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Difference between abrogated and abrogating Qur'anic verses?

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Optimus Prime

Difference between abrogated and abrogating Qur'anic verses?
« on: January 06, 2015, 09:02:53 PM »
Are abrogated verses those that are no longer applicable to us, but were included in the Qur'an and abrogating, those that were not included in the final compilation from the time of Uthman (RA)?

Hani

Re: Difference between abrogated and abrogating Qur'anic verses?
« Reply #1 on: January 06, 2015, 09:09:15 PM »
-Abrogated verse are two kinds:


1)) Those that are still in Mushaf-ul-Imam.


2)) Those that were not included in Mushaf-ul-Imam and they are two kinds: A- Ones whose ruling and text were excluded from the Mushaf B- Ones whose text is only excluded but the ruling or meaning is still intact.


-Abrogating verses are any Qur'anic verse that updated or cancelled a ruling contained in an abrogated verse.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Optimus Prime

Re: Difference between abrogated and abrogating Qur'anic verses?
« Reply #2 on: January 06, 2015, 09:31:38 PM »
-Abrogated verse are two kinds:


1)) Those that are still in Mushaf-ul-Imam.


2)) Those that were not included in Mushaf-ul-Imam and they are two kinds: A- Ones whose ruling and text were excluded from the Mushaf B- Ones whose text is only excluded but the ruling or meaning is still intact.


-Abrogating verses are any Qur'anic verse that updated or cancelled a ruling contained in an abrogated verse.

Mushaf-ul-Imam, is the original manuscript of Uthman (RA), right?

So, abrogated verses are not in the Qur'an we have today?

For the ones that are NOT included in the Mushaf-ul-Imam, you said there are two kinds one where the verse and ruling were removed. Was it the Prophet (SAW) who authorised the abrogation of such verse and declared them not to be followed?

This topic is new to me, so bear with me, please.

Hani

Re: Difference between abrogated and abrogating Qur'anic verses?
« Reply #3 on: January 06, 2015, 09:39:58 PM »
No, I said abrogated verses are two kinds, some are in our Mushaf some aren't, and yes it's the Prophet (saw) who tells the Sahabah what Qur'an is to be written in the Suhuf.



عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Optimus Prime

Re: Difference between abrogated and abrogating Qur'anic verses?
« Reply #4 on: January 06, 2015, 09:45:01 PM »
No, I said abrogated verses are two kinds, some are in our Mushaf some aren't, and yes it's the Prophet (saw) who tells the Sahabah what Qur'an is to be written in the Suhuf.

Thanks for that clarification.

Tell me if I've got this, right.

The verses which, outlawed Alchohol in 3 different stages were/are abrogated verses and the abrogating verse in the Qur'an today forbids Alcohol altogether, yes?

Hani

Re: Difference between abrogated and abrogating Qur'anic verses?
« Reply #5 on: January 06, 2015, 09:47:19 PM »
Yes, and all three are still in the Qur'an. There's a lot of abrogated verses in the Qur'an last I checked, but they were ordered to write it so the Sahabah kept them.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Optimus Prime

Re: Difference between abrogated and abrogating Qur'anic verses?
« Reply #6 on: January 06, 2015, 10:03:58 PM »
Yes, and all three are still in the Qur'an. There's a lot of abrogated verses in the Qur'an last I checked, but they were ordered to write it so the Sahabah kept them.

Just clear up one more thing for me, akhi. Please be patient with me.

Ordered to write down at the point of revelation or to include it in the Suhuf?

I'm just confused. At the first instant when the verse is revealed it can't be regarded as abrogated verse yet you're saying the Prophet (SAW) ordered them to write it down?

Hani

Re: Difference between abrogated and abrogating Qur'anic verses?
« Reply #7 on: January 06, 2015, 10:36:04 PM »
They get abrogated later.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Optimus Prime

Re: Difference between abrogated and abrogating Qur'anic verses?
« Reply #8 on: January 06, 2015, 10:46:56 PM »
They get abrogated later.

Oh, I see. Jazak'Allah.

The abrogated verses where the text was excluded, but the meaning to still be accepted and acted upon - these were not included in Suhuf as you've stated, but how do we know the meaning or supposed to act upon it if it's no longer around? It makes sense for both to be excluded, but not one or the other?

Hani

Re: Difference between abrogated and abrogating Qur'anic verses?
« Reply #9 on: January 06, 2015, 10:52:02 PM »

Oh, I see. Jazak'Allah.

The abrogated verses where the text was excluded, but the meaning to still be accepted and acted upon - these were not included in Suhuf as you've stated, but how do we know the meaning or supposed to act upon it if it's no longer around? It makes sense for both to be excluded, but not one or the other?


Ask Farid about this, he said he read a book where the scholars said what the wisdom was behind this.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Optimus Prime

Re: Difference between abrogated and abrogating Qur'anic verses?
« Reply #10 on: January 06, 2015, 10:58:34 PM »
I hope Farid picks this up.

It'd be a nice to have a tag option in place. Thank you for filling me brother Hani. It's always a pleasure.

adnan42

Re: Difference between abrogated and abrogating Qur'anic verses?
« Reply #11 on: January 06, 2015, 11:19:02 PM »
They get abrogated later.

Oh, I see. Jazak'Allah.

The abrogated verses where the text was excluded, but the meaning to still be accepted and acted upon - these were not included in Suhuf as you've stated, but how do we know the meaning or supposed to act upon it if it's no longer around? It makes sense for both to be excluded, but not one or the other?

In case of abrogation in reciting and not ruling.
To test the believer if he truly have faith in prophet sinse the ruling will then come from sunnah and not quran.

In case of abrogation in ruling and not reciting.

To show his mercy on future generations.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2015, 11:22:24 PM by adnan42 »

Hani

Re: Difference between abrogated and abrogating Qur'anic verses?
« Reply #12 on: January 06, 2015, 11:22:40 PM »

To test the believer if he truly have faith in prophet sinse the ruling will then come from sunnah and not quran.


Correct, that's the biggest one I recall. Similarly to changing the Qiblah direction and so on.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

 

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