma’in (d. 233): “He’s worthless.”
Ibn Al-Madini (d. 234): “He used to fabricate hadiths.”
Ahmed b. Hanbal (d. 241): “He used to transmit blunders regarding ‘Uthman. Most of his hadiths are lies.”
Al-Bukhari (d. 256): “He is not strong according to them.”
Abu Dawud (d. 275) quoted a few critics accusing him of forgery. Then, Abu Dawud said: “And I bear witness that Abu Maryam is a liar, for I have met him and heard from him. His name is ‘Abdulghaffar b. Al-Qassem.”
Abu Hatem (d. 277) and Al-Nasa’i (d. 303) said: “He is abandoned (matruk).”
Al-Saji (d. 307), Al-‘Uqayli (d. 307), and Ibn Al-Jarud (d. 307) weakened him.
Al-Daraqutni (d. 385): “He is abandoned (matruk), and he is the sheikh of Shu’bah. Shu’bah praised him, but his true status did not become apparent to him. He lived after Shu’bah transmitting distorted content.”

Shi’ite Authorities:    (Mo’jam Rijal Al-Hadith 11/60)
Al-Najashi (d. 450): “He is reliable.”
The Sunni critic, Ibn ‘Adiyy, said: “I heard Ibn ‘Uqdah praise Abu Maryam, complement him and exaggerate in his status.” Ibn ‘Adiyy then said: “Ibn ‘Uqdah [d. 322] merely leaned towards him in this manner due to his extremism in Shi’ism.” (Lisan Al-Mizan 5/228)

6. ‘Abdullah b. Maymun Al-Qaddah Al-Makhzumi
Sunni Authorities:    (Tahdib Al-Tahdhib 6/49)
Al-Bukhari (d. 256): “He is ejected in hadith.”
Abu Zur’ah (d. 264): “He is extremely weak in hadith.”
Abu Hatem (d. 277) and Al-Tirmidhi (d. 279) said: “He is disapproved (munkar) in hadith.”
Al-Nasa’i (d. 303): “He is weak.”
Ibn Hibban (d. 354): “He transmits blunderous reports from reliable transmitters. He cannot be relied upon whenever he exclusively transmits a report.”
Ibn ‘Adiyy (d. 365): “Most of what he transmits is not is not corroborated.”
Al-Hakem (d. 405): “He transmitted fabricated reports from ‘Ubaydillah from Ibn ‘Umar.”
Abu Nu’aym (d. 430): “He trnasmitted disapproved reports (manakir).”

Shi’ite Authorities:    (Mo’jam Rijal Al-Hadith 11/378)
Al-Najashi (d. 450): “He was reliable.”

7. ‘AbdulMu’min b. Al-Qassem Al-Ansari
Sunni Authorities:    (Lisan Al-Mizan 5/284)
Al-‘Uqayli (d. 322): “A Shi’ite who is not corroborated in most of his transmission.”

Shi’ite Authorities:    (Mo’jam Rijal Al-Hadith 12/11)
Al-Najashi (d. 450): “He is reliable, him and his brother.

8. ‘Abdurrahman b. Muhammad Al-‘Irzami
Sunni Authorities:    (Lisan Al-Mizan 5/124)
Abu Hatem Al-Razi (d. 277): “He is not strong.”
Ibn Hibban (d. 354): “His transmission can be cited as a corroboration as long as he does not transmit from his father.”
Al-Daraqutni (d. 385) weakened him.

Shi’ite Authorities:    (Mo’jam Rijal Al-Hadith 10/379)
Al-Najashi (d. 450): “He is reliable.”

9. Ahmed b. ‘Ali b. Mahdi b. Sadaqah
Sunni Authorities:    (Lisan Al-Mizan 1/539)
Al-Daraqutni (d. 385) accused him of fabricating hadiths.
Ibn Taher Al-Maqdisi (d. 507): “He transmitted a fabricated trasncription from his father, from ‘Ali b. Musa Al-Rida, and it contains reports he had stolen.” (Ibn Al-Jawzi 1/81)

Shi’ite Authorities:   (Al-Mufid min Mo’jam Rijal Al-Hadith 35)
Al-Jawaheri: “He is the teacher of Ibn Qulawayh [d. 368] in Kamlil Al-Ziyarat; therefore, he is reliable.”

10. Ahmed b. Maytham b. Abi Nu’aym
Sunni Authorities:    (Lisan Al-Mizan 1/682)
Ibn Hibban (d. 354): “He transmitted distorted reports” and “he transmitted disapproved reports from ‘Ali b. Qadim”.
Al-Daraqutni (d. 385) weakened him.

Shi’ite Authorities:    (Mo’jam Rijal Al-Hadith 3/140-141)
Al-Najashi (d. 450): “He was among the reliable transmitters of our Kufan companions and their jurists. He authored books, none of which I have seen.”
Al-Tusi (d. 460): “He was among the reliable transmitters of our Kufan companions and their jurists. He has several works etc.”

11. ‘Amr b. Khaled Al-Wasiti
Sunni Authorities:   (Tahdhib Al-Tahdhib 8/26-27)
Waki’ b. Al-Jarrah (d. 196): “He used to be our neighbor. When we exposed him for his lies, he moved to Wasit.”
Yahya b. Ma’in (d. 233): “He is a liar. He is not reliable nor is he trustworthy.”
Ishaq b. Rahuyah (d. 238) and Abu Zur’ah (d. 265): “He used to fabricate hadiths.”
Ahmed b. Hanbal (d. 241): “He is abandoned in hadith. He is worthless.” Al-Athram also quoted Ahmed saying: “He is a liar. He transmits fabricated reports from Zayd b. ‘Ali, from his fathers.”
Ibn Al-Barqi (d. 249) accused him of forgery.
Al-Bukhari (d. 256): “He is disapproved in hadith.”
Al-Jawzajani (d. 259): “He is not reliable.”
Abu Dawud (d. 275): “He is a liar.”
Abu Hatem Al-Razi (d. 277): “He is abandoned in hadith, ejected in hadith. He should not be worked with.”
Al-Nasa’i (d. 303): “He is not reliable, and his hadith should not be written.”
Ibn Sa’id (d. 318): “His hadith should not be written.”
Al-Daraqutni (d. 385): “He is abandoned (matruk).”
Al-Hakem (d. 405): “He transmits fabricated reports from Zaid b. ‘Ali.”
Abu Nu’aym (d. 430): “He is worthless.”

Shi’ite Authorities:   (Mo’jam Rijal Al-Hadith 14/103)
Ibn Faddal (d. 224) endorsed his reliability.

12. ‘Amr b. ‘Uthman Al-Thaqafi
Sunni Authorities:   (Lisan Al-Mizan 6/218)
Al-‘Uqayli (d. 322): “There is delusion in his transmission. He is not corroborated in it.”

Shi’ite Authorities:   (Mo’jam Rijal Al-Hadith 14/128)
Al-Najashi (d. 450): “A reliable Kufan.”

13. Al-Hareth b. ‘Imran Al-Ja’fari
Sunni Authorities:    (Tahdhib Al-Tahdhib 2/152)
Abu Zur’ah Al-Razi (d. 264): “He is weak in hadith, extremely weak.”
Abu Hatem Al-Razi (d. 277): “He is not strong in hadith.”
Ibn Hibban (d. 354): “He fabricates reports and ascribes them to reliable transmitters.”
Ibn ‘Adiyy (d.365): “Al-Hareth has other reports he transmitted from Ja’far b. Muhammad, none of which are corroborated by reliable transmitters. The weakness is apparent in his reports.”
Al-Daraqutni (d. 385): “He is abandoned (matruk).”

Shi’ite Authorities:    (Mo’jam Rijal Al-Hadith 5/176)
Al-Najashi (d. 450): “A reliable Kufan transmitter.”

14. Al-Hussain b. ‘Ulwan Al-Kalbi
Sunni Authorities:    (Lisan Al-Mizan 3/189-191)
Yahya b. Ma’in (d. 233): “He is a liar.”
‘Ali b. AL-Madini (d. 234): “He is very weak.”
Mahmud b. Ghaylan (d. 239): “Ahmed b. Hanbal, Ibn Ma’in, and Abu Khaythamah ejected his hadith.”
Muhammad b. ‘Abdurrahim Sa’iqah (d. 255): “Ibn ‘Ulwan used to transmit fabricated reports from Hisham and Ibn ‘Ajlan.”
Abu Hatem (d. 277) and Al-Daraqutni (d. 385) said: “He is abandoned (matruk).”
Saleh Jazarah (d. 293): “He used to fabricate reports.”
Al-Nasa’i (d. 303): “He is extremely weak, weak and abandoned in hadith.”
Ibn Abi Hatem (d. 327): “He is a liar.”
Ibn Hibban (d. 354): “He used to fabricate reports and ascribe them to Hisham and others in a manner that makes it impermissible to write his hadith except in the context of amazement.” Ibn Hibban then listed several of his forgeries.

Shi’ite Authorities:    (Mo’jam Rijal Al-Hadith 5/376)
Al-Najashi (d. 450): “A Kufan ‘Ammi (Sunni). His brother, Al-Hassan, who is nicknamed Abu Muhammad, is of greater proximity to us. He is a reliable transmitter.”
Ibn ‘Uqdah (d. 332) allegedly endorsed him as well.

15. ‘Asem b. Sulayman Al-Kuzi
Sunni Authorities:    (Lisan Al-Mizan 4/368-370)
Abu Dawud Al-Tayalisi (d. 204): “He is a liar.”
Al-Fallas (d. 249): “He used to fabricate hadiths. I have never seen anyone like him.” Al-Fallas then listed several of his fabrications.
Abu Hatem Al-Razi (d. 277) and Al-Nasa’i (d. 303) said: “He is abandoned (matruk).”
Al-Saji (d. 307): “An abandoned transmitter who fabricates hadiths.”
Al-‘Uqayli (d. 322): “His transmission has been overwhelmed by delusion.”
Ibn Hibban (d. 354): “It is not permissible to write his hadiths except in the context of amazement.” He then listed several fabrications of his.
Ibn ‘Adiyy (d. 365): “He is among those who fabricate hadiths.”
Al-Daraqutni (d. 385): “He is a liar.”

Shi’ite Authorities:    (Mo’jam Rijal Al-Hadith 10/201)
Al-Najashi (d. 450): “A reliable transmitter.”

16. Asram b. Hawshab
Sunni Authorities:    (Lisan Al-Mizan 2/210-212)
Yahya b. Ma’in (d. 233) said: “He was a vile liar.”
Ibn Al-Madini (d. 234) said: “I wrote hadith from him in Hamadhan, and I then ejected it.”
Al-Fallas (d. 249) said: “An abandoned transmitter who espoused irjaa’.”
Al-Bukhari (d. 256), Muslim (d. 261), and Al-Nasa’i (d. 303) said: “He is abandoned (matruk).”
Al-Jawzajani (d. 259) said: “I wrote hadith from him in Hamadhan in 230, and he was weak.”
Abu Hatem Al-Razi (d. 277) said: “He is abandoned (matruk) in hadith. He claimed to have heard hadith from Ziyad b. Sa’d, so he was condemned. Yahya b. Ma’in criticized him.”
Ibn Hibban (d. 354) said: “He fabricates reports and ascribes them to reliable transmitters.”
Al-Daraqutni (d. 385) said: “He is disapproved (munkar) in hadith.”
Al-Hakem(d. 405) and Al-Naqqash (d. 414) said: “He transmits fabricated reports.”
Al-Khalili (d. 446) said: “He transmitted disapproved reports from Nahshal, from Al-Dahhak, from Ibn ‘Abbas. The imams initially transmitted hadith from him, but they then recognized his weakness, so they abandoned him.”

Shi’ite Authorities:    (Mo’jam Rijal Al-Hadith 4/136)
Al-Najashi (d. 450) said: “A  reliable ‘Ammi (Sunni) transmitter. He transmitted a transcription from Abu ‘Abdillah.”

17. Hammad b. ‘Isa Al-Juhani
Sunni Authorities:    (Tahdhib Al-Tahdhib 3/19)
Ibn Ma’in (d. 233): “A pious sheikh.”
Abu Hatem (d. 277): “He is weak in hadith.”
Abu Dawud (d. 275): “He is weak; he transmitted disapproved reports.”
Ibn Hibban (d. 354): “He transmits distorted things from Ibn Jurayj and ‘Abdulaziz b. ‘Umar b. ‘Abdulaziz which any expert in hadith would assume are fabricated. He cannot be relied upon.”
Al-Daraqutni (d. 385) weakened him.
Al-Hakem (d. 404) and Al-Naqqash (d. 414): “He transmitted fabricated reports from Ibn Jurayj and Ja’far Al-Sadeq.”
Ibn Makula (d. 475): “They weakened his hadith.”

Shi’ite Authorities:    (Mo’jam Rijal Al-Hadith 7/236-239)
Al-Kashi (d. 350): “The sect has unanimously agreed upon authenticating what is authentic to them, and they believe them in what they say.” He then mentioned Hammad among them.
Al-Najashi (d. 450): “He was reliable in his hadith, truthful.”
Al-Tusi (d. 460): “He is reliable.”

18. Harun b. Al-Jahm b. Thuwayr
Sunni Authorities:    (Lisan Al-Mizan 8/303)
Al-‘Uqayli (d. 322): “He conflicts with others in his transmission, and he is not well known for the transmission of hadith.”

Shi’ite Authorities:    (Mo’jam Rijal Al-Hadith 20/241)
Al-Najashi (d. 450): “A reliable Kufan.”

19. Ishaq b. Bishr, Abu Hudhayfah
Sunni Authorities:    (Lisan Al-Mizan 2/44-46)
Ibn Al-Madini (d. 234) accused him of forgery.
Abu Bakr b. Abi Shaybah (d. 235): “He is a liar.”
Ishaq Al-Kawsaj (d. 251): “Abu Hudhayfah once visited us, and he transmitted from Ibn Tawus and other major tabi’in who had died prior to Humayd Al-Tawil.” We asked him: “Have you written hadith from Humayd Al-Tawil?” He became anxious and said: “Have you come here to mock me?! My grandfather never saw Humayd!”  We then told him: “You are transmitting reports from transmitters who died before Humayd!” We then recognized his weakness and that he did not understand what he was saying.
Muslim (d. 261): “The people have abandoned his hadith.”
Al-‘Uqayli (d. 322): “An unknown transmitter who transmitted disapproved reports that have no basis.”
Ibn Hibban (d. 354): “It is not permissible to write his hadith except in the context of amazement.”
Ibn ‘Adiyy (d. 365): “His hadiths are disapproved, either in their isnad or in their matn, no one corroborates him in any of them.”
Al-Azdi (d. 374): “An abandoned and debased transmitter who was accused of forgery.”
Al-Daraqutni (d. 385): “An abandoned liar.”
Al-Naqqash (d. 414): ‘He fabricates hadith.”
Al-Khalili (d. 446): “He was accused of fabricating reports.”
Al-Khatib (d. 464): “He was not reliable.”

Shi’ite Authorities:   (Mo’jam Rijal Al-hadith 3/198)
Al-Najashi (d. 450): “He is reliable. He transmitted from Abu ‘Abdillah (as). He is from the Ammah (A Sunni).”

20. Isma’il b. Abi Ziyad Al-Sukuni
Sunni Authorities:    (Lisan Al-Mizan 2/126-127)
Yahya b. Ma’in (d. 233): “He is a liar.”
Abu Hatem (d. 277): “He is unknown.”
Al-Azdi (d. 377): “He is a vile liar.”

Shi’ite Authorities:    (Mo’jam Rijal Al-hadith 4/21-22)
Al-Barqi (d. 274): “A Kufan. The name of Abu Ziyad is Muslim. He transmitted hadith from the ‘Awamm (Sunnis).”
Al-Tusi (d. 460) stated that the sect has acted upon his transmission. Al-Khoei thus concluded that he was reliable.
Al-Hilli (d. 726): “He was a ‘Ammi (Sunni).”

21. Lut b. Yahya, Abu Mikhnaf
Sunni Authorities:   (Lisan Al-Mizan 6/430)
Ibn Ma’in (d. 233): “He is not reliable.”
Abu Hatem (d. 277) and others abandoned his transmission.
Al-‘Uqayli (d. 322) weakened him.
Ibn ‘Adiyy (d. 365): “A flaming Shi’ite who is the transmitter of their reports.”
Al-Daraqutni (d. 385): “He is weak.”

Shi’ite Authorities:   (Mo’jam Rijal Al-hadith 15/140)
Al-Najashi (d. 450): “He was trusted in what he transmitted.”

22. Ma’tab, the Mawla of Ja’far
Sunni Authorities:    (Lisan Al-Mizan 8/105, 127)
Yahya b Ma’in (d. 233): “If reliable transmitters transmit hadith from Ja’far Al-Sadiq, then his [Ja’far’s] hadith is steadfast; but if the likes of Ma’tab and Hammad b. ‘Isa transmit from him, then it is worthless.”
Al-Saji (d. 307) weakened him.
Al-Azdi (d. 374): “He is a liar. It is said that his name was Mughith. He has a false hadith.”

Shi’ite Authorities:    (Mo’jam Rijal Al-Hadith 19/248)
Al-Tusi (d. 460): “He is a a reliable transmitter.”

23. Muhammad b. Al-Qassem b. Zakariyya Al-Muharibi
Sunni Authorities:    (Lisan Al-Mizan 7/449)
Abu Al-Hassan b. Hammad (d. 384): “He used believe in the raj’ah, and he never had an Asl (notes) to be seen. He transmitted Kitab Al-Nahr from Hussain b. Nasr b. Muzahem, while not having heard it.”

Shi’ite Authorities:    (Mo’jam Rijal Al-Hadith 18/165)
Al-Najashi (d. 450): “A reliable transmitter from among our companions.”

24. Muhammad b. Hammad b. Zaid Al-Harithi
Sunni Authorities:    (Lisan Al-Mizan 7/102)
Ibn Mandah (d. 470): “He has disapproved reports.”

Shi’ite Authorities:    (Mo’jam Rijal Al-Hadith 17/41)
Al-Najashi (d. 450): “He is reliable.”

25. Muhammad b. Muhammad b. Al-Ash’ath
Sunni Authorities:    (Lisan Al-Mizan 7/476-477)
Ibn ‘Adiyy (d. 365):  I transcribed hadith from him. His staunchness in Shi’ism led him to disseminate a transcription that consisted of around 1000 reports transmitted from Musa b. Isma’il b. Musa b. Ja’far, from his father, from his grandfather, from his fathers, with a soft handwriting and new parchment. Most of it consisted of disapproved reports (مناكير).We then brought this up to Al-Husain b. ‘Ali b. Al-Husain b. ‘Umar b. ‘Ali b. Al-Husain Al-‘Alawi, the sheikh of Ahlulbait in Egypt. He stated that Musa was his neighbor in the city for 40 years and that he never mentioned that he had transmission from his father or anyone else.
Al-Daraqutni (d. 385): “He was a wonder among Allah’s wonders. He fabricated that book, Al-‘Alawiyyat.”

Shi’ite Authorities:    (Mo’jam Rijal Al-Hadtth 18/200)
Al-Najashi (d. 450): “He is reliable and among our companions in Egypt. “
We have written an article that further analyzes how this liar was exposed.

26. Muhammad b. ‘Uthman b. Al-Hasan Al-Nasibi
Sunni Authorities:   (Lisan Al-Mizan 7/343)
Al-Khatib Al-Baghdadi (d. 464): “I asked Al-Azhari [d. 435] about Al-Nasib.” He said: “He is a liar. He presented the books of Ibn Al-Munadi to us. On them, he wrote his sama’ (claim of transmission) with his own handwriting.” So I asked him: “When did you hear this book?” He said: “In 435.” I then told him: “But you only came to Baghdad after 440 !” and he did not respond with anything. His transmission was initially steadfast, and he had reliably transmitted from the Shamis.
Ibn Al-Bada (d. 420): “I took hadith from him until the people of hadith prohibited me from doing so, so I stopped transmitting from him.”
Al-Saymari (d. 436): “He was weak in his transmission and his judicial testimonies.”
Ibn Al-Thallaj (d. 387): “He was weak in his transmission, but trusted in his judicial testimonies.”
Hamzah Al-Daqqaq (d. 424): “He transmitted and fabricated disapproved reports for the Shia.”

Shi’ite Authorities:   (Mo’jam Rijal Al-Hadith 17/294)
Al-Khoei (d. 1413): “He is reliable because he is from the teachers of Al-Najashi [d. 450].”

27. Sabbah b. Yahya Al-Muzani
Sunni Authorities:    (Lisan Al-Mizan 4/303 & Al-Majruhin 1/377)
Al-Bukhari (d. 256): “fihi nazar”, which is indicative of his severe weakness.
Ibn Hibban (d. 354): “He used to err in transmission such that he cannot be relied upon when he exclusively transmits a report.”

Shi’ite Authorities:    (Mo’jam Rijal Al-Hadith 10/104)
Al-Najashi (d. 450): “A reliable Kufan.”
Ibn Al-Ghada’iri (d. 5th century): “A Zaidi Kufan. His hadith among our companions is weak. It can be cited as corroborating evidence.”

28. Sallam b. Abi ‘Amrah Al-Khurasani
Sunni Authorities:    (Tahdhib Al-Tahdhib 4/286)
Yahya b. Ma’in (d. 233): “He is worthless.”
Ibn Hibban (d. 354) : “He transmits distorted reports from reliable transmitters. His transmission cannot be relied upon.”
Al-Azdi (d. 374): “He is extremely weak in hadith.”

Shi’ite Authorities:    (Mo’jam Rijal Al-Hadith 9/178)
Al-Najashi (d. 450): “He is a reliable transmitter.”

29. Sariyy b. ‘Abdillah b. Ya’qub Al-Kufi
Sunni Authorities:    (Lisan Al-Mizan 4/23)
Ibn ‘Adiyy (d. 365): “He has reports, and he is not well-known. He is criticized for some of his reports.”

Shi’ite Authorities:    (Mo’jam Rijal Al-Hadith 9/44)
Al-Najashi (d. 450): “A reliable Kufan.

30.  Thabit b. Dinar, Abu Hamzah Al-Thumali
Sunni Authorities:    (Tahdib Al-Tahdhib 2/7-8)
‘Umar b. Hafs b. Ghiyath (d. 222): “My father abandoned the hadith of Abu Hamzah Al-Thumali.”
Ibn Sa’d (d. 230): “He was weak.”
Yahya b. Ma’in (d. 233): “He is worthless.”
Ahmed b. Hanbal (d. 241): “He is weak, he is worthless.”
‘Amr Al-Fallas (d. 249): “He is not reliable.”
Al-Jawzajani (d. 259): “He was extremely weak (wahi) in hadith.”
Abu Zur’ah (d. 265): “He is weak.”
Abu Hatem (d. 277): “He is weak in hadith. His hadith should be written but it cannot be relied upon.”
Ya’qub b. Sufyan (d. 277): “He is weak.”
Al-Nasa’i (d. 303): “He is not reliable.”
Al-‘Uqayli (d. 322), Al-Dulabi (d. 310), and Ibn Al-Jarud (d. 307) and others weakened him.
Ibn Hibban (d. 354): “He was very delusional in his transmission such that he cannot be relied upon whenever he exclusively transmits anything, along with his extremism in Shi’ism.”
Ibn ‘Adiyy (d. 365): “His weakness is apparent in his transmission, and he is closer to weakness.”
Al-Daraqutni (d. 385): “He is abandoned (matruk).”
Ibn ‘Abdilbarr (d. 463): “He is not strongaccording to them. There was weakness in his hadith.”

Shi’ite Authorities:    (Mo’jam Rijal Al-Hadith 4/293-295)
Hamdawayh b. Nasir (d. early 4th century) endorsed his reliability.
Ibn Al-Ji’abi (d. 355): “He was from our virtuous companions and reliable transmitters.”
Al-Saduq (d. 381): “His reliable. He met four of the Imams, ‘Ali b. Al-Hussain, Muhammad b. ‘Ali, Ja’far b. Muhammad, and Musa b. Ja’far (as).”
Al-Najasi (d. 460): “He is reliable.”
Al-Tusi (d. 460): “He is reliable.”

31. ‘Ubaydullah b. Al-Walid Al-Wassafi
Sunni Authorities:   (Tahdhib Al-Tahdhib 7/55-56)
Yahya b. Ma’in (d. 233), Abu Zur’ah (d. 265) and Abu Hatem (d. 277) said: “He is weak.”
On another occasion, Yahya (d. 233) said: “He is worthless.”
Ahmed b. Hanbal (d. 241) : “He is not strong. His hadith should be written for the sake of general acquaintance.”
‘Amr b. ‘Ali (d. 249) and Al-Nasa’i (d. 303): “He is abandoned in hadith.”
Al-Saji (d. 307): “He has disapproved reports. He is very weak in hadith.”
Al-‘Uqayli (d. 322): “There are disapproved reports in his transmission. He is not corroborated in most of his hadiths.”
Ibn Hibban (d. 354): “He transmits reports from reliable transmitters that do not resemble those of the reliable transmitters, such that one’s heart would conclude that he purposely forged them. Thus, he deserved to be abandoned.”
Ibn ‘Adiyy (d. 365): “He is very weak. His weakness is apparent in his transmission.”
Abu Ahmed Al-Hakem (d. 378): “He is not strong according to them.”
Abu ‘Abdillah Al-Hakem (d. 405): “He transmitted fabricated hadiths from Muharib.”
Abu Nu’aym (d. 430): “He transmits disapproved reports from Muharib. He is worthless.”

Shi’ite Authorities:    (Mo’jam Rijal Al-Hadith 12/96)
Al-Najashi (d. 450): “An Arabian reliable transmitter.”

32. Yahya b. Hashem Al-Kufi
Sunni Authorities:    (Lisan Al-Mizan 8/480-482)
Yahya b. Ma’in (d. 233) accused him of fogery.
Ahmed b. Hanbal (d. 241): “He is not realible, and his hadith must not be written.”
Abu Hatem (d. 288): “He used to lie, and he was not truthful. His hadith has been abandoned.”
Saleh Jazarah (d. 293): “I saw Yahya b. Hisham, and he used to lie in hadith.”
Al-Nasa’i (d. 303) and others said: “He is abandoned (matruk).”
Al-‘Uqayli (d. 322): “He used to fabricate reprots and ascribe them to reliable transmitters.”
Ibn ‘Adiyy (d. 365): “He transmitted disapproved reports from reliable transmitters, and he used to steal reports from reliable transmitters. He is accused of not even meeting those individuals. Most of his transmission consists of disapproved reports, fabrications and stolen reports.
Al-Naqqash (d. 414): “He transmitted fabricated reports from Al-A’mash, Mis’ar, Dawud b. Abi Hind and others.”

Shi’ite Authorities:   (Mo’jam Rijal Al-Hadtth 21/100)
Al-Najashi (d. 450): “A Kufan who is scarce in his transmission. He is reliable.”

33. Ziyad b. al-Mundhir, Abu Al-Jarud
Sunni Authorities:    (Tahdib Al-Tahdhib 3/386-387)
Yahya b. Yahya (d.226 AH) said: “He fabricates reports.”
Ahmed b. Hanbal (d. 241): “He is abandoned in hadith,” and he severely weakened him.
Yahya b. Ma’in (d. 233): “He was a liar and an enemy of Allah who was not worth a cent.”
Al-Bukhari (d. 256): “They have criticized him.”
Abu Dawud (d. 275): “He is a liar. I heard Yahya say that.”
Abu Hatem Al-Razi (d. 277): “He is weak.”
Al-Nasa’i (d. 303): “He is abandoned (matruk).” On another occasion, he said: “He is not reliable.”
Ibn Hibban (died 354 AH) said: “He was a Rafidi who used to fabricate reports in the blunders of the Sahaba, and he would transmit baseless reports in the virtues of Ahlulbait. It is not permissible to write his hadith.”
Ibn ‘Adiyy (d. 365): “Most of his transmission is unconfirmed, and most of what he transmitted was regarding the virtues of Ahlulbait, and he is regarded among the extremists in Kufah.”
Ibn ‘Abdilbarr (d. 463): “They have agreed upon his weakness in hadith and that he is disapproved in it. Some have even ascribed him to the forgery of reports.”

Shi’ite Authorities:    (Mo’jam Rijal Al-Hadith 8/333-335)
Ibn Al-Ghada’iri (d. 5th century): “Ziyad is a man of status. His transmission among our companions is greater than his transmission among the Zaidis. Our companions dislike what Muhammad b. Sinan transmitted from him, but they approve of what Muhammad b. Bakr Al-Arjani transmitted from him.”
Al-Mufid (d. 413) endorsed him in Al-Risalah al- ‘Adadiyyah.
Al-Khoei also claimed that Ziyad was endorsed by ‘Ali b. Ibrahim Al-Qommi (d. 329); however, the authenticity of the preface to his tafsir is contested.

As you can see, there is a HUGE discrepency of the reliability of these narrators. So the next time your family gives you crap about following Ahlul Bayt, ask them, are the narrators in our books even reliable people?! which leads me to my third and final point

(3) The Ahlul Bayt in Sunni books have preached THE TOTAL OPPOSITE of what the Ahlul Bayt preach in shia books. For example we have an authentic hadith from Hasan(RA) that Ghadir Khum was NOT an appointment by the prophet(pbuh) of Ali to be caliph. We also have authentic hadith from the Ahlul Bayt where they say not to build buildings over graves, and to level them even, but shias do the opposite. We have authentic hadith from ALI HIMSELF, where he praised tarawih prayer, but shias say tarawih is evil, also we dont have anything from the Ahlul Bayt in Sunni books where they preached imamah, or that they are divine and masum, or that they are higher than prophets, and the list goes on and on. the point being, the Ahlul Bayt in Sunni books is POLES APART from the Ahlul Bayt in shia books. So the question is, WHOSE NARRATORS are more reliable? As the Quran clearly says, VERIFY INFORMATION BEFORE YOU BELIEVE IT, b/c this is exactly what the Christians failed to do and ended up believing Jesus(pbuh) to be a God. And when you dont verify information, you end up believing in crap like in the video below, without even asking the question, did the Ahlul bayt even PREACH this nonsense to begin with?

« Last Edit: September 10, 2019, 07:52:39 AM by Qamar Farooq »

Somebody

Re: Possible Ex-Shia in the making
« Reply #5 on: September 10, 2019, 01:05:05 PM »
How do you define good? Is a good person in your view someone who is infallible and never committed any Sin ? Or Good in your view is someone who commits sins due to human nature yet he reverts back to Allah and asks for forgiveness. Is such a person Good in your view?

I don’t believe one has to be infallible or sinless to be considered good, I rather agree with the idea that one can make mistakes and repent in sincerity, and as long as those mistakes weren’t severely harmful to others then they’d be sufficiently good in my book. As for Mu’awiayah, we were taught at school from a very early age that he was plain evil. However, as I’ve long come to realise, matters are almost always purely black or white in Shiaiism to the point where it resembles a children’s storybook: people are either villains or heroes. but I don’t think things are ever that simple, hence why I asked about Mu’awiayah from your viewpoint.

Somebody

Re: Possible Ex-Shia in the making
« Reply #6 on: September 10, 2019, 01:10:08 PM »
Overall and majority Sunni position is that he is CONDEMNED. Therefore, you will find majority of Sunni scholarship condemn him. Yazid's crime is not just the martyrdom of Hussain (ra) but he also committed other crimes such as the incident near Madina where his forces killed many people.

Hussain was killed by the governor who was appointed by Yazid. He didn't even punish him afterwards or any other people involved. Therefore, he was also responsible.
Thanks for clarifying. As for those minority scholars who don’t condemn him, what’s their view on him? And what’s their reasoning behind not condemning him? I think I’ve heard half hearted tries at making it seem as though he wasn’t directly involved, or something along those lines.

Somebody

Re: Possible Ex-Shia in the making
« Reply #7 on: September 10, 2019, 01:46:08 PM »
Also sister, i find that in the heat of Sunni-Shia discussions, sometimes we loose sight of the most important thing there is, which is AUTHENTICATING sources. The common Shia slogan against Ahlus Sunnah that you hear is that "we shias follow Ahlul Bayt, and you dont, therefore you are evil".

Thank you for your lengthy response! I do accept that Sunnis do follow the Ahlul Bayt, as Shias do also, but each follow their own idea of Ahlul Bayt and their teachings according to their own sources, which indicates the importance of deciding the authenticity of these sources, which you kindly pointed out. You mentioned that the narrators in Shia sources aren't reliable, which would make sense, but what if one were to argue, for example, regarding the common links you mentioned that these people were in fact reliable and Sunnis merely reject them because they were narrating the true teachings of Islam, as the Imams have taught them? As in they weren't liars and fabricators but the Sunnis made those up just to discredit them? Because that's a very common argument our Shia teachers make. So my question is, how do you prove that Sunni authorities were on point and Shias weren't?

I'll make sure to check out the articles you included as soon as I get the time Inshaallah.

Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: Possible Ex-Shia in the making
« Reply #8 on: September 10, 2019, 04:45:34 PM »
I don’t believe one has to be infallible or sinless to be considered good, I rather agree with the idea that one can make mistakes and repent in sincerity, and as long as those mistakes weren’t severely harmful to others then they’d be sufficiently good in my book. As for Mu’awiayah, we were taught at school from a very early age that he was plain evil. However, as I’ve long come to realise, matters are almost always purely black or white in Shiaiism to the point where it resembles a children’s storybook: people are either villains or heroes. but I don’t think things are ever that simple, hence why I asked about Mu’awiayah from your viewpoint.
Exactly, Alhamdulillah you are reflecting upon these matters  in the right way they  should be looked at, because these matters aren’t black and white as Shias try to portray.  Even if we reflect upon the life of a non-Muslim who is evil. We won’t find that all his life 24/7 he commits evil. There could be instances where he will commit some good deeds, like May be feeding poor or helping poor, etc, but that’s another matter that would those of his good deeds , be helpful to him in hereafter or not, and we know that they won’t.

Now coming back to Good person in your perspective, then I need a further clarification. So please bear with me.

Could a person due to misjudgment or misunderstanding severely harm others, and still be considered as good person because what he did was out of mistake in his understanding but he isn’t a person bad person who likes to harm people for fun or for his personal gains?

And in Quran we read that “if two believers fight”... now in fighting one may harm the other, but they are still recognized as believers. So what’s your perspective one of them is evil/bad believer? Or both are bad if they harmed each other, or both are just believers and we can’t pass a judgement on them?


Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: Possible Ex-Shia in the making
« Reply #9 on: September 10, 2019, 05:45:01 PM »
Thanks for clarifying. As for those minority scholars who don’t condemn him, what’s their view on him? And what’s their reasoning behind not condemning him? I think I’ve heard half hearted tries at making it seem as though he wasn’t directly involved, or something along those lines.
Those who don’t condemn him believe that all the allegations against him were made by the Shias or through unknown sources which can be relied upon, they weaken all reports which are presented against against Yazeed. And their claim is that Since Yazeed was a Muslim, hence there needs to be definite & strong evidence available to condemn him.

I believe here people become extreme due to mistakes by the the extremists on other side. I mean it’s true that Shias throw whatever they could get their hands at against Yazeed from Sunni books and majority of that would indeed be extremely weak and unreliable as per hadeeth science, this gives the opportunity  to the Sunnis in question to present before their audience these evidences brought forth by Shias and show that these are weak and unreliable. So if Shias would have cared and maintained in presenting only those arguments which were based on reliable reports , these Sunnis wouldn’t have got the chance. 

And on top of that we know that Shias make takfeer of Abū bakr(r), Umar(r), Uthman(r), etc, so that’s why these Sunnis, in reaction to this strongly defend Yazeed as well. Because it’s a fact that anyone who makes takfeer of these Sahaba is mentally ill, and none of their criticism carries any weight.

Most Sunnis don’t defend Yazeed because nothing of deen was taken from him. He hasn’t narrated any hadeeth which Sunnis take evidence from.

Somebody

Re: Possible Ex-Shia in the making
« Reply #10 on: September 10, 2019, 06:17:27 PM »
Could a person due to misjudgment or misunderstanding severely harm others, and still be considered as good person because what he did was out of mistake in his understanding but he isn’t a person bad person who likes to harm people for fun or for his personal gains?

And in Quran we read that “if two believers fight”... now in fighting one may harm the other, but they are still recognized as believers. So what’s your perspective one of them is evil/bad believer? Or both are bad if they harmed each other, or both are just believers and we can’t pass a judgement on them?
Well if they’re proven to be truthful and if I can trust that they’re not someone who’d hurt others for personal gain then I wouldn’t have anything against that person, if they were genuinely mistaken. And in the case of two believers fighting or having a dispute, I don’t think that’s going to render any of them an unbeliever really... That is if they were real believers in the first place and were both fighting for what they think is right.

Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: Possible Ex-Shia in the making
« Reply #11 on: September 10, 2019, 06:20:14 PM »
Thank you for your lengthy response! I do accept that Sunnis do follow the Ahlul Bayt, as Shias do also, but each follow their own idea of Ahlul Bayt and their teachings according to their own sources, which indicates the importance of deciding the authenticity of these sources, which you kindly pointed out. You mentioned that the narrators in Shia sources aren't reliable, which would make sense, but what if one were to argue, for example, regarding the common links you mentioned that these people were in fact reliable and Sunnis merely reject them because they were narrating the true teachings of Islam, as the Imams have taught them? As in they weren't liars and fabricators but the Sunnis made those up just to discredit them? Because that's a very common argument our Shia teachers make. So my question is, how do you prove that Sunni authorities were on point and Shias weren't?

I'll make sure to check out the articles you included as soon as I get the time Inshaallah.

Refer this article and also the video or book referred in this article:
http://www.twelvershia.net/2019/03/05/the-mohseni-dilemma/

http://www.twelvershia.net/2019/01/20/10-reasons-why-you-should-not-trust-shia-hadith-sources/

http://www.twelvershia.net/2018/04/22/sunni-critics-vs-shia-critics/

Important links in this article
http://www.twelvershia.net/2014/06/02/shia-hadith-vs-sunni-hadith/

Somebody

Re: Possible Ex-Shia in the making
« Reply #12 on: September 10, 2019, 06:34:02 PM »
Those who don’t condemn him believe that all the allegations against him were made by the Shias or through unknown sources which can be relied upon, they weaken all reports which are presented against against Yazeed. And their claim is that Since Yazeed was a Muslim, hence there needs to be definite & strong evidence available to condemn him.

I believe here people become extreme due to mistakes by the the extremists on other side. I mean it’s true that Shias throw whatever they could get their hands at against Yazeed from Sunni books and majority of that would indeed be extremely weak and unreliable as per hadeeth science, this gives the opportunity  to the Sunnis in question to present before their audience these evidences brought forth by Shias and show that these are weak and unreliable. So if Shias would have cared and maintained in presenting only those arguments which were based on reliable reports , these Sunnis wouldn’t have got the chance. 

And on top of that we know that Shias make takfeer of Abū bakr(r), Umar(r), Uthman(r), etc, so that’s why these Sunnis, in reaction to this strongly defend Yazeed as well. Because it’s a fact that anyone who makes takfeer of these Sahaba is mentally ill, and none of their criticism carries any weight.

Most Sunnis don’t defend Yazeed because nothing of deen was taken from him. He hasn’t narrated any hadeeth which Sunnis take evidence from.
I see. What do those Sunnis who defend him have to say about the fact that he didn’t even punish the governor that killed Husain, who he himself had appointed? Do they reject that as well?
By the way, why is it that Sunnis very rarely talk about the martyrdom of Husain even on Ashura? To me it seems while Shias turn it into the biggest event of history and mourn and hit themselves and other exaggerated silliness, Sunnis don’t put enough emphasis on it. I do think there are many lessons that can be derived from his martyrdom and his willingness to stand against injustice, and I don’t see these points made by Sunnis very often.

Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: Possible Ex-Shia in the making
« Reply #13 on: September 10, 2019, 06:35:25 PM »
Well if they’re proven to be truthful and if I can trust that they’re not someone who’d hurt others for personal gain then I wouldn’t have anything against that person, if they were genuinely mistaken.
Fine. In this situation would you prefer the judgement of Prophet(s) in matter or you prefer your own analysis and judgement of events that occurred 1400 years before and has info in bits and pieces which makes it difficult to get complete picture.?

Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: Possible Ex-Shia in the making
« Reply #14 on: September 10, 2019, 06:49:30 PM »
I see. What do those Sunnis who defend him have to say about the fact that he didn’t even punish the governor that killed Husain, who he himself had appointed? Do they reject that as well?
they don’t have satisfactory response for it.

By the way, why is it that Sunnis very rarely talk about the martyrdom of Husain even on Ashura? To me it seems while Shias turn it into the biggest event of history and mourn and hit themselves and other exaggerated silliness, Sunnis don’t put enough emphasis on it. I do think there are many lessons that can be derived from his martyrdom and his willingness to stand against injustice, and I don’t see these points made by Sunnis very often.
Sunnis do talk about Karbala event on Ashura or in Muharram, but yes if you compare that with the exaggeration of Shias who have based all their deen on it, then it would look rare. Because Shias keep majalis in Muharam in each of the Shia home. While Sunnis discuss about it in Friday sermons before Ashura or on Ashura in mosques, so it doesn’t get highlighted to Shias.

And not only Imam Hussain(r) but this is done the same way for Hamza(r) who was declared as Master(Sayyid) of martyrs as per Sunni and Shia hadeeth, or Uthman(r), etc.

Qamar Farooq

Re: Possible Ex-Shia in the making
« Reply #15 on: September 10, 2019, 08:19:16 PM »
Thank you for your lengthy response! I do accept that Sunnis do follow the Ahlul Bayt, as Shias do also, but each follow their own idea of Ahlul Bayt and their teachings according to their own sources, which indicates the importance of deciding the authenticity of these sources, which you kindly pointed out. You mentioned that the narrators in Shia sources aren't reliable, which would make sense, but what if one were to argue, for example, regarding the common links you mentioned that these people were in fact reliable and Sunnis merely reject them because they were narrating the true teachings of Islam, as the Imams have taught them? As in they weren't liars and fabricators but the Sunnis made those up just to discredit them? Because that's a very common argument our Shia teachers make. So my question is, how do you prove that Sunni authorities were on point and Shias weren't?

I'll make sure to check out the articles you included as soon as I get the time Inshaallah.


Your question is perfectly valid and fair. All of that is answered in the articles below. These articles are a MUST READ

http://www.twelvershia.net/2019/01/20/10-reasons-why-you-should-not-trust-shia-hadith-sources/

http://www.twelvershia.net/2019/03/24/liars-weak-transmitters-endorsed-by-the-shia/

http://www.twelvershia.net/2019/03/05/the-mohseni-dilemma/

http://www.twelvershia.net/2018/04/22/sunni-critics-vs-shia-critics/

http://www.twelvershia.net/2014/06/02/shia-hadith-vs-sunni-hadith/

this book details how SUNNI muhadithun evaluated the reliability of a transmitter
https://www.islamicdiscourseinitiative.com/canon/hadith/in-defense-of-the-hadith-methodebook/

https://youpuncturedtheark.wordpress.com/2013/06/19/why-islamic-teachings-should-never-be-taken-from-shia-sources/

There was someone who asked a question to Abdullah Moataz on this exact topic and his response is at 1:20:00 - 1:24:37


Once you are done reading the articles than watch this podcast.


Let me know what your thoughts are after you have gone through all the material i posted.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2019, 08:25:38 PM by Qamar Farooq »

Somebody

Re: Possible Ex-Shia in the making
« Reply #16 on: September 11, 2019, 01:12:27 AM »
Fine. In this situation would you prefer the judgement of Prophet(s) in matter or you prefer your own analysis and judgement of events that occurred 1400 years before and has info in bits and pieces which makes it difficult to get complete picture.?
I’d definitely prefer the judgment of Prophet (s) over mine.

Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: Possible Ex-Shia in the making
« Reply #17 on: September 11, 2019, 01:20:22 AM »
I’d definitely prefer the judgment of Prophet (s) over mine.

Good. Now let’s see the fate of Mu’awiyah(ra) as per authentic hadeeth of Prophet(saws).

Umair said Um Haram informed us that she heard the Prophet (SAWS) saying, “Paradise is granted to the first batch of my followers who will undertake a naval expedition.” Um Haram added, I said, ‘O Allah’s Messenger (SAWS)! Will I be amongst them?’ He replied, ‘You are amongst them. [Sahih al-Bukhari #2924]

Comment: So we find that, Paradise is granted to the first batch of Muslims who will undertake a naval expedition, and the interesting fact is that Muawiya(RA) was the one who led the first Naval expedition. We read:

Narrated Anas bin Malik: Um Haram said, “Once the Prophet (SAWS) slept in my house near to me and got up smiling. I said, ‘What makes you smile?’ He replied, ‘Some of my followers who (i.e. in a dream) were presented to me sailing on this green sea like kings on thrones.’ I said, ‘O Allah’s Messenger (SAWS)! Invoke Allah to make me one of them.” So the Prophet (SAWS) invoked Allah for her and went to sleep again. He did the same (i.e. got up and told his dream) and Um Haran repeated her question and he gave the same reply. She said, “Invoke Allah to make me one of them.” He said, “You are among the first batch.” Later on it happened that she went out in the company of her husband ‘Ubada bin As-Samit who went for Jihad and it was the first time the Muslims undertook a naval expedition led by Muawiya.[ Sahih al-Bukhari #2799]

Hafiz Ibn Hajr al-Asqalani said:

 وقوله : قد أوجبوا ” أي فعلوا فعلا وجبت لهم به الجنة
The saying (Paradise is) “granted” .. Paradise is WAJIB ON THEM. [Fath al Bari; under the commentary of hadith discussed]

Somebody

Re: Possible Ex-Shia in the making
« Reply #18 on: September 11, 2019, 01:23:52 AM »
Let me know what your thoughts are after you have gone through all the material i posted.
Sure will. Although I’m very busy as I’ll be taking my university entrance exam at the end of this school year and preparing for that takes up most of my time. But I’ll try to fit this into my schedule. Do excuse me if I stop replying for a while, as I have little time and this topic is more distracting than I expected, and I just don’t wanna fail my entrance exam! I hope you don’t mind me coming back every few months and asking questions. I’m trying to put off serious research until after I’m done with school inshaallah.

Somebody

Re: Possible Ex-Shia in the making
« Reply #19 on: September 11, 2019, 01:30:13 AM »
Good. Now let’s see the fate of Mu’awiyah(ra) as per authentic hadeeth of Prophet(saws).

Umair said Um Haram informed us that she heard the Prophet (SAWS) saying, “Paradise is granted to the first batch of my followers who will undertake a naval expedition.” Um Haram added, I said, ‘O Allah’s Messenger (SAWS)! Will I be amongst them?’ He replied, ‘You are amongst them. [Sahih al-Bukhari #2924]

Oh, he’s granted paradise is he? I wasn’t expecting that if I’m honest lol
So are there no negative hadiths of Mu’awiayah that are authentic? Any Hadiths proving he was against the Ahlul Bayt?

 

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