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Did Sistani believe in moving of Verses?

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Bolani Muslim

Did Sistani believe in moving of Verses?
« on: March 03, 2015, 11:11:53 PM »
Salaam, this picture has been going around the internet and I wanted to see if anyone had any evidence for it.

Hani

Re: Did Sistani believe in moving of Verses?
« Reply #1 on: March 03, 2015, 11:27:52 PM »
It has some typos like "Zain bin Thabit" or "As for as" ... This is not strange though, a lot of Shia scholars believe in the corruption of the order of verses.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Bolani Muslim

Re: Did Sistani believe in moving of Verses?
« Reply #2 on: March 03, 2015, 11:30:22 PM »
My parents believes in the corruption of order, but the new generation of shias here say that no shia scholar ever believed in it  :-\

Hadrami

Re: Did Sistani believe in moving of Verses?
« Reply #3 on: March 04, 2015, 12:07:27 AM »
My parents believes in the corruption of order, but the new generation of shias here say that no shia scholar ever believed in it  :-\

so whatever chapter they are reciting could be incorrect and yet the imam didnt do anything to correct it. Failed.

Husayn

Re: Did Sistani believe in moving of Verses?
« Reply #4 on: March 04, 2015, 02:44:24 AM »
Does it really matter what each individual Shia scholar believes or says?

The fact is that they have so many narrations stating the Qur'an was changed that rejecting them would be rejecting the entire sect.

And people need to understand that what Shia scholars say in public is almost never what they say in private.
إن يتبعون إلا الظن وما تهوى الأنفس

Furkan

Re: Did Sistani believe in moving of Verses?
« Reply #5 on: March 04, 2015, 05:25:11 AM »
We should just pust all 80+ years old shiite people in one room and have an interview with them and record it. We ask questions like: Do you believe in tahreef? What did you learn about this when you were young? Who teached you all of this?

The answers would be totally different if we asked those questions to some teenagers.
Before Qazî Mihemed, President of the first kurdish Republic Mahabad was hanged the iranian judge asked:

“last words?”

Qazî: “I thank Allah: even in death he put my shoes above your heads”

Hadrami

Re: Did Sistani believe in moving of Verses?
« Reply #6 on: March 04, 2015, 07:27:29 AM »
Does it really matter what each individual Shia scholar believes or says?

The fact is that they have so many narrations stating the Qur'an was changed that rejecting them would be rejecting the entire sect.

And people need to understand that what Shia scholars say in public is almost never what they say in private.

bro bolani once said he was told by a shia scholar that Sunni only say AS to yazid. i reckon there are shia who truly don't believe in tahrif because their scholars lied at them.  Im sure there are many shia scholars who won't even admit it in private. They probably will only do that once theyre sure youre a "pious" (aka extremist) shia.

labelingtheory

Re: Did Sistani believe in moving of Verses?
« Reply #7 on: March 10, 2015, 10:57:24 AM »
Does it really matter what each individual Shia scholar believes or says?

The fact is that they have so many narrations stating the Qur'an was changed that rejecting them would be rejecting the entire sect.

And people need to understand that what Shia scholars say in public is almost never what they say in private.

bro bolani once said he was told by a shia scholar that Sunni only say AS to yazid. i reckon there are shia who truly don't believe in tahrif because their scholars lied at them.  Im sure there are many shia scholars who won't even admit it in private. They probably will only do that once theyre sure youre a "pious" (aka extremist) shia.

There is no doubt that there are sunni sheikhs that respect Yazid. Secondly, I really doubt a shia scholar claimed that all sunnis say that because even I know sunnis who dislike the ummayads because they killed the grandson of the Prophet.

Hadrami

Re: Did Sistani believe in moving of Verses?
« Reply #8 on: March 10, 2015, 11:39:39 AM »
bro bolani once said he was told by a shia scholar that Sunni only say AS to yazid. i reckon there are shia who truly don't believe in tahrif because their scholars lied at them.  Im sure there are many shia scholars who won't even admit it in private. They probably will only do that once theyre sure youre a "pious" (aka extremist) shia.

There is no doubt that there are sunni sheikhs that respect Yazid.

whats yazid got to do with shia scholars who belief al-Qur'an is corrupt?

Secondly, I really doubt a shia scholar claimed that all sunnis say that because even I know sunnis who dislike the ummayads because they killed the grandson of the Prophet.

taqiyah is 9/10 of shia religion, its shudnt be hard to believe shia scholar often lie

labelingtheory

Re: Did Sistani believe in moving of Verses?
« Reply #9 on: March 10, 2015, 11:59:30 AM »
He just mentioned yazid so I was replying to him.

As for the belief of tahrif, if the majority of shia ulema deny it the fact remains that people here would still accuse shias of taqqiyah. taqqiyah is about saving your life, not about lying whenever you want, its in the quran and all muslims believe in it.
 
The vast majority of shias scholars never believed in tahrif.

There are sahih hadith from your books that show sunnis believe in tahrif. The difference between shia hadith and your hadith is that shias do not claim any book to be 100% perfect except for the qur'an.

Hadrami

Re: Did Sistani believe in moving of Verses?
« Reply #10 on: March 10, 2015, 12:19:11 PM »
He just mentioned yazid so I was replying to him.

As for the belief of tahrif, if the majority of shia ulema deny it the fact remains that people here would still accuse shias of taqqiyah. taqqiyah is about saving your life, not about lying whenever you want, its in the quran and all muslims believe in it.
 
The vast majority of shias scholars never believed in tahrif.

There are sahih hadith from your books that show sunnis believe in tahrif. The difference between shia hadith and your hadith is that shias do not claim any book to be 100% perfect except for the qur'an.

so the typical "not everything in our books is authentic" excuse. The only problem is the ahadith where imam said Qur'an is corrupted are authentic & many of shia great scholars acknowledged its true. But the main problem is that those scholars who believe in tahrif are the great scholars whom shia rely on.

If someone deny shia imam is considered astray even disbelievers and yet shia scholars who deny Quran preservation even though Allah say He will preserve it are not astray, but respected and called great scholars.

Thats shiaism mind you :)

MuslimK

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  • یا مقلب القلوب ثبت قلبی علی دینک
    • Refuting Shia allegations everywhere
  • Religion: Sunni
Re: Did Sistani believe in moving of Verses?
« Reply #11 on: March 10, 2015, 12:45:16 PM »
The vast majority of shias scholars never believed in tahrif.

Salam Alaikum brother,

Many of the founders of your sect believed in the corruption of Quran. This is fact!

Quote
There are sahih hadith from your books that show sunnis believe in tahrif. 
You quoted one narration and you were refuted. If you have more narrations, quote them on that thread of yours.

Sunnis believe that anyone who says that Quran has been corrupted is out of Islam. However, Shia scholars don't agree with this statement for obvious reasons.

Quote
The difference between shia hadith and your hadith is that shias do not claim any book to be 100% perfect except for the qur'an.

It is not just about the books it is also about the belief and opinion of your top scholars about the Quran.
در خلافت میل نیست ای بی‌خبر
میل کی آید ز بوبکر و عمر
میل اگر بودی در آن دو مقتدا
هر دو کردندی پسر را پیشوا

عطار نِیشابوری

www.Nahjul-Balagha.net | www.TwelverShia.net | www.ghadirkhumm.com

labelingtheory

Re: Did Sistani believe in moving of Verses?
« Reply #12 on: March 10, 2015, 01:40:22 PM »
He just mentioned yazid so I was replying to him.

As for the belief of tahrif, if the majority of shia ulema deny it the fact remains that people here would still accuse shias of taqqiyah. taqqiyah is about saving your life, not about lying whenever you want, its in the quran and all muslims believe in it.
 
The vast majority of shias scholars never believed in tahrif.

There are sahih hadith from your books that show sunnis believe in tahrif. The difference between shia hadith and your hadith is that shias do not claim any book to be 100% perfect except for the qur'an.

so the typical "not everything in our books is authentic" excuse. The only problem is the ahadith where imam said Qur'an is corrupted are authentic & many of shia great scholars acknowledged its true. But the main problem is that those scholars who believe in tahrif are the great scholars whom shia rely on.

If someone deny shia imam is considered astray even disbelievers and yet shia scholars who deny Quran preservation even though Allah say He will preserve it are not astray, but respected and called great scholars.

Thats shiaism mind you :)

No the majority of those hadith aren't sahih. There are some that are sahih and shais interpret them to mean that if the hadith is true.... it is talking about the meaning that the tafsir of qur'an has changed, not the actual verses themselves.

Again the vast majority of shia scholars are against it, today and even in the past.


Your second paragraph isn't true. Do shias call christians and jews kaffirs? No they are people of the book. Sunnis are still Muslims, only people who are presented the truth and reject it are kaffirs.

Let us assume what you are saying is true, lets assume a few shia scholars do believe in it. Isn't it much worse that your sahih books proclaim tahrif compared to a few shia scholars?

labelingtheory

Re: Did Sistani believe in moving of Verses?
« Reply #13 on: March 10, 2015, 01:42:01 PM »
The vast majority of shias scholars never believed in tahrif.

Salam Alaikum brother,

Many of the founders of your sect believed in the corruption of Quran. This is fact!

Quote
There are sahih hadith from your books that show sunnis believe in tahrif. 
You quoted one narration and you were refuted. If you have more narrations, quote them on that thread of yours.

Sunnis believe that anyone who says that Quran has been corrupted is out of Islam. However, Shia scholars don't agree with this statement for obvious reasons.

Quote
The difference between shia hadith and your hadith is that shias do not claim any book to be 100% perfect except for the qur'an.

It is not just about the books it is also about the belief and opinion of your top scholars about the Quran.

No, its not true. You act as if the majority of scholars believed in it and that isn't true at all.

How can one refute a point of mine if it is sahih Muslim that claims tahrif occurred? Either you admit sahih muslim is not a sahih book or you admit that tahrif occured.

MuslimK

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  • +19/-0
  • یا مقلب القلوب ثبت قلبی علی دینک
    • Refuting Shia allegations everywhere
  • Religion: Sunni
Re: Did Sistani believe in moving of Verses?
« Reply #14 on: March 10, 2015, 03:29:18 PM »

No, its not true. You act as if the majority of scholars believed in it and that isn't true at all.

You act as if none of your classical scholars believed in the corruption of Quran.

Great number of your classical scholars believed in the corruption of the Quran. They are the leaders of your sect. On top of that, you have thousands of narrations about the corruption of the Quran that are Mutawatir in your books falsely attributed to Ahlulbayt just like narrations of Imamah.

Quote
How can one refute a point of mine if it is sahih Muslim that claims tahrif occurred? Either you admit sahih muslim is not a sahih book or you admit that tahrif occured.

Then quote them on that thread of yours.
در خلافت میل نیست ای بی‌خبر
میل کی آید ز بوبکر و عمر
میل اگر بودی در آن دو مقتدا
هر دو کردندی پسر را پیشوا

عطار نِیشابوری

www.Nahjul-Balagha.net | www.TwelverShia.net | www.ghadirkhumm.com

Khaled

Re: Did Sistani believe in moving of Verses?
« Reply #15 on: March 10, 2015, 04:51:16 PM »
No, its not true. You act as if the majority of scholars believed in it and that isn't true at all.

How can one refute a point of mine if it is sahih Muslim that claims tahrif occurred? Either you admit sahih muslim is not a sahih book or you admit that tahrif occured.
السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته,

I wanted to share this quote that I find fascinating from ash-Shaykh al-Mufeed which he writes on page 52 of "Awaa'il al-Maqaalaat":

اتفقت الإمامية على وجوب الرجعة... واتفقوا على أن أئمة الضلال خالفوا في كثير من تأليف القرآن، وعدلوا فيه بموجب التنزيل وسنة النبي صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم، وأجمعت المعتزلة والخوارج والزيدية والمرجئة وأصحاب الحديث على خلاف الإمامية

"The Imamiyyah (12er Shias) agreed that doctrine of reincarnation (i.e. that certain people will be brought back to life; either to honor like the Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم and his Aal al-Bayt رضي الله عنهم, or to humiliate them like most of the Companions رضي الله عنهم) ... they also agreed that the Imams of Misguidance (i.e. Abu Bakr, Umar and Uthman as well as the rest of the Companions who were involved in compiling the Qur'an) opposed how the Qur'an was put together, and they went against what is necessary from the Revelation and the Sunnah of the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم.  And the Mu'tazilah, Zaydiyah, Murji'ah, and the Companions of Hadeeth ALL came to a consensus opposing the Imaamiyyah."

This quote is interesting for several reasons:

1. I'll leave that they have an agreement on al-Raj'ah/Reincarnation of the dead Companions رضي الله عنهم speak for itself.
2. He refers to 3 of the most important Companions as Imams of Misguidance.
3.  The Imamiyyah agrees that the Qur'an has been tampered with (after the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم's death).
4. EVERY other sect in Islam (including the Murji'ah and the Ahl al-Hadeeth, i.e. the Hanafis and the Shafi'ees, i.e. Ahl as-Sunnah) opposed the Shi'a on the issue of Tahreef.
5. The Zaydis also don't believei in Tahreef.

Remember, this is al-Mufeed who is like a Ghazaali or an Ibn Taymiyyah رحمهما الله for the Shi'a, and he admits that the 12ers believe in Tahrif and everyone else doesn't.

The average Shi'ee has to really think about this long and hard بارك الله فيكم; how come al-Mufeed confirms that the Sunnis believe the Qur'an has NOT been tampered with despite knowing all of the supposed ahadeeth that confirm tampering in Bukhari/Muslim?
« Last Edit: March 10, 2015, 04:53:13 PM by Khaled »
كلُّ سُلامى من الناس عليه صدقة كلَّ يوم تطلع فيه الشمس، تَعدلُ بين اثنين صدقة، وتعين الرَّجل في دابَّته فتحمله عليها أو ترفع له عليها متاعَه صدقة، والكلمةُ الطيِّبة صدقة، وبكلِّ خطوة تَمشيها إلى الصلاة صدقة، وتُميط الأذى عن الطريق صدقة

Khaled

Re: Did Sistani believe in moving of Verses?
« Reply #16 on: March 10, 2015, 05:04:25 PM »
No, its not true. You act as if the majority of scholars believed in it and that isn't true at all.

I wanted to add one more quote إن شاء الله that I find really relevant to this topic.  Ni3mat Allai al-Jazaa'ri says in al-Anwar al-Nu3maaniyyah Volume 2, pages 360-362:

 
قد استفاض في الأخبار أن القرآن كما أنزل لم يؤلفه إلا أمير المؤمنين عليه السلام بوصية من النبي، فبقي بعد موته ستة أشهر مشتغلاً بجمعه فلما جمعه كما أنزل أتى به إلى المتخلفين بعد رسول الله فقال لهم: هذا كتاب الله كما أنزل فقال له عمر بن الخطاب: لا حاجة بنا إليك ولا إلى قرآنك، عندنا قرآن كتبه عثمان. فقال لهم علي: لن تروه بعد اليوم ولا يراه أحد حتى يظهر ولدي المهدي عليه السلام. وفي ذلك القرآن زيادات كثيرة وهو خال من التحريف

It has been overwhelming mentioned in the reports that the Qur'an as it was revelead was not compiled except by Amir al-Mu'mineen عليه السلام by the order of the Prophet (translator's note: he said عليه السلام after Ali's name but didn't say صلى الله عليه وسلم after mentioning the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم).  He remained for 6 months after his death occupied with compiling the Qur'an.  So when he compiled it like how it was revealed, he brought it to the "backward ones" (translator's note: he's using a play on words because the word sounds like Khulafaa) after Allah's Messenger and he said to them, "This is Allah's book like it was revealed."  So Omar bin Al-Khattaab said to him, "We don't have a need for you or your Qur'aan, we have a Qur'aan that Othman wrote."  So Ali said to them, "you will never see this and no one will ever see it until my son the Madhi عليه السلام appears."

Why is this report so amazing?
1. Proof that it has been reported by the 12ers that Qur'an has been distorted to the point that the reports are overwhelming.
2. That Ali رضي الله عنه compiled a different Qur'an than the one we have today.
3.  That he رضي الله عنه said that no ONE will ever see it until the Mahdi comes.  I.e. no one has seen it since then, Sunni or Shi'ee.
4.  That Shi'ee scholars are so desperate that they make a story like this which is clearly false, because Uthman didn't compile the Qur'an into book form until after the death of Omar رضي الله عنه let alone six months after the death of the Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم.

والله تعالى أعلى وأعلم
كلُّ سُلامى من الناس عليه صدقة كلَّ يوم تطلع فيه الشمس، تَعدلُ بين اثنين صدقة، وتعين الرَّجل في دابَّته فتحمله عليها أو ترفع له عليها متاعَه صدقة، والكلمةُ الطيِّبة صدقة، وبكلِّ خطوة تَمشيها إلى الصلاة صدقة، وتُميط الأذى عن الطريق صدقة

 

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