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BBC to post undercover mutah documentary

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Adil

BBC to post undercover mutah documentary
« on: October 04, 2019, 07:06:42 AM »
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/extra/iuKTEGjKgS/teenage_iraq_brides

Documentary will be shown tomorrow I think, however the article above describes it.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m00098jb - part 1
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m00098ff - part 2


Adil

Re: BBC to post undercover mutah documentary
« Reply #1 on: October 04, 2019, 07:15:33 AM »
https://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235064148-upcoming-bbc-documentary-undercover-with-the-clerics/

The shiachat reaction. These shia are strange. That starlight woman has no shame whatsoever, still defending mutah. When someone wants a 3 hour marriage with her or one of her beloved female relatives, not sure whether she'd jump into her lovely mutah then.

Some of them just attack the BBC. Other talk about the need to confront abusive clerics and such...even though these clerics are literally facilitating mutah which these shiachat people defend. Others just bringing up ISIS as if ISIS is the cause of shia men jumping at the chance to commit mutah.

muslim720

Re: BBC to post undercover mutah documentary
« Reply #2 on: October 07, 2019, 05:37:06 PM »
Salaam alaykum wa rahmatullah,

Why are ShiaChat-ers upset?  Isn't mu'tah an act of Sunnah, according to them?  Then why the embarrassment and discomfort over BBC publicizing "an act of Sunnah"? 

I would love for the BBC to make a documentary on any actual act of Sunnah.  After all, any publicity is good publicity!
"Our coward ran from those in authority" - Iceman (admitting the truth regarding his 12th Imam)

Khaled

Re: BBC to post undercover mutah documentary
« Reply #3 on: October 07, 2019, 07:22:36 PM »
Salaam alaykum wa rahmatullah,

Why are ShiaChat-ers upset?  Isn't mu'tah an act of Sunnah, according to them?  Then why the embarrassment and discomfort over BBC publicizing "an act of Sunnah"? 

I would love for the BBC to make a documentary on any actual act of Sunnah.  After all, any publicity is good publicity!

وعليكم السلام ورحمة الله وبركاته

I wonder if Ameen or whatever his name would still argue that Mut'ah isn't considered taboo in the Shia community?
كلُّ سُلامى من الناس عليه صدقة كلَّ يوم تطلع فيه الشمس، تَعدلُ بين اثنين صدقة، وتعين الرَّجل في دابَّته فتحمله عليها أو ترفع له عليها متاعَه صدقة، والكلمةُ الطيِّبة صدقة، وبكلِّ خطوة تَمشيها إلى الصلاة صدقة، وتُميط الأذى عن الطريق صدقة

muslim720

Re: BBC to post undercover mutah documentary
« Reply #4 on: October 07, 2019, 09:25:04 PM »
وعليكم السلام ورحمة الله وبركاته

I wonder if Ameen or whatever his name would still argue that Mut'ah isn't considered taboo in the Shia community?

I would commend him to stand by that which his madhhab considers to be an "act of Sunnah".  However, I would heavily criticize him - basically mock him - for subjecting women to such a deplorable act.
"Our coward ran from those in authority" - Iceman (admitting the truth regarding his 12th Imam)

Adil

Re: BBC to post undercover mutah documentary
« Reply #5 on: October 08, 2019, 10:52:09 PM »
Did anyone end up watching it then?

Not really my cup of tea so I just read the article. Rather not see Muslim girls getting abused. I've seen some of the shia responses on twitter though and they're calling it islamaphobic. Imagine the amount of denial that they have go through to believe this. Mutah may be marriage for them but for everyone else it literally matches prostitution.

MuslimK

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Re: BBC to post undercover mutah documentary
« Reply #6 on: October 09, 2019, 01:18:30 PM »
The Sunni Defense will live stream in the next four hours to react to the documentary. Stay tuned!

REACTING to BBC Mut'ah Documentary "Undercover with the Clerics - Iraq's Secret Sex Trade"



در خلافت میل نیست ای بی‌خبر
میل کی آید ز بوبکر و عمر
میل اگر بودی در آن دو مقتدا
هر دو کردندی پسر را پیشوا

عطار نِیشابوری

www.Nahjul-Balagha.net | www.TwelverShia.net | www.ghadirkhumm.com

iceman

Re: BBC to post undercover mutah documentary
« Reply #7 on: November 11, 2019, 12:32:50 AM »
Salaam alaykum wa rahmatullah,

Why are ShiaChat-ers upset?  Isn't mu'tah an act of Sunnah, according to them?  Then why the embarrassment and discomfort over BBC publicizing "an act of Sunnah"? 

I would love for the BBC to make a documentary on any actual act of Sunnah.  After all, any publicity is good publicity!

Is this true,

'A misyar marriage (Arabic: نكاح المسيار‎, romanized: nikah al-misyar or more often زواج المسيار zawaj al-misyar "traveller's marriage") is a type of marriage contract in Sunni sects of Islam (some aspects are similar to mutah marriage in Shia Islam)'

Would you also love the BBC to make a documentary on MISYAR MARRIAGE  AS WELL 😊
« Last Edit: November 11, 2019, 12:34:56 AM by iceman »

muslim720

Re: BBC to post undercover mutah documentary
« Reply #8 on: November 11, 2019, 03:47:25 PM »
'A misyar marriage (Arabic: نكاح المسيار‎, romanized: nikah al-misyar or more often زواج المسيار zawaj al-misyar "traveller's marriage") is a type of marriage contract in Sunni sects of Islam (some aspects are similar to mutah marriage in Shia Islam)'

"Some aspects", not ALL aspects, are similar to mut'ah marriage. 

Marriage, with the intention to divorce or with pre-agreed expiration date, is haraam and misyar or nikah kitaba has no expiration date.

Quote
Would you also love the BBC to make a documentary on MISYAR MARRIAGE  AS WELL 😊

I would love for BBC to do a documentary on misyar marriage.  In today's day-and-age, unlike mut'ah which violates Islamic codes of chastity and a cause of embarrassment to nearly all Shias, misyar can be promoted to help young people commit to marriage while foregoing some of their rights and/or responsibilities temporarily until they are ready to move in and start their own life together.
"Our coward ran from those in authority" - Iceman (admitting the truth regarding his 12th Imam)

iceman

Re: BBC to post undercover mutah documentary
« Reply #9 on: November 11, 2019, 07:33:20 PM »
"Some aspects", not ALL aspects, are similar to mut'ah marriage. 

Marriage, with the intention to divorce or with pre-agreed expiration date, is haraam and misyar or nikah kitaba has no expiration date.

I would love for BBC to do a documentary on misyar marriage.  In today's day-and-age, unlike mut'ah which violates Islamic codes of chastity and a cause of embarrassment to nearly all Shias, misyar can be promoted to help young people commit to marriage while foregoing some of their rights and/or responsibilities temporarily until they are ready to move in and start their own life together.

Ok. Lets see if we can get upto a decent discussion.

"Some aspects", not ALL aspects, are similar to mut'ah marriage. 

Which aspects are similar and which aren't?

"Marriage, with the intention to divorce or with pre-agreed expiration date, is haraam"

Ok. According to your belief and faith based on the school of thought that you follow. Point accepted.

"and misyar or nikah kitaba has no expiration date"

Ok, so what's the difference between the two then. I mean you have nikah, what was the purpose and point for misyar marriage. And is there any reference from Quran or authentic hadiths regarding it. Or did the Mullahs and Muftis just come up with it. If they did then why. What's the reason and purpose for it.


muslim720

Re: BBC to post undercover mutah documentary
« Reply #11 on: November 11, 2019, 11:41:04 PM »
Ok. Lets see if we can get upto a decent discussion.

Yeah, lets see!


Quote
Which aspects are similar and which aren't?

I am not worried about the parallels.  What differentiates one from the other is that there is no expiration date.  In other words, there is no intent to divorce after a certain period of time which is what makes misyaar halaal (although discouraged by our scholars) and mut'ah haraam.


Quote
Ok. According to your belief and faith based on the school of thought that you follow. Point accepted.

No, this is according to the Prophetic Sunnah.


Quote
Ok, so what's the difference between the two then. I mean you have nikah, what was the purpose and point for misyar marriage.

Nikah or marriage, according to Islam, is transfer of responsibility.  It is when a man takes responsibility of a woman and in that sense, a man is expected to be ready (for this responsibility).  In certain cases, like when someone is a student, he may not be able to afford to take on that responsibility (not just financially but also time-wise).  So the option is there for him to get the nikah done, with stipulated conditions, without having to take on the full responsibility right away.  The wife chooses to forego some of her rights over her husband temporarily until they are ready to start life together.

In fact, I read that the bride and/or the groom can stipulate if there should be no intimacy until they are ready to live together.  So there is another difference; it is not lust-driven.


Quote
And is there any reference from Quran or authentic hadiths regarding it. Or did the Mullahs and Muftis just come up with it. If they did then why. What's the reason and purpose for it.

Absolutely!  Everything with Ahlus Sunnah Wal Jama'ah has precedence in Qur'an and/or Prophetic Sunnah.

The marriage of the Holy Prophet (saw) to Aisha (ra) is one such example.  He (saw) married her when she was 6 but did not take her to his house and consummate the marriage until she was 9.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2019, 11:43:56 PM by muslim720 »
"Our coward ran from those in authority" - Iceman (admitting the truth regarding his 12th Imam)

iceman

Re: BBC to post undercover mutah documentary
« Reply #12 on: November 12, 2019, 12:43:35 AM »
Yeah, lets see!


I am not worried about the parallels.  What differentiates one from the other is that there is no expiration date.  In other words, there is no intent to divorce after a certain period of time which is what makes misyaar halaal (although discouraged by our scholars) and mut'ah haraam.


No, this is according to the Prophetic Sunnah.


Nikah or marriage, according to Islam, is transfer of responsibility.  It is when a man takes responsibility of a woman and in that sense, a man is expected to be ready (for this responsibility).  In certain cases, like when someone is a student, he may not be able to afford to take on that responsibility (not just financially but also time-wise).  So the option is there for him to get the nikah done, with stipulated conditions, without having to take on the full responsibility right away.  The wife chooses to forego some of her rights over her husband temporarily until they are ready to start life together.

In fact, I read that the bride and/or the groom can stipulate if there should be no intimacy until they are ready to live together.  So there is another difference; it is not lust-driven.


Absolutely!  Everything with Ahlus Sunnah Wal Jama'ah has precedence in Qur'an and/or Prophetic Sunnah.

The marriage of the Holy Prophet (saw) to Aisha (ra) is one such example.  He (saw) married her when she was 6 but did not take her to his house and consummate the marriage until she was 9.

You said,

"Some aspects", not ALL aspects, are similar to mut'ah marriage. 

I asked,

Which aspects are similar and which aren't?

And you responded by saying,

"I am not worried about the parallels"

Therefore avoiding the questioning.

You said,

"What differentiates one from the other is that there is no expiration date. In other words, there is no intent to divorce after a certain period of time"

"which is what makes misyaar halaal (although discouraged by our scholars) and mut'ah haraam"

So basically it boils down to one thing, in one there is an expiration date and in the other there isn't. And according to your belief halal and haram depends on this. Those who differ with this and think otherwise would obviously be wrong according to you.

"No, this is according to the Prophetic Sunnah"

Ok. Give me a clear reference regarding misyar marriage from the Prophetic Sunnah.

"In fact, I read that the bride and/or the groom can stipulate if there should be no intimacy until they are ready to live together.  So there is another difference"

This is also done within Asian marriages. It's a common practice in Pakistanis and Indians be it Sunni or Shia. You have Nikah with ruksati or Nikah without ruksati. The second option covers the example you gave.

You said,

"It is not lust-driven"

But it can be. What's practiced in Saudi Arabia is lust-driven. That's exactly what it's based on. The examples you gave nikah without ruksati covers it.

muslim720

Re: BBC to post undercover mutah documentary
« Reply #13 on: November 12, 2019, 05:44:03 AM »
You said,

"Some aspects", not ALL aspects, are similar to mut'ah marriage. 

Why lie that you want to have a decent discussion when you are trying to further your own ideology?


Quote
I asked,

Which aspects are similar and which aren't?

And you responded by saying,

"I am not worried about the parallels"

Therefore avoiding the questioning.

Not so fast!  Let us back up for a minute and put things in chronological order.

You quoted the following: "A misyar marriage (Arabic: نكاح المسيار‎, romanized: nikah al-misyar or more often زواج المسيار zawaj al-misyar "traveller's marriage") is a type of marriage contract in Sunni sects of Islam (some aspects are similar to mutah marriage in Shia Islam)".

You wanted us to believe that "misyaar" and "mut'ah" are one in the same.  I refuted you by showing you - from your own quoted statement - that they are not 100% identical by saying: "'Some aspects', not ALL aspects, are similar to mut'ah marriage."

Therefore, it is for you to prove which aspects are similar because your quote made that claim so please do not put the burden of proof (for your own quoted claim) on me.

To me, halaal and haraam are mutually exclusive so they are not the same in any aspect. 


Quote
So basically it boils down to one thing, in one there is an expiration date and in the other there isn't. And according to your belief halal and haram depends on this.

Yes and yes!  Temporary marriage, which comes with the intent to divorce and an expiration date, was pronounced haraam by the Holy Prophet (saw) attested by Imam Ali (ra) in an authentic hadith.


Quote
Ok. Give me a clear reference regarding misyar marriage from the Prophetic Sunnah.

The Holy Prophet (saw) married Aisha (ra) when she was 6 and he took her to his house and consummated the marriage when she was 9.  Clear-cut example of such a marriage!

Did you not see me reference this in my previous post?  Or you conveniently overlooked it?


Quote
This is also done within Asian marriages. It's a common practice in Pakistanis and Indians be it Sunni or Shia. You have Nikah with ruksati or Nikah without ruksati. The second option covers the example you gave.

I am well aware of the concept of rukhsati!


Quote
But it can be. What's practiced in Saudi Arabia is lust-driven. That's exactly what it's based on. The examples you gave nikah without ruksati covers it.

Saudi Arabia is not our benchmark.
"Our coward ran from those in authority" - Iceman (admitting the truth regarding his 12th Imam)

iceman

Re: BBC to post undercover mutah documentary
« Reply #14 on: November 12, 2019, 09:35:27 PM »
Why lie that you want to have a decent discussion when you are trying to further your own ideology?


Not so fast!  Let us back up for a minute and put things in chronological order.

You quoted the following: "A misyar marriage (Arabic: نكاح المسيار‎, romanized: nikah al-misyar or more often زواج المسيار zawaj al-misyar "traveller's marriage") is a type of marriage contract in Sunni sects of Islam (some aspects are similar to mutah marriage in Shia Islam)".

You wanted us to believe that "misyaar" and "mut'ah" are one in the same.  I refuted you by showing you - from your own quoted statement - that they are not 100% identical by saying: "'Some aspects', not ALL aspects, are similar to mut'ah marriage."

Therefore, it is for you to prove which aspects are similar because your quote made that claim so please do not put the burden of proof (for your own quoted claim) on me.

To me, halaal and haraam are mutually exclusive so they are not the same in any aspect. 


Yes and yes!  Temporary marriage, which comes with the intent to divorce and an expiration date, was pronounced haraam by the Holy Prophet (saw) attested by Imam Ali (ra) in an authentic hadith.


The Holy Prophet (saw) married Aisha (ra) when she was 6 and he took her to his house and consummated the marriage when she was 9.  Clear-cut example of such a marriage!

Did you not see me reference this in my previous post?  Or you conveniently overlooked it?


I am well aware of the concept of rukhsati!


Saudi Arabia is not our benchmark.

"Why lie that you want to have a decent discussion when you are trying to further your own ideology?"

You're back with your tactics again. It didn't take long to show yourself.

"You said,

"Some aspects", not ALL aspects, are similar to mut'ah marriage. 

I asked,

Which aspects are similar and which aren't?

And you responded by saying,

"I am not worried about the parallels"

Therefore avoiding the questioning.

Rather than answering and explaining what you said. You're up to your old tricks of diverting attention. Can't explain yourself then just say so. Don't go gaming. No need for trick or treat. In your case there is no treat. It's just trick. But anyways lets move forward.

"A misyar marriage (Arabic: نكاح المسيار‎, romanized: nikah al-misyar or more often زواج المسيار zawaj al-misyar "traveller's marriage") is a type of marriage contract in Sunni sects of Islam (some aspects are similar to mutah marriage in Shia Islam)'

Yes I did quote the above. But before quoting it I said by asking "is this true". Did you deliberately miss that.

"You wanted us to believe that "misyaar" and "mut'ah" are one in the same"

Now where on earth did you get to that conclusion. I don't want you to believe in anything. I asked if it was true before quoting it. And you replied by saying in post #8 of yours,

"Some aspects", not ALL aspects, are similar to mut'ah marriage.

I asked you to explain yourself. And you started dancing around.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2019, 09:47:51 PM by iceman »

muslim720

Re: BBC to post undercover mutah documentary
« Reply #15 on: November 12, 2019, 09:48:48 PM »
You're back with your tactics again. It didn't take long to show yourself.

What tactics?  Exposing you?  If you want to call that a tactic then go ahead.


Quote
"You said,

"Some aspects", not ALL aspects, are similar to mut'ah marriage. 

I did not say that!  The quote you relied upon said that.  Here it is again:
"A misyar marriage (Arabic: نكاح المسيار‎, romanized: nikah al-misyar or more often زواج المسيار zawaj al-misyar 'traveller's marriage') is a type of marriage contract in Sunni sects of Islam (some aspects are similar to mutah marriage in Shia Islam)"

I was trying to point out to you that even the support for your argument does not say what you want us to believe it says.


Quote
Which aspects are similar and which aren't?

You quoted a supporting statement saying "some aspects are similar to mutah marriage in Shia Islam" so it is for you to explain, or find out, what those similarities are.  As far as I am concerned, halaal and haraam are mutually exclusive and misyaar is nothing like mut'ah.


Quote
Therefore avoiding the questioning.

You are questioning me to clarify the statement you cited as your support?  Aren't you special stupid?!


Quote
Rather than answering and explaining what you said. You're up to your old tricks of diverting attention. Can't explain yourself then just say so. Don't go gaming. No need for trick or treat. In your case there is no treat. It's just trick. But anyways lets move forward.

I am sorry you don't properly read statements you cite to support your own argument.  It backfired on you and now you want me reconcile YOUR dichotomy, lol!  Ajeeb!
« Last Edit: November 12, 2019, 09:49:59 PM by muslim720 »
"Our coward ran from those in authority" - Iceman (admitting the truth regarding his 12th Imam)

iceman

Re: BBC to post undercover mutah documentary
« Reply #16 on: November 12, 2019, 09:50:19 PM »
Why lie that you want to have a decent discussion when you are trying to further your own ideology?


Not so fast!  Let us back up for a minute and put things in chronological order.

You quoted the following: "A misyar marriage (Arabic: نكاح المسيار‎, romanized: nikah al-misyar or more often زواج المسيار zawaj al-misyar "traveller's marriage") is a type of marriage contract in Sunni sects of Islam (some aspects are similar to mutah marriage in Shia Islam)".

You wanted us to believe that "misyaar" and "mut'ah" are one in the same.  I refuted you by showing you - from your own quoted statement - that they are not 100% identical by saying: "'Some aspects', not ALL aspects, are similar to mut'ah marriage."

Therefore, it is for you to prove which aspects are similar because your quote made that claim so please do not put the burden of proof (for your own quoted claim) on me.

To me, halaal and haraam are mutually exclusive so they are not the same in any aspect. 


Yes and yes!  Temporary marriage, which comes with the intent to divorce and an expiration date, was pronounced haraam by the Holy Prophet (saw) attested by Imam Ali (ra) in an authentic hadith.


The Holy Prophet (saw) married Aisha (ra) when she was 6 and he took her to his house and consummated the marriage when she was 9.  Clear-cut example of such a marriage!

Did you not see me reference this in my previous post?  Or you conveniently overlooked it?


I am well aware of the concept of rukhsati!


Saudi Arabia is not our benchmark.

"Therefore, it is for you to prove which aspects are similar because your quote made that claim so please do not put the burden of proof (for your own quoted claim) on me"

Again I asked before quoting and you replied by saying,

"Some aspects", not ALL aspects, are similar to mut'ah marriage"

I asked you which aspects are similar and which aren't. No reply from you. Just counter argument.

"To me, halaal and haraam are mutually exclusive so they are not the same in any aspect"

What is halal and what is haram prove it from the Quran. Your books aren't good enough for me. You know that. Provide clear proof. And misyar marriage isn't acceptable to some of your scholars. Some accept it and some don't. Some say it is halal and some consider it haram. I think you need to sort out your back yard first and get your house in order then discuss.

"Yes and yes!  Temporary marriage, which comes with the intent to divorce and an expiration date, was pronounced haraam by the Holy Prophet (saw) attested by Imam Ali (ra) in an authentic hadith"

We don't accept that. Again there's difference in opinion and different statements of who banned it. But no reason has been given to why it was banned till yet. What was the reason and purpose for it to be banned. WHY?

"The Holy Prophet (saw) married Aisha (ra) when she was 6 and he took her to his house and consummated the marriage when she was 9.  Clear-cut example of such a marriage"

There's different sides to that story. But lets stick to that. Prove that that was misyar marriage. Prove to me it was practiced during the Prophet's s.a.w time.

"Saudi Arabia is not our benchmark"

Oh it very well is. Denying a fact won't get you anywhere.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2019, 10:02:04 PM by iceman »

muslim720

Re: BBC to post undercover mutah documentary
« Reply #17 on: November 12, 2019, 09:58:12 PM »
Again I asked before quoting and you replied by saying,

What difference does it make when it was your supporting evidence that made that claim? 
"Our coward ran from those in authority" - Iceman (admitting the truth regarding his 12th Imam)

muslim720

Re: BBC to post undercover mutah documentary
« Reply #18 on: November 12, 2019, 10:45:08 PM »
I asked you which aspects are similar and which aren't. No reply from you. Just counter argument.

You are asking the wrong person.  To me, misyaar is nothing like mut'ah.  The "some aspects are similar to mut'ah marriage" was your claim.  You should be the one to prove to us how misyaar is similar in "some aspects" to mut'ah.  Or you can admit you don't know what you are talking about and you copy-paste without reading.


Quote
What is halal and what is haram prove it from the Quran. Your books aren't good enough for me. You know that. Provide clear proof.

Aren't you the same person who refused to accept an authentic Shi'i hadith by way of Imam Jafar as-Sadiq (ra) which declared those who refuse to pay Zakat as apostates and therefore condemned them to death?

If you can turn your back on your own Imam (ra), like your Kufan forefathers, there is no point discussing with you.


Quote
And misyar marriage isn't acceptable to some of your scholars. Some accept it and some don't. Some say it is halal and some consider it haram. I think you need to sort out your back yard first and get your house in order then discuss.

Scholars differ on it because it can be misused, as people have done, and are doing, so!


Quote
We don't accept that. Again there's difference in opinion and different statements of who banned it. But no reason has been given to why it was banned till yet. What was the reason and purpose for it to be banned. WHY?

Great! 

Whatever happened to "we hear and we obey".  Clearly, the Holy Prophet (saw) banning it is not enough for Shias.  Way to follow the Jews!


Quote
There's different sides to that story. But lets stick to that. Prove that that was misyar marriage. Prove to me it was practiced during the Prophet's s.a.w time.

No different sides to the story!  The most authentic reports say that the Holy Prophet (saw) married Aisha (ra) when she was 6 and he took her to his house when she attained the age of 9.

Clear-cut example of misyaar!  Don't you wish you had such clear-cut evidence for Imamah?


Quote
Oh it very well is. Denying a fact won't get you anywhere.

lol desperate much?
"Our coward ran from those in authority" - Iceman (admitting the truth regarding his 12th Imam)

Adil

Re: BBC to post undercover mutah documentary
« Reply #19 on: November 12, 2019, 11:42:12 PM »
Firstly, giving up some rights e.g. the right to accommodation, isn't the same as a 1 day or whatever length temporary marriage. It's not even comparable. If you want to go make a documentary about misyar then by all means go ahead.

Secondary mutah is prevalent in shia societies, so much so that even non-shias know about it and it's connection to shiaism. Whereas misyar is not even known to the average sunni, I rarely ever come across misyar marriage being talked about without the person who started the conversation being a shia who was weakly trying trying to defend mutah and then resorted to "oh but what about misyar!"

Shias deep down know mutah is awful, if you described it to a non-Muslim then they'd call it either prostitution or a 1 night stand. They'll defend it all day long until someone wants mutah with their sister or daughter.

 

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