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Abu bakr or ali first

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karim fattah

Abu bakr or ali first
« on: August 21, 2017, 10:40:20 PM »
Salam,

All the shia claim that ali ibn abi talib ra was supposed to be the frst caliph and that abu bakr ra took his place unjustly. And they use events like ghadir khumm, and narrations like you are like harun to me etc. To prove their point. Also the point that muhammad called ali the mawla etc tc.

What proofs do we have to show that no ali ra was supposed to be first but abu bakr was supposed to be the first caliph and therefor his khilafah was just

Thanks

Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: Abu bakr or ali first
« Reply #1 on: August 23, 2017, 02:37:27 PM »
Salam,

All the shia claim that ali ibn abi talib ra was supposed to be the frst caliph and that abu bakr ra took his place unjustly. And they use events like ghadir khumm, and narrations like you are like harun to me etc. To prove their point. Also the point that muhammad called ali the mawla etc tc.
Not only Muhammad(saws) calld Ali as Mawla, but even Umar(ra) during his Caliphate, called Ali as Mawla, which but natural means beloved friend, since Umar was the Leader of Muslims during his Caliphate.

Infact the two hadeeth you mentioned about Ghadeer and Manzila(...you are like Harun), then these reports are not explicit and unclear evidence as per Shia scholars, themselves.

In “Rasail” (1/339), Sharif Murtada discussed some well known Shia proofs for Imamate – like hadith of Ghadir Khum and Hadith of Tabuk(..you are like Harun). Ironically he added them to CONCEALED PROOFS FOR IMAMAH.

Esteemed Shia Scholar – Sheikh Sharif Murtada said:

وأما النص الخفي: فهو الذي ليس في صريحة لفظه النص بالامامة، وإنما ذلك في فحواه ومعناه، كخبر الغدير، وخبر تبوك

As for hidden text: that is the one in which text there is NO CLEAR indication to Imamah, but only in content and meaning, LIKE REPORT OF GHADIR AND REPORT OF TABUK. [“Rasail” vol 1, page 339]

So, here we have one of the top Shia Scholar – known as Alam ul Huda – who testifies that NEITHER HADITH OF GHADIR, NOR  HADITH OF MANZILAH CONTAIN CLEAR INDICATION ON IMAMAH.


And if you want to know, how Sahaba and some members from Ahlelbayt, understood these events, you need to refer this article:
https://youpuncturedtheark.wordpress.com/2016/04/14/the-ghadeer-khumm-event-as-understood-by-ahlelbayt-sahaba-ahlus-sunnah/


What proofs do we have to show that no ali ra was supposed to be first but abu bakr was supposed to be the first caliph and therefor his khilafah was just

Thanks
Refer this article:
Quranic verses and authentic ahadeeth that alluded to Caliphate of Imam Abubakr as-Siddeeq(as).
https://youpuncturedtheark.wordpress.com/2014/02/16/quranic-verses-and-authentic-ahadeeth-that-alluded-to-caliphate-of-imam-abubakr-as-siddeeqas/
« Last Edit: August 23, 2017, 02:39:13 PM by Noor-us-Sunnah »

omar111

Re: Abu bakr or ali first
« Reply #2 on: August 24, 2017, 06:58:19 PM »
Ali himself explains
Wahb As-Suwa’i reported: We were addressed by Ali, may Allah be pleased with him, and he said, “Who is the best of this nation after its Prophet?” I said, “You are, O leader of the believers!” Ali said, “No, the best of this nation after its Prophet is Abu Bakr and then Umar, may Allah be pleased with them. It is not far-fetched to say that tranquility was spoken on the tongue of Umar.”

Source: Musnad Ahmad 836

Grade: Sahih (authentic) according to Ahmad Shakir

عَنْ وَهْبٍ السُّوَائِيِّ قَالَ خَطَبَنَا عَلِيٌّ رَضِيَ اللَّهُ عَنْهُ فَقَالَ مَنْ خَيْرُ هَذِهِ الْأُمَّةِ بَعْدَ نَبِيِّهَا فَقُلْتُ أَنْتَ يَا أَمِيرَ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ قَالَ لَا خَيْرُ هَذِهِ الْأُمَّةِ بَعْدَ نَبِيِّهَا أَبُو بَكْرٍ ثُمَّ عُمَرُ رَضِيَ اللَّهُ عَنْهُ وَمَا نُبْعِدُ أَنَّ السَّكِينَةَ تَنْطِقُ عَلَى لِسَانِ عُمَرَ رَضِيَ اللَّهُ عَنْهُ

836 مسند أحمد مسند العشرة المبشرين بالجنة مسند الخلفاء الراشدين ومن مسند علي بن أبي طالب رضي الله عنه

المحدث أحمد شاكر خلاصة حكم المحدث إسناده صحيح

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Re: Abu bakr or ali first
« Reply #3 on: August 24, 2017, 07:12:08 PM »
Religious and moral leadership has to be the most important topic of any divine book.   It has to separate false leadership and leadership that God wants us to follow.

It has to explain in detail how to follow these leaders let alone who they are and their characteristics.

You have to be brain dead times a million to think a book from God would be silent over the issue of succession to the Prophet or religious leadership. It's insane to think God would be silent regarding this.

The Quran is not silent but has detailed explanation and emphasis on an argument that proves the true religion just as the divine books in the past proved it and were not silent, but rather were guidance and leaders that were coupled with living leaders of their time, would are coupled always with Twelve other Lions of God, predecessors and successors included, depending where they were in the line of guidance.

Dear recite Quran with some reflection and do not belittle a single verse in Quran. One sentence in Quran has a billion times more significance than all Sunnis and their scholars together.

The verse 5:12 for example is better in guidance than all of Sunni scholars together.

Shiite scholars are also not fit to explain Quran. Neither am I.

The best fit to explain it and manifest is the family of the reminder and each time has a family linked to the reminder of the time.

Ask the family of the reminder,  seek their words and help and light, and download your reflection from them, and let them make you reflect properly.

Their words are a cure, while the scholars cannot bring a single date seed to bring any blessings,  God swears by the fig and olive, and the Mount Sinai. As for Mount Sinai, look at the all the words with the covenant. The words "gate" "Captain" "Mountain" "Ways" "Portions/Grandchildren linking to one root" and "Rivers" is emphasized on, and that coupled with "Twelve".

Dear do not be ignorant, and look at the prayer of Moses.  Think about it and you will see it proves the need of successors.


See the Quran through God's Name and not haters towards his name and it's family of the time.

Look within your soul and the signs of God that are with you, and you will see the truth of the Quran.

« Last Edit: August 24, 2017, 07:14:17 PM by Link »
Love of the family of Yaseen is the light of the heavens and the earth.

Abu Muhammad

Re: Abu bakr or ali first
« Reply #4 on: August 24, 2017, 10:56:01 PM »
Link, you said nobody is fit to explain the Quran including you except for your so-called "family of reminder":

Dear recite Quran with some reflection and do not belittle a single verse in Quran. One sentence in Quran has a billion times more significance than all Sunnis and their scholars together.

The verse 5:12 for example is better in guidance than all of Sunni scholars together.

Shiite scholars are also not fit to explain Quran. Neither am I.

The best fit to explain it and manifest is the family of the reminder and each time has a family linked to the reminder of the time.

Ask the family of the reminder,  seek their words and help and light, and download your reflection from them, and let them make you reflect properly.


And what is this then?

http://forum.twelvershia.net/imamah-ghaybah/leadership-in-quran/

And the post you wrote just half an hour prior to your post above as below:

http://forum.twelvershia.net/quran-tafseer/those-in-light-vs-those-in-darkness/msg17636/#new

That's why nobody is taking you seriously. You are such a confused soul. Pity.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2017, 11:04:00 PM by Abu Muhammad »

Link

Re: Abu bakr or ali first
« Reply #5 on: August 24, 2017, 11:23:54 PM »
Wisdom is to put everything in its proper place.

The Quran advises all of the humans to become religious pious sages/scholars by which of they teach of the book and by what they study.

Yet it tells them for their unity, to hold on to the rope of God and talks about how that nation of children of Israel and the people of the book were all met with disgrace except (saved from that) by a rope from God and rope from people.

I don't know most of the Quran. I know very little. I and everyone, even a child, is allowed to express their reflections they derive from the book as well as ahadith.

What I meant is, the high noble interpretation which includes the whole Sunnah and includes secrets we are not aware of, is by Ahlulbayt.

We are subject to falsehood except what God has mercy on us, we choose falsehood over truth, except by God's mercy.

God's mercy extends to all of us, so if we take that help and listen to reason which calls us to God, then the falsehood begins to loose its foundations and its deceptions begin to be broken.

I purposely calculated those words knowing one of you guys surely would react that way.


We are all to work together to understand Quran, but the ones fit to explain it, is Ahlulbayt. We are not fit to explain THE Quran but rather we are to teach OF The book what we recognize and understand, and have deeply reflected about and verified in the ahadith of the family of the reminder and come to understand through the family of the reminder coupled with divine help in the unseen from God.

This is emphasized on by the words of Prophet "Do not teach them for they know more than you", meaning don't go to their hadiths to reject what goes against your understanding and affirm only what you desire, rather, acknowledge you don't know much of the Quran and Ahlulbayt are the means to hold on to the Quran and the Quran is also the means to hold on to Ahlulbayt.

Try your best to see their words in Quran and proven by Quran, try to gain insight from God, download insights and light from the leader and guide of time, and reflect constantly because some doors of knowledge are downloaded fast while other downloads take a long reflection.

Try to see what they say in Quran and try to reject what is attributed to them but is false through Quran.

This is an effort all believers must try to do, and we are to "refer to God and the Messenger" (Quran and Sunnah) for our disputes, and not settle to agree to disagree.

There is a saying from one of the Imams "the people were a cure and now they have become a disease". This is such with the Quran. There is many levels.

My vision of it maybe a cure for some, but its low understanding and remaining on that knowledge, becomes a disease and veil for others if they choose to remain in this level.

Ahlulbayt are the way to constantly increase in vision of Quran and to constantly replace one level of knowledge with a much higher.

Their words are calculated to encompass many levels of understanding at the same time just like the Quran.

We are to go to them thirsty. I who mix million doors of falsehood with a door of truth am not fit to explain the Quran, but I hope God helps me when I do speak of the Quran, I speak only what I know of it and I ask God's help in that regard.







Love of the family of Yaseen is the light of the heavens and the earth.

 

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