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Do you consider shias Muslim? How are your attitudes towards them?

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Anti_Shia_313

I think the title speaks for itself
Anti_Shia_313 is the nicest person you will ever meet, so full of joy and truth
when he finds out people are lying to him he does not like it- esp those heathens from Kufa who made stuff up

Sheikh

Re: Do you consider shias Muslim? How are your attitudes towards them?
« Reply #1 on: January 07, 2020, 02:07:19 PM »
I personally consider lay Shias to be Muslims and have no animosity towards them (unless they start some conflict).


I dunno about their scholars. I feel like they are, at the very least, manipulative because of khums.

iceman

Re: Do you consider shias Muslim? How are your attitudes towards them?
« Reply #2 on: January 08, 2020, 01:51:48 AM »
Do you consider Shia Muslims? Lets see, those who are illiterate, uneducated or I'll informed about Islam and the Muslims, those who aren't aware of the definition of a Muslim and who is a Muslim will come up with such a question. Now there are a few people on this site who are either uneducated and I'll informed about Shia Islam or just simply are full of hate about Shias, their opinion doesn't matter and is of no concern or effect. 😊

Adil

Re: Do you consider shias Muslim? How are your attitudes towards them?
« Reply #3 on: January 08, 2020, 02:33:58 AM »
Do you consider Shia Muslims? Lets see, those who are illiterate, uneducated or I'll informed about Islam and the Muslims, those who aren't aware of the definition of a Muslim and who is a Muslim will come up with such a question. Now there are a few people on this site who are either uneducated and I'll informed about Shia Islam or just simply are full of hate about Shias, their opinion doesn't matter and is of no concern or effect. 😊

You need to go have a word with shias on shiachat and with some of your scholars https://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235064510-unity-efforts-with-the-sunnis-wajib-mustahab-mubah-what-for/

Quote
Other than like Ayatollah Khamenei, have any of our other top scholars encouraged us Shias to go out of our way and make efforts for unity with them? What I do know is that according to the mainstraim shi'a view, Sunnis aren't considered "mo'mineen" as they reject the wilayah of Imam Ali (a). In addition to this, I do know that a few of our top scholars have even considered them as kafir and impure. If I'm not wrong, the great Sayyid al Khoei considered Sunnis outwardly tahir/Muslim but spiritually as kafir.

Quote
The most you can find in our literature is we should visit their sick ones, go to their funerals, and pray with them in Salat.

It can be argued that we can support each other with common political goals that benefit Islam.

But in terms of aqeeda, they are their own and we are our own. And yes what you said about not considering them believers and what the scholars have said about their status is true.

Adil

Re: Do you consider shias Muslim? How are your attitudes towards them?
« Reply #4 on: January 08, 2020, 02:54:53 AM »
I'm going to base my answer about twelver shia who make up the majority shia.

I consider their laymen Muslim. However I don't trust religious twelver shia. I've noticed that they consistently preach unity but the first chance they get to get an upper hand on sunnis, they will take it. And it doesn't seem to matter to them who they ally with to get this upper hand. Qadianis, extremely anti-Islam people, murtads, I have seen the member whoaretheshia here team up with all of them against sunnis. This seems to mirror real life too where Khamenei teamed up America to invade sunni ruled nations like Afghanistans and Iraq. Quite frankly religious twelver shia have the worst human attributes I have seen - backstabbing, deceit (mainly due to taqqiyah being encouraged), supporting murderers openly, helping enemies against non-twelver shia groups etc...

I know two properly in real life. One is outwardly religious. I got a long with him fairly well. Haven't seen them in a couple of years though. The religious one would do things like avoid praying jummah with us etc... And that's fine. But I imagine he did hold anti-sahaba views deep down as religious pakistani shias tend to aware of their religion. The other is very clever, I'm sure he has read up on his religion but his level of practicing is iffy. He never chats unity or politics and rarely does he talk about religion. Not sure where exactly he lies tbh. Maybe if I see them again then it might be worth having a chat about these issues.

I have gotten a long with irreligious twelver shia though and they even hated on ayotollahs with me. So that group I show more friendliness to. Though I have to admit my friendliness with them is a result of their ignorance of their own beliefs. But if they are ignorant of real shia beliefs and do not follow them then it's good.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2020, 03:02:38 AM by Adil »

Mythbuster1

Re: Do you consider shias Muslim? How are your attitudes towards them?
« Reply #5 on: January 08, 2020, 01:27:16 PM »
They are Muslims for sure........Muslims who have been led astray and who would rather follow their elders than make a move on finding out true Islam.
I have many pakistani Shiite friends I’m also Pakistani I’ve a few in my village in Pakistan as well as many here in uk and to be honest my experiences are exactly the same as Adil and muslim720 as well as many other brothers who have chatted/discussed or debated Shias.

They tend to rely on ambiguous obscure materials to defend shiism and to hate Sahaba ra, when I do confront them they either don’t wanna talk no more or that they haven’t any real knowledge and pass it off.

The ones online astaghfirullah I’ve had one shia years ago when I provided him verse of Quran simply said......”I don’t believe in the Quran you read”........he was Ameen!😜

I’ve got close friends who are shia and are not very religious but we are true friends and NEVER will they bring up anything about sahaba ra or ask any questions infact to them we are muslim.

I have noticed 1 thing tho especially with the Pakistani shia, all the year round they will play they will drink they will take hard drugs they will do anything bypassing ramadhan and jummahs until.........1st 10 days of Muharram arrive lol they will every night go to their places of worship and cry and mourn and then they will confront Sunnis as if their mullah has told them real truths.
All their emotions come out and the favourite line they love throwing is ......”you’ve been lied to your scholars are hiding truths” blah blah blah........until you state the facts.

A little bit of knowledge will work wonders against any shia.😉

iceman

Re: Do you consider shias Muslim? How are your attitudes towards them?
« Reply #6 on: January 08, 2020, 01:35:02 PM »
You need to go have a word with shias on shiachat and with some of your scholars https://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235064510-unity-efforts-with-the-sunnis-wajib-mustahab-mubah-what-for/

"You need to go have a word with shias on shiachat and with some of your scholars"

I don't need to. Why? Because I don't view and take Sunnis on the basis of a group, sect or just on the saying of a few Sunni scholars or certain bits and pieces from a few Sunni books.

Adil

Re: Do you consider shias Muslim? How are your attitudes towards them?
« Reply #7 on: January 08, 2020, 02:31:17 PM »
"You need to go have a word with shias on shiachat and with some of your scholars"

I don't need to. Why? Because I don't view and take Sunnis on the basis of a group, sect or just on the saying of a few Sunni scholars or certain bits and pieces from a few Sunni books.

They're showing takfiri mindsets or opinions. Thought you'd be concerned seeing as they're your brethren. Guess not.

Khaled

Re: Do you consider shias Muslim? How are your attitudes towards them?
« Reply #8 on: January 08, 2020, 07:57:47 PM »
I find the madhhab disturbing, almost as bad as the Khawarij, but they are certainly Muslims and have just as much potential to reach high levels of Iman or even Wilayah.  I've seen amazing Muslims from every madhhab, and I'm sure there are lots of Shi'as that I don't have access to that worship Allah and love his Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم just as much or more than any one else.

The problem with Shi'asm as a whole is exemplified by iceman; they promote their madhhab by attacking the rest of the Ummah.  I've never seen such a phenomenon by other madhahib, only pockets from each group here and there, but the 12ers are unified in that, to promote their madhhab, they need to attack the rest of the Ummah.  This in and of itself is the main problem with Shi'asm, for they can curse and wipe over their feet to their hearts contents, I really could care less.  Other than Ummahat al-Mu'mineen, I don't really feel anything when they curse the male Sahaba رضي الله عنهم because quite frankly, its just a childish reaction.  Top it off, there are non-Shi'is that have problems with some of the Sahaba (Abu Hurayrah, Muwaiyah and Khalid bin Waleed are the usual suspects) and we consider those people Muslims.  I still think Shaykh al-Islam ibn Taymiyah رحمه الله's position on this is the best:

Quote
This is a unique feature of the Rafidah Imamiyah (i.e. the belief in the infallibility of their Imams) which no one else agreed with them, not the Zaydi Shi’as, nor any of the other Islamic sects, except for who is worse than them such as the Ismailis who believe in the infallibility of Bani Ubayd, those who attribute themselves to Muhammad ibn Ismail ibn Jafar who believe that Imamah after Jafar is for Muhammad ibn Ismail, not Musa ibn Jafar.  They are mulahidah munafiqoon.

The 12er Imamis are much better than them, for the Imamiayh, despite their ignorance and misguidance, have among them a large group of Muslims inwardly and outwardly, are not zanadiqah munafiqeen, however they stay ignorant are misguided and follow their desires.  As for them (i.e. the Ismailis) then their major scolars who know the reality of their Batini Da’wah are Zanadiqah Munafiqoon.  As for their laymen who don’t know their affair, then they might be Muslim.
كلُّ سُلامى من الناس عليه صدقة كلَّ يوم تطلع فيه الشمس، تَعدلُ بين اثنين صدقة، وتعين الرَّجل في دابَّته فتحمله عليها أو ترفع له عليها متاعَه صدقة، والكلمةُ الطيِّبة صدقة، وبكلِّ خطوة تَمشيها إلى الصلاة صدقة، وتُميط الأذى عن الطريق صدقة

iceman

Re: Do you consider shias Muslim? How are your attitudes towards them?
« Reply #9 on: January 08, 2020, 08:18:50 PM »
They're showing takfiri mindsets or opinions. Thought you'd be concerned seeing as they're your brethren. Guess not.

"They're showing takfiri mindsets or opinions"

For example?

Adil

Re: Do you consider shias Muslim? How are your attitudes towards them?
« Reply #10 on: January 08, 2020, 09:04:52 PM »
This post from a pakistani journalist summarizes shias really well:

https://www.facebook.com/frozendilemma/posts/10219319479050681
Quote
An Indian friend of mine organised a peaceful protest in front of the Syrian embassy in New Delhi a few years ago. He told me then that he faced stiff resistance from the Shia community — but all the power to him that he managed it nevertheless. For years he has worked tirelessly to unite the Muslim community there and to rise above the Sunni/Shia divide. So no one in his right mind can level sectarian allegations at him.

That was past and regarding India so how about the present era and Pakistan?

You don't have to be an investigative journalist to do this. Just look at the comments anywhere under a news post on Facebook regarding Iran and Soleimani and you'll find Pakistanis lionising the war criminal. An overwhelming majority of those would be from one particular group.

And if you dared to point out some facts about Soleimani and how he recruited fighters from all over the world — including Pakistan and Afghanistan — to fight for Assad, you'd be labelled either an "ISIS supporter" or a "sectarian" individual.

Now, those are just ordinary people swayed by emotions you might say, so how about Pakistani journalists from that group?

Well, it pains me to say this but I have yet to find a journalist here who has no problem criticising Iran's imperialism.

They will be with you slamming Saudi Arabia (and I condemn Saudi war crimes in Yemen); they'll be with you criticising Turkey (and I condemn Turkish hypocrisies in the war in Syria); they'll be with you pointing out the UAE's disastrous role in the Middle East (and I condemn Emirates' crimes in Yemen and propping up dictators in the region); hell, they might even criticise with you the shadowy forces that call the shots in Pakistan (which I don't have to say get no quarter from me). But all objectivity will stop with Iran — as well as Assad — and you'll get excuses, explanations aplenty.

Therefore, the ones drenched in unabashed sectarianism themselves shouldn't be calling others 'sectarian' just because they can't introspect and rise above apologia.

There is no group amongst Muslims that supports oppression like the shia do.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2020, 09:07:24 PM by Adil »

Khaled

Re: Do you consider shias Muslim? How are your attitudes towards them?
« Reply #11 on: January 08, 2020, 09:09:20 PM »
"They're showing takfiri mindsets or opinions"

For example?

You don't have a problem with any of this?

Quote
...My question is, in our sharia, is unity with the Sunnis wajib (highly doubt it)? Mustahab? or Mubah? As far as I know, all that's said by our top scholars is that not insult or send la'an to their respected figures in front of their faces. Basically, our scholars have simply said to not create unnecessary friction with them, but this is isn't the same thing as saying to go and unite with them.

Other than like Ayatollah Khamenei, have any of our other top scholars encouraged us Shias to go out of our way and make efforts for unity with them? What I do know is that according to the mainstraim shi'a view, Sunnis aren't considered "mo'mineen" as they reject the wilayah of Imam Ali (a). In addition to this, I do know that a few of our top scholars have even considered them as kafir and impure. If I'm not wrong, the great Sayyid al Khoei considered Sunnis outwardly tahir/Muslim but spiritually as kafir.

... Should we not simply just co-exist with them like we do with other unbelievers?...

Quote
But in terms of aqeeda, they are their own and we are our own. And yes what you said about not considering them believers and what the scholars have said about their status is true.

Quote
As stated, some scholars do not consider them believers based on narrations.

So it's better to co-exist like we do with other humans. Unity can be achieved only when there's a common political goal not affecting our aqaed.

I just thought this was hilarious after all that has been written, so I'm just quoting it for the complete and utter lack of self awareness:

Quote
The Salafis and most Arab Sunnis will never accept unity anyway because they have way too many negative assumptions about the Shia. This type of bias is deeply rooted, and written in their book for hundreds of years.
This is all after quoting that their scholars don't consider non-12ers Muslims and some even consider us impure.  ::)

Quote
What is commonly preached in this day and age is often driven by social or political considerations rather than religious ones. The religious guideline is what the brother has written above and what other contributors to this thread have repeated and confirmed.

كلُّ سُلامى من الناس عليه صدقة كلَّ يوم تطلع فيه الشمس، تَعدلُ بين اثنين صدقة، وتعين الرَّجل في دابَّته فتحمله عليها أو ترفع له عليها متاعَه صدقة، والكلمةُ الطيِّبة صدقة، وبكلِّ خطوة تَمشيها إلى الصلاة صدقة، وتُميط الأذى عن الطريق صدقة

iceman

Re: Do you consider shias Muslim? How are your attitudes towards them?
« Reply #12 on: January 09, 2020, 01:14:55 AM »
I'm going to base my answer about twelver shia who make up the majority shia.

I consider their laymen Muslim. However I don't trust religious twelver shia. I've noticed that they consistently preach unity but the first chance they get to get an upper hand on sunnis, they will take it. And it doesn't seem to matter to them who they ally with to get this upper hand. Qadianis, extremely anti-Islam people, murtads, I have seen the member whoaretheshia here team up with all of them against sunnis. This seems to mirror real life too where Khamenei teamed up America to invade sunni ruled nations like Afghanistans and Iraq. Quite frankly religious twelver shia have the worst human attributes I have seen - backstabbing, deceit (mainly due to taqqiyah being encouraged), supporting murderers openly, helping enemies against non-twelver shia groups etc...

I know two properly in real life. One is outwardly religious. I got a long with him fairly well. Haven't seen them in a couple of years though. The religious one would do things like avoid praying jummah with us etc... And that's fine. But I imagine he did hold anti-sahaba views deep down as religious pakistani shias tend to aware of their religion. The other is very clever, I'm sure he has read up on his religion but his level of practicing is iffy. He never chats unity or politics and rarely does he talk about religion. Not sure where exactly he lies tbh. Maybe if I see them again then it might be worth having a chat about these issues.

I have gotten a long with irreligious twelver shia though and they even hated on ayotollahs with me. So that group I show more friendliness to. Though I have to admit my friendliness with them is a result of their ignorance of their own beliefs. But if they are ignorant of real shia beliefs and do not follow them then it's good.

Just personal opinion on one or two Shias.   And we're going to build a pictur

iceman

Re: Do you consider shias Muslim? How are your attitudes towards them?
« Reply #13 on: January 09, 2020, 01:40:19 AM »
Just personal opinion on one or two Shias.   And we're going to build a picture on that. This is kids stuff.

Rationalist

Re: Do you consider shias Muslim? How are your attitudes towards them?
« Reply #14 on: January 09, 2020, 06:53:26 AM »
They are very similar to our Jewish brothers and sisters. They have an entire history of persecution and a result can be fearful  around Sunnis or fearful to bluntly talk about their beliefs. Since they believe Saqifa was another Karbala, it is not possible to unite with them on religious terms. As for status I believe they are Muslims and even Momins. We all have our share of monafiqs on both sides. Generally the 12er Shia knows more about Sunni Islam in comparison to the Sunni Muslim knowing about 12er Shia Islam.

iceman

Re: Do you consider shias Muslim? How are your attitudes towards them?
« Reply #15 on: January 09, 2020, 02:10:11 PM »
They are very similar to our Jewish brothers and sisters. They have an entire history of persecution and a result can be fearful  around Sunnis or fearful to bluntly talk about their beliefs. Since they believe Saqifa was another Karbala, it is not possible to unite with them on religious terms. As for status I believe they are Muslims and even Momins. We all have our share of monafiqs on both sides. Generally the 12er Shia knows more about Sunni Islam in comparison to the Sunni Muslim knowing about 12er Shia Islam.
"Since they believe Saqifa was another Karbala, it is not possible to unite with them on religious terms"

Saqifa for Sunnis is more of a political issue rather than a religious one. For Shias it is a religious issue. You can unite with anyone if you have the will and desire. The Sunnis don't see Shias any different than them. Sunni Shias marriage was and is common within Arabs and Persians along with some other parts of the world. It's certain Sunnis that are causing unrest within the Muslim world by causing Sunni Shia tensions which is allowing the west to benefit from it.

"They have an entire history of persecution"

Correct. Persecution by whom?  Those Muslims who are in authority. Now if there is some kind of reaction somewhere along the line by some Shias then why be alarmed about it.

"Generally the 12er Shia knows more about Sunni Islam in comparison to the Sunni Muslim knowing about 12er Shia Islam"

Absolutely true. Let me add to this. The Shia Muslims are more aware of Sunni Islam then the Sunnis themselves. I speak to a lot of Sunnis who aren't even aware of matters such as the war of Zakat, the pen and paper incident etc and what the Sunni approach is on such matters.

Rationalist

Re: Do you consider shias Muslim? How are your attitudes towards them?
« Reply #16 on: January 09, 2020, 07:19:16 PM »
"Since they believe Saqifa was another Karbala, it is not possible to unite with them on religious terms"

Saqifa for Sunnis is more of a political issue rather than a religious one. For Shias it is a religious issue. You can unite with anyone if you have the will and desire. The Sunnis don't see Shias any different than them.
A unity based on safety and protection is needed. However a religious unity cannot be done.
Quote
Sunni Shias marriage was and is common within Arabs and Persians along with some other parts of the world.
This is no big deal. Marriage with people of the book is also possible. In fact many people who are involved in magic also use sihr of love and marry the most appealing person.
Quote
It's certain Sunnis that are causing unrest within the Muslim world by causing Sunni Shia tensions which is allowing the west to benefit from it.
I think this will be the case till the day of judgement. Even the Mahdi will not be able to solve this.



Quote
Correct. Persecution by whom?  Those Muslims who are in authority. Now if there is some kind of reaction somewhere along the line by some Shias then why be alarmed about it.
The Abbasids and Ummawis mainly. A little tension did start in the era of Uthmaan. However, the 12er Shia believe it started at Saqifa. They say Abu Bakr and Umar started the unrest and are responsible for the death of Fatima.


Quote
Absolutely true. Let me add to this. The Shia Muslims are more aware of Sunni Islam then the Sunnis themselves. I speak to a lot of Sunnis who aren't even aware of matters such as the war of Zakat, the pen and paper incident etc and what the Sunni approach is on such matters.
Likewise I can say the same about 12er Shia. They know more about Umar than they know about Hisham ibn Hakam. Ask them about who Hisham ibn Salem was. Ask them about Zurara. Ask them about 12er Shia hadith and most never opened up al Kafi. I met a 12er Shia at work and he only had dawah books to give me. No hadith books. I also was lucky to get a books of a 12er Shia who passed away. All the books he had were philosophy, and duas. There was just one seerah book by Shaykh Mufid.

muslim720

Re: Do you consider shias Muslim? How are your attitudes towards them?
« Reply #17 on: January 09, 2020, 08:19:36 PM »
Salaam alaykum wa rahmatullah,

Of course they are Muslim.
"Our coward ran from those in authority" - Iceman (admitting the truth regarding his 12th Imam)

ManofIlsam

Re: Do you consider shias Muslim? How are your attitudes towards them?
« Reply #18 on: January 11, 2020, 09:48:58 AM »
Yes; of course Shia are Muslim.

Re: Do you consider shias Muslim? How are your attitudes towards them?
« Reply #19 on: January 11, 2020, 11:27:15 AM »
When Hazrat Umar learnt of a group of people drinking alcohol and justifying it by the Qu'ran, he gave the order that if they think it is permissible to drink alcohol, they should be executed. If not, they should receive 80 lashes.

Hazrat Umar was about to execute people who lied about the ruling on alcohol. Imagine how he would feel like about people who lied about the family of the Holy Prophetﷺ?

Forget about being Muslims, being a Shia is a crime.

 

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