TwelverShia.net Forum

Iran's Islamic Revolution

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Cherub786

Iran's Islamic Revolution
« on: November 17, 2018, 05:54:32 AM »
I must admit I admire Khomeini as a political figure. Without going into the religious aspect of Iran's revolution and how it was transformed into a Shiite theocracy, I believe that Iran as a nation is better off under the rule of Mullas (despite their sect) unlike the rest of the Muslim world which is under the domination of dynasties, military strongmen and feudal aristocracies. Iran's Council of Experts is a neat idea and works well too. It is expected that after Khamanei there may not be a single supreme leader but instead this Council will rule the country collectively - i.e., Wilayat al Faqih will evolve into Wilayat al Fuqaha. Regrettably the Ulama in the Sunni world wield very little political influence.
Forbidden_Link

Hani

Re: Iran's Islamic Revolution
« Reply #1 on: November 17, 2018, 07:11:15 AM »
I know 70 mil Iranians who'd disagree with you and flee into neighboring gulf countries or the west.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Cherub786

Re: Iran's Islamic Revolution
« Reply #2 on: November 17, 2018, 07:27:44 AM »
I know 70 mil Iranians who'd disagree with you and flee into neighboring gulf countries or the west.

That is quite an exaggeration. If we are talking about today there is of course great economic distress in the country due to the sanctions. Khomeini was a capable leader but the current supreme leader Khamanei lacks the charisma and greatness of Khomeini. Nevertheless, you have to admit the standard of living in Iran is superior to Pakistan, Egypt, Bangladesh or Indonesia. The Gulf sheikhdoms are not nations. We can't compare Qatar with its 2 million people to a nation like Iran that has 80 million.
As I understand it, the greatest fervor for the revolution was in rural Iran. The Iranian diaspora that we encounter in Western countries come from an elite wealthy and liberal class and don't represent the nation at large.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2018, 07:29:25 AM by Cherub786 »
Forbidden_Link

Rationalist

Re: Iran's Islamic Revolution
« Reply #3 on: November 17, 2018, 05:50:30 PM »
Khomeini was a capable leader but the current supreme leader Khamanei lacks the charisma and greatness of Khomeini.
They lived in different times. The comparison cannot be made. Khomeini ruled in an era of a decade of war, whereas Khamenei ruled in times of recovery.
Quote
Nevertheless, you have to admit the standard of living in Iran is superior to Pakistan, Egypt, Bangladesh or Indonesia.
The simple reason is oil. The other countries are not blessed with oil. Then again is oil is curse? According to Shaykh Imran Hosein oil is the mountain of gold which will cause conflict. Also, an Iranian told me most of the money is put into Tehran. The remaining cities are still lack funding. Likewise, if you look at Islamabad vs the rest of Pakistan you will see a big difference.




Rationalist

Re: Iran's Islamic Revolution
« Reply #4 on: November 17, 2018, 05:57:03 PM »
Iran's Council of Experts is a neat idea and works well too. It is expected that after Khamanei there may not be a single supreme leader but instead this Council will rule the country collectively - i.e., Wilayat al Faqih will evolve into Wilayat al Fuqaha. Regrettably the Ulama in the Sunni world wield very little political influence.

Norman Finkelstein went to Iran, and he was told that  Khamenei doesn't allow anyone to question him. All form of media and journalism is censored.

Refer to the 20:50 min mark of this clip.


Cherub786

Re: Iran's Islamic Revolution
« Reply #5 on: November 17, 2018, 06:19:30 PM »
According to Shaykh Imran Hosein oil is the mountain of gold which will cause conflict.

Oil definitely causes conflict, but so does opium (i.e. Afghanistan).

The mountain of gold Hadith can't be referring to oil though, because it is suppose to be under the Euphrates river only.
Forbidden_Link

Cherub786

Re: Iran's Islamic Revolution
« Reply #6 on: November 17, 2018, 06:39:30 PM »
Also a mountain of gold is a lot more valuable than its equivalent in barrels of oil.
Forbidden_Link

Cherub786

Re: Iran's Islamic Revolution
« Reply #7 on: November 17, 2018, 07:18:03 PM »
They lived in different times. The comparison cannot be made. Khomeini ruled in an era of a decade of war, whereas Khamenei ruled in times of recovery.

Khomeini's brilliance lies in how he seized power in the first place. Khamanei could have never pulled it off. He was not even a Marja. It is also known that Khamanei is very corrupt and has taken kickbacks to amass a personal fortune of billions of dollars. Khomeini at least had personal integrity in that sense.

Remember, Khomeini pulled off this revolution while abroad. It took brilliance to maintain a channel of contact with the Iranian people while he was in exile in Iraq then France.
Khomeini articulated the revolutionary ideology, Khamanei simply pays lip service to it.

Khomeini had a philosophical mind. He was very much influenced by Mulla Sadra. Khamanei has no intellectual contribution.
Forbidden_Link

Cherub786

Re: Iran's Islamic Revolution
« Reply #8 on: November 17, 2018, 07:37:56 PM »
Now it has to be admitted that the contemporary Sunni world has been unable to produce such a figure as Khomeini. Sure we have our political thinkers like Sayyid Qutb, Mawdudi, Jamal Afghani, Iqbal. But none of these thinkers ever led a successful political revolution. None of them could establish a viable state. As for our Ulama, the major centers of Sunni learning, i.e., al-Azhar, Deoband, and Medina University, have been unable to produce any kind of groundbreaking scholarship. In the case of al-Azhar, that is at least partially due to the fact that it lacks independence from the state. On the other hand, the Qom Hawza has a lot of diversity of thought and dynamism. Perhaps that is due to the power of the Shia Ulama because they are funded through Khums while the Arab Sunni ulama are dependent on the ministry of awqaf. In Iraq the Shia Ulama are politically active and powerful. Think about Muqtada and the al-Hakim family.

Because our Sunni Ulama wield so little influence and because they lack dynamism, the Sunni world is in disarray.
Forbidden_Link

Rationalist

Re: Iran's Islamic Revolution
« Reply #9 on: November 17, 2018, 09:20:43 PM »
Also a mountain of gold is a lot more valuable than its equivalent in barrels of oil.

Really? Today's paper money is mainly converted by oil. USD controls OPEC. It is the modern gold. Also, oil is referred to as black gold. On top of that I am sure we have the technology today to detect gold. So, are you telling me a mountain of gold is still hidden under the Euphrates?

Rationalist

Re: Iran's Islamic Revolution
« Reply #10 on: November 17, 2018, 10:42:44 PM »
Khomeini's brilliance lies in how he seized power in the first place. Khamanei could have never pulled it off. He was not even a Marja. It is also known that Khamanei is very corrupt and has taken kickbacks to amass a personal fortune of billions of dollars. Khomeini at least had personal integrity in that sense.
Remember, Khomeini pulled off this revolution while abroad. It took brilliance to maintain a channel of contact with the Iranian people while he was in exile in Iraq then France.
Khomeini articulated the revolutionary ideology, Khamanei simply pays lip service to it
Yah its strange how he got expelled from Iran, and found refuge in France. I believe in the early days Khomeini wanted good relations with US. They actually have some classifieds documents stating this.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jun/10/ayatollah-khomeini-jimmy-carter-administration-iran-revolution

http://news.files.bbci.co.uk/ws/documents/persian/bbc_persian_islam_in_iran.pdf
 
Refer to the 11 min mark for more details.
https://youtu.be/Cp8VQfi45OM

.

Cherub786

Re: Iran's Islamic Revolution
« Reply #11 on: November 17, 2018, 11:33:45 PM »
Really? Today's paper money is mainly converted by oil.

What? The USD is backed by gold not oil.

Quote
USD controls OPEC. It is the modern gold. Also, oil is referred to as black gold.

That may be so, but I think it's a stretch to say the mountain of gold refers to oil. The Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم could have simply said that the people will fight over oil if he wanted to. And even if oil is considered black gold, real gold is still way more valuable. A mountain of gold is immensely more valuable than its equivalent in barrels of oil.

A barrel of oil (42 gallons) is hovering around $70 at the moment.
A kilo of gold is like $40,000!

Quote
On top of that I am sure we have the technology today to detect gold. So, are you telling me a mountain of gold is still hidden under the Euphrates?

Gold is constantly being mined. It is possible the mountain of gold beneath the Euphrates simply hasn't been discovered yet. It is one thing to mine gold from dry land, but quite another to mine underwater. Only when the basin dries will it be easier to detect that gold in my opinion, as the Hadith says the Euphrates will give way and uncover a mountain of gold.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2018, 11:36:32 PM by Cherub786 »
Forbidden_Link

Rationalist

Re: Iran's Islamic Revolution
« Reply #12 on: November 17, 2018, 11:46:34 PM »
What? The USD is backed by gold not oil.
In 1970's Henry Kissinger made deal with King Faisal to sell oil in USD.



Is U.S. currency still backed by gold?
No, when the United States stopped selling gold to foreign official holders of dollars at the rate of $35 an ounce in 1971, it brought the gold exchange standard to an end. In 1973, the United States officially ended its adherence to the gold standard. Many other industrialized nations also switched from a system of fixed exchange rates to a system of floating rates. In August 1974, President Ford repealed the prohibition on the public's owning gold or engaging in gold transactions. Today, no country bans private ownership of gold.


https://www.richmondfed.org/faqs/gold_silver

Cherub786

Re: Iran's Islamic Revolution
« Reply #13 on: November 17, 2018, 11:51:00 PM »
In 1970's Henry Kissinger made deal with King Faisal to sell oil in USD.
Is U.S. currency still backed by gold?
No, when the United States stopped selling gold to foreign official holders of dollars at the rate of $35 an ounce in 1971, it brought the gold exchange standard to an end. In 1973, the United States officially ended its adherence to the gold standard. Many other industrialized nations also switched from a system of fixed exchange rates to a system of floating rates. In August 1974, President Ford repealed the prohibition on the public's owning gold or engaging in gold transactions. Today, no country bans private ownership of gold.


https://www.richmondfed.org/faqs/gold_silver

Hmm I didn't know that. Apparently the USD is no longer backed by gold, but it isn't backed by oil either.
Forbidden_Link

Rationalist

Re: Iran's Islamic Revolution
« Reply #14 on: November 18, 2018, 12:48:15 AM »
Hmm I didn't know that. Apparently the USD is no longer backed by gold, but it isn't backed by oil either.
The agreement between US and Saudi is that US prints all the money in US banks. Then it stays in US and never goes to Saudi.  With that money Saudi can decide how they want to spend it. That's why back in the day they used to go to Disney world and book all the hotel rooms for just one person. As for backing you are right that USD isn't backed by oil. However, all oil must be sold in USD. This forces every country to keep USD. This is why oil is the main reason to keep the USD in demand.

Mythbuster1

Re: Iran's Islamic Revolution
« Reply #15 on: November 19, 2018, 11:12:46 AM »
Interesting subject from the brothers, I have often wondered about the mountain of gold under the Euphrates and if it is gold itself.

Layla

Re: Iran's Islamic Revolution
« Reply #16 on: November 23, 2018, 09:47:02 AM »
That is quite an exaggeration. If we are talking about today there is of course great economic distress in the country due to the sanctions. Khomeini was a capable leader but the current supreme leader Khamanei lacks the charisma and greatness of Khomeini. Nevertheless, you have to admit the standard of living in Iran is superior to Pakistan, Egypt, Bangladesh or Indonesia. The Gulf sheikhdoms are not nations. We can't compare Qatar with its 2 million people to a nation like Iran that has 80 million.
As I understand it, the greatest fervor for the revolution was in rural Iran. The Iranian diaspora that we encounter in Western countries come from an elite wealthy and liberal class and don't represent the nation at large.
Have you ever been to Iran? The standard of living in Iran is the same as the countries you mentioned.

Mythbuster1

Re: Iran's Islamic Revolution
« Reply #17 on: November 23, 2018, 02:22:42 PM »
Nevertheless, you have to admit the standard of living in Iran is superior to Pakistan, Egypt, Bangladesh or Indonesia.

That really isn’t true maybe in your mind it’s true but in reality it’s not, this link will show the standards are much higher in Pakistan than Iran

https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_countries_result.jsp?country1=Pakistan&country2=Iran

Hadrami

Re: Iran's Islamic Revolution
« Reply #18 on: November 25, 2018, 03:57:02 PM »
Nevertheless, you have to admit the standard of living in Iran is superior to Pakistan, Egypt, Bangladesh or Indonesia.
Although this is not the best way to compare, but just by looking at the size of the business district and skyscrappers in their capital, looks like economically, indonesia is way more modern and advanced than iran. And they don't have unlimited oil money plus have to look after 4 times the population of iran. The best comparison probably iran with egypt as they have almost similar no of people, but again egypt doesnt have iran's oil money.

iceman

Re: Iran's Islamic Revolution
« Reply #19 on: November 28, 2018, 04:05:22 PM »
I know 70 mil Iranians who'd disagree with you and flee into neighboring gulf countries or the west.

And absolutely and completely disagree with you. The Iranians don't flee. They didn't flee when Shah of Iran went tough and brutal on them backed by the west. The majority are happy and only a handful left. If the Iranian people want then believe me they will overthrow any regime.

 

Related Topics

  Subject / Started by Replies Last post
3 Replies
1719 Views
Last post March 14, 2016, 10:23:48 PM
by Hani
1 Replies
1030 Views
Last post May 22, 2016, 08:36:01 PM
by Rationalist
4 Replies
1082 Views
Last post February 18, 2017, 08:30:05 AM
by Husayn
45 Replies
3183 Views
Last post February 19, 2018, 09:51:47 AM
by TURJUMAN