TwelverShia.net Forum

Anyone want to debate?

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wannabe

Re: Anyone want to debate?
« Reply #140 on: August 17, 2018, 04:29:49 AM »
But to me the station you speak of doesn’t seem valid to me. You say proof that a prophet is promoted to Imamate by being given a special leadership position. That is they ACTIVELY LEAD a nation. But your Imams 4-12 never lead no people or nation.

Your premise does not stand ground in my opinion.
which is a greater "kingdom": obedience to a king/ruler through "sword" or obedience to an imam through the command of Allah?
AFAIK, from shia's perspective, obedience by the command of Allah as per Quran 4:59 is a greater kingdom than the rulership/kingship of Umayyads/Abbasiads. But of course, this verse means different thing to different people. Allah knows best.

Mythbuster1

Re: Anyone want to debate?
« Reply #141 on: August 17, 2018, 09:08:30 AM »
Divine leadership, that would be Imamah. An example from the Qur'an, yes of course. Abraham was made an Imam of the people by being granted Imamah. You still want to dance around it 😊

Read the Qur'an and look at the history of mankind. Always only the minority believed. And the majority always went astray 😊

Yea divine leadership imamamah you HAVENT proved it your dancing around with your own interpretations desires and ideas........verse of Ibrahim as doesn’t help you either for it’s just leadership like any other.😊

 so according to your logic Allah swt let majority of the ummah of prophet saw go astray? And the truth is with the minority? Ok Qadianis are smaller than you so they must be on truth according to your logic!😂😂😂👍

Bubbles 😜

Mythbuster1

Re: Anyone want to debate?
« Reply #142 on: August 17, 2018, 09:11:11 AM »
We have. The only problem is you haven’t. And you need to. 😊 Be and let be. Live and let live. Leave yourself and us alone.  Give it a test and get on with it. 😊

What are you on?

I said no to the stupid idea of promotion.....doh!😉

Don’t worry about me I have an imam mashallah he is a great teacher at our masjid but he ain’t got no special powers......you know what I mean?😜

zaid_ibn_ali

Re: Anyone want to debate?
« Reply #143 on: August 17, 2018, 12:13:41 PM »
which is a greater "kingdom": obedience to a king/ruler through "sword" or obedience to an imam through the command of Allah?
AFAIK, from shia's perspective, obedience by the command of Allah as per Quran 4:59 is a greater kingdom than the rulership/kingship of Umayyads/Abbasiads. But of course, this verse means different thing to different people. Allah knows best.

Please read again. Iceman is using the verse regarding Ibrahim AS as evidence & comparison. Ibrahim AS actively led. Your Imams 4-12 did not.
So if Ibrahim AS was promoted to this special status of being chosen to actively lead, then yours Imams were already born as Imams according to you. That is the first inconsistency. Secondly, numbers 4-12 never actively led.
Thirdly, I see no historical evidence to suggest the 9-12 Imams in particular were even scholars, let alone on a special station they had since birth, a station Ibrahim AS the prophet did not have at birth but had to earn later in his life according to you.


wannabe

Re: Anyone want to debate?
« Reply #144 on: August 18, 2018, 03:38:30 AM »
Please read again. Iceman is using the verse regarding Ibrahim AS as evidence & comparison. Ibrahim AS actively led. Your Imams 4-12 did not.
So if Ibrahim AS was promoted to this special status of being chosen to actively lead, then yours Imams were already born as Imams according to you. That is the first inconsistency. Secondly, numbers 4-12 never actively led.
Thirdly, I see no historical evidence to suggest the 9-12 Imams in particular were even scholars, let alone on a special station they had since birth, a station Ibrahim AS the prophet did not have at birth but had to earn later in his life according to you.
oic. i'm neither here nor there.
i try to see both sides of the coin and follow the best of it. i've read both shia and salafi's view on imamate.
IMO, even though it's against Quran [30:32],
Quote
[Shakir 30:32] Of those who divided their religion and became sects, every sect rejoicing in what they had with them
maybe it's time to do positive advertising, if each sect want to promote his. Allah knows best.

iceman

Re: Anyone want to debate?
« Reply #145 on: August 22, 2018, 12:10:34 PM »
oic. i'm neither here nor there.
i try to see both sides of the coin and follow the best of it. i've read both shia and salafi's view on imamate.
IMO, even though it's against Quran [30:32], maybe it's time to do positive advertising, if each sect want to promote his. Allah knows best.

"even though it's against Quran"

Why do you believe it's against the Qur'an?

wannabe

Re: Anyone want to debate?
« Reply #146 on: August 23, 2018, 02:38:44 AM »
"even though it's against Quran"

Why do you believe it's against the Qur'an?
IMO, even though it's against Quran [30:32], maybe it's time to do positive advertising, if each sect want to promote his. Allah knows best.
unless we have a bullet-proof evidence(repeat 10x), then i find the following as thought provoking (at least it appears to be so to me).
[Shakir 25:30] And the Messenger cried out: O my Lord! surely my people have treated this Quran as a forsaken thing.

1. Be not disunited

[Shakir 3:103] And hold fast by the covenant of Allah all together and be not disunited, and remember the favor of Allah on you when you were enemies, then He united your hearts so by His favor you became brethren; and you were on the brink of a pit of fire, then He saved you from it, thus does Allah make clear to you His communications that you may follow the right way.

2. When we are disunited

2.1 Prophet saww has no concern

[Shakir 6:159] Surely they who divided their religion into parts and became sects, you have no concern with them; their affair is only with Allah, then He will inform them of what they did.

2.2 don't rejoice with what we have

[Shakir 30:31] Turning to Him, and be careful of (your duty to) Him and keep up prayer and be not of the polytheists
[Shakir 30:32] Of those who divided their religion and became sects, every sect rejoicing in what they had with them

2.3 Don't worsen the situation, mocking each other. instead, let's race with one another to virtuous deeds.

[Shakir 5:48] And We have revealed to you the Book with the truth, verifying what is before it of the Book and a guardian over it, therefore judge between them by what Allah has revealed, and do not follow their low desires (to turn away) from the truth that has come to you; for every one of you did We appoint a law and a way, and if Allah had pleased He would have made you (all) a single people, but that He might try you in what He gave you, therefore strive with one another to hasten to virtuous deeds; to Allah is your return, of all (of you), so He will let you know that in which you differed;

3. If your are a leader

[Shakir 16:25] That they may bear their burdens entirely on the day of resurrection and also of the burdens of those whom they lead astray without knowledge; now surely evil is what they bear.

4. If you are a follower

4.1 Don't follow blindly: we may be facing intense regret then.

[Shakir 2:166] When those who were followed shall renounce those who followed (them), and they see the chastisement and their ties are cut asunder.
[Shakir 2:167] And those who followed shall say: Had there been for us a return, then we would renounce them as they have renounced us. Thus will Allah show them their deeds to be intense regret to them, and they shall not come forth from the fire.

4.2 Don't obey a sinner

[Shakir 76:24] Therefore wait patiently for the command of your Lord, and obey not from among them a sinner or an ungrateful one

5.0 Munafiq

[Shakir 63:4] And when you see them, their persons will please you, and If they speak, you will listen to their speech; (they are) as if they were big pieces of wood clad with garments; they think every cry to be against them. They are the enemy, therefore beware of them; may Allah destroy them, whence are they turned back?
Allah Knows Best.


wannabe

Re: Anyone want to debate?
« Reply #147 on: August 25, 2018, 12:45:44 AM »

unless we have a bullet-proof evidence (repeat 10x), then i find the following as thought provoking (at least it appears to be so to me).
..and also
[Shakir 11:118] And if your Lord had pleased He would certainly have made people a single nation, and they shall continue to differ.
[Shakir 11:119] Except those on whom your Lord has mercy; and for this did He create them; and the word of your Lord is fulfilled: Certainly I will fill hell with the jinn and the men, all together.

[Shakir 7:179] And certainly We have created for hell many of the jinn and the men; they have hearts with which they do not understand, and they have eyes with which they do not see, and they have ears with which they do not hear; they are as cattle, nay, they are in worse errors; these are the heedless ones.

[Shakir 38:62] And they shall say: What is the matter with us that we do not see men whom we used to count among the vicious?
[Shakir 38:63] Was it that we (only) took them in scorn, or have our eyes (now) turned aside from them?

[Shakir 18:29] And say: The truth is from your Lord, so let him who please believe, and let him who please disbelieve; surely We have prepared for the iniquitous a fire, the curtains of which shall encompass them about; and if they cry for water, they shall be given water like molten brass which will scald their faces; evil the drink and ill the resting-place.

[Shakir 67:10] And they shall say: Had we but listened or pondered, we should not have been among the inmates of the burning fire.

[Shakir 7:28] And when they commit an indecency they say: We found our fathers doing this, and Allah has enjoined it on us. Say: Surely Allah does not enjoin indecency; do you say against Allah what you do not know?

[Shakir 36:21] Follow him who does not ask you for reward, and they are the followers of the right course.

[Shakir 24:27] O you who believe! Do not enter houses other than your own houses until you have asked permission and saluted their inmates; this is better for you, that you may be mindful.
[Shakir 24:28] But if you do not find any one therein, then do not enter them until permission is given to you; and if it is said to you: Go back, then go back; this is purer for you; and Allah is Cognizant of what you do.

Mythbuster1

Re: Anyone want to debate?
« Reply #148 on: September 01, 2018, 05:29:36 PM »
No Imamate
No divinity

Shura is the Islamic way of choosing a leader

All these posts and no shia has got anything but long explanations on verses that have nothing to do with stupid divine Imamate theory

Some even tried their hardest to prove such a simple Shiite concept but failed MISERABLY 😂

Alhamdulillah for ahlu sunnah 👍


iceman

Re: Anyone want to debate?
« Reply #149 on: September 03, 2018, 08:55:40 AM »
No Imamate
No divinity

Shura is the Islamic way of choosing a leader

All these posts and no shia has got anything but long explanations on verses that have nothing to do with stupid divine Imamate theory

Some even tried their hardest to prove such a simple Shiite concept but failed MISERABLY 😂

Alhamdulillah for ahlu sunnah 👍

Pat yourself on the back 😊 Have one from me 😊

"Shura is the Islamic way of choosing a leader"

Can you prove this from the Qur'an, that SHURA is the Islamic way of CHOOSING A LEADER? 😊

Unfortunately this wasn't followed in Saqifa. And wasn't the way of selecting the second and third Caliphs either. 😊

Mythbuster1

Re: Anyone want to debate?
« Reply #150 on: September 04, 2018, 10:01:04 AM »
Pat yourself on the back 😊 Have one from me 😊

"Shura is the Islamic way of choosing a leader"

Can you prove this from the Qur'an, that SHURA is the Islamic way of CHOOSING A LEADER? 😊

Unfortunately this wasn't followed in Saqifa. And wasn't the way of selecting the second and third Caliphs either. 😊

Lol 😂😂😂😂

I only posted that to see if you react.........lo and behold you didn’t fail you posted straight back like a true TROLL
😜👍

As proven by the Quran (read the posts and step out of your Shiite shell) shura is the way of choosing and as proven it’s not in the Quran there is no divine leadership where Allah swt chooses the imam

Kick yourself hard coz you haven’t a clear sign or proof from the Quran infact bang your head more against a wall maybe you will find it..........when you do then come and debate

😂😂😂👍

iceman

Re: Anyone want to debate?
« Reply #151 on: September 08, 2018, 12:25:07 AM »
Lol 😂😂😂😂

I only posted that to see if you react.........lo and behold you didn’t fail you posted straight back like a true TROLL
😜👍

As proven by the Quran (read the posts and step out of your Shiite shell) shura is the way of choosing and as proven it’s not in the Quran there is no divine leadership where Allah swt chooses the imam

Kick yourself hard coz you haven’t a clear sign or proof from the Quran infact bang your head more against a wall maybe you will find it..........when you do then come and debate

😂😂😂👍

"like a true TROLL"

😊 Well you certainly know your trolls, don't you. It most certainly takes one to know one 😊

"As proven by the Quran (read the posts and step out of your Shiite shell) shura is the way of choosing"

😊 Prove direct and straight from the Qur'an that the Ummah had a right to choose their leader and Muhammad's s.a.w successor.

Show me where the Muslim Ummah have the right to choose their leader by means of Shura. And then explain to me the principles and rules and regulations about Shura and the procedure and method of how it should be conducted, carried out.

And why weren't the second and third Caliph chosen this way 😊 Good luck, you most certainly need it.

I know in return I won't get a pleasant and constructive response. Just smiley faces, gimmicks and tantrums as usual 😊

 

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