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Off Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Soccer on August 22, 2021, 11:19:15 PM

Title: Hussain - So as to save the world from devastation.
Post by: Soccer on August 22, 2021, 11:19:15 PM
Descended to a world that doesn't deserve him
Hussain still lives in the sky
Helping those who respond to the call

All praise to God who's favor to humanity is upon the family of Mohammad and Ali
All praise to God who's grace to humanity is upon the family of Mohammad and Ali
All praise to God who's kindness to humanity is upon the family of Mohammad and Ali
All praise to God who completed his religion with the father of Hussain,
And Grandfather of Hussain and Mother of Hussain
And Brother of Hussain and nine leaders stemming from Hussain

They are the beautiful way
May God guide us to the straight path
The path of those who God favored upon
Favored upon his favor to humanity
With a path to him
Light to brighten the darkness
Justice in a world that is apathetic and shallow

Hussain sacrificed himself so as to save the world from devastation
A devastation that surely can still come
Warned about in the Quran
He knew the risks
And he knew probability was betrayal
But if there was a chance
To save humanity from the evil of Iblis
He wanted to do it
For surely the devastation is coming
He surely understood so much was as stake
Something the selfish betrayers did not

"If you do not do it, there will be in the earth great mischief/corruption..."
To stop the oppression from spreading wide
To stop the punishment that befell the rebellious nations of the past
To make an ease to justice
To light the way
There was a chance....
We blew it and he left us
We blew it and let our guest from God be murdered
Woe to us, why do we want the Mahdi?
So to do to him what was done to his forefathers?
"So why did you kill the Prophets before if you were believers?"


Title: Re: Hussain - So as to save the world from devastation.
Post by: Mythbuster1 on August 23, 2021, 09:24:05 AM
Lol

Huassian ra doesn’t live in the sky…….that’s more Christian belief…….Muslim belief is the martyrs are alive in their graves in BARZAKH!!! Not flying in sky

So Hussain ra SACRIFICED himself to save the world from devastation?????

That is the main theme Christians use as to why Jesus died on the cross.

Oh my the resemblance is so close🤔🤔
Title: Re: Hussain - So as to save the world from devastation.
Post by: Mythbuster1 on August 23, 2021, 09:48:01 AM

We blew it and he left us
We blew it and let our guest from God be murdered
Woe to us, why do we want the Mahdi?
So to do to him what was done to his forefathers?
"So why did you kill the Prophets before if you were believers?"




You kufan shiites most definitely did blow it by inviting him over and making false promises to help him and then siding with the enemy to kill him……..yes you killed the prophets before and now it’s families of the last prophet you are after and spreading lies and misinformation about them after they are long gone……you kufan shiites the killers of the noble family.

No Mahdi for you liars for he isn’t born yet…….again lying on the family of prophet pbuh.
Title: Re: Hussain - So as to save the world from devastation.
Post by: Soccer on August 23, 2021, 02:53:29 PM
Lol

Huassian ra doesn’t live in the sky…….

They are the visited family and lanterns in the sky of this world:

And even if We open to them a gateway of heaven, so that they ascend into it all the while, 14They would certainly say: Only our eyes have been intoxicated, rather we are an enchanted people. 15And certainly We have made strongholds in the heaven and We have made it fair seeming to the beholders. 16And We guard it against every accursed Shaitan, 17But he who steals a hearing, so there follows him a visible flame.

And a hadith to support this:

المفيد : حدثنا الصدوق حدثنا محمد بن موسى بن المتوكل عن محمد بن ابي عبدالله الكوفي عن موسى بن عمران ([31][33]) عن عمه الحسين بن يزيد عن علي بن سالم عن ابيه علن سالم بن دينار عن سعد بن طريف عن الاصبغ بن نباتة قال : سمعت ابن عباس يقول : قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه واله : ذكر الله عز وجل عبادة ، وذكري عبادة ، وذكر علي عبادة ، وذكر الائمة من ولده عبادة ، والذي بعثني بالنبوة وجعلني خير البرية ، إن وصي لافضل الاوصياء ، وإنه لحجة الله على عباده ، وخليفته على خلقه ، ومن ولده الائمة الهداة بعدي ، بهم يحبس الله عن أهل الارض ، وبهم يمسك السماء ان تقع على الارض إلا بإذنه ، وبهم يمسك السماء ان تميد بهم ، وبهم يسقى خلقه الغيث ، وبهم يخرج النبات ، أولئك أولياء الله حقاً وخلفاؤه صدقاً ، عدتهم عدة الشهور ، وهي اثنا عشر شهراً ، وعدتهم عدة نقباء موسى بن عمران عليه السلام ، ثم تلا هذه الاية ( والسماء ذات البروج ) ، ثم قال : اتُقَدِّر ـ يابن عباس ـ أن الله يقسم بالسماء ذات البروج ، ويعني به السماء وبروجها ؟ قلت : يارسول الله ، فما ذاك ، قال : اما السماء فأنا ، واما البروج فالائمة بعدي ، أولهم علي وآخرهم المهدي ([32][34]) .


Quoted from Ibn Abbas from Rasool (s): The remembrance of god is worship, and remembrance of me is worship, and remembrance of Ali is worship, and remembrance of the leaders from his sons is worship, and I swear by the one who brought me up as a Prophet and made me the best of creatures - my successor is the best of successor and he is God's proof on his servants, and his ruler/representative on his creation, and from his sons is the leaders of guidance after me by them does God account on the people of earth, and by them does he prevent the sky from falling on the people of the earth by his permission, and by them does he stop the sky from destroying them, and by them does he bring down the rain, and by them does he bring about the harvest, and these God's Walis by truth and his rulers/representatives truly, and their number is that of the luminaries (to be sought for illumination) and they are twelve luminaries (to be sought from illumination) and their number is that of the Captains of Musa son of Imran, and they are twelve then he recited the verse "And by the sky full of stars" then said "On Son of Abbas, do you think that God would swear by the sky full of stars and he means the (physical) sky and it's stars? so I said "O Messenger of God what is it then?" He said "as for the sky/heaven it's me, as for the stars they are the leaders after me, first of them is Ali and last of them is the Mahdi"
Title: Re: Hussain - So as to save the world from devastation.
Post by: Soccer on August 23, 2021, 03:44:00 PM
So Hussain ra SACRIFICED himself to save the world from devastation?????

The future despite what all Muslims may say, is not known. The Quran warns about catastrophes that faced nations before us and cities before us, but the catastrophe with the Mahdi (a) because Mohammad (s) is a universal messenger, is of the greatest warnings.

There are different scenarios - if Ahlulbayt (a) would be accepted by the world, not a city need be punished or destroyed.

The oppressors in the past use to think they cannot be defeated, many times people saw themselves as super powers, and they plan and plan against God's plans, but their plans are part of God's plans and God's plans are best.

God doesn't want to destroy anyone, but if people oppress believers, and believers rely on him, it's incumbent upon God to deliver the believers from their oppressors as spoken about in Quran at the moments of peril, God responds.

It's better believers defeat the oppressors and oppressors submit to believers and their religion of truth, then God saving the believers and destroying the oppressors and their supporters and their silent watchers like he did with people of Noah and people of the Pharaoh.

It's better humanity decide to not oppress believers, but I'm not holding my breath. Satan controls this generation like he controlled others.
Title: Re: Hussain - So as to save the world from devastation.
Post by: Mythbuster1 on August 23, 2021, 03:47:23 PM
They are the visited family and lanterns in the sky of this world:

And even if We open to them a gateway of heaven, so that they ascend into it all the while, 14They would certainly say: Only our eyes have been intoxicated, rather we are an enchanted people. 15And certainly We have made strongholds in the heaven and We have made it fair seeming to the beholders. 16And We guard it against every accursed Shaitan, 17But he who steals a hearing, so there follows him a visible flame.

And a hadith to support this:

المفيد : حدثنا الصدوق حدثنا محمد بن موسى بن المتوكل عن محمد بن ابي عبدالله الكوفي عن موسى بن عمران ([31][33]) عن عمه الحسين بن يزيد عن علي بن سالم عن ابيه علن سالم بن دينار عن سعد بن طريف عن الاصبغ بن نباتة قال : سمعت ابن عباس يقول : قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه واله : ذكر الله عز وجل عبادة ، وذكري عبادة ، وذكر علي عبادة ، وذكر الائمة من ولده عبادة ، والذي بعثني بالنبوة وجعلني خير البرية ، إن وصي لافضل الاوصياء ، وإنه لحجة الله على عباده ، وخليفته على خلقه ، ومن ولده الائمة الهداة بعدي ، بهم يحبس الله عن أهل الارض ، وبهم يمسك السماء ان تقع على الارض إلا بإذنه ، وبهم يمسك السماء ان تميد بهم ، وبهم يسقى خلقه الغيث ، وبهم يخرج النبات ، أولئك أولياء الله حقاً وخلفاؤه صدقاً ، عدتهم عدة الشهور ، وهي اثنا عشر شهراً ، وعدتهم عدة نقباء موسى بن عمران عليه السلام ، ثم تلا هذه الاية ( والسماء ذات البروج ) ، ثم قال : اتُقَدِّر ـ يابن عباس ـ أن الله يقسم بالسماء ذات البروج ، ويعني به السماء وبروجها ؟ قلت : يارسول الله ، فما ذاك ، قال : اما السماء فأنا ، واما البروج فالائمة بعدي ، أولهم علي وآخرهم المهدي ([32][34]) .


Quoted from Ibn Abbas from Rasool (s): The remembrance of god is worship, and remembrance of me is worship, and remembrance of Ali is worship, and remembrance of the leaders from his sons is worship, and I swear by the one who brought me up as a Prophet and made me the best of creatures - my successor is the best of successor and he is God's proof on his servants, and his ruler/representative on his creation, and from his sons is the leaders of guidance after me by them does God account on the people of earth, and by them does he prevent the sky from falling on the people of the earth by his permission, and by them does he stop the sky from destroying them, and by them does he bring down the rain, and by them does he bring about the harvest, and these God's Walis by truth and his rulers/representatives truly, and their number is that of the luminaries (to be sought for illumination) and they are twelve luminaries (to be sought from illumination) and their number is that of the Captains of Musa son of Imran, and they are twelve then he recited the verse "And by the sky full of stars" then said "On Son of Abbas, do you think that God would swear by the sky full of stars and he means the (physical) sky and it's stars? so I said "O Messenger of God what is it then?" He said "as for the sky/heaven it's me, as for the stars they are the leaders after me, first of them is Ali and last of them is the Mahdi"



So you base Hussain living in the sky and dying to save the world from some unauthentic Shiite narration???

You sure do follow the Christians in their ways, and you are proving it too.

Talk about making up false gods, you are an expert at that especially with your posts.

Title: Re: Hussain - So as to save the world from devastation.
Post by: Soccer on August 23, 2021, 03:48:55 PM

So you base Hussain living in the sky and dying to save the world from some unauthentic Shiite narration???

You sure do follow the Christians in their ways, and you are proving it too.

Talk about making up false gods, you are an expert at that especially with your posts.

I see it in Quran with certainty. I don't doubt it. Hadiths are meant to be insights to Quran, so be careful when approaching hadiths so that you don't become blind to Quran by denying their truth.
Title: Re: Hussain - So as to save the world from devastation.
Post by: Soccer on August 23, 2021, 03:58:00 PM
And the way to see everything in Quran clearly, is to let Quran contextualize it's verses.  The Quran has described the sorcery to harden the hearts and make people place words of God out of their place.  So the solution is to soften one's heart with tears of fear and sadness, and try to put God's words in their proper context with respect to the chapter, theme, and whole of Quran.
Title: Re: Hussain - So as to save the world from devastation.
Post by: Mythbuster1 on August 24, 2021, 07:23:27 AM
I see it in Quran with certainty. I don't doubt it. Hadiths are meant to be insights to Quran, so be careful when approaching hadiths so that you don't become blind to Quran by denying their truth.

So do tell us the verse where Husssin is flying in the sky like Christian belief of flying dead souls.
You my lil friend have to be extra careful when using unauthentic hadiths gathered by unknowns and forcing your own assumptions on verses of Quran.

Be afraid of Allah swt.
Title: Re: Hussain - So as to save the world from devastation.
Post by: Mythbuster1 on August 24, 2021, 07:27:25 AM
And the way to see everything in Quran clearly, is to let Quran contextualize it's verses.  The Quran has described the sorcery to harden the hearts and make people place words of God out of their place.  So the solution is to soften one's heart with tears of fear and sadness, and try to put God's words in their proper context with respect to the chapter, theme, and whole of Quran.

Yes…..but you don’t, instead you are adding your own assumptions and theories and creating your own themes of light and dark forces to your already hardened heart to sorcery most likely influenced by satanic whispers entering your head. Especially with regards to ahlu baith you have nothing but conjecture on verses of Quran.
Title: Re: Hussain - So as to save the world from devastation.
Post by: Soccer on August 24, 2021, 03:23:31 PM
Salam

The Quran has discussed the Authority of Ahlulbayt (a) of the past (4:54) to make way for those who possess the Authority from us (4:59).  It also has described the kin chosen by God to be the pathway to God (42:23, 25:57).

Quran revealing as well that the sky is full of ways (51:7) and has talked about their being lanterns in the sky.  As Ahlulbayt (a) have been described to be the path of God (42:23, 25:57), it's rational this is discussing a dimension of their sacred reality.

The context also is about Mohammad's (a) Nubuwa and Authority, and so we see the Quran is saying, that even if God was to open a door to heaven - they would accuse of Mohammad (s) doing sorcery upon them and would not believe.

Allah (swt) also reveals that connection to the sky reality that Mohammad (s) can do is the guidance but that he can't do it for most because of their aversion from truth:

And should their aversion be hard on you, find, if you can, a tunnel into the ground, or a ladder into sky, that you may bring them a sign. Had Allah wished, He would have brought them together on guidance. So do not be one of the ignorant. (6:35)

Furthermore, Quran has discussed households that God permitted to be risen and his name remembered therein as the light of the heavens and earth.  Mohammad's (s) family is the last of these households and Quran has discussed how the sky reality was augmented with Mohammad's (s) coming to the extent Jinn can no longer attend any heaven and hear.

The context of the lanterns in the sky is also to prove the Authority of Mohammad (s).


Title: Re: Hussain - So as to save the world from devastation.
Post by: Mythbuster1 on August 24, 2021, 05:30:53 PM
Salam

The Quran has discussed the Authority of Ahlulbayt (a) of the past (4:54) to make way for those who possess the Authority from us (4:59).  It also has described the kin chosen by God to be the pathway to God (42:23, 25:57).

Quran revealing as well that the sky is full of ways (51:7) and has talked about their being lanterns in the sky.  As Ahlulbayt (a) have been described to be the path of God (42:23, 25:57), it's rational this is discussing a dimension of their sacred reality.

The context also is about Mohammad's (a) Nubuwa and Authority, and so we see the Quran is saying, that even if God was to open a door to heaven - they would accuse of Mohammad (s) doing sorcery upon them and would not believe.

Allah (swt) also reveals that connection to the sky reality that Mohammad (s) can do is the guidance but that he can't do it for most because of their aversion from truth:

And should their aversion be hard on you, find, if you can, a tunnel into the ground, or a ladder into sky, that you may bring them a sign. Had Allah wished, He would have brought them together on guidance. So do not be one of the ignorant. (6:35)

Furthermore, Quran has discussed households that God permitted to be risen and his name remembered therein as the light of the heavens and earth.  Mohammad's (s) family is the last of these households and Quran has discussed how the sky reality was augmented with Mohammad's (s) coming to the extent Jinn can no longer attend any heaven and hear.

The context of the lanterns in the sky is also to prove the Authority of Mohammad (s).




Assumptions ……(4/54)(4/59)(42/23)(25/57) NO clear verse on authority or the chosen family.

Nothing but conjecture.

Typical.
Title: Re: Hussain - So as to save the world from devastation.
Post by: Soccer on August 24, 2021, 06:19:10 PM
To ignorant people, much of Quran is unclear.  The Quran is full of clear signs but only for soft hearts that understand through love of God and his chosen.
Title: Re: Hussain - So as to save the world from devastation.
Post by: Soccer on August 24, 2021, 06:25:13 PM
That is which he gives good news to his servants that believe and do good deeds; say: I ask you no reward regarding it except the love in the kin and whoever earns goodness we increase them in it beauty, and God is forgiving, appreciative. (42:23)

Say: What in terms of a reward do I ask regarding it except who wants to, to take a path to their Lord? (25:57)

Or do they envy the humans for what God has given them out of his grace? For indeed we gave the family of Ibrahim, the book, and the wisdom and we gave them a great authority. (4:54)

O you who believe; obey God and obey the Messenger and those who Possess the Authority from you therefore if you dispute in a thing refer it to God and the Messenger if you believe in God and the last day; this is better and best in ending. (4:59)
Title: Re: Hussain - So as to save the world from devastation.
Post by: Mythbuster1 on August 25, 2021, 04:55:48 AM
To ignorant people, much of Quran is unclear.  The Quran is full of clear signs but only for soft hearts that understand through love of God and his chosen.

Well show the ignorant why they are ignorant and show the clear verses on following ahlu baith!

You seem to have a big problem with showing the truth from the Quran.

Title: Re: Hussain - So as to save the world from devastation.
Post by: Mythbuster1 on August 25, 2021, 05:00:23 AM
That is which he gives good news to his servants that believe and do good deeds; say: I ask you no reward regarding it except the love in the kin and whoever earns goodness we increase them in it beauty, and God is forgiving, appreciative. (42:23)

Say: What in terms of a reward do I ask regarding it except who wants to, to take a path to their Lord? (25:57)

Or do they envy the humans for what God has given them out of his grace? For indeed we gave the family of Ibrahim, the book, and the wisdom and we gave them a great authority. (4:54)

O you who believe; obey God and obey the Messenger and those who Possess the Authority from you therefore if you dispute in a thing refer it to God and the Messenger if you believe in God and the last day; this is better and best in ending. (4:59)


Somewhere in there their is a secret meaning which is ahlu baith that you just have to imagine to force the verses to relate to ahlu baith……….It only works for ignorants the majority of Muslims see and interpret the words as they are and see NO following of the ahlu baith.

You need to stay away from them satanic whispers in your head.
Title: Re: Hussain - So as to save the world from devastation.
Post by: Soccer on August 25, 2021, 02:56:31 PM
Anyone can come up with absurd meanings to verses to deny the clear meanings. With respect to 42:23, this is what Sunnis do. They come up with an absurd meaning and ignore the clear meaning.  With respect to 4:59, the context is totally ignored which 4:54 shows it's about Ahlulbayt (a).

As for the reward verses, I made topics about them, but they are clear.

I posted this in another thread:

Mohammad (s) does not seek a reward from viewpoint of believers but from the viewpoint of disbelievers, that which they see as a reward and accusation of his false Prophethood from their viewpoint is being explained to be really this and that from the viewpoint that he is a true Prophet.

So the verses can be summarized to "I understand it looks like he is greedy for power, control, and landscaping society morally and leaving a legacy in his offspring and vesting authority to his bloodline from your vantage point of doubt and disbelief, but what is all that when you think about it, but something upon God to do from viewpoint that he is a true Prophet and what is all this rewards you accuse him of but really would be a path to God from viewpoint he is a true Prophet and what is all that but really love in the kin chosen by God and reminder to all nations of the past to present, as God always chose group of guides to guide humanity and linked them through kinship"

You can find more detail here: http://forum.twelvershia.net/imamah-ghaybah/4223-and-2557-and-reward-verses-prove-a-lot-in-context-of-quran/
Title: Re: Hussain - So as to save the world from devastation.
Post by: Mythbuster1 on August 26, 2021, 09:22:05 AM
Anyone can come up with absurd meanings to verses to deny the clear meanings. With respect to 42:23, this is what Sunnis do. They come up with an absurd meaning and ignore the clear meaning.  With respect to 4:59, the context is totally ignored which 4:54 shows it's about Ahlulbayt (a).

As for the reward verses, I made topics about them, but they are clear.

I posted this in another thread:

Mohammad (s) does not seek a reward from viewpoint of believers but from the viewpoint of disbelievers, that which they see as a reward and accusation of his false Prophethood from their viewpoint is being explained to be really this and that from the viewpoint that he is a true Prophet.

So the verses can be summarized to "I understand it looks like he is greedy for power, control, and landscaping society morally and leaving a legacy in his offspring and vesting authority to his bloodline from your vantage point of doubt and disbelief, but what is all that when you think about it, but something upon God to do from viewpoint that he is a true Prophet and what is all this rewards you accuse him of but really would be a path to God from viewpoint he is a true Prophet and what is all that but really love in the kin chosen by God and reminder to all nations of the past to present, as God always chose group of guides to guide humanity and linked them through kinship"

You can find more detail here: http://forum.twelvershia.net/imamah-ghaybah/4223-and-2557-and-reward-verses-prove-a-lot-in-context-of-quran/


Yes and you are good at pulling out absurd meanings especially if you’ve been fed ahlubaith lies all your life.

There is no ahlubaith in 4:59…….unless you can show clearly.

Give us your breakdown of the actual verse instead of summaries and joining up with other verses.

You have NOTHING but conjecture which the whispers of Satan are helping you in your delusion.
Title: Re: Hussain - So as to save the world from devastation.
Post by: Soccer on August 26, 2021, 04:06:06 PM
Give us your breakdown of the actual verse instead of summaries and joining up with other verses.

Authority can mean so many things to different humans, but, what you are saying is the problem. You don't join it with other verses and do not let Quran contextualize it's own verses.

The context of the Authority in 4:59 by verses before and after is divine Authority given by God to his chosen ones.
Title: Re: Hussain - So as to save the world from devastation.
Post by: Soccer on August 26, 2021, 05:29:43 PM
And 4:54 and 4:59 reinforce each other and contextualize each other.  And nature of language is to contextualize speech.  We contextualize everyone speech but with God and his chosen ones, we don't. This is a huge injustice that won't be taken lightly on the day of judgment.
Title: Re: Hussain - So as to save the world from devastation.
Post by: Mythbuster1 on August 27, 2021, 07:40:35 AM
Authority can mean so many things to different humans, but, what you are saying is the problem. You don't join it with other verses and do not let Quran contextualize it's own verses.

The context of the Authority in 4:59 by verses before and after is divine Authority given by God to his chosen ones.

Where did you get the context for divine authority? No where in the verses before and after is there divine authority.

Do break it down word for word from Arabic instead adding your assumptions……..This is your Shiite problem you can never do so unless adding your own divine authority to it.
Title: Re: Hussain - So as to save the world from devastation.
Post by: Soccer on August 27, 2021, 03:00:02 PM
Where did you get the context for divine authority? No where in the verses before and after is there divine authority.

As before, it's because of the context of the Authority of the family of Ibrahim in 4:54 which is Divine Authority given by God. There are humans being compared to the Ahlulbayt of Ibrahim. And because it then emphasizes on belief and disbelief in God's signs, and also the punishment for those who turn away and the reward of those who believe.

And it because the type being claimed by leaders of the people of the book is religious Authority which God is saying it's his chosen like the family of Abraham that truly have that.

As for after it's the verse emphasizing that all Messengers were sent to be obeyed by God's permission, and so both the context before and after is about divine Authority in his chosen.
Title: Re: Hussain - So as to save the world from devastation.
Post by: Mythbuster1 on August 28, 2021, 12:56:20 PM
As before, it's because of the context of the Authority of the family of Ibrahim in 4:54 which is Divine Authority given by God. There are humans being compared to the Ahlulbayt of Ibrahim. And because it then emphasizes on belief and disbelief in God's signs, and also the punishment for those who turn away and the reward of those who believe.

And it because the type being claimed by leaders of the people of the book is religious Authority which God is saying it's his chosen like the family of Abraham that truly have that.

As for after it's the verse emphasizing that all Messengers were sent to be obeyed by God's permission, and so both the context before and after is about divine Authority in his chosen.

There is no divine authority given to Ibrahim as in verse 4/54.

It’s all ASSUMPTIONS trying your hardest especially given the satanic whispers you keep getting.

Basically you have nothing but conjecture at best.

Thankyou for proving to me you are not sane at all instead you see things that are NOT there especially in verses clear in the Quran.

Title: Re: Hussain - So as to save the world from devastation.
Post by: Soccer on August 28, 2021, 07:25:16 PM
4:54 shows the grace upon the family of Ibrahim.

(1) They are given the book (Nubuwa).
(2) Additionally they are given the wisdom (by which they teach people the message)
Then there is a 3rd emphasis, that they were given a great authority.

As people of the book weren't contesting Mohammad (s) on whether he had political authority or not, but rather, when he was a divinely appointed leader - the context again is divine authority.  The envy is towards the family of Mohammad (s) who too been given the great authority but as for the book, they aren't given that, but inherit the book/Nubuwa instead and they too have wisdom.

The emphasis on book and wisdom interprets it to be divine authority. That and household of Ibrahim are emphasized to be Imams who guide by God's command else where, and so all context of all these verses show it to be about divine authority.

The Quran also shows people of book leaders authority is being contrasted to the type Ahlulbayt (a) of Ibrahim has, they weren't claiming they were political rulers but rather, they were claiming religious leadership.  The Quran says they don't have a share in it, and else where we see religious authority is something only given by God.
Title: Re: Hussain - So as to save the world from devastation.
Post by: Mythbuster1 on August 28, 2021, 10:48:41 PM
4:54 shows the grace upon the family of Ibrahim.

(1) They are given the book (Nubuwa).
(2) Additionally they are given the wisdom (by which they teach people the message)
Then there is a 3rd emphasis, that they were given a great authority.

As people of the book weren't contesting Mohammad (s) on whether he had political authority or not, but rather, when he was a divinely appointed leader - the context again is divine authority.  The envy is towards the family of Mohammad (s) who too been given the great authority but as for the book, they aren't given that, but inherit the book/Nubuwa instead and they too have wisdom.

The emphasis on book and wisdom interprets it to be divine authority. That and household of Ibrahim are emphasized to be Imams who guide by God's command else where, and so all context of all these verses show it to be about divine authority.

The Quran also shows people of book leaders authority is being contrasted to the type Ahlulbayt (a) of Ibrahim has, they weren't claiming they were political rulers but rather, they were claiming religious leadership.  The Quran says they don't have a share in it, and else where we see religious authority is something only given by God.

There you go again ……..“envy is towards family of prophet pbuh”!!

You are ADDING in your assumptions to correlate with your false idea of divine authority you’ve just added the ahlubaith in yourself. Stop with your stupid assertions please!

Title: Re: Hussain - So as to save the world from devastation.
Post by: Soccer on August 28, 2021, 11:49:39 PM
There you go again ……..“envy is towards family of prophet pbuh”!!

You are ADDING in your assumptions to correlate with your false idea of divine authority you’ve just added the ahlubaith in yourself. Stop with your stupid assertions please!

It's a reasonable assumption that the humans being compared to an Ahlulbayt of the past are an Ahlulbayt themselves or else why mention this?

The "from you" in 4:59 is obviously saying, you too have been given possessors of the Authority like past people were given that in forms of "Ahlulbayts" as is obvious by mentioning the household of Abraham in 4:54.

4:54 is saying to the people of the book, why do you envy this Ahlulbayt while honoring the Ahlulbayt of Ibrahim in the past? Why do honor an Ahlulbayt of the past and acknowledge their authority but are opposing the current Ahlulbayt of your time!

This is a problem on your part, not my part, on reciting Quran.

Quran is not meant to be seen as stories of the past, they are meant to be relevant, and a possible meaning of 33:33 is that it's saying all the talk of chosen ones who God attributed purity to in the past, is not really meant to attribute purity to them since they are no longer relevant, but the purpose is in fact really only to attribute purity to you Ahlulbayt so that people follow you.

Title: Re: Hussain - So as to save the world from devastation.
Post by: Mythbuster1 on August 31, 2021, 10:01:50 AM
It's a reasonable assumption that the humans being compared to an Ahlulbayt of the past are an Ahlulbayt themselves or else why mention this?

The "from you" in 4:59 is obviously saying, you too have been given possessors of the Authority like past people were given that in forms of "Ahlulbayts" as is obvious by mentioning the household of Abraham in 4:54.

4:54 is saying to the people of the book, why do you envy this Ahlulbayt while honoring the Ahlulbayt of Ibrahim in the past? Why do honor an Ahlulbayt of the past and acknowledge their authority but are opposing the current Ahlulbayt of your time!

This is a problem on your part, not my part, on reciting Quran.

Quran is not meant to be seen as stories of the past, they are meant to be relevant, and a possible meaning of 33:33 is that it's saying all the talk of chosen ones who God attributed purity to in the past, is not really meant to attribute purity to them since they are no longer relevant, but the purpose is in fact really only to attribute purity to you Ahlulbayt so that people follow you.




No it’s not a reasonable assumption……..stop basing verses of Quran on your assumptions!

“Front you” is not talking about the family…….that’s your insertion/assumption devoid of any facts relating to such.

Quran is haq is full of facts that are easy to understand………not facts twisted to suit your false islamic perspective.
Title: Re: Hussain - So as to save the world from devastation.
Post by: Soccer on August 31, 2021, 02:50:37 PM

No it’s not a reasonable assumption……..stop basing verses of Quran on your assumptions!

“Front you” is not talking about the family…….that’s your insertion/assumption devoid of any facts relating to such.

Quran is haq is full of facts that are easy to understand………not facts twisted to suit your false islamic perspective.

Why isn't a reasonable assumption?

The "from you" is obviously emphasizing on that we too be given the likes of an Ahlulbayt of Ibrahim.

You're being obtuse after the truth has become clear to you.
Title: Re: Hussain - So as to save the world from devastation.
Post by: Mythbuster1 on August 31, 2021, 03:19:43 PM
Why isn't a reasonable assumption?

The "from you" is obviously emphasizing on that we too be given the likes of an Ahlulbayt of Ibrahim.

You're being obtuse after the truth has become clear to you.

Your assumption is what it is and NOT what the Quran means.

You are using 4-54 meaning of ahl of Ibrahim as and deviously joining it up with 4-59 and extrapolating your own meaning of the verse 4-59 by translating it as tho it means family.

Why are you so simple? You need to get rid of satanic whispers that keep telling you to  forcefully assume something of divine family authority in the verses.

If I was being obtuse I wouldn’t be so sure in my rebuttals to your satanic inspired posts.

Rather the only person being obtuse here according to what the Quran says is…..you!
You have interpreted your own meaning from verses of the Quran.

Nothing but FALSE assumptions.

“And say: Truth has now arrived, and Falsehood has perished: for Falsehood by its very own nature is bound to perish.” Holy Quran: Chapter 17 Verse 81.

Title: Re: Hussain - So as to save the world from devastation.
Post by: Soccer on August 31, 2021, 04:24:28 PM
Your assumption is what it is and NOT what the Quran means.

You are using 4-54 meaning of ahl of Ibrahim as and deviously joining it up with 4-59 and extrapolating your own meaning of the verse 4-59 by translating it as tho it means family.

Why are you so simple? You need to get rid of satanic whispers that keep telling you to  forcefully assume something of divine family authority in the verses.

If I was being obtuse I wouldn’t be so sure in my rebuttals to your satanic inspired posts.

Rather the only person being obtuse here according to what the Quran says is…..you!
You have interpreted your own meaning from verses of the Quran.

Nothing but FALSE assumptions.

“And say: Truth has now arrived, and Falsehood has perished: for Falsehood by its very own nature is bound to perish.” Holy Quran: Chapter 17 Verse 81.

These assumptions are by rules of language, because language is contextual, you contextualize things, not break and isolate and take things to mean what you want out of desires. You see the context to the see the meaning.
Title: Re: Hussain - So as to save the world from devastation.
Post by: Soccer on August 31, 2021, 05:22:29 PM
1. What is Auli-Ibrahim?

Auli-Ibrahim is a higher type family, in which the kinship is due to:

(1) They are on a mission together to guide humans.
(2) They ascend together in heaven/sky
(3) They are on par with each other in rank
(4) They are blessed together and purified together one purification and level of blessings.
(5) They are related by blood as well

2. The comparison

The "do you envy..." is means of comparing, comparing who "the humans" with who? The comparison is with Ahlulbayt of Ibrahim (a) meaning the humans too are an Ahlulbayt chosen by God. Allah (swt) could've just said "Messengers" but instead emphasized on a chosen Ahlulbayt of the past, to show, this is what we are given too.


3. The Contrast


"do you envy" is also a contrast, with the authority of leaders of people of the book, with that of the humans envied and Ahlulbayt of Ibrahim, in this regard, the subject is about religious leadership and authority. The "Do they have a share in the authority?" is a rhetorical refutation that this authority is something that other than God decides... so the context is divine Authority.

4.  The emphasis of obeying God


In flow with that, is the emphasis to obey God showing obedience to the Rasool and Ulil-Amr is obedience to God.

5. The "from you" has a flow with Ahlulbayt of Ibrahim and their authority.


The from you is obviously saying, you too have been given an Ulil-Amr. And if we think about it, Ahlulbayt of Ibrahim are an Ulil-Amr as well.

This saying, you too have been given an Ahlulbayt that is given authority by God so obey God and obey them.

6. The Ayatallah and faith context


In addition to all this, is that the emphasis with respect to the envied humans, is to believe in Ayatallah and not turn away from the Authority vested in his chosen, in flow with that, is 4:59. The obedience to Ulil-Amr is clearly an issue of faith and submission. It's clear also by this emphasis to have faith in God's signs.

7. The witnesses


In addition to that, before getting into dialogue of the opposition of the people of the book to the envied humans, the Quran talked about the witnesses and for every people there is a witness from them, this flows also well to the Ulil-Amr, it's part of what gives it context by flow. It's obvious the Ulil-Amr are witnesses.

8. The great Authority


The great Authority is obviously one and the same that the Ulil-Amr are given and Ahlulbayt of Ibrahim were Imams who guide by God's command.

9. The obedience to all Messengers by God's permission

After that, there is emphasis that all Messengers were to be obeyed by God's permission, this again, is in context of divine Authority.
Title: Re: Hussain - So as to save the world from devastation.
Post by: Soccer on August 31, 2021, 05:40:51 PM
I suggest reflecting over the words. The same is done in 33:6, people if give proper context, it would be clear.

33:6 emphasizes on relationship of Prophet (s) with believers, to be that he is to preferred in both love and obedience. The Ulil-Arham share in that, and Awliya we are supposed to do good in are the Rasool and the Ulel-Arham linked to him, ulel-Ahrham have that Walayah some of them in priority to others (Succession) and Awliya is in context of this Welayah of the Prophet.  Why do some have priority to that, than others? It's because it has to do with current live leadership, and it means Hassan (a) has priority due to him being destined to be 2nd successor of Rasool (s), and then Hussain (a), then Ali son of Hussain (a). If you reflect over 33:6 alone, that should end the Shia-Sunni conflict.



The Prophet is Awla to the believers then themselves, and his wives are their mothers, and the possessors of kinship, some of them are Awla then others in the book of God from the believers and emigrants,  that you should only do good to your Awliya, indeed this is written in the book.


The verses after also flow better with this meaning and translation. The covenant with all Prophets (a) is related to that.
Title: Re: Hussain - So as to save the world from devastation.
Post by: Mythbuster1 on September 01, 2021, 07:56:15 AM
I suggest reflecting over the words. The same is done in 33:6, people if give proper context, it would be clear.

33:6 emphasizes on relationship of Prophet (s) with believers, to be that he is to preferred in both love and obedience. The Ulil-Arham share in that, and Awliya we are supposed to do good in are the Rasool and the Ulel-Arham linked to him, ulel-Ahrham have that Walayah some of them in priority to others (Succession) and Awliya is in context of this Welayah of the Prophet.  Why do some have priority to that, than others? It's because it has to do with current live leadership, and it means Hassan (a) has priority due to him being destined to be 2nd successor of Rasool (s), and then Hussain (a), then Ali son of Hussain (a). If you reflect over 33:6 alone, that should end the Shia-Sunni conflict.



The Prophet is Awla to the believers then themselves, and his wives are their mothers, and the possessors of kinship, some of them are Awla then others in the book of God from the believers and emigrants,  that you should only do good to your Awliya, indeed this is written in the book.


The verses after also flow better with this meaning and translation. The covenant with all Prophets (a) is related to that.


Again reflect on your assumptions and theories?? The verses are clearly not as you say.

As for using the verse lol……well most of your Shiites hate ummu ul maumineen and assume a different meaning to that.

No wonder your mental state isn’t stable.
Title: Re: Hussain - So as to save the world from devastation.
Post by: Soccer on September 27, 2021, 03:26:43 PM
Again, my assumptions are just applying contextualization to language and seeing Quran justly this way, something we learn from kids till now.
Title: Re: Hussain - So as to save the world from devastation.
Post by: Mythbuster1 on September 29, 2021, 07:33:53 AM
Again, my assumptions are just applying contextualization to language and seeing Quran justly this way, something we learn from kids till now.

Your mental assumptions are contextualising it to your own desires and you are forcing the Quran to twist it to your own way of mental thinking, something you and your Shiite ancestors have been doing since you started your sect.
You have no solid evidences apart from as I keep repeating……”ASSUMPTIONS”.

You can’t run away from it.
Title: Re: Hussain - So as to save the world from devastation.
Post by: Soccer on September 29, 2021, 12:01:55 PM
Your mental assumptions are contextualising it to your own desires and you are forcing the Quran to twist it to your own way of mental thinking, something you and your Shiite ancestors have been doing since you started your sect.
You have no solid evidences apart from as I keep repeating……”ASSUMPTIONS”.

You can’t run away from it.

Whether we desire it or not, doesn't change the fact it's the meaning by contextualization rules.
Title: Re: Hussain - So as to save the world from devastation.
Post by: Mythbuster1 on September 30, 2021, 10:48:30 AM
Whether we desire it or not, doesn't change the fact it's the meaning by contextualization rules.

Yes contextualisation by your wierd standards that has no basis.
Title: Re: Hussain - So as to save the world from devastation.
Post by: Soccer on September 30, 2021, 04:48:59 PM
Yes contextualisation by your wierd standards that has no basis.

Not weird, but rather we all apply the same standards on all words - but the sorcery of Iblis makes people take words of Quran out of their place (context).
Title: Re: Hussain - So as to save the world from devastation.
Post by: Mythbuster1 on October 01, 2021, 08:00:40 AM
Not weird, but rather we all apply the same standards on all words - but the sorcery of Iblis makes people take words of Quran out of their place (context).


LOL

 Exactly what I’m referring to………the sorcery of iblis has got you and you are using the words of Quran out of their place (context), you are already believing in hidden imams and atom changing imams and using that to force your idea and assumptions on the Quran.
Title: Re: Hussain - So as to save the world from devastation.
Post by: Soccer on October 01, 2021, 01:20:08 PM

LOL

 Exactly what I’m referring to………the sorcery of iblis has got you and you are using the words of Quran out of their place (context), you are already believing in hidden imams and atom changing imams and using that to force your idea and assumptions on the Quran.

If you contextual Quran, Imams, their existence, their power and even their number are all clear.
Title: Re: Hussain - So as to save the world from devastation.
Post by: Mythbuster1 on October 03, 2021, 12:52:59 PM
If you contextual Quran, Imams, their existence, their power and even their number are all clear.

Yea contextualise according to your whims and desires forcing the beliefs of imams and the numbers etc that you have been brainwashed with in your head as if it means true and clear.
You can’t make sense from something that is nonsense.
Iblis has got you good and you are playing into his tricks and that is very clear!
Title: Re: Hussain - So as to save the world from devastation.
Post by: Soccer on October 03, 2021, 02:28:02 PM
Yea contextualise according to your whims and desires forcing the beliefs of imams and the numbers etc that you have been brainwashed with in your head as if it means true and clear.
You can’t make sense from something that is nonsense.
Iblis has got you good and you are playing into his tricks and that is very clear!

Whether I desire it or not, doesn't change the fact it's clear if you don't turn Quran into isolated pieces and don't take things out of context.
Title: Re: Hussain - So as to save the world from devastation.
Post by: Mythbuster1 on October 04, 2021, 12:22:10 PM
Whether I desire it or not, doesn't change the fact it's clear if you don't turn Quran into isolated pieces and don't take things out of context.

Yes It’s very clear and easy to understand as is the case for billions of Muslims especially if you don’t take isolated pieces and add new ideas and assumptions that you think is Imamate and taking it out of context and adding your own context.
Title: Re: Hussain - So as to save the world from devastation.
Post by: Soccer on October 04, 2021, 01:07:14 PM
Yes It’s very clear and easy to understand as is the case for billions of Muslims especially if you don’t take isolated pieces and add new ideas and assumptions that you think is Imamate and taking it out of context and adding your own context.

The main thesis and reminder of Quran is the Authority and Relationship of Leaders appointed by God upon humanity.
Title: Re: Hussain - So as to save the world from devastation.
Post by: Mythbuster1 on October 05, 2021, 07:22:46 AM
The main thesis and reminder of Quran is the Authority and Relationship of Leaders appointed by God upon humanity.

Wrong, yet again you are making your own stuff up there is no main thesis of authority and leadership, there are main themes regarding tawheed, nabuwwah etc but nothing on ahlubaith and their divine leadership.
Title: Re: Hussain - So as to save the world from devastation.
Post by: Soccer on October 06, 2021, 12:55:41 AM
Wrong, yet again you are making your own stuff up there is no main thesis of authority and leadership, there are main themes regarding tawheed, nabuwwah etc but nothing on ahlubaith and their divine leadership.

The Quran is a reminder to all the world and not just Arabs. Some people experiencing eloquence of Quran will know it's from God others won't because they don't know Arabic.

But I believe outside of Arabic, Quran has reminders that can prove the proper religion to all humans through reasoning and insights and tautologies and proper signs.

Since obviously everything I'm going to say about Quran you are going say I make it up if I relate it to Ahlulbayt (a), I am going to ask you a very simple question.

Outside of Quran being a miracle what is the proof for Mohammad (s) in your view? Quran reasons a lot, so I want to see how you understand it's reasoning to prove Mohammad (s).

I say this because the way I see it - it has used tactically the past and future and present in a way that if we doubt that past, the present proves it, and if we doubt the present, the past proves it, but this would be circular, and so even the taught of the future, is all about God's way and design of his religion.

I will let you explain how you believe Quran proves Mohammad (s) before continuing on this discussion.  In my view, it's impossible to prove Mohammad (s) without proving Ali (a), and so if you understand the Quranic proof for Mohammad (S), you will see it proves Ali (a).

But I will see your explanation first before I expand on this in greater detail and seek to prove it.
Title: Re: Hussain - So as to save the world from devastation.
Post by: Mythbuster1 on October 07, 2021, 03:06:16 PM

Since obviously everything I'm going to say about Quran you are going say I make it up if I relate it to Ahlulbayt (a), I am going to ask you a very simple question.

Outside of Quran being a miracle what is the proof for Mohammad (s) in your view? Quran reasons a lot, so I want to see how you understand it's reasoning to prove Mohammad (s).

I say this because the way I see it - it has used tactically the past and future and present in a way that if we doubt that past, the present proves it, and if we doubt the present, the past proves it, but this would be circular, and so even the taught of the future, is all about God's way and design of his religion.

I will let you explain how you believe Quran proves Mohammad (s) before continuing on this discussion.  In my view, it's impossible to prove Mohammad (s) without proving Ali (a), and so if you understand the Quranic proof for Mohammad (S), you will see it proves Ali (a).

But I will see your explanation first before I expand on this in greater detail and seek to prove it.

Since I am a Muslim who follows quran and sunnah I will post you starting of verse Imran 3/144 “ MuHammad is but a messenger,”

Above is just 1 example of how CLEAR quran is, you asked, I provided clear verse on the status of Muhammed pbuh. No long essays or personal assumptions or thoughts but a clear verse which means what it says.

That’s my clear PROOF.

Yet NOWHERE is there any clear verses on Ali ra nor is there any reasoning it’s all assumptions which you will no doubt post in your next post all assumptions and how you think/believe this relates to this and that to that as I keep repeating you have 0 evidence (like I posted a clear verse).

Your turn, show us clear verses linking Ali ra with Muhammed pbuh proving each other.
Title: Re: Hussain - So as to save the world from devastation.
Post by: Soccer on October 07, 2021, 09:59:33 PM
You avoided my question. Try again.
Title: Re: Hussain - So as to save the world from devastation.
Post by: Mythbuster1 on October 08, 2021, 10:20:58 AM
You avoided my question. Try again.

Wind your neck in kid your question was answered.

Q) I will let you explain how you believe Quran proves Muhammed pbuh

A) surah Imran verse 3/144

Or did you have a secret codified question that only the mentally deranged can understand?
Title: Re: Hussain - So as to save the world from devastation.
Post by: Soccer on October 08, 2021, 02:03:05 PM
Wind your neck in kid your question was answered.

Q) I will let you explain how you believe Quran proves Muhammed pbuh

A) surah Imran verse 3/144

Or did you have a secret codified question that only the mentally deranged can understand?

That doesn't prove Mohammad (s), that is a statement of emphasis that Mohammad (s) has been proven.
Title: Re: Hussain - So as to save the world from devastation.
Post by: Mythbuster1 on October 09, 2021, 02:23:01 PM
That doesn't prove Mohammad (s), that is a statement of emphasis that Mohammad (s) has been proven.

Yes proven from the Quran, that’s what we are talking about. A statement of emphasis from the Quran meaning Allah swt’s statement on the importance of that message of nabuwwah.

Against your theories and assumptions it sure does prove it.

Title: Re: Hussain - So as to save the world from devastation.
Post by: Soccer on October 09, 2021, 02:28:23 PM
Yes proven from the Quran, that’s what we are talking about. A statement of emphasis from the Quran meaning Allah swt’s statement on the importance of that message of nabuwwah.

Against your theories and assumptions it sure does prove it.

Still avoiding the question, maybe, because you only follow Islam because you born into it?
Title: Re: Hussain - So as to save the world from devastation.
Post by: Mythbuster1 on October 09, 2021, 02:33:36 PM
Still avoiding the question, maybe, because you only follow Islam because you born into it?

Answered clearly not by my assumptions or theories which you are doing.

Born into it and still learning the beautiful deen till the day I am buried Alhamdulillah.

Unlike you adding and assuming and creating fictional characters that can move atoms and trying to bend verses of Quran to bow to your whims and desires as has been seen by your subpar posts.
Title: Re: Hussain - So as to save the world from devastation.
Post by: Soccer on October 09, 2021, 03:33:08 PM
Unlike you adding and assuming and creating fictional characters that can move atoms and trying to bend verses of Quran to bow to your whims and desires as has been seen by your subpar posts.

The 4:54 emphasizes on the greatness of the Authority of Ahlulbayt of Ibrahim (a).  The Quran expands on that and shows they can move atoms and even revive dead people as part of the Authority given to them and that showing miracles is a sign they are to obeyed by God's permission and are his trusted kings on earth.

So definitely the "Amr" in 4:59 includes all that.






Title: Re: Hussain - So as to save the world from devastation.
Post by: Mythbuster1 on October 09, 2021, 05:15:50 PM
The 4:54 emphasizes on the greatness of the Authority of Ahlulbayt of Ibrahim (a).  The Quran expands on that and shows they can move atoms and even revive dead people as part of the Authority given to them and that showing miracles is a sign they are to obeyed by God's permission and are his trusted kings on earth.

So definitely the "Amr" in 4:59 includes all that.








No it doesn’t and you sound ridiculous with that assumption of nonsense, stop interpreting it the way you hear whispers of shaytaan.

No verse 4;59 doesn’t, “amr” means authority by a human after Allah swt and prophet pbuh.

Look how ridiculous you sound in trying to twist the verse meaning so to accommodate your idea of atom moving supermen and then trying your level best to correlate it with a verse about a prophet as  which has nothing to do with the verse 4:59.

Get rid of that idea of atom moving dead raising supermen who can tell futures and live for 1000’s of years from your nugget of a brain then maybe just maybe you can approach the Quran with a clear mind and it would make sense not just to you but to the ones whom you may converse with as it is for all just like the prophet pbuh was for all mankind who never moved any atoms raised any dead …….yet the followers could?!?!?!?

Title: Re: Hussain - So as to save the world from devastation.
Post by: Soccer on October 09, 2021, 05:56:44 PM
4:54 emphasizes on the greatness of Authority of Ahlulbayt of the past, and means the Amr in 4:59 is same type and means you to been given an Ahlulbayt so obey them to obey God.
Title: Re: Hussain - So as to save the world from devastation.
Post by: Soccer on October 09, 2021, 07:41:52 PM
as it is for all just like the prophet pbuh was for all mankind who never moved any atoms raised any dead …….yet the followers could?!?!?!?

Prophet raised (a) dead person(s) per Quran and challenged the soothsayers/sorcerers do the same per Quran.