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BBC to post undercover mutah documentary

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muslim720

Re: BBC to post undercover mutah documentary
« Reply #20 on: November 12, 2019, 11:48:55 PM »
If you want to go make a documentary about misyar then by all means go ahead.

Exactly!  We will welcome it wholeheartedly.  The real question is this: why are the Shias, including Iceman, embarrassed and troubled by this documentary if mut'ah is such a blessed act?


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Whereas misyar is not even known to the average sunni, I rarely ever come across misyar marriage being talked about without the person who started the conversation being a shia who was weakly trying trying to defend mutah and then resorted to "oh but what about misyar!"

Great point, again!  The first time I heard about misyaar was from an online Shia.


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Shias deep down know mutah is awful, if you described it to a non-Muslim then they'd call it either prostitution or a 1 night stand. They'll defend it all day long until someone wants mutah with their sister or daughter.

BOOM!
"Our coward ran from those in authority" - Iceman (admitting the truth regarding his 12th Imam)

iceman

Re: BBC to post undercover mutah documentary
« Reply #21 on: November 13, 2019, 12:13:11 AM »
Exactly!  We will welcome it wholeheartedly.  The real question is this: why are the Shias, including Iceman, embarrassed and troubled by this documentary if mut'ah is such a blessed act?


Great point, again!  The first time I heard about misyaar was from an online Shia.


BOOM!

Like I said. There's no chance of a civilised and decent and on the subject discussion with your kind. Can't answer and explain yourself then start getting sarcastic and personal. That's you. Boom what ever. You can't trigger me. 😊

iceman

Re: BBC to post undercover mutah documentary
« Reply #22 on: November 13, 2019, 12:21:30 AM »
Firstly, giving up some rights e.g. the right to accommodation, isn't the same as a 1 day or whatever length temporary marriage. It's not even comparable. If you want to go make a documentary about misyar then by all means go ahead.

Secondary mutah is prevalent in shia societies, so much so that even non-shias know about it and it's connection to shiaism. Whereas misyar is not even known to the average sunni, I rarely ever come across misyar marriage being talked about without the person who started the conversation being a shia who was weakly trying trying to defend mutah and then resorted to "oh but what about misyar!"

Shias deep down know mutah is awful, if you described it to a non-Muslim then they'd call it either prostitution or a 1 night stand. They'll defend it all day long until someone wants mutah with their sister or daughter.

All I can say is get some knowledge and information, go do some homework and learn and get to know first so you boys don't need to embarrass yourselves. No one would want a mut'ah with anyone's sister or daughter. Has anyone or would anyone come over to you themselves and want a nikah with your sisters or daughters. Has that ever happened or will it ever happen. Mut'ah isn't something you want it's something you do. And there is a procedure and method for it. There are guidelines and principles. I've already been through this on this site and dealt with what ever nonsense was thrown. Don't behave like an immature adult or a naive person.

iceman

Re: BBC to post undercover mutah documentary
« Reply #23 on: November 13, 2019, 12:27:02 AM »
Firstly, giving up some rights e.g. the right to accommodation, isn't the same as a 1 day or whatever length temporary marriage. It's not even comparable. If you want to go make a documentary about misyar then by all means go ahead.

Secondary mutah is prevalent in shia societies, so much so that even non-shias know about it and it's connection to shiaism. Whereas misyar is not even known to the average sunni, I rarely ever come across misyar marriage being talked about without the person who started the conversation being a shia who was weakly trying trying to defend mutah and then resorted to "oh but what about misyar!"

Shias deep down know mutah is awful, if you described it to a non-Muslim then they'd call it either prostitution or a 1 night stand. They'll defend it all day long until someone wants mutah with their sister or daughter.

"They'll defend it all day long until someone wants mutah with their sister or daughter"

It was practiced during the Prophet's s.a.w time. This is something you can't run or escape from. When it was practiced during the Prophet's s.a.w time were people's sisters and daughters demanded for it. And how did they react. Care to explain yourself. Can you boys explain anything. It was practiced during the Prophet's s.a.w time, why was it banned. Why was it prohibited. What was the reason and cause.

iceman

Re: BBC to post undercover mutah documentary
« Reply #24 on: November 13, 2019, 12:35:35 AM »
What difference does it make when it was your supporting evidence that made that claim?

It wasn't my supporting evidence. Don't play dumb and blind. I said "is this true" before the quote. Mut'ah was practiced during the Prophet's s.a.w time. There was no hoo haa about it then. He banned it but why and what for. What was the reason and purpose. And you can't come up with anything. You don't have the faintest. You can't justify the ban on Mu'tah and you can't justify the practice on misyar. Your scholars are divided over misyar to such an extent that some deem it halal and others see it haram. Please get your house in order first then jump up and down. Getting sarcastic or personal with me hasn't worked in the past and surely won't work now. Try and be civilised and decent. I know it's not within your nature to be when it comes to us Shias.

iceman

Re: BBC to post undercover mutah documentary
« Reply #25 on: November 13, 2019, 12:38:45 AM »
"No different sides to the story!  The most authentic reports say that the Holy Prophet (saw) married Aisha (ra) when she was 6 and he took her to his house when she attained the age of 9.

Clear-cut example of misyaar!"

Ok lets have it your way. My first point. You said,

"I am not worried about the parallels.  What differentiates one from the other is that there is no expiration date.  In other words, there is no intent to divorce after a certain period of time which is what makes misyaar halaal (although discouraged by our scholars) and mut'ah haraam.

Not this bit,

(although discouraged by our scholars) and mut'ah haraam.

So the Prophet's s.a.w marriage to Aisha was a clear cut example of misyaar. But it's something that's discouraged by your scholars? So the Prophet s.a.w did something which is DISCOURAGED by your scholars? Honestly you make me laugh.

My second point, in misyaar the woman gives up some of her rights. And the man is free from certain responsibility. In the Prophet's s.a.w example can you explain this. Was the Prophet's s.a.w marriage to Aisha really misyar or was it nikah and ruksati later. You really need to do some homework.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2019, 12:50:10 AM by iceman »

Adil

Re: BBC to post undercover mutah documentary
« Reply #26 on: November 13, 2019, 01:37:51 AM »
"They'll defend it all day long until someone wants mutah with their sister or daughter"

It was practiced during the Prophet's s.a.w time. This is something you can't run or escape from. When it was practiced during the Prophet's s.a.w time were people's sisters and daughters demanded for it. And how did they react. Care to explain yourself. Can you boys explain anything. It was practiced during the Prophet's s.a.w time, why was it banned. Why was it prohibited. What was the reason and cause.

It's as you implied - it was allowed at one point and then it was banned. Just like how Muslims were allowed to alcohol and then it was banned. Just like how Muslim women could marry kuffar at one point and then it was banned. Who's running away, this is so easy to understand.

What reason was officially given for it to be banned? I don't know. It is enough for me to know that it was banned and follow that law.

From the outset can I see problems with mutah though? Yes I can. It's a very easy way to sleep around, have 1 night stands, mask prostitution, abuse girls etc... I'm sure deep down you as a shia can see problems with mutah too but you can't talk against it because it would mean dissing your religion and that's a very hard thing for your mind to do as you've followed shiaism for your entire life. But for the rest of us who have no love for shiaism, we can easily point out the bad problems of mutah.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2019, 01:45:22 AM by Adil »

iceman

Re: BBC to post undercover mutah documentary
« Reply #27 on: November 13, 2019, 02:04:58 AM »
It's as you implied - it was allowed at one point and then it was banned. Just like how Muslims were allowed to alcohol and then it was banned. Just like how Muslim women could marry kuffar at point and then it was banned. Who's running away, this is so easy to understand.

"What reason was officially given for it to be banned? I don't know. It is enough for me to know that it was banned and follow that law"

We don't think it was banned. Certainly not by Muhammad s.a.w. May be by one of the rulers after Muhammad s.a.w for God knows why.

"From the outset can I see problems with mutah though"

Then why was it allowed during the Prophet's s.a.w time. What problems can you see that the people of that time couldn't.


"Yes I can. It's a very easy way to sleep around, have 1 night stands, mask prostitution, abuse girls etc..."

And when it was practiced during the Prophet's s.a.w time the same issues and concerns you mentioned were also then. Were they not. What was so different then than now.


"I'm sure deep down you as a shia can see problems with mutah too but you can't talk against it because it would meaning dissing your religion and that's a very hard thing for your mind to do"

No not at all. But allow me to rephrase this.

"I'm sure deep down you as a Sunni know that Mu'tah was halal and practiced during the Prophet's s.a.w time. And there were no issues or concerns regarding it then. But the second ruler after Muhammad s.a.w banned it for god knows what now you as Sunni are struggling to justify the ban.

"But for the rest of us who have no love for shiaism, we can easily point out the bad problems of mutah"

Just as you have no love for Shiaism I have no hate for your belief and faith. I'm just not a Sunni of your kind due to the double standards and the hypocritical stance that runs in the foundation of your belief and faith. I'm not a person who defends and protects certain Companions regardless. And then I'm also not who  criticises and condemns certain Companions regardless.

"Any man alive who is happy to follow such a practice and would be happy with his daughters or his sister or his mother doing mutah is a man who is living a wretched existence"

It was practiced during the Prophet's s.a.w time and for what ever reason and purpose it was practiced then that is exactly what we believe in now. Our position and stance is exactly the same as it was during the Prophet's s.a.w time. You can use what ever language or words you want just to create emotional situation to try and get your desired result and response.


It's as you implied - it was allowed at one point and then it was banned. Just like how Muslims were allowed to alcohol and then it was banned. Just like how Muslim women could marry kuffar at point and then it was banned. Who's running away, this is so easy to understand.

"What reason was officially given for it to be banned? I don't know. It is enough for me to know that it was banned and follow that law"

We don't think it was banned. Certainly not by Muhammad s.a.w. May be by one of the rulers after Muhammad s.a.w for God knows why.

"From the outset can I see problems with mutah though"

Then why was it allowed during the Prophet's s.a.w time. What problems can you see that the people of that time couldn't.


"Yes I can. It's a very easy way to sleep around, have 1 night stands, mask prostitution, abuse girls etc..."

And when it was practiced during the Prophet's s.a.w time the same issues and concerns you mentioned were also then. Were they not. What was so different then than now.


"I'm sure deep down you as a shia can see problems with mutah too but you can't talk against it because it would meaning dissing your religion and that's a very hard thing for your mind to do"

No not at all. But allow me to rephrase this.

"I'm sure deep down you as a Sunni know that Mu'tah was halal and practiced during the Prophet's s.a.w time. And there were no issues or concerns regarding it then. But the second ruler after Muhammad s.a.w banned it for god knows what now you as Sunni are struggling to justify the ban.

"But for the rest of us who have no love for shiaism, we can easily point out the bad problems of mutah"

Just as you have no love for Shiaism I have no hate for your belief and faith. I'm just not a Sunni of your kind due to the double standards and the hypocritical stance that runs in the foundation of your belief and faith. I'm not a person who defends and protects certain Companions regardless. And then I'm also not who  criticises and condemns certain Companions regardless.

"Any man alive who is happy to follow such a practice and would be happy with his daughters or his sister or his mother doing mutah is a man who is living a wretched existence"

It was practiced during the Prophet's s.a.w time and for what ever reason and purpose it was practiced then that is exactly what we believe in now. Our position and stance is exactly the same as it was during the Prophet's s.a.w time. You can use what ever language or words you want just to create emotional situation to try and get your desired result and response.

[/quote]

"It's as you implied - it was allowed at one point and then it was banned"

What was the reason and purpose of the ban. In other words why was it banned.

"Just like how Muslims were allowed to alcohol and then it was banned"

When were Muslims allowed alcohol?

"Just like how Muslim women could marry kuffar at point and then it was banned"

When and where were Muslim women allowed to marry kuffar.

"Who's running away, this is so easy to understand"

Ok, if it's that easy then explain. Don't be afraid.

iceman

Re: BBC to post undercover mutah documentary
« Reply #28 on: November 13, 2019, 02:12:21 AM »

Rationalist

Re: BBC to post undercover mutah documentary
« Reply #29 on: November 13, 2019, 04:13:01 AM »
https://youtu.be/wXLUOrhtxk4

In the end he calls Muta a Sunnah. What is the proof it is a Sunnah? In fact, 12er Shia books states that Imam Jafar said keep muta out of Madina. So his response is just giving one view, and not the different views within the schools which say Muta is halaal.
Another point is the narration where Imam Ali (as) says its halaal has a  broken chain. In fact, this narration is really from Abdullah ibn Abbas (ra).
« Last Edit: November 13, 2019, 04:14:24 AM by Rationalist »

muslim720

Re: BBC to post undercover mutah documentary
« Reply #30 on: November 14, 2019, 06:51:00 AM »
Like I said. There's no chance of a civilised and decent and on the subject discussion with your kind.

Civilized discussions are held with civilized people.  You violate every principle of a civilized and intellectual discussion to get a reaction and then blame us for reacting.  No exaggeration but this might be the tenth time that I have to remind you of the golden rule: don't want nothing, don't start nothing!


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Can't answer and explain yourself then start getting sarcastic and personal.

I showed you a clear-cut example of misyaar from the life of the Holy Prophet (saw).

I will not plug the holes in your argument and supporting evidence (such as the quote you blindly copy-pasted which says that mut'ah is same as misyaar in "some aspects".....it is for you to discuss those aspects).


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It wasn't my supporting evidence. Don't play dumb and blind. I said "is this true" before the quote.

You are terrible at discussing and even worse at lying.  You were not querying.  You were trying to make a point by asking me if I would "also love the BBC to make a documentary on MISYAR MARRIAGE  AS WELL" GIVEN THAT it is same as mut'ah in "some aspects" as per the supporting evidence you quoted from Wikipedia.

So, in short, here is what your argument was in plain English: Misyaar is like mut'ah in some aspects, as per the quote from Wikipedia.  Would you (Muslim720) want BBC to make a documentary on it?


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Mut'ah was practiced during the Prophet's s.a.w time. There was no hoo haa about it then. He banned it but why and what for. What was the reason and purpose. And you can't come up with anything. You don't have the faintest.

We hear and we obey so when the Holy Prophet (saw) bans something, it is sufficient for us.  We will gladly let you and all those within your madhhab follow in the footsteps of Children of Israel to question, harass and object to Prophets (asws).


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So the Prophet's s.a.w marriage to Aisha was a clear cut example of misyaar. But it's something that's discouraged by your scholars? So the Prophet s.a.w did something which is DISCOURAGED by your scholars? Honestly you make me laugh.

The scholars discourage us from practicing misyaar; they do not deem misyaar to be discouraged.  It is a technical point too heavy for your unintelligent brain which was recently subjected to Muharram beatings.

Polygamy - for example - is halaal, however, scholars may discourage certain people from practicing it, irrespective of the law of the land.  It is not for everyone, certainly not to be misused.  Similarly, misyaar can be misused (as you rightly pointed out by Saudis) which is why scholars discourage us from practicing it.

That been said, misyaar is a permanent marriage and during the period of living separately (when spouses forego their rights), a couple can agree on no intimacy therefore in essence, it is not rooted in lust whereas mut'ah is temporary marriage only to satisfy the lustful.
"Our coward ran from those in authority" - Iceman (admitting the truth regarding his 12th Imam)

iceman

Re: BBC to post undercover mutah documentary
« Reply #31 on: November 14, 2019, 09:37:40 PM »
In the end he calls Muta a Sunnah. What is the proof it is a Sunnah? In fact, 12er Shia books states that Imam Jafar said keep muta out of Madina. So his response is just giving one view, and not the different views within the schools which say Muta is halaal.
Another point is the narration where Imam Ali (as) says its halaal has a  broken chain. In fact, this narration is really from Abdullah ibn Abbas (ra).

And what about verses he mentioned from the Quran. And the other points he made. Do you just pick and choose on what to answer and address.

Rationalist

Re: BBC to post undercover mutah documentary
« Reply #32 on: November 15, 2019, 12:01:55 AM »
And what about verses he mentioned from the Quran. And the other points he made. Do you just pick and choose on what to answer and address.

Yes he made some good points. Muta in the past was really a Sunni vs Sunni issue. Then those views died  which supported it, and then it became a Sunni vs 12er Shia issue. I don't think its haraam. We are living in a different time when seeing naked women in normal.

iceman

Re: BBC to post undercover mutah documentary
« Reply #33 on: November 15, 2019, 01:58:59 AM »
Civilized discussions are held with civilized people.  You violate every principle of a civilized and intellectual discussion to get a reaction and then blame us for reacting.  No exaggeration but this might be the tenth time that I have to remind you of the golden rule: don't want nothing, don't start nothing!


I showed you a clear-cut example of misyaar from the life of the Holy Prophet (saw).

I will not plug the holes in your argument and supporting evidence (such as the quote you blindly copy-pasted which says that mut'ah is same as misyaar in "some aspects".....it is for you to discuss those aspects).


You are terrible at discussing and even worse at lying.  You were not querying.  You were trying to make a point by asking me if I would "also love the BBC to make a documentary on MISYAR MARRIAGE  AS WELL" GIVEN THAT it is same as mut'ah in "some aspects" as per the supporting evidence you quoted from Wikipedia.

So, in short, here is what your argument was in plain English: Misyaar is like mut'ah in some aspects, as per the quote from Wikipedia.  Would you (Muslim720) want BBC to make a documentary on it?


We hear and we obey so when the Holy Prophet (saw) bans something, it is sufficient for us.  We will gladly let you and all those within your madhhab follow in the footsteps of Children of Israel to question, harass and object to Prophets (asws).


The scholars discourage us from practicing misyaar; they do not deem misyaar to be discouraged.  It is a technical point too heavy for your unintelligent brain which was recently subjected to Muharram beatings.

Polygamy - for example - is halaal, however, scholars may discourage certain people from practicing it, irrespective of the law of the land.  It is not for everyone, certainly not to be misused.  Similarly, misyaar can be misused (as you rightly pointed out by Saudis) which is why scholars discourage us from practicing it.

That been said, misyaar is a permanent marriage and during the period of living separately (when spouses forego their rights), a couple can agree on no intimacy therefore in essence, it is not rooted in lust whereas mut'ah is temporary marriage only to satisfy the lustful.

"Civilized discussions are held with civilized people"

You've got that right. Your thinking about Shias and their faith is neither civilised nor humane. So your attitude towards us and behaviour about us is crystal clear. So your spot on there.

"You violate every principle of a civilized and intellectual discussion"

Evidence. You got anything to back that claim up.

"to get a reaction and then blame us for reacting"

For example. An example would be nice. Otherwise you're talking wind mate.

"No exaggeration but this might be the tenth time that I have to remind you of the golden rule"

Show me those ten times. Ok just show me five out of the ten times. Don't tell me this is just another one of your 'figure of speech' only.

"don't want nothing, don't start nothing"

We don't start anything. We don't give two monkeys about what you believe in and practice. It's you and your kind that are always worried and concerned about us. We beat our chests and you feel the pain. We have made an addition to the Azaan and Iqamah and your screaming as though your going to get hanged etc etc. Get a life.

"I showed you a clear-cut example of misyaar from the life of the Holy Prophet (saw)"

Which you said that your scholars discourage. Your scholars differ over the misyar marriage. Some say it's halal and fine. Others say it's haram and wrong therefore accusing the Prophet s.a.w of haram and wrong. Astagfirullah! Like I said get your house in order first. Your scholars have a huge difference over this misyar.

"it is same as mut'ah in "some aspects" as per the supporting evidence you quoted from Wikipedia"

Before quoting I asked if it was true. So how is that supporting evidence. Don't play blind.

"We hear and we obey so when the Holy Prophet (saw) bans something, it is sufficient for us"

You believe he banned it and we don't. That's the difference. You need to prove to us that something that was halal and allowed was made haram and banned by giving us a clear reason and explanation by telling us why. This is mentioned in Muslim and that is mentioned in Bukhari ain't good enough. Because a lot of things are said and mentioned in your so called authentic books which you don't accept yourself. It's pick and choose. That's your policy.

"The scholars discourage us from practicing misyaar"

Really. You give me a clear and cut example of misyar 'the nikah of Prophet s.a.w and Aisha' and your scholars discourage you from what the Prophet s.a.w did.

People it seems like this is exactly what the Sunni belief is all about. So who's mocking the Prophet s.a.w.

"Polygamy - for example - is halaal, however, scholars may discourage certain people from practicing it, irrespective of the law of the land.  It is not for everyone, certainly not to be misused.  Similarly, misyaar can be misused (as you rightly pointed out by Saudis) which is why scholars discourage us from practicing it"

Now you're getting there. Mut'ah is halal. It was practiced during the Prophet's s.a.w time. And wasn't banned during the Prophet's s.a.w time. Because there is no clear cut reason and explanation for it to be banned. It is not for everyone and certainly not to be misused. Mut'ah is not something where men and boys go around knocking people's doors asking if they can do mut'ah with there sisters or daughters and then get smacked in their face. It is their for those who seem the need for it. It's not something that you go around asking or demanding. It's for extreme or special circumstances. It's not a normal thing or practice. There are circumstances plus rules and regulations for it along with a procedure and method. Exactly the same as how and why it was during the Prophet's s.a.w time. Hurray and three cheers for those rulers who came after Muhammad s.a.w and made changes here and there.

"whereas mut'ah is temporary marriage only to satisfy the lustful"

Ok, all of a sudden you have a problem with that. Why was it practiced during the Prophet's s.a.w time. Was that the only reason then.

Adil

Re: BBC to post undercover mutah documentary
« Reply #34 on: November 17, 2019, 03:32:51 AM »
I think ice man is really struggling to understand the concept whereby something was once allowed but then later on banned in the lifetime of the Prophet (pbuh). I try to give other examples of things which went through the same concept such as alcohol or Muslim women married with non-Muslim men but he seems to think we are all in some deep conspiracy to just deny mutah for whatever reason.

Sure twelver shias don't believe it got banned. But that is a flaw in twelver shiaism. And that's why we highlight it, it is so easy to see why mutah is wrong but twelver shias tend to push it as some noble act. If they rejected it then it wouldn't be too long before other parts of twelverism would crumble in their eyes.

muslim720

Re: BBC to post undercover mutah documentary
« Reply #35 on: November 17, 2019, 05:29:07 AM »
Evidence. You got anything to back that claim up.

Name me one time you made a valid point to any single member here.  Just one!


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Show me those ten times. Ok just show me five out of the ten times. Don't tell me this is just another one of your 'figure of speech' only.

It is easier to point to your intelligent posts, than idiotic ones, since there isn't a single intelligent post (from you) in existence.


Quote
We don't start anything. We don't give two monkeys about what you believe in and practice. It's you and your kind that are always worried and concerned about us. We beat our chests and you feel the pain. We have made an addition to the Azaan and Iqamah and your screaming as though your going to get hanged etc etc. Get a life.

Easy there!  We are not losing sleep over BBC making a documentary on an "act of Sunnah" for which every drop of water you bathe in turns into 70,000 angels asking for forgiveness for you.


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Which you said that your scholars discourage. Your scholars differ over the misyar marriage. Some say it's halal and fine. Others say it's haram and wrong therefore accusing the Prophet s.a.w of haram and wrong.

Discouraged for people based on their circumstances, not discouraged as an act.  Please show me which scholar declares misyaar haraam.


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"it is same as mut'ah in "some aspects" as per the supporting evidence you quoted from Wikipedia"

Before quoting I asked if it was true. So how is that supporting evidence. Don't play blind.

Because your entire purpose was to find out if I would support a documentary on misyaar given that it is similar in "some aspects" to mut'ah, as per the statement you quoted. 


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Because a lot of things are said and mentioned in your so called authentic books which you don't accept yourself. It's pick and choose. That's your policy.

For example?  Name me one!  And don't be like your boyfriend T110 to make lofty claims and then disappear.


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Really. You give me a clear and cut example of misyar 'the nikah of Prophet s.a.w and Aisha' and your scholars discourage you from what the Prophet s.a.w did.

Our scholars discourage us from misyaar for the reason that it can be misused.


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So who's mocking the Prophet s.a.w.

The despicable ones who claim to love the Holy Prophet (saw) and his family (ra) while cursing his wives (ra) and closest Companions (ra).


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Now you're getting there. Mut'ah is halal.

Relax mut'ah boy!  All I was trying to highlight was the fact that sometimes what is halaal can also be discouraged, like polygamy.


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Mut'ah is not something where men and boys go around knocking people's doors asking if they can do mut'ah with there sisters or daughters and then get smacked in their face.

Yeah, mut'ah makes it easier than that.  Men and boys go to your masaajid and learning centers in Iran, Iraq and elsewhere to ask for women.  It is prostitution legitimized and facilitated by mosques. 


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It is their for those who seem the need for it. It's not something that you go around asking or demanding. It's for extreme or special circumstances. It's not a normal thing or practice. There are circumstances plus rules and regulations for it along with a procedure and method.

All lies!  Clearly you need to watch the documentary and if I were to pick between your scholars and you, I would pick the former to learn about Shiaism.


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Ok, all of a sudden you have a problem with that. Why was it practiced during the Prophet's s.a.w time. Was that the only reason then.

As soon as the Holy Prophet (saw) banned it, we had a problem with it.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2019, 05:31:00 AM by muslim720 »
"Our coward ran from those in authority" - Iceman (admitting the truth regarding his 12th Imam)

iceman

Re: BBC to post undercover mutah documentary
« Reply #36 on: November 19, 2019, 01:43:18 AM »
I think ice man is really struggling to understand the concept whereby something was once allowed but then later on banned in the lifetime of the Prophet (pbuh). I try to give other examples of things which went through the same concept such as alcohol or Muslim women married with non-Muslim men but he seems to think we are all in some deep conspiracy to just deny mutah for whatever reason.

Sure twelver shias don't believe it got banned. But that is a flaw in twelver shiaism. And that's why we highlight it, it is so easy to see why mutah is wrong but twelver shias tend to push it as some noble act. If they rejected it then it wouldn't be too long before other parts of twelverism would crumble in their eyes.

I think ice man is really struggling to understand the concept whereby something was once allowed but then later on banned in the lifetime of the Prophet (pbuh)"

Don't go by what you THINK or ASSUME. That's your problem. Go by reasoning and explanation based on reality and facts.

"I try to give other examples of things which went through the same concept such as alcohol or Muslim women married with non-Muslim men"

Yes you gave examples which aren't based on Islamic facts. Before Muhammad s.a.w declared his Messenger Islam did exist and Muslims were around. Nobody was allowed to do this or that. People did it because they moved away from the concept of the only and one true God and the Shariah law that applied. Nothing was allowed before and then banned after. The final revelation and Messenger pbuh was brought about because majority went astray and became misguided.
 
"but he seems to think we are all in some deep conspiracy to just deny mutah for whatever reason"

You aren't in deep conspiracy and I can confirm that. You just can't justify the slightest of why something was allowed then all of a sudden it was banned and why. You can't come up with anything. That's the problem. NO EXPLANATION!


"Sure twelver shias don't believe it got banned. But that is a flaw in twelver shiaism"

Your claim it's a flaw. But you can't back it up. It's a complete misunderstanding in your belief that it was banned all of a sudden and out of the blue. You can't give a single reason to why.

"And that's why we highlight it, it is so easy to see why mutah is wrong"

If it's that blooming easy then why are you struggling to explain it.

"but twelver shias tend to push it as some noble act"

It's a noble act for those who are going to end up sinning or in a permanent marriage with huge responsibility and commitment if they ain't ready for it.

"If they rejected it then it wouldn't be too long before other parts of twelverism would crumble in their eyes"

We can't react as you want to what ever you say and put forward. Just give us a logical and reasonable explanation and understanding to why was it all of a sudden and out of the blue banned.

iceman

Re: BBC to post undercover mutah documentary
« Reply #37 on: November 19, 2019, 02:16:04 AM »
Name me one time you made a valid point to any single member here.  Just one!


It is easier to point to your intelligent posts, than idiotic ones, since there isn't a single intelligent post (from you) in existence.


Easy there!  We are not losing sleep over BBC making a documentary on an "act of Sunnah" for which every drop of water you bathe in turns into 70,000 angels asking for forgiveness for you.


Discouraged for people based on their circumstances, not discouraged as an act.  Please show me which scholar declares misyaar haraam.


Because your entire purpose was to find out if I would support a documentary on misyaar given that it is similar in "some aspects" to mut'ah, as per the statement you quoted. 


For example?  Name me one!  And don't be like your boyfriend T110 to make lofty claims and then disappear.


Our scholars discourage us from misyaar for the reason that it can be misused.


The despicable ones who claim to love the Holy Prophet (saw) and his family (ra) while cursing his wives (ra) and closest Companions (ra).


Relax mut'ah boy!  All I was trying to highlight was the fact that sometimes what is halaal can also be discouraged, like polygamy.


Yeah, mut'ah makes it easier than that.  Men and boys go to your masaajid and learning centers in Iran, Iraq and elsewhere to ask for women.  It is prostitution legitimized and facilitated by mosques. 


All lies!  Clearly you need to watch the documentary and if I were to pick between your scholars and you, I would pick the former to learn about Shiaism.


As soon as the Holy Prophet (saw) banned it, we had a problem with it.

"Name me one time you made a valid point to any single member here. Just one"

First answer then ask. Everytime you're asked something you react without answering.

"It is easier to point to your intelligent posts, than idiotic ones, since there isn't a single intelligent post (from you) in existence"

You can't back your claims. You won't answer anything you're asked. You can't explain yourself. You're accusations turn out to be baseless because you can't provide any evidence when asked. Then this is exactly how you're going to come out to make yourself look good and confident.

"Easy there!  We are not losing sleep over BBC making a documentary on an "act of Sunnah" for which every drop of water you bathe in turns into 70,000 angels asking for forgiveness for you"

You've been losing more than just sleep for almost 1400 years now and that is along with your ancestors over Shiaism.

"Discouraged for people based on their circumstances, not discouraged as an act"

Explain yourself. I know you can't. Because you never can when asked.


"Because your entire purpose was to find out if I would support a documentary on misyaar given that it is similar in "some aspects" to mut'ah, as per the statement you quoted"

And again before quoting it I asked if it was true.

"For example?  Name me one!  And don't be like your boyfriend T110 to make lofty claims and then disappear"

We don't do and believe in boyfriends. We're different then you.


"Our scholars discourage us from misyaar for the reason that it can be misused"

Any reference. You've never backed anything you've said.

"The despicable ones who claim to love the Holy Prophet (saw) and his family (ra) while cursing his wives (ra) and closest Companions (ra)"

Take a look at your books. Then read and examine satanic verses and you'll know and understand where Rushdie got the material for his book.

"Relax mut'ah boy!  All I was trying to highlight was the fact that sometimes what is halaal can also be discouraged, like polygamy"

I'm relaxed son. You take it easy now misyar kid. Don't get too personal and carried away.

"Yeah, mut'ah makes it easier than that.  Men and boys go to your masaajid and learning centers in Iran, Iraq and elsewhere to ask for women.  It is prostitution legitimized and facilitated by mosques"

I've never seen and witnessed what you're saying. And you know my mosques, learning centres and my community and people more than me. Well you're living on a different planet than the rest of us.


"All lies!"

PROVE IT! You ain't proved or backed anything till yet.

"Clearly you need to watch the documentary and if I were to pick between your scholars and you, I would pick the former to learn about Shiaism"

I don't need to watch anything. I'm familiar with the BBC. I know my religion, faith, community and people. I don't need you or the BBC or anyone else to tell or show me.


"As soon as the Holy Prophet (saw) banned it, we had a problem with it"

Prove that he banned it. What was the problem. Why did he banned it.

iceman

Re: BBC to post undercover mutah documentary
« Reply #38 on: November 20, 2019, 12:36:41 AM »
I don't know how true or exact this is,

Shaykh al-Albaani was asked about Misyaar marriage and he disallowed it for two reasons:

(i) That the purpose of marriage is repose as Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): “And among His Signs is this, that He created for you wives from among yourselves, that you may find repose in them, and He has put between you affection and mercy. Verily, in that are indeed signs for a people who reflect” [al-Room 30:21]. But this is not achieved in this kind of marriage.

(ii) It may be decreed that the husband has children with this woman, but because he is far away from her and rarely comes to her, that will be negatively reflected in his children’s upbringing and attitude.

See: Ahkaam al-Ta’addud fi Daw’ al-Kitaab wa’l-Sunnah (p. 28, 29).

What is Nikah Misyar, and is this kind of Marriage Permitted according to Shari’a?
<QUESTION>
What is a Nikah Misyar? Is this kind of marriage permitted according to Shari’a?

<ANSWER>
In the name of Allah, Most Compassionate, Most Merciful,
The term “Nikah Misyar” (translated sometimes as “travellers’ marriage” or “marriage of convenience”) is not found in the Qur’an, Sunna or classical works of Islamic jurisprudence. It is a term that has been introduced recently by those discussing a specific type of matrimonial arrangement. However, the concept of such an arrangement can be found being discussed in the works of classical Muslim jurists (fuqaha).

Misyar Marriage between Shari`ah texts, Realities and scholars’ Fatawa’: An Analysis
Noor Mohammad Osmani
Assistant Professor, Department of Qur?an and Sunnah Studies, IRKHS, IIUM
DOI: https://doi.org/10.3329/iiucs.v7i0.12495
Keywords: Marriage, Misyar, shari`ah, fatawa, realities
Abstract

Marriage is a sacred bond in Islam that ties a man and a woman into a lifelong relationship of love, compassion, mutual understanding, respect and security. It is a firm pledge that one makes in the name of Allah for one-another. Misyar marriage, Convenience marriage or Travelers marriage is a new form of marriage practiced widely in Saudi Arabia, Egypt and other gulf states.

The Misyar bride sacrifices some of her marital rights, such as expenses, fixed duration, and an abode. The scholars in Islam have different opinions about this form of marriage. Some of them supported it vehemently, as it could reduce the number of ladies without husbands; while yet others strongly oppose it, as it sounds like part-time wives, which has no roots in Islamic heritage.

The present study therefore aims to explore the real status of Misyar or convenience marriage in the texts from the Quran, Prophets Sunnah, the practices of his rightly guided Companions and the Fatawa of the traditional and modern scholars. It would analyze them in the light of the current realities and situations prevailing in many countries of the Muslim world.

The study would adopt a critical yet objective approach in dealing with the issue. It is believed that the study would help the Muslim men and women to have clear insights on the issue based on the Shari`ah texts, scholars Fatawa and present day realities.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2019, 12:44:37 AM by iceman »

GreatChineseFall

Re: BBC to post undercover mutah documentary
« Reply #39 on: November 20, 2019, 08:53:10 AM »
What was the problem. Why did he banned it.

Actually there is a funny response to this. Mut’ah was allowed for the Companions due to necessity as Ibn ‘Abbas explained. However there is a high risk of abuse with great consequences in society. The response is then simple:
The Prophet(saws) trusted the Companions in general to not abuse it and he trusted no generation afterwards in general. So that proves the ‘Adala of the Companions in general and disproves it for any other generation(like as Sadiq’s Companions) in general.

 

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