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A question on the refutations of Al tijani

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A question on the refutations of Al tijani
« on: June 29, 2016, 12:35:24 AM »
Salam alaikum

My question is mainly on the refutation of "Ask those who know" Section 5.

I can see Sheikh Uthman Al khamees defending "Hind" saying she was a believer, But if I am not mistaken is she not the one who ate Hamza (ra)'s liver ?

And did she become a Muslim?

Abu Jasim Al-Salafi

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Re: A question on the refutations of Al tijani
« Reply #1 on: June 29, 2016, 01:43:26 AM »
The claim that Hind Bint 'Utba (رضي الله عنها) ate the liver of Hamza (رضي الله عنه) is FALSE.

And I dare any Rafidhi to bring me an authentic narration that proves this absurd claim.

And yes, Hind Bint 'Utba (رضي الله عنها) was a Muslim(a).

And let's suppose that she ate the liver of Hamza (رضي الله عنها), this doesn't necessarily make her an unbeliever!
« Last Edit: June 29, 2016, 01:45:00 AM by Abu Jasim Al-Salafi »
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Abu Jasim Al-Salafi

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Re: A question on the refutations of Al tijani
« Reply #2 on: June 29, 2016, 01:57:28 AM »
Also, what's known in the books of Ahlus-Sunnah is that Wahshi (وحشي), a slave, killed Hamza (رضي الله عنه), by the order of Jubair bin Mut`im, not Hind Bint 'Utba (رضي الله عنها).

Narrated Jafar bin `Amr bin Umaiya:

I went out with 'Ubaidullah bin `Adi Al-Khaiyar. When we reached Hims (i.e. a town in Syria), 'Ubaidullah bin `Adi said (to me), "Would you like to see Wahshi so that we may ask him about the killing of Hamza?" I replied, "Yes." Wahshi used to live in Hims. We enquired about him and somebody said to us, "He is that in the shade of his palace, as if he were a full water skin." So we went up to him, and when we were at a short distance from him, we greeted him and he greeted us in return. 'Ubaidullah was wearing his turban and Wahshi could not see except his eyes and feet. 'Ubaidullah said, "O Wahshi! Do you know me?" Wahshi looked at him and then said, "No, by Allah! But I know that `Adi bin Al-Khiyar married a woman called Um Qital, the daughter of Abu Al-Is, and she delivered a boy for him at Mecca, and I looked for a wet nurse for that child. (Once) I carried that child along with his mother and then I handed him over to her, and your feet resemble that child's feet." Then 'Ubaidullah uncovered his face and said (to Wahshi), "Will you tell us (the story of) the killing of Hamza?" Wahshi replied "Yes, Hamza killed Tuaima bin `Adi bin Al-Khaiyar at Badr (battle) so my master, Jubair bin Mut`im said to me, 'If you kill Hamza in revenge for my uncle, then you will be set free."

- Sahih al-Bukhari 4072.
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MuslimK

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Re: A question on the refutations of Al tijani
« Reply #3 on: June 29, 2016, 02:42:53 AM »
Walaikum Salam,

She became Muslim at the Conquest of Makkah. So even if she ate the liver of Sayyidu-Shuhada Hamza then it was before her Islam.
در خلافت میل نیست ای بی‌خبر
میل کی آید ز بوبکر و عمر
میل اگر بودی در آن دو مقتدا
هر دو کردندی پسر را پیشوا

عطار نِیشابوری

www.Nahjul-Balagha.net | www.TwelverShia.net | www.ghadirkhumm.com

Re: A question on the refutations of Al tijani
« Reply #4 on: June 29, 2016, 03:21:28 PM »
ok tanx alot.
But is there actually any Authentic hadith about the eating of the liver ?

and who actually did it ?

Ibn Yahya

Re: A question on the refutations of Al tijani
« Reply #5 on: July 01, 2016, 04:39:32 AM »
Lol eating a persons liver bars you from ever becoming a muslim. Shias never really say this stuff to themselves in their heads before posting those kinds of things do they because its just bizzare. I mean its beyond silly or juvenile its just plain random.

To be honest though people say that only and only because of that movie about Rasul Allah (Sall allaahu alayhi wa salim).

Farid

Re: A question on the refutations of Al tijani
« Reply #6 on: July 01, 2016, 06:10:00 AM »
Quote
To be honest though people say that only and only because of that movie about Rasul Allah (Sall allaahu alayhi wa salim).

Very true. Mustafa Aqqad's "The Message" was shown to us at least three times in school. I'm pretty sure most Arabs get the majority of their Seerah lessons from that movie.

Ibn Yahya

Re: A question on the refutations of Al tijani
« Reply #7 on: July 02, 2016, 07:51:38 AM »

Very true. Mustafa Aqqad's "The Message" was shown to us at least three times in school. I'm pretty sure most Arabs get the majority of their Seerah lessons from that movie.

Videos and movies are the main source of info for people who cant be bothered to open a book but want to look smart. Its way you see shiachat posts are mostly layed out in the same way a speech is rather than an academic piece

Abu Jasim Al-Salafi

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Re: A question on the refutations of Al tijani
« Reply #8 on: July 03, 2016, 09:10:43 PM »
ok tanx alot.
But is there actually any Authentic hadith about the eating of the liver ?

and who actually did it ?

No brother, and there is no single authentic narration that proves Hamza's liver was even eaten!

What happened was that Jubair bin Mut`im, the owner of the slave Wahshi, told his slave Wahshi to kill Hamza if he wanted to be freed from slavery (See Sahih al-Bukhari 4072). This is what the authentic narrations tell us.
May Allah guide the Shi'a to the truth. Ameen.

Student of Comparative Religion - Refuter of allegations made against Islam by Christians and Atheists.

Optimus Prime

Re: A question on the refutations of Al tijani
« Reply #9 on: July 04, 2016, 02:08:24 AM »
ok tanx alot.
But is there actually any Authentic hadith about the eating of the liver ?

and who actually did it ?

No brother, and there is no single authentic narration that proves Hamza's liver was even eaten!

What happened was that Jubair bin Mut`im, the owner of the slave Wahshi, told his slave Wahshi to kill Hamza if he wanted to be freed from slavery (See Sahih al-Bukhari 4072). This is what the authentic narrations tell us.

Asalamualaikum.

What about Hamza's body being mutilated?

Abu Jasim Al-Salafi

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Re: A question on the refutations of Al tijani
« Reply #10 on: July 04, 2016, 05:34:06 PM »
Quote
Asalamualaikum.

What about Hamza's body being mutilated?

Brother, we read in Jami` at-Tirmidhi Chapter: What Has Been Related About Those Killed At Uhud, and Mention of Hamza the following narration:


Anas bin Malik narrated:

"The Messenger of Allah came to Hamza on the Day of Uhud, he stood over him and saw that he had been mutilated. He said: Had it not been that Safiyyah would be distressed, then I would have left him to be eaten by the beasts until he was gathered on the Day of Judgment from their stomachs." He said: "Then he called for a Namirah to shroud him with. When it was extended over his head, it left his feet exposed, and when it was extended over his feet, it left his head exposed." He said: "There were many dead and few cloths." He said: "One, two and three men were shrouded in one cloth and buried in one grave." He said: "So the Messenger of Allah was asking which of them knew the most Quran, so he could put him toward the Qibalh." He said: "So the Messenger of Allah buried them and he did not perform (funeral prayers) for them."


Grade: Da'if (Darussalam)   
Reference: Jami` at-Tirmidhi 1016
In-book reference: Book 10, Hadith 52
English translation: Vol. 2, Book 5, Hadith 1016


Source: http://sunnah.com/tirmidhi/10/52


This is the only narration in the six authentic books of Ahlus-Sunnah that contains the fact that Hamza's body was mutilated, however, not all narrations in Jami` at-Tirmidhi is Sahih (authentic), and this narration is da'if (weak/not authentic).


And Allah knows best.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2016, 05:40:35 PM by Abu Jasim Al-Salafi »
May Allah guide the Shi'a to the truth. Ameen.

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Abu Jasim Al-Salafi

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Re: A question on the refutations of Al tijani
« Reply #11 on: July 04, 2016, 05:44:27 PM »
Also, take a look at Jami' at-Tirmidhi itself, here's a picture showing that the narration of Hamza's body being mutilated was only narrated by Anas ibn Malik and no body else but him!


Source (Jami' at-Tirmidhi in PDF Format): http://waqfeya.com/book.php?bid=1765 / http://ia800208.us.archive.org/7/items/gktgktgkt/gkt2.pdf
« Last Edit: July 04, 2016, 05:52:17 PM by Abu Jasim Al-Salafi »
May Allah guide the Shi'a to the truth. Ameen.

Student of Comparative Religion - Refuter of allegations made against Islam by Christians and Atheists.

Farid

Re: A question on the refutations of Al tijani
« Reply #12 on: July 05, 2016, 01:07:12 AM »
I would like to point out that Al Tirmithi is not weakening the narration because it is only narrated by Anas.

So this confirms mutilation of Hamza's body, but no specifics on how it was mutilated.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2016, 08:53:05 AM by Farid »

Optimus Prime

Re: A question on the refutations of Al tijani
« Reply #13 on: July 05, 2016, 08:01:01 AM »
I would like to point out that Al Tirmithi is not weakening the narration because it is only narrated by Anas.

What are his reasons for weakening this Hadith?

Farid

Re: A question on the refutations of Al tijani
« Reply #14 on: July 05, 2016, 08:51:40 AM »
He says it is not correct that Anas narrated it, but rather, this is the hadith of Jabir, and it is more correct.

Looks like Al Tirmithi authenticates it.

Optimus Prime

Re: A question on the refutations of Al tijani
« Reply #15 on: July 06, 2016, 02:04:32 AM »
The specifics are from the historical sources which, all scholars of seerah narrate even the chain cannot be authenticated as which, is the case with Islamic history.

How does Tirmidhi (RA) know it's not narrated from Anas? Is he assuming?

I take it the grading of Darussalam is just an their own ijtehad?

Farid

Re: A question on the refutations of Al tijani
« Reply #16 on: July 06, 2016, 04:03:59 AM »
Al Tirmithi provides an academic reason as to why he believes that this is the hadith of Jabir and not Anas.

Darussalam based their grading on what exactly?

Abu Jasim Al-Salafi

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Re: A question on the refutations of Al tijani
« Reply #17 on: July 06, 2016, 06:54:55 AM »
السلام عليكم

I have found that the well-known Hadith Scholar Muhammad Nasir-ud-Deen al-Albaani (رحمه الله) authenticated the narration of the mutilation of Hamza's body.

I apologize and retreat from the mistake of believing that this narration was weak. The narration appeared to me to be authentic after research, and I apologize to all of you.

Anas narrated that the Prophet (ﷺ) said: "Every son of Adam sins, and the best of the sinners are the repentant."

I did not mean to weaken an authentic narration (hadith) but my weak knowledge is the reason I made such mistake.

And Allah knows best.
May Allah guide the Shi'a to the truth. Ameen.

Student of Comparative Religion - Refuter of allegations made against Islam by Christians and Atheists.

Farid

Re: A question on the refutations of Al tijani
« Reply #18 on: July 06, 2016, 12:16:13 PM »
Barak Allah feek Bu Jassim.

Optimus Prime

Re: A question on the refutations of Al tijani
« Reply #19 on: July 07, 2016, 12:30:10 AM »
Al Tirmithi provides an academic reason as to why he believes that this is the hadith of Jabir and not Anas.

Darussalam based their grading on what exactly?

I have no idea. I thought you'd know.

If Tirmidhi had authenticated it, but Albani weakened it. Who's classification would you trust more?

 

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