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Syed Ali and Bayat al Ghadeer Destroyed

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Hani

Re: Syed Ali and Bayat al Ghadeer Destroyed
« Reply #20 on: May 09, 2018, 04:50:11 AM »
(  ._.) how many times do I gotta tell you, what my Imams (3) said was that this verse was metaphorical. Khalas!

https://archive.org/stream/AlAqidahAlWasitiyahCommentraryBySalehAlUsayminVol1/123-163Mb#page/n115/mode/2up
yet again? page 233 "But if you by body, a Self maintaining itself, described as is befitting it, then we do affirm that. We say Allah, the Exalted, definitely has an essence, maintaining Himself, with the perfect Attributes. - Ibn Taymiyyah.

And again, how many times do I have to repeat this. I am telling you that YOU GUYS believe that Allah has a body - unlike any other, OR has hands - unlike any other. I am not saying you believe that he has hands like me and you, but with an extra finger. I am saying as it is said "unlike any other". But the thing is, the problems comes when you say that. (Because now I can think of a Lord greater than that)

Not really, that's what some Shia Hadithists preserved for you and most of it is not accurately transmitted, check al-Sahifa al-Sajjadiyyah of `Ali Zayn al-`Abidin that is considered an esteemed work relied upon by Shia, the Imam in his supplication says:

"O God, grant me the joy of looking up at your face."

As for you saying the Salaf believed God had a body unlike others, nobody said this, no one said "Body". They affirmed what God affirmed for Himself without diving into baseless interpretations, they did not believe it permissible to interpret Qur'an based on their own opinions without a religious text from the Prophet (saw) and his companions.

Your simple mind is probably thinking, "they affirmed hand so they affirmed a body", this is erroneous, hand does not equal body, unless you think it's a physical hand composed of atoms contained in space like your hand (which it isn't).
« Last Edit: May 09, 2018, 04:56:34 AM by Hani »
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Hani

Re: Syed Ali and Bayat al Ghadeer Destroyed
« Reply #21 on: May 09, 2018, 04:55:28 AM »
"I am not a Salafi and I do not adopt the stance of the early Muslims regarding God's names and attributes, yet I can assure you they do neither limit nor confine to a body."

Dont worry, I got ibn Taymiyyah's opinion.
https://archive.org/stream/AlAqidahAlWasitiyahCommentraryBySalehAlUsayminVol1/123-163Mb#page/n61/mode/2up
Just read from page 125 at "It becomes clear (...)" till the end of the page.
"He rose over the Throne" - Al-A'raf 7:54
Meaning - rose above it; its meaning is not: "He conquered it," And with His Hand, meaning - Hand, in reality, not might or favor." - Ibn Taymiyyah

So dont do taqiyyah on me.  ;)
btw, dont you believe you will see Allah's face in Jannah? That enough is a proof that you attribute physical things to Him.


I'm talking about the Salaf and you're quoting Ibn Taymiyyah a late scholar that dove into philosophy and rational theology. The scholars of the early Salaf would never get into these matters to begin with. Do you think the ancient Arabs were philosophers who understood complicated concepts like later Arabs?
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Hugo Boss

Re: Syed Ali and Bayat al Ghadeer Destroyed
« Reply #22 on: May 09, 2018, 07:46:25 PM »
can you show me where it says "O God, grant me the joy of looking up at your face" so that I can find more info about it? Also, I like how you switched from your "proof" of that Allah SWT will show himself on the day of judgement. Again, why do I have to repeat myself? If you believe you are going to see Allah SWT on the day of judgement, then why are we even discussing this? This means he already has a body. I also like how your school of thought has given the "sahaba" the right to interpret the verses, but we cant.
Again, once you now know that he has a face etc. (since you believe you will see it), this then means that I can imagine a Lord greater (by my previous proof).
What's the problem with me quoting "Shaikhul Islam"? Dont you take him reliable?

Hugo Boss

Re: Syed Ali and Bayat al Ghadeer Destroyed
« Reply #23 on: May 09, 2018, 07:49:16 PM »
no not really. You seemed to have forgotten this verse: Say, "If the sea were ink for [writing] the words of my Lord, the sea would be exhausted before the words of my Lord were exhausted, even if We brought the like of it as a supplement."
https://quran.com/18/109

There is simply not enough space for this world to describe Allah SWT. So these 99 names are only limited by our dictionaries. Not Allah's SWT fault.

Hugo Boss

Re: Syed Ali and Bayat al Ghadeer Destroyed
« Reply #24 on: May 09, 2018, 07:58:39 PM »
I think you forgot this verse too.
http://corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=3&verse=144
http://corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=47&verse=32

We simply were created to worship Allah SWT. Allah SWT does not gain anything or lose anything. And we are talking about the "attributes" of Allah SWT and NOT His creations

Hani

Re: Syed Ali and Bayat al Ghadeer Destroyed
« Reply #25 on: May 10, 2018, 07:03:01 AM »
1- Seeing God in the afterlife is not similar to looking at an object in the physical worldly life, does not entail the body you speak of as previously mentioned. Sounds more like you're talking about a pops-tickle stick instead of the God of the after-life.

2- 99 names are not due to limitation of paper/ink, I'm sure there was a bit more ink to add an extra name.

3- `Ali Zayn al-`Abidin constantly mentions looking at God in his Sahifah, examples:

 اللَّهُمَّ إِنَّكَ إِنْ صَرَفْتَ عَنِّي وَجْهَكَ الْكَرِيم‏
"O Lord, if you were to turn your kind face away from me"

حَمْداً يَجِبُ لِكَرَمِ وَجْهِك‏
"A praise worthy of the kindness of your face"

بِجَلَالِ وَجْهِكَ الْكَرِيمِ، الَّذِي لَا يَبْلَى وَ لَا يَتَغَيَّرُ، وَ لَا يَحُولُ وَ لَا يَفْنَى‏
"By the glory of your kind face that does not deteriorate nor change, (a face) that does not perish with time's passing"

الْخُشَّعُ الابْصارِ فلا يَرُومُونَ النَّظَرَ إلَيْكَ
"Their eyes lowered (on that day), they do not attempt to look at You"

وَشَوَّقْتَهُ إِلىٰ لِقَائِكَ وَرَضَّيْتَهُ بِقَضائِكَ، وَمَنَحْتَهُ بِالنَّظَرِ إلىٰ وَجْهِكَ
"Made him yearn for the meeting with You, made him pleased with Your decree and granted him (the joy of) gazing upon Your face"

وَلا تَحْجُبْ مُشْتاقِيكَ عَنِ النَّظَرِ إلَىٰ جَمِيلِ رُؤْيَتِكَ
"Place no veil to obstruct those who yearn from seeing the beauty upon looking at you"

وَشَوْقِي إلَيْكَ لا يَبُلُّهُ إِلاَّ النَّظَرُ إِلىٰ وَجْهِكَ
"My yearning for you shall not be quenched except after looking at your face"

فِي الْقُرْبىٰ مِنْكَ، وَالزُّلْفىٰ لَدَيْكَ، وَالتَّمَتُّعِ بِالنَّظَرِ إلَيْكَ،
"Through nearness to you, proximity with you and the enjoyment of gazing upon You"
« Last Edit: May 10, 2018, 07:04:03 AM by Hani »
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: Syed Ali and Bayat al Ghadeer Destroyed
« Reply #26 on: May 10, 2018, 12:20:21 PM »
Abu Basir said that he told Imam Sadiq (a.s): “I have been told that God will not take away anyone’s eyesight unless He grants him a reward in Heaven.” Imam Sadiq (a.s) said: “There is some thing there (in Heaven) that is even better.” Abu Basir asked: “What is it?” The Imam (a.s) replied: “It is seeing God’s face.”(Shia book, MISHKAT UL-ANWAR FI GHURAR AL-AKHBAR page 24, by Hassan ibn Fazl ibn Hassan Tabarsi)

muslim720

Re: Syed Ali and Bayat al Ghadeer Destroyed
« Reply #27 on: May 10, 2018, 05:06:03 PM »
When did this become a problem?

Esteemed Shia Scholar Shareef al-Murtada attempted to defend the position of Hisham bin al-Hakam, by stating:

فأما ما رمي به هشام بن الحكم رحمه الله بالتجسيم فالظاهر من الحكاية عنه القول بجسم لا كالأجسام. ولا خلاف في أن هذا القول ليس تشبيه ولا ناقض لأصل
As for the accusation that Hisham bin al-Hakam (rah) was a Mujassim; What’s apparent from the story is that he believed that God was a body unlike other bodies and there is no difference among us that this statement does not constitute Tashbih nor contradict any foundation. [al-Shafi 1/83-84]

Hasan bin al-Shaheed al-Thani said the similar thing:

    حكى السيد رحمه الله من كتاب أحمد بن محمد بن خالد البرقي في حال هشام انه قال: هشام بن الحكم، مولى بني شيبان كوفي، تحول من الكوفة إلى بغداد، وكنيته أبو محمد، وفي كتاب سعد: له كتاب، وكان من غلمان أبي شاكر الزنديق، جسمي رؤيي (2). قلت: ذكر المرتضى رضي الله عنه في كتاب الشافي جوابا لرمي هشام بالتجسيم ما هذا لفظه: فأما ما رمي به هشام بن الحكم رحمه الله من القول (3) بالتجسيم فالظاهر من الحكاية عنه القول بجسم لا كالاجسام، ولا خلاف في أن
    هذا القول ليس بتشبيه
it was narrated by Sayeed (may Allah forgive him) from the book of Ahmad ibn Muhammad ibn Khalid al-Barqi about Hisham: Hisham ibn Hakam, Mawla of Banu Shayban Kufi, moved from al-Kufa to Baghdad, and his kunya was Abu Muhammad, and in the book of Sad: He (Hisham) has a books, and was from servants of Abu Shakeer HERETIC, (HISHAM) HOLD ANTHROPOMORPHIC VIEWS. I say: Al-Murtada (may Allah be pleased with him) mentioned in his book ash-Shafi answer to the accusation of Hisham in anthropomorphism, with this words: As for accusation of Hisham ibn Hakam (may Allah forgive him) in anthropomorphism then what is apparent from what was narrated from him, he use to say (that Allah has) body not like (all) bodies, AND THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE IN THE VIEWS THAT THIS SAYING IS NOT LIKENING (ALLAH TO THE CREATION).[Tahrir at-Tawusi, p 594]

So your Scholars didn't view as something problematic, if a Shia believed that Allah has a body unlike any other body. But it seems you guys have evolved even in this matter as well, as you did in regards to your other beliefs.

You beat me to it.  I was going to mention Hisham bin Hakam who - according to Shias trying to clarify or whitewash his position - is said to have defined "existence" as "body".  In other words, anything that existed had a body, according to Hisham bin Hakam; so anything that "exists" is a "body", according to those who defend Hisham.  That is what his apologists say.  So when Hisham said Allah (swt) has a body, his defenders say that he only meant that He (swt) exists. 

Whether this defense (of Hisham) is sufficient or not is another matter!  Hugo Boss has been refuted and I can see his unnecessary clinging on to something already shattered.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2018, 05:07:06 PM by muslim720 »
"Our coward ran from those in authority" - Iceman (admitting the truth regarding his 12th Imam)

Hani

Re: Syed Ali and Bayat al Ghadeer Destroyed
« Reply #28 on: May 10, 2018, 10:46:21 PM »
The two biggest philosophers of the Shia sect are Nasir al-Din al-Tusi and Mulla Sadra al-Shirazi, the latter openly says God is "A godly body." and he classes bodies into different types.

Anyway, not our concern what some philosophers said. The matter is not so simplistically dumb as some laypeople like to portray it.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

GreatChineseFall

Re: Syed Ali and Bayat al Ghadeer Destroyed
« Reply #29 on: May 10, 2018, 10:57:03 PM »
I'm talking about the Salaf and you're quoting Ibn Taymiyyah a late scholar that dove into philosophy and rational theology. The scholars of the early Salaf would never get into these matters to begin with. Do you think the ancient Arabs were philosophers who understood complicated concepts like later Arabs?

I don't even think they speculated in matters of Fiqh let alone matters like the attributes of Allah, I vaguely remember reading that the scholars of Medina in the early days, when people came to them with a case and asking for a fatwa, one of the first things the scholars asked was if the case already occurred. If they answered negatively, then the scholars would send them back without giving a fatwa.

 

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