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Ali's Opression

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Husayn

Ali's Opression
« on: September 04, 2014, 04:51:06 AM »
Assalamu Alaikum,

One of the main themes of Rafidism is the "oppression of Ahlul Bayt". Ali (RA), according to the Rafida, was oppressed after the Prophet (SAWS) died. He was denied his rightful Khilafa, his wife was beaten up, his wife's inheritance was stolen (Fadak) - amongst other things.

The Rafida go to great lengths to bewail, mourn and eulogise this severe oppression.

The Rafida also pride themselves on being a people of "logic". They berate the Ash'aris and their literalism, their backwardness, and take pride in their use of 'Aql and Ijtihad in interpreting the Qur'an and Ahadith.

So, I ask the Rafida to "logically" interpret the following facts about 'Ali (RA), and to reconcile them with their belief in his oppression:

- Ali (RA) married 8 women.

http://mezan.net/maw...i/zawjateh.html

- Ali (RA) had 28 children.

http://mezan.net/maw...li/awladeh.html

Taking the above facts into account:

- Logically - does a man who marries 8 times and has 28 children sound like he lived in oppression?

- Can a poor and oppressed man marry and maintain 8 women? - even if you don't marry them at the same time

- Can a poor and oppressed man maintain and support 28 children? - let's assume most of them make it to adulthood

- Where did 'Ali get the money for this? Was he a known as a rich man?

- So where did he get this money?
إن يتبعون إلا الظن وما تهوى الأنفس

Ebn Hussein

Re: Ali's Opression
« Reply #1 on: September 04, 2014, 07:22:26 AM »
Mashaallah, well written bro. Akhi Hussein, as a Lebanese Ex-Shia who has debated Sunnis for over a decade, can you please open a thread and explain why you left Shiism?
الإمام الشافعي رحمه الله
لم أر أحداً من أهل الأهواء أشهد بالزور من الرافضة! - الخطيب في الكفاية والسوطي.

Imam Al-Shafi3i - may Allah have mercy upon him - said: "I have not seen among the heretics a people more famous for falsehood than the Rafidah." [narrated by Al-Khatib Al-Baghdadi/Al-Kifayah]

HughSlaman

Re: Ali's Opression
« Reply #2 on: September 04, 2014, 10:58:53 AM »
This was a nice post.
Just to add, the people present in Madina at the time unanimously acclaimed Sayyiduna Ali, Allah be pleased with him, as caliph. Do people usually pick a poor, oppressed person to be their ruler? Usually, when people want a leader, they gravitate to someone who is already prominent, of high rank in his community, and well-known for competence and for having resources; and Allah knows best!

Husayn

Re: Ali's Opression
« Reply #3 on: September 04, 2014, 01:28:09 PM »
Mashaallah, well written bro. Akhi Hussein, as a Lebanese Ex-Shia who has debated Sunnis for over a decade, can you please open a thread and explain why you left Shiism?

Insha' Allah

I am still debating about the best way to do this, there is simply too much that I want to write.
إن يتبعون إلا الظن وما تهوى الأنفس

Hani

Re: Ali's Opression
« Reply #4 on: September 04, 2014, 01:59:18 PM »
I had a thread about the Will of `Ali ibn abi Talib from Sunni and Shia books, I just want you all to look at how much property he had.


We also have a brother who is writing a book of biographies regarding all the descendants of `Ali and their condition and status and wealth and so on... InshaAllah it comes out soon I need it badly.



It's Sahih in both Sunni and Shia books.


read the Will and tell me how "oppressed" do you think `Ali may Allah be pleased with him was:


[“Abu al-Hassan, ‘Alayhi al-Salam, sent to me the will of ’Amir al-Mu’minin, ‘Alayhi al-Salam, which
reads as follows:
‘(I begin) in the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful.
‘This is the will and decision of the servant of Allah about his assets seeking thereby the pleasure of
Allah so that He will admit him in the garden (paradise), keep away from him the fire and keep him
away from the fire on the day when certain faces will be white and others will be black. The assets that
belong to me in Yanba’ which are known to be my assets with its surroundings are endowed as
charities as well as the slaves except Rabah, abu Nayzar and Jubayr who are set free and no one has
any authority over them. They are my Mawali who will work for five years with the properties from
which will be their sustenance, expenses and the expenses of their families. Besides these my
properties in Wadi al-Qura’, all of it is of the assets of the children of Fatimah, ‘Alayha al-Salam, and
the slaves are charities. My assets in Daymah and its people are charities except Zurayq. For him is
what I write for his companions. My assets in ’Udhaynah and its people are charities and al-Fuqayrayn
as you know are charities in the way of Allah. My assets that I have mentioned are charities in an
obligatory sense, whether I will be living or dead. They will be used in the ways that will please Allah,
for the cause of Allah, and for the sake of Allah, and for my relatives from banu Hashim, banu al-
Muttalib, the nearer ones and the farther ones. Al-Hassan will supervise these properties. He will use
them for his lawful needs and will spend in the sight of Allah, most Majestic, most Glorious, in lawful
ways. It is not unlawful for him to do so. If he deems necessary to sell from these assets to pay off
debts, he can do so if he will so like. It is not unlawful for him. If he will like he can make them very
attractive assets. The children of Ali, their Mawali and assets are under the authority of al-Hassan ibn
Ali. If the house of al-Hassan ibn Ali will not be the house of charity and if he will so decide to sell it
he can do so. It is not unlawful for him. If he will sell it, he will divide its price in three parts: onethird
in the way of Allah, one-third for banu Hashim and banu al-Muttalib, and keep one-third in the
assets of Ale abu Talib. He will manage it in the sight of Allah as he deems it lawful. If something
will happen to al-Hassan and al-Husayn will be living, then al-Husayn ibn Ali will be the person in
charge of his task. Al-Husayn will deal with these assets just as al-Hassan had been dealing. He will
have for himself what I have written for al-Hassan. On him will also be what was on al-Hassan. For
the children of (the two sons of) Fatimah, ‘Alayha al-Salam, of the charities are whatever is for the
children of Ali. I have prepared what I have prepared for the two sons of Fatimah, ‘Alayhi al-Salam. It
is for the sake of Allah, most Majestic, most Glorious, in the honor of the Messenger of Allah, O
Allah, grant compensation to Muhammad and his family worthy of their services to Your cause, and
for their greatness, in service of their nobility and pleasure. If something will happen to al-Hassan and
al-Husayn, the last one of them will look among the children of Ali. If he will find among them one
about whose guidance he is happy as well as his Islam and trustworthiness, he will designate him for
the task if he will so wish. If he will not find among them anyone who can make him happy, he will
designate someone from Ale abu Talib with whom he will be happy. If he will find all of Ale abu
Talib, their elders and people of understanding have passed away, he then will designate a man from
banu Hashim. He will place a condition on one to whom he will leave the assets that they must be left
on their original basis, only their fruits will be spent as I have commanded, such as, in the way of
Allah and for His sake, for the relatives of banu Hashim and banu al-Muttalib, those nearer and those
farther. They must not be sold, gifted or inherited. The assets of Muhammad ibn Ali are on his side. It
is for the two sons of Fatimah, ‘Alayha al-Salam, to decide about it. My slaves whom I have listed in a
small document are free.
‘This is what Ali ibn abu Talib has decided about his assets this morning of the day that he has arrived
in Maskin (a place near al-Kufah on the bank of Euphrates) for the sake of Allah, seeking His
pleasure, and for the dwelling in the next life. Allah is the support in all conditions. It is not lawful for
a Muslim, who believes in Allah and the day to come, to say something about what I have decided
about my assets or oppose me in my affairs of the people near or far.
Thereafter the mothers of my children with whom I maintain connections, seventeen of whom are
mothers of children who are with their children, those of them who are pregnant and those who do not
have children. My decision about them, if something happens to me is as follows: Those of them who
do not have children and are not pregnant they are free for the sake of Allah, most Majestic, most
Glorious. No one will have any authority over them. Those of them who have children or are pregnant
must keep their children as their share. If her child will die and she is living she then is free and no
one will have any authority on them. This is the decision that Ali has made about his assets this
morning when he has arrived in Maskin. It is witnessed by abu Samar ibn Abrahah, Sa‘sa‘h ibn Suhan,
Yazid ibn Qays and Hayyaj ibn abu Hayyaj and it is written by Ali ibn abu Talib with his own hand on
tenth of Jamadi al-’Ula’, in the year thirty-seven.’”]


Source: al-Kafi vol.7 (notice he never mentioned Imamah hehe..)

So on top of the eight wives he had, he also had many servants, and from them are females, and seventeen of these females became mothers of children (meaning he had a relation with them which is lawful for him).


Now go to this piece I wrote here and look at what our Prophet (saw) left behind to learn his greatness:
http://twelvershia.net/2014/05/08/prophetic-inheritance-qa/



In Musnad Ahmad from Ibn `Uyaynah in a Sahih Hadith:


حَدَّثَنَا سُفْيَانُ، حَدَّثَنَا عَبْدُ الْعَزِيزِ بْنُ رُفَيْعٍ، قَالَ: دَخَلْتُ أَنَا وَشَدَّادُ بْنُ مَعْقِلٍ عَلَى ابْنِ عَبَّاسٍ، فَقَالَ ابْنُ عَبَّاسٍ: ” مَا تَرَكَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ إِلَّا مَا بَيْنَ هَذَيْنِ اللَّوْحَيْنِ، وَدَخَلْنَا عَلَى مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ عَلِيٍّ، فَقَالَ: مِثْلَ ذَلِكَ


[`Abdul-`Aziz told us, I entered alongside Shaddad on ibn `Abbas, so he told us: “The messenger (saw) of Allah never left behind anything other than what is between the two covers (Qur’an).” Then we entered on Muhammad ibn `Ali bin abi Talib and he said the same.]



In Tabaqat ibn Sa`d with an authentic chain we read:


أَخْبَرَنَا عَفَّانُ بْنُ مُسْلِمٍ، قَالَ: أَخْبَرَنَا ثَابِتٌ أَبُو زَيْدٍ، قَالَ: أَخْبَرَنَا هِلالُ بْنُ خَبَّابٍ، عَنْ عِكْرِمَةَ، عَنِ ابْنِ عَبَّاسٍ، قَالَ: ” مَاتَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ وَمَا تَرَكَ دِينَارًا، وَلا دِرْهَمًا، وَلا عَبْدًا، وَلا أَمَةً، وَلا وَلِيدَةً، وَتَرَكَ دِرْعَهُ رَهْنًا عِنْدَ يَهُوَدِيٍّ بِثَلاثِينَ صَاعًا مِنْ شَعِير


[Narrated `Abdullah ibn `Abbas: (The cousin of Allah’s Apostle) Allah’s Apostle (saw) passed away not leaving a Dinar or Dirham, nor a slave man or woman, he left his armor as mortgage with a Jew for thirty Sa` of barely seeds.]



In Tabaqat ibn Sa`d also with an authentic chain:


أَخْبَرَنَا الْفَضْلُ بْنُ دُكَيْنٍ، وَمُحَمَّدُ بْنُ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ الأَسَدِيُّ، قَالا: أَخْبَرَنَا مِسْعَرٌ، عَنْ عَدِيِّ بْنِ ثَابِتٍ، عَنْ عَلِيِّ بْنِ الْحُسَيْنِ، قَالَ: تُوُفِّيَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ وَلَمْ يَدَعْ دِينَارًا، وَلا دِرْهَمًا، وَلا عَبْدًا، وَلا أَمَةً


[Narrated `Ali bin al-Husayn: (The prophet’s great grandson) Allah’s Apostle (saw) passed away not leaving a Dinar or Dirham, nor a slave or slave woman.]

Finally, regarding whether `Ali (ra) was rich or not, the texts reached us that in the time of `Umar (ra) banu Hashim as a whole were VERY RICH, `Umar (ra) gave them so much lands and gifts and Khums that `Ali (ra) told `Umar (ra) to spend their shares on charity as they have enough.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2014, 02:10:13 PM by Hani »
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Farid

Re: Ali's Opression
« Reply #5 on: September 05, 2014, 03:26:28 PM »
@ Husayn: When Shias say that Al-Jawad lived a life of oppression, I argue: He was married to the daughter of the caliph of Bani Abbas. The only way it could be oppression is if she was grotesquely ugly. ;p

lotfilms

Re: Ali's Opression
« Reply #6 on: September 07, 2014, 12:17:40 AM »
Masha'Allah Imam 'Ali(as) was soooooooo awesome  8)
اللهم صل على محمد وآل محمد

lol Farid how does that mean that al-Jawad(as) lived a life of ease?  If anything, being married to the daughter of the leader of a country puts you under a lot of pressure because God help you if you annoy or anger her

Hadrami

Re: Ali's Opression
« Reply #7 on: September 07, 2014, 06:35:32 AM »
I think what farid meant was that he was the inner circle of the khalifa of the time. He was not an outcast, isolated as the shia would want us to believe

Farid

Re: Ali's Opression
« Reply #8 on: September 07, 2014, 10:05:21 AM »
^ I believe brother lotfilms is kidding. ;p

 

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