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convert and question - former Shia

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labelingtheory

Re: convert and question
« Reply #20 on: February 21, 2015, 12:49:23 PM »
Doing the little research that I could in english it appears that the Shi'a scholars of his time disagreed with his
conclusion regarding the alteration of Quran. This shows that the Shi'a scholars strongly believed nothing is missing from Quran.

Hani

Re: convert and question
« Reply #21 on: February 21, 2015, 02:02:31 PM »
Doing the little research that I could in english it appears that the Shi'a scholars of his time disagreed with his
conclusion regarding the alteration of Quran. This shows that the Shi'a scholars strongly believed nothing is missing from Quran.


You said: "find me a reliable scholar that says shias believe in another Qur'an."

I found you one.

Do you wish for me to find you another? Because I can easily find you another.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

labelingtheory

Re: convert and question
« Reply #22 on: February 21, 2015, 02:45:58 PM »
Doing the little research that I could in english it appears that the Shi'a scholars of his time disagreed with his
conclusion regarding the alteration of Quran. This shows that the Shi'a scholars strongly believed nothing is missing from Quran.


You said: "find me a reliable scholar that says shias believe in another Qur'an."

I found you one.

Do you wish for me to find you another? Because I can easily find you another.

I mean you can if you want, I have never heard of tabarsi (maybe because of my own ignorance). Again, my point is that the vast vast vast majority of shias do not believe in tahreef. So why generalize the whole sect?

 

Ameen

Re: convert and question
« Reply #23 on: February 21, 2015, 04:31:05 PM »
TO YOU.

Simple, question: What do you mean by "changed"? What did he change?

What do you mean??? Are you paying attention??? Brother Siamak said that Shias believe Hazrath Usman (ra) changed the Quran. I replied that Shias do not believe in this. This is not the core belief of the Shia and this is not part of Shiaism. People have their thought, opinion and point of view based on individual level. And this is how it should be seen.

Even you turn around and say that so and so Lebanese Shia Shaikh said this and that Shia scholar said that. Brother don't cherry pick statements and views of people on an individual level and use it to label and target the entire Shia faith and community.

It doesn't matter whether you are a Shia or Sunni, Muslim or not your individual and personal views belong to you and has nothing to do with your sect, religion or community. People need to stop labelling and targeting sects and communities just because of the statements and views of certain individuals.

Is there anything difficult to understand here??? Shias do not believe in Tehreef e Quran and do not believe that anyone changed or altered the Quran. If this isn't simple and straight forward then I don't know what is.

Ameen

Re: convert and question
« Reply #24 on: February 21, 2015, 05:00:33 PM »
Doing the little research that I could in english it appears that the Shi'a scholars of his time disagreed with his
conclusion regarding the alteration of Quran. This shows that the Shi'a scholars strongly believed nothing is missing from Quran.


You said: "find me a reliable scholar that says shias believe in another Qur'an."

I found you one.

Do you wish for me to find you another? Because I can easily find you another.

Ok, lets look at this from a different angle. How many Shia scholars believe in Tehreef e Quran and how many don't??? It is a core belief of the Shia and vast majority do not believe in Tehreef e Quran. Those one or two odd scholars or individuals who do, what has that got to do with all the rest of us???

This is propaganda, to get hold of statements and views of one or two odd scholars or individuals and try to pinpoint and target the entire Shia faith and community over this. We don't do this and we neither practice this. Why are you so disparate???

Ameen

Re: convert and question
« Reply #25 on: February 21, 2015, 05:03:34 PM »
Doing the little research that I could in english it appears that the Shi'a scholars of his time disagreed with his
conclusion regarding the alteration of Quran. This shows that the Shi'a scholars strongly believed nothing is missing from Quran.


You said: "find me a reliable scholar that says shias believe in another Qur'an."

I found you one.

Do you wish for me to find you another? Because I can easily find you another.

I mean you can if you want, I have never heard of tabarsi (maybe because of my own ignorance). Again, my point is that the vast vast vast majority of shias do not believe in tahreef. So why generalize the whole sect?

 

"So why generalise the whole sect"??? The answer is, PROPAGANDA! Otherwise if there is another reason to this then I would like to here it.

Hani

Re: convert and question
« Reply #26 on: February 21, 2015, 10:13:02 PM »
I mean you can if you want, I have never heard of tabarsi (maybe because of my own ignorance). Again, my point is that the vast vast vast majority of shias do not believe in tahreef. So why generalize the whole sect?
 

Well, he's the author of one your eight main books, along with the first three Muhammadeen and the last three Muhammadeen.

How about Majlisi? Jaza'iri? `Ali bin Ibrahim al-Qummi? Janabidhi? etc...

Any of these names rings a bell?
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Hadrami

Re: convert and question
« Reply #27 on: February 22, 2015, 01:53:56 AM »
I mean you can if you want, I have never heard of tabarsi (maybe because of my own ignorance). Again, my point is that the vast vast vast majority of shias do not believe in tahreef. So why generalize the whole sect?
 

Well, he's the author of one your eight main books, along with the first three Muhammadeen and the last three Muhammadeen.

How about Majlisi? Jaza'iri? `Ali bin Ibrahim al-Qummi? Janabidhi? etc...

Any of these names rings a bell?

take it easy bro. you can tell hes just another ameen who doesnt know much about his own religion or hes practising 9/10 of his religion aka lying :)

labelingtheory

Re: convert and question
« Reply #28 on: February 22, 2015, 09:23:49 AM »
I mean you can if you want, I have never heard of tabarsi (maybe because of my own ignorance). Again, my point is that the vast vast vast majority of shias do not believe in tahreef. So why generalize the whole sect?
 

Well, he's the author of one your eight main books, along with the first three Muhammadeen and the last three Muhammadeen.

How about Majlisi? Jaza'iri? `Ali bin Ibrahim al-Qummi? Janabidhi? etc...

Any of these names rings a bell?

Even though your point doesn't really make a difference, can you at least show me sources in english?

Again I can find sunni sheikhs that support ISIS, great sunni sheikhs that said terrible things about Ali (ra), and other terrible things.... does that mean all Sunnis believe in these things? Of course not.

Stop claiming that all or even the majority of shias believe in tahreef when its not true. I mean two can play at that game.... all sunnis practice misyar.

Furkan

Re: convert and question
« Reply #29 on: February 22, 2015, 03:18:55 PM »
Hani, I suggest you fire the whole magazine.
Before Qazî Mihemed, President of the first kurdish Republic Mahabad was hanged the iranian judge asked:

“last words?”

Qazî: “I thank Allah: even in death he put my shoes above your heads”

Rationalist

Re: convert and question
« Reply #30 on: February 22, 2015, 04:25:59 PM »

Stop claiming that all or even the majority of shias believe in tahreef when its not true. I mean two can play at that game.... all sunnis practice misyar.
The issue is the majority doesn't declare the 12ers who believe the Quran to be incomplete to be kaffirs.

Quote
Even though your point doesn't really make a difference, can you at least show me sources in english?
Here you go.

http://www.revivingalislam.com/2010/09/hadeeth-17000-verses-in-quraan-saheeh.html

Ameen

Re: convert and question
« Reply #31 on: February 22, 2015, 08:22:12 PM »
I mean you can if you want, I have never heard of tabarsi (maybe because of my own ignorance). Again, my point is that the vast vast vast majority of shias do not believe in tahreef. So why generalize the whole sect?
 

Well, he's the author of one your eight main books, along with the first three Muhammadeen and the last three Muhammadeen.

How about Majlisi? Jaza'iri? `Ali bin Ibrahim al-Qummi? Janabidhi? etc...

Any of these names rings a bell?

take it easy bro. you can tell hes just another ameen who doesnt know much about his own religion or hes practising 9/10 of his religion aka lying :)

Just another Ameen who doesn't know much about his own religion??? Here we go again! You sound so desperate. I don't know my self but you seem to know me better??? Wow! Some ideology we have here. Ok, I am a human but if you say that I'm an alien and are hell bent on believing in it then, what more can I say or do apart from leaving you with it.

Hadrami

Re: convert and question
« Reply #32 on: February 23, 2015, 01:25:27 AM »
so what if people see you as either ignorant about shitism or lying through your teeth Ameen?

Id love to think no shia in this information age would be as ignorant & clueless about shitism as you. So me saying youre pretending not to know is like saying youre not a liar :) Cheer up

labelingtheory

Re: convert and question
« Reply #33 on: February 23, 2015, 06:33:14 AM »

Stop claiming that all or even the majority of shias believe in tahreef when its not true. I mean two can play at that game.... all sunnis practice misyar.
The issue is the majority doesn't declare the 12ers who believe the Quran to be incomplete to be kaffirs.

Quote
Even though your point doesn't really make a difference, can you at least show me sources in english?
Here you go.

http://www.revivingalislam.com/2010/09/hadeeth-17000-verses-in-quraan-saheeh.html

So let me get this straight, you post a million times how shias believe in tahreef but say that's not the main point?  You are spreading false propaganda, half the threads on this forum people are claiming that shias believe in tahreef because of your lies.

The problem here is that you want to label everyone outside of Islam who doesn't agree with you. Do you know how big of a sin it is to claim other muslims to be kaffirs? Even ibn taymiyyah (who was hypocritical about this issue) said takfirism is one of the biggest sins of all time.


And about your source, I am not a hadith expert. There are two explanations I have found on the matter.

If the hadith is correct, then it is talking about the commentary that was also revealed to the prophet (pbuh). Again, tahreef of the verses of Qur'an is a complete lie. The vast vast vast vast majority of shia scholars do not believe in tahreef.

Another explanation I have researched says that the hadith is not correct, and here is the reasoning.

Kulaini was never alive to meet Ali ibn Al-Hakam

He died in 329H and he was born in the second half of the third century. There was nearly 50 years between his birth and death of imam ridha (as)

Hakam was a comapnion of Ridha (as) who died in 203H

It would be impossible for Kulaini to narrate from Al-Righa without a wasita and sometimes two more than one wasita like this hadith from al kafi.


Regardless if the hadith is true or not, Shias do not believe in Tahreef... stop being A sunni version of Fox news and spreading lies.

Your arguments are weak.

Bolani Muslim

Re: convert and question
« Reply #34 on: February 23, 2015, 09:03:46 AM »
^So what do you think of Majlisi now? Anyhow, I think this is a good read. http://twelvershia.net/2014/02/19/response-to-hadeeth-17000-verses-in-the-quraan-saheeh/

labelingtheory

Re: convert and question
« Reply #35 on: February 23, 2015, 09:17:54 AM »
^So what do you think of Majlisi now? Anyhow, I think this is a good read. http://twelvershia.net/2014/02/19/response-to-hadeeth-17000-verses-in-the-quraan-saheeh/

You didn't even read my post.

1. Why do you accept weak hadith and portray all shias as practicing it?
2. Even your buddy on the forum admitted that shias do not practice tahreef.
3. Sunni scholars also believe in Tahreef -> Link to hadith below
Sunan Ibn Majah, Book of Nikah.
Narrated Aisha 'The verse of stoning and of suckling an adult ten times were revealed, and they were (written) on a paper and kept under my bed. When the Messenger of Allah (SAWW.) expired and we were preoccupied with his death, a goat entered and ate away the paper."

4. Why did you leave shiasm, because you listen to strangers on the internet on forums and facebook? Honestly half the stuff you post against shiasm is from blogs, and the stuff you learned from shiasm is probably from satellite channels.
 
5. Why not read about shiasm from real sources, not people like fadallah who aren't even considered ayatollahs by 99% of shia scholars. All of your knowledge you have from shias are from weak hadith, and I am doubting to believe your story of "converting", because I have no idea how you can believe the stuff you are spewing.

Hadrami

Re: convert and question
« Reply #36 on: February 23, 2015, 09:40:05 AM »
^So what do you think of Majlisi now? Anyhow, I think this is a good read. http://twelvershia.net/2014/02/19/response-to-hadeeth-17000-verses-in-the-quraan-saheeh/

You can show this one, it's from shitism scholar's mouth. One of shia greatest scholar said the proofs for belief in tahrif is as many as belief in imamah. Still you hear shia saying they don't belief in such a stuff  :D

« Last Edit: February 23, 2015, 09:45:05 AM by Hadrami »

labelingtheory

Re: convert and question
« Reply #37 on: February 23, 2015, 10:06:17 AM »
^So what do you think of Majlisi now? Anyhow, I think this is a good read. http://twelvershia.net/2014/02/19/response-to-hadeeth-17000-verses-in-the-quraan-saheeh/

You can show this one, it's from shitism scholar's mouth. One of shia greatest scholar said the proofs for belief in tahrif is as many as belief in imamah. Still you hear shia saying they don't belief in such a stuff  :D





Why don't you post the entire video, why just four minutes? Sayyid Kamal is criticizing Allamah al Majlisi if you watched the full video. Yes, the usual clips and crops by America-funded nasibi "RafidiTerminator" and the stupid sectarian salafis actually believe it. Good job Salafi Fox News.

Rationalist

Re: convert and question
« Reply #38 on: February 23, 2015, 10:09:59 AM »

And about Taqiyyah what is wrong with it? All muslims believe in Taqiyyah, it is in the Qur'an. Shias believe you can use it to save your life, just as the rest of muslims do.

Sunni and Shi'a commentators alike observe that verse 16:106 refers to the case of 'Ammar b. Yasir, who was forced to renounce his beliefs under physical duress and torture.

For the 12ers its not only for death situations. For them taqiyyah includes covering the hatred they have against Sunni Islam. Also, Al Khoie's fatwa permits that a 12er can lie in debates to promote his or her madhab.

labelingtheory

Re: convert and question
« Reply #39 on: February 23, 2015, 10:20:45 AM »

And about Taqiyyah what is wrong with it? All muslims believe in Taqiyyah, it is in the Qur'an. Shias believe you can use it to save your life, just as the rest of muslims do.

Sunni and Shi'a commentators alike observe that verse 16:106 refers to the case of 'Ammar b. Yasir, who was forced to renounce his beliefs under physical duress and torture.

For the 12ers its not only for death situations. For them taqiyyah includes covering the hatred they have against Sunni Islam. Also, Al Khoie's fatwa permits that a 12er can lie in debates to promote his or her madhab.

Show me the fatwa in english from a shia website, because honestly I don't trust your translation.

 

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