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Sunni Shia Discussion Forum => General Sunni-Shia => Topic started by: Hani on January 13, 2015, 10:23:29 PM

Title: Ameen come discuss a topic of your choice
Post by: Hani on January 13, 2015, 10:23:29 PM
Salam `Aleykum,


Let's start a fun little topic here, I will help Imami member Ameen by opening this thread just for him, pick any topic you want and I will discuss it with you or even debate you on it if you wish.
Title: Re: Ameen come discuss a topic of your choice
Post by: Ameen on January 14, 2015, 04:59:36 PM
Ok. Once again. Lest start off with a simple and brief introduction. Which school of faith do you belong to?? Hanfi, Maliki, Shafi or Hambali?? Which political movement do you belong to?? Wahabi, Salafi, Deobandi, Barelvi or Ahle Hadees??

Just want to get to know you, so I have a clear understanding about who I am up against and dealing with. I hope you have the strength and courage to go ahead with this rather than deleting this straight forward introduction again. Lets see!
Title: Re: Ameen come discuss a topic of your choice
Post by: Hani on January 14, 2015, 05:14:24 PM
Hello my name is Hani, I am in my 20s, Born Lebanese, I started out as Shafi`i making Taqleed of my brother, now I'm a "whateveri" because I look things up myself and reach my own conclusions, I do not belong to any "movements" or sects.


How about you?
Title: Re: Ameen come discuss a topic of your choice
Post by: Hani on January 15, 2015, 11:23:44 AM
Bumped for Ameen.


Did you decide what you want to discuss/debate?
Title: Re: Ameen come discuss a topic of your choice
Post by: Ameen on January 16, 2015, 01:36:11 PM
Bumped for Ameen.


Did you decide what you want to discuss/debate?

Thank you very much for the introduction. That wasn't too dificult, was it??? Certain brothers just go all pale in the name of introduction.

Anyways Shiaism has been accused as the religion of Kufr and Shirk. Can some explain this. How???



Title: Re: Ameen come discuss a topic of your choice
Post by: Hani on January 17, 2015, 03:40:27 PM
Bumped for Ameen.


Did you decide what you want to discuss/debate?

Thank you very much for the introduction. That wasn't too dificult, was it??? Certain brothers just go all pale in the name of introduction.

Anyways Shiaism has been accused as the religion of Kufr and Shirk. Can some explain this. How???





Do you have no idea? Why would anyone think this?

You've been engaged in Sunni/Shia discussions for a while now have you not?

What would you think Ahlul-Sunnah, or some of them, would consider as "Kufr" and what would they consider as "Shirk"?

I'd like to hear your guesses then I'll give you two examples myself of what would Ahlul-Sunnah consider Kufr/Shirk.
Title: Re: Ameen come discuss a topic of your choice
Post by: Ameen on January 17, 2015, 06:26:16 PM
Brother Hani, why do you want me guessing??? We're not playing a game, are we??? Anyways, lets take this discussion forward. Kufr has to do with Nabuwath and Shirk has to do with Tauheed. If you reject Nabuwath, any part of Nabuwath or the status of any Messenger then, this would result in Kufr.If you worship anyone, anything apart from Allah or associate anything or anyone to Allah then, this would result in Shirk.

Now not to believe in the status of any companion or having doubts about their faith and belief, or categorising their status and position or cursing any companion or even humiliating, insulting, slandering, swearing or what ever else you would like to add in, how and in what way is this Takfeer???

Title: Re: Ameen come discuss a topic of your choice
Post by: Hani on January 17, 2015, 08:35:01 PM
Brother Hani, why do you want me guessing??? We're not playing a game, are we??? Anyways, lets take this discussion forward. Kufr has to do with Nabuwath and Shirk has to do with Tauheed. If you reject Nabuwath, any part of Nabuwath or the status of any Messenger then, this would result in Kufr.If you worship anyone, anything apart from Allah or associate anything or anyone to Allah then, this would result in Shirk.

Now not to believe in the status of any companion or having doubts about their faith and belief, or categorising their status and position or cursing any companion or even humiliating, insulting, slandering, swearing or what ever else you would like to add in, how and in what way is this Takfeer???



Salam,

Okay, since you don't want to contribute your thoughts, I'll give you two examples InshaAllah at the end of this post.

Now before we begin, I'd like to clarify that I (as well as you) are not qualified to discuss topics as we've never researched them or read related books.

Regarding Kufr, there are popular books which speak on the boundaries and laws of Kufr, who is a Kafir and who is qualified to make a declaration of Takfeer.

Now you stated that Shirk has to do with Tawheed, this is true. Then you said that Kufr has to do with Nubuwwah, I say everything has to do with Nubuwwah even Tawheed, because if you do not believe in Muhammad (saw) then you don't believe in the Qur'an and the Tawheed.

Regarding Kufr:

You said that insulting the companions or making Takfeer on them does not constitute Kufr. I say it can indeed constitute Kufr.

How?

Well if you believe for example that Sahih al-Bukhari is a book containing sayings correctly attributed to the Prophet (saw), and in Sahih Bukhari the Prophet (saw) says: "Abu Bakr is from the dwellers of heaven."

Then you accuse Abu Bakr that he is an evil apostate because of his ruling on Fadak, that means you rejected the Prophet's (saw) words and promise making you a Kafir.

Similarly, if you believe that whatever Ja`far says in al-Kafi is attributed to the Prophet (saw), and Ja`far says: "`Ammar is a believer who will enter heaven." Then you disagree saying, "No he's in hell because he obeyed `Umar and worked for him."

This makes you a Kafir because you rejected what is correctly attributed to the Prophet (saw) in al-Kafi.

Now you ask, well you're a mainstream Muslim and according to your texts Abu Bakr is in heaven, but me as a Shi`ee I don't believe in your books and in my books he's an evil apostate, how does that make your view of me? Am I a Kafir?

I personally believe in this case, that you are committing acts of Kufr but are not a Kafir. Meaning, you are sinful and will be punished but you're not a Kafir as you don't believe in my books in the first place. Thus, a deviant Muslim is what you become, you have the rights that any Muslim has.

Is Kufr limited to Nubuwwah? The major Kufr is known but there is minor Kufr, or as we said an act of Kufr that does not render its doer as a non-Muslim.

For instance, the Prophet (saw) said: "Whoever insults one's lineage or wails on the dead has committed Kufr."
He (saw) also said: "Whoever seeks a fortune teller has done (an act of) Kufr."

Similarly, we find that there is Shirk Akbar and Shirk Asghar, a man who believes that `Ali is God on earth has done Shirk Akbar such as the Sabaa'iyyah and the Nusayriyyah and other Shia sects. He becomes a disbeliever by doing so.

As for committing an act of shirk, it can be like this Hadith where he (saw) says: "Whoever gives an oath/promise by other than Allah, he has made Shirk."

This can include Shia in our days who say: "By `Ali, I did not do this" or "By the Wilayah of Sahib-ul-Zaman I love you."

This is an act of Shirk, doesn't make the doer a polytheist or non-Muslim, but is still sinful and he will be punished if Allah wills.

Finally, you want to see examples of why some Muslims may attribute Kufr/Shirk to Imamiyyah, I will give these two examples, starting with an example of Kufr:

عن الحسن بن الحسين بن بابويه ، عن عمه محمد بن الحسن ، عن أبيه الحسن بن الحسين ، عن عمه أبي جعفر بن بابويه ، عن القطان ، عن ابن زكريا عن ابن حبيب ، عن ابن بهلول ، عن أبيه ، عن أبي الحسن العبدي ، عن سليمان ابن مهران ، عن عباية بن ربعي قال : قلت لعبد الله بن العباس : لم كنى رسول الله صلى‌الله‌عليه‌وآله عليا عليه‌السلام أبا تراب؟ قال : لانه صاحب الارض ، وحجة الله على أهلها بعده ، وبه بقاؤها ، وإليه سكونها ، ولقد سمعت رسول الله صلى‌الله‌عليه‌وآله يقول : إنه إذا كان يوم القيامة ورأى الكافر ما أعد الله تعالى لشيعة علي من الثواب والزلفى والكرامة ، قال : « يا ليتني كنت ترابا » أي يا ليتني كنت من شيعة علي وذلك قول الله عزوجل : « ويقول الكافر يا ليتني كنت ترابا »

[From al-Hasan bin al-Husayn bin Babawayh, from his uncle Muhammad bin al-Hasan, from his father al-Hasan bin al-Husayn, from his uncle abu Ja`far bin Babawayh, from al-Qattan, from ibn Zakariya, from ibn Habib, from ibn Bahlul, from his father, from abu al-Hasan al-`Abdi, from Sulayman bin Mihran, from `Abayah bin Rib`i, I said to ibn `Abbas: Why did the Prophet (saw) call `Ali as abu Turab(father of sand)? He said: "Because he is the owner of the earth, and the proof of God upon its inhabitants, and through him it remains (in existence), and because of him it remains stable (doesn't fall apart) etc...]

Source: Bihar al-Anwar 35/51.

And this isn't stuff Shia don't believe in, Sistani's official research center presented this narration as an answer to a questioner who asked "Why was `Ali called abu Turab?":

http://www.aqaed.com/faq/4720/

When we know that the earth belongs to Allah and he sustains everything and preserves everything with his power, not `Ali:

{Allah - there is no deity except Him, the Ever-Living, the Sustainer of [all] existence. Neither drowsiness overtakes Him nor sleep. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth.} [2:255]

{Do you not see that Allah has subjected to you whatever is on the earth and the ships which run through the sea by His command? And He restrains the sky from falling upon the earth, unless by His permission. Indeed Allah, to the people, is Kind and Merciful.} [22:65]


Then an example of Shirk:

عن أحمد بن أبي جعفر البيهقي ، عن علي بن جعفر المدني ، عن علي بن محمد بن مهرويه القزويني ، عن داود بن سليمان ، عن الرضا ، عن آبائه عليهم‌السلام قال : قال رسول الله صلى‌الله‌عليه‌وآله : إذا كان يوم القيامة ولينا حساب شيعتنا فمن كانت مظلمته فيما بينه وبين الله عزوجل حكمنا فيها فأجابنا ، ومن كانت مظلمته فيما بينه وبين الناس استوهبناها فوهبت لنا ، ومن كانت مظلمته فيما بينه وبيننا كنا أحق من عفا وصفح

[From Ahmad bin abi Ja`far al-Bayhaqi, from `Ali bin Ja`far al-Madani, from `Ali bin Muhammad bin Mahrawayh al-Qazwini, from Dawud bin Sulayman, from al-Rida (as), from his fathers (as), the Prophet (saw) said: "On the day of judgement we will be in charge of judging our Shia, whichever of them has an issue with Allah then we will judge it and He will accept (our judgement), whichever of them has an issue with the people then we will take care of it for him, and whichever of them has an issue with us then we are the most worthy of offering forgiveness."]

Source: `Uyoun Akhbar al-Rida 2/57.

Now we all know that on the day of judgement Allah is the judge, and associating the Imams with Allah in judgement on the day of judgement is Shirk.

Allah says:

{But Allah will judge between them on the Day of Resurrection concerning that over which they used to differ.} [2:113]

{And indeed, your Lord will judge between them on the Day of Resurrection concerning that over which they used to differ.} [16:124]

So the above is just examples of typical Shia narrations that conflict with Qur'an and Sunnah according to Ahlul-Sunnah, thus the accusations against Shia of Kufr/Shirk.

Title: Re: Ameen come discuss a topic of your choice
Post by: Furkan on January 17, 2015, 09:18:11 PM
Sorry for bothering but something got my attention. What kind of shirk are those 2 shiite narrations you presented?
Title: Re: Ameen come discuss a topic of your choice
Post by: Optimus Prime on January 17, 2015, 09:51:50 PM
Hani, do you believe a Shia who attributes the signs or qualities of Allah to their Imams are out of the fold of Islam?
Title: Re: Ameen come discuss a topic of your choice
Post by: Ameen on January 18, 2015, 11:26:25 PM
Ok brother, you said,

"I say everything has to do with Nubuwwah even Tawheed, because if you do not believe in Muhammad (saw) then you don't believe in the Qur'an and the Tawheed",

Those people who believe in the Messengers and scriptures before the Quran but don't believe in the Quran and the last Messenger (pbuh) are known as people of book/s  (Ahle Kithab). These people are know as Kafir. Allah said to the Angels,

" Bow to Adam, and they bowed apart from Iblees", what did Iblees do??? "He became stubborn, and became arrogant", what happened next??? "And he became amongst the kafirs", (Wa kana minal kafireen).

So tell me, what has this got to do with Tauheed??? Everything doesn't have to do with Tauheed. If you don't believe in Muhammad (pbuh) and the Quran but you do believe in the previous scripture/s and Messenger/s then, what has this got to do with Tauheed???

Before Muhammad (pbuh) introduced himself as a Messenger, Tauheed did exist and people did believe in the oneness of Allah. Islam did exist from day one and it was around before the introduction of the last messenger and revelation. So my dear brother, I disagree. Tauheed and Nabuwath are two separate things.

You said,

"You said that insulting the companions or making Takfeer on them does not constitute Kufr. I say it can indeed constitute Kufr",

Further on you mention,

"Well if you believe for example that Sahih al-Bukhari is a book containing sayings correctly attributed to the Prophet (saw), and in Sahih Bukhari the Prophet (saw) says: "Abu Bakr is from the dwellers of heaven."

Then you accuse Abu Bakr that he is an evil apostate because of his ruling on Fadak, that means you rejected the Prophet's (saw) words and promise making you a Kafir.

Similarly, if you believe that whatever Ja`far says in al-Kafi is attributed to the Prophet (saw), and Ja`far says: "`Ammar is a believer who will enter heaven." Then you disagree saying, "No he's in hell because he obeyed `Umar and worked for him."

This makes you a Kafir because you rejected what is correctly attributed to the Prophet (saw) in al-Kafi",

Brother the narrations in Bukhari, Al Kafi or any other book are there to justify your claim to a certain extent. But we are all aware and except that the Sunnah has been tampered with. A lot of hadiths are falsely attributed to the Prophet (pbuh) and we all categorise hadiths/narrations as strong and weak. Some are even rejected and certain are accepted by some and rejected by others, which you have mentioned.

One can easily dispute/refute on whether the Prophet (pbuh) had said this or not. There is no room for dispute or refute when it comes to Shirk and Kufr. Brother, your case is weak.

You said,

"Now you ask, well you're a mainstream Muslim and according to your texts Abu Bakr is in heaven, but me as a Shi`ee I don't believe in your books and in my books he's an evil apostate, how does that make your view of me? Am I a Kafir?

I personally believe in this case, that you are committing acts of Kufr but are not a Kafir. Meaning, you are sinful and will be punished but you're not a Kafir as you don't believe in my books in the first place. Thus, a deviant Muslim is what you become, you have the rights that any Muslim has",

Brother, what on earth are you talking about??? "You are committing acts of Kufr but are not a Kafir", what does this suppose to mean??? Brother your personal belief has got nothing to do with Shariath. You said, "I personally believe", Shariath is what Allah and his Messenger (pbuh) believe, not what you and I think.

Like I said before that who is a Mushrik or Kafir, according to Allah and his Messenger (pbuh) is one thing but according to us is another. Your case is based on your personal views and what you think. Your case is not based on Shariath.

You further on say,

"Is Kufr limited to Nubuwwah? The major Kufr is known but there is minor Kufr, or as we said an act of Kufr that does not render its doer as a non-Muslim",

Brother Kufr is Kufr. There is no such thing as major and minor Kufr. If there is then please back your case with references from the Quran, since narrations/hadiths are strong and weak, acceptable and reject able.

You said,

"For instance, the Prophet (saw) said: "Whoever insults one's lineage or wails on the dead has committed Kufr."
He (saw) also said: "Whoever seeks a fortune teller has done (an act of) Kufr",

Again you haven't given me anything direct from the Quran but you have put forward material which is disputable and refutable.

You further on say,

"Similarly, we find that there is Shirk Akbar and Shirk Asghar, a man who believes that `Ali is God on earth has done Shirk Akbar such as the Sabaa'iyyah and the Nusayriyyah and other Shia sects. He becomes a disbeliever by doing so",

Again you speak about categorising shirk as Akbar and Asghar. If you can give me references from the Quran for this then, that would be nice.

You said,

"This can include Shia in our days who say: "By `Ali, I did not do this" or "By the Wilayah of Sahib-ul-Zaman I love you. This is an act of Shirk, doesn't make the doer a polytheist or non-Muslim, but is still sinful and he will be punished if Allah wills",

Again brother this is you personal opinion and you have a right to it. People do say that " I swear on my mothers life" or "I want you to do this, please, for my sake". There is no harm in holding others dear to you in your life. I'm sure you hold many people and things dear in your life but that doesn't mean you are comparing them to Allah.

You said,

"Now we all know that on the day of judgement Allah is the judge, and associating the Imams with Allah in judgement on the day of judgement is Shirk.

Allah says:

{But Allah will judge between them on the Day of Resurrection concerning that over which they used to differ.} [2:113]

{And indeed, your Lord will judge between them on the Day of Resurrection concerning that over which they used to differ.} [16:124]

So the above is just examples of typical Shia narrations that conflict with Qur'an and Sunnah according to Ahlul-Sunnah, thus the accusations against Shia of Kufr/Shirk",

I will give you a detailed response for this.

Title: Re: Ameen come discuss a topic of your choice
Post by: Furkan on January 18, 2015, 11:34:20 PM
I feel sorry for Brother Hani :p
Title: Re: Ameen come discuss a topic of your choice
Post by: Hani on January 19, 2015, 11:29:07 AM
@Ameen,


Quote
Tauheed and Nabuwath are two separate things.



Regarding what you said about Tawheed being available before Muhammad (saw), this isn't what we're talking about, we're talking about Islam only not previous religions and creeds. In Islam it was the Prophet (saw) who taught people how to do Tawheed.


Previous prophets also taught their people Tawheed, meaning in one way or another everything is tied to Nubuwwah.


Quote
Brother the narrations in Bukhari, Al Kafi or any other book are there to justify your claim to a certain extent. But we are all aware and except that the Sunnah has been tampered with. A lot of hadiths are falsely attributed to the Prophet (pbuh) and we all categorise hadiths/narrations as strong and weak. Some are even rejected and certain are accepted by some and rejected by others, which you have mentioned.


One can easily dispute/refute on whether the Prophet (pbuh) had said this or not. There is no room for dispute or refute when it comes to Shirk and Kufr. Brother, your case is weak.


You didn't get it. I said if you consider the content of a Hadith to be the words of the Prophet (saw), then you reject them, then you're a Kafir.


Is that odd?


Besides no two scholars disagrees on the authenticity of the narrations which promise Abu Bakr heaven, they're Mutawatir, so there is consensus in the Ummah.



Quote
Brother, what on earth are you talking about??? "You are committing acts of Kufr but are not a Kafir", what does this suppose to mean??? Brother your personal belief has got nothing to do with Shariath. You said, "I personally believe", Shariath is what Allah and his Messenger (pbuh) believe, not what you and I think.


You want to discuss with me but you don't want my opinion? Strange.


It's not my opinion anyway, research "Kufr Doun al-Kufr." Even Imamiyyah have this concept and call it "Kufr Muqabil al-Iman" and "Kufr Muqabil al-Islam".


Meaning one act of Kufr can take you out of the folds of Islam altogether but another will not.


For example: Giant Shia scholar Muhammad Baqir al-Waheed al-Bahbahani says:


[The Mukhalif(Sunni) who has denied an Asl or two from the Usool al-Deen - and they are Imamah and `Adl(justice) (...) is a Kafir without a doubt, his Kufr is Muqabil al-Iman, even if it wasn't Kufr Muqabil al-Islam yet it is mentioned in the narrations that he is worse than the Jews and Christians and other than them]


source: Footnotes of "Majma` al-Fa'idah wal-Burhan" pg32.


Quote
You said,


"For instance, the Prophet (saw) said: "Whoever insults one's lineage or wails on the dead has committed Kufr."
He (saw) also said: "Whoever seeks a fortune teller has done (an act of) Kufr",


Again you haven't given me anything direct from the Quran but you have put forward material which is disputable and refutable.


...Again you speak about categorising shirk as Akbar and Asghar. If you can give me references from the Quran for this then, that would be nice.


These are my beliefs from my books, no one said that we can only quote the Qur'an, where'd you get this from?



Quote
Again brother this is you personal opinion and you have a right to it. People do say that " I swear on my mothers life" or "I want you to do this, please, for my sake". There is no harm in holding others dear to you in your life. I'm sure you hold many people and things dear in your life but that doesn't mean you are comparing them to Allah.


"for my sake" is not Shirk, you're not promising by it. But swearing on your mother's life is Makrouh or forbidden as it was prohibited.


Either-way, if you don't believe in the above, that means Kufr is all equal in your eyes, thus making you and all Shia Kouffar according to Ahlul-Sunnah and making us all Kouffar in your eyes, so end of story.









Title: Re: Ameen come discuss a topic of your choice
Post by: Hani on January 19, 2015, 11:39:16 AM
I still don't understand what we're discussing, Ameen knows I don't make general Takfeer on Shia yet he's discussing Takfeer with me.


And if you're still curious as to why Tashayyu` is accused a religion of Kufr and Shirk, then it's because of the Imami narrations and the sayings of Imami scholars.
Title: Re: Ameen come discuss a topic of your choice
Post by: Furkan on January 19, 2015, 12:02:01 PM
Ameen doesn't ask questions like here, on shiachat. He is just playing around/ still too young or just not knowledgeable.
Title: Re: Ameen come discuss a topic of your choice
Post by: Hani on January 19, 2015, 12:15:24 PM
Look at the Takfeeri ibn Babawayh al-Qummi, he says in the introduction of his book Kamal-ul-Deen:


[I bear witness that (...) whoever forbids what is permissible or permits what is forbidden, and whoever alters a tradition, or drops an obligatory duty, or changes a religious law, or creates an innovation wishing that the people would follow him by doing it, then he has taken himself as a partner of Allah, and whoever follows him has taken another Lord besides Allah, he will incur Allah's wrath and abide in the fire, his (good) deeds will be discarded and he becomes from the losers. And peace be upon Muhammad and his pure family.]


I'm sure according to al-Saduq that Ahlul-Sunnah did at least some if not all of these Hahaha... If following an innovator makes you a Mushrik in his eyes then why blame us?



Title: Re: Ameen come discuss a topic of your choice
Post by: Optimus Prime on January 19, 2015, 01:28:45 PM
Hani, kindly answer my question on the first page, please.

Jazak'Allah.
Title: Re: Ameen come discuss a topic of your choice
Post by: Hani on January 19, 2015, 02:06:39 PM
Hani, kindly answer my question on the first page, please.

Jazak'Allah.

Gimme an example
Title: Re: Ameen come discuss a topic of your choice
Post by: Optimus Prime on January 19, 2015, 04:11:04 PM
Hani, kindly answer my question on the first page, please.

Jazak'Allah.

Gimme an example

Some Shia (according to AntiMajos) says they believe their Imams created man or human beings and control the nature of life. We know Allah (SWT) is in complete and command of his creations not the creation itself.
Title: Re: Ameen come discuss a topic of your choice
Post by: Hani on January 19, 2015, 06:04:17 PM
That's Shirk.
Title: Re: Ameen come discuss a topic of your choice
Post by: Furkan on January 19, 2015, 06:08:55 PM
They say Allah created imams and the imams created us. (With the permission of Allah? )

If shirk
Title: Re: Ameen come discuss a topic of your choice
Post by: Ameen on January 19, 2015, 06:23:29 PM
Brother Hani your thought, opinion and point of view does matter since this is what discussion is all about. But what I meant is that just putting your opinion forward, it doesn't matter if it's me or you, then explaining and justifying it with material that applies to only us is not strong enough to convince the other.

Let me explain, I can turn around and say "well you are committing kufr since the Prophet (pbuh) did appoint a successor" and if I put references forward from the Sunnah (hadiths/narrations) but you say, "it's not good enough for us, we don't except this since it's your opinion. Prove it from the Quran".

This is what I mean. I know you don't believe that Shiaism is a religion of Shirk and kufr. But certain brothers do and they refuse to discuss it. I am only discussing this with you to put certain facts forward. That is all.

Brother certain groups might be out there who call themselves Shia but you need to be clear about them rather than putting every Shia in the same bag. This is propaganda.

Title: Re: Ameen come discuss a topic of your choice
Post by: Hani on January 19, 2015, 07:05:36 PM
Let me explain, I can turn around and say "well you are committing kufr since the Prophet (pbuh) did appoint a successor" and if I put references forward from the Sunnah (hadiths/narrations) but you say, "it's not good enough for us, we don't except this since it's your opinion. Prove it from the Quran".

This is what I mean. I know you don't believe that Shiaism is a religion of Shirk and kufr. But certain brothers do and they refuse to discuss it. I am only discussing this with you to put certain facts forward. That is all.

Brother certain groups might be out there who call themselves Shia but you need to be clear about them rather than putting every Shia in the same bag. This is propaganda.

I never put all Shia in the same bag, I don't say they're all Muslims nor do I say they're all Kouffar.

As for the appointment of `Ali, this is a weak opinion as it is not backed by any authentic narration rather it conflicts with authentic narrations.
Title: Re: Ameen come discuss a topic of your choice
Post by: Hani on January 19, 2015, 07:08:56 PM
They say Allah created imams and the imams created us. (With the permission of Allah? )

If shirk

Me personally I don't believe it's Shirk IF they clarify that it's only by Allah's permission and power. However, it is a malicious innovation and clear deviance as Allah and his Prophet (saw) did not announce such a belief.

Therefore, deviant Muslims.
Title: Re: Ameen come discuss a topic of your choice
Post by: Ebn Hussein on January 19, 2015, 07:19:21 PM
So you don't believe that someone who claims that Ali is a minor God by the PERMISSION of the supreme God, is a Mushrik? Or someone who believes that Allah INCARNETED in Ali's body (by Allah's will!) is a Mushrik? Be careful Akhi, not everything is excused under the pretext of shubuhat, hence the fuquha make tafkir on much less severe believes than the one you mentioned.
Title: Re: Ameen come discuss a topic of your choice
Post by: Ebn Hussein on January 19, 2015, 07:20:22 PM
Hani, kindly answer my question on the first page, please.

Jazak'Allah.

Gimme an example

Some Shia (according to AntiMajos) says they believe their Imams created man or human beings and control the nature of life. We know Allah (SWT) is in complete and command of his creations not the creation itself.

This is not according to "Anti Majos" this is according to their narrations (in Nahj al-Balagha even!!!).
Title: Re: Ameen come discuss a topic of your choice
Post by: Furkan on January 19, 2015, 07:55:39 PM
Well creating is only something that Allah can do right? But someone showed me that Isa (as) created a Bird? Thus if the imams are acxording to those deviants, better, then.they expect that the imams can create much more?

Such deviant belief !!!!!
Title: Re: Ameen come discuss a topic of your choice
Post by: Optimus Prime on January 19, 2015, 08:00:31 PM
They say Allah created imams and the imams created us. (With the permission of Allah? )

If shirk

Me personally I don't believe it's Shirk IF they clarify that it's only by Allah's permission and power. However, it is a malicious innovation and clear deviance as Allah and his Prophet (saw) did not announce such a belief.

Therefore, deviant Muslims.

Interesting.

I'm not sure if they do add a clause and state by the will of Allah. To me it doesn't render the statement any different since Allah has confirmed he alone is control of all his creation without any intermediary.
Title: Re: Ameen come discuss a topic of your choice
Post by: Optimus Prime on January 19, 2015, 08:01:51 PM
Hani, kindly answer my question on the first page, please.

Jazak'Allah.

Gimme an example

Some Shia (according to AntiMajos) says they believe their Imams created man or human beings and control the nature of life. We know Allah (SWT) is in complete and command of his creations not the creation itself.

This is not according to "Anti Majos" this is according to their narrations (in Nahj al-Balagha even!!!).

True, brother. I mentioned AntiMajos to entice his curiosity because he claims we don't back-up our claims. I was intending on throwing him the link if he was wanting to know. :)
Title: Re: Ameen come discuss a topic of your choice
Post by: Furkan on January 19, 2015, 08:20:19 PM
It must be the ghulats who believed in tahreef, to introduce this concept.

Anyways.can someone give his thought on what I said about Isa as and the comparison the shite made.
Title: Re: Ameen come discuss a topic of your choice
Post by: Ebn Hussein on January 19, 2015, 09:12:14 PM
In Arabic this is called قياس باطل or قياس مع الفارق (invalid Qiyas/analogy). And ironically you see the Rawafid often doing Qiyas in matters of Aqidah (due to their baseless beliefs), although Qiyas is forbidden according to their religion! Anyway as for Jesus "creating" then only a Mushrik (like Christians!) would use these MIRACLES to clam that Jesus (or anyone else for that matter) is of divine nature/possesses divine attributes (like creating). Read the verse (translation carefuly):

"And (appoint him) an apostle to the Children of Israel, (with this message): "'I have come to you, with a Sign from your Lord, in that I make for you out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, and breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by Allah's leave ...

A SIGN from Allah (God). All Jesus is doing (as a PROPHET mentioned in the QUR'AN and the Gospel) is to BREATH into a bird made out of clay. It is ALLAH who creates the bird NOT Jesus. The Rafidi belief on the other hand is that Allah created 12 divine beings (Gods) who then THEMSELVES (let's say by the permission of Allah) created EVERYTHING else, yet none of this nonsense has been mentioned in the Qur'an (but the miracle of an apparently inferior Prophet has been CLEARLY mentioned in the Qur'an!!!) nor has this anything to do with what Jesus (AS) did.

Surely those on whom you call upon instead of Allah cannot create even a fly, though they should all combine together for the purpose. And if the fly should snatch away anything from them, they cannot recover it therefrom. Weak, indeed, are both the seeker and the sought. (22:74)

Only Mushrik like Rafidah believe that the Quraysh Mushriks used to worship some stones and wood. The truth is that they used to worship not just random idols, but also ANGELS and PROPHETS such as Jesus. Jesus never created anything nor was he responsible for the creation of anything that exists, he performed a miracle, whereas the Rafidah deities are CREATORS of EVERYTHING *BUT* Allah, this is what their shirki books state and their brainless followers repeat:

(http://forum.twelvershia.net/general-sunni-vs-shia/ameen-come-discuss-a-topic-of-your-choice/?action=dlattach;attach=367)

They are without a shred of doubt Mushriks, they affirm multiple God's in their most authentic du'as:

عن أبي عبد الله قال عند الإصابة بالوجع "قل وأنت ساجد: يا الله يا رحمن يا رحيم: يا رب الأرباب وإله الآلهة" الكفي 2ج ص412 بابا الدعاء للعلل والأمراض
 
Their God is an unity, kind of like the trinity only with 14, it would be a triskaidecanity.
 
And therefore asking Allah or the Imams is the same thing. In the name of Allah or in the name of Imams is the same thing. This is why we find in your books.

 وعن أبي جعفر قال: واذا اشتكى الانسان فليقل: بسم الله وبالله وبمحمد رسول الله"الكافي 2/412
 
(in the name of Muhammad ...)

And this is why they can seek refuge in the Prophet (and Ali, and and and(
 
وعن أبي جعفر قال: واذا اشتكى الانسان فليقل: بسم الله وبالله وبمحمد رسول الله"(الكافي 2/412 باب الدعاء للعلل والأمراض
 
By Allah the monotheism in the trinity is greater then what we find in the Deen of the Rafidis and no 'bi2ithnillah' excuse will make these Mushriks,Muslim.
Title: Re: Ameen come discuss a topic of your choice
Post by: Hani on January 19, 2015, 09:24:46 PM
All of this need to be addressed by qualified scholars I suppose, I just stay away from Takfeer because this is what the Sunnah teaches and recommends...


The Ithna-`Ashari cult is truly drowned to their noses in troublesome un-Islamic beliefs, anyone who joins them has certainly placed his Akhirah in great danger.
Title: Re: Ameen come discuss a topic of your choice
Post by: Ebn Hussein on January 19, 2015, 09:33:25 PM
Brother Hani, do you think any scholar and qadhi who knows the reality (real haqiqah) of the mushrik sect of the Rafidah will refrain from Takfir? Wallah al-Musta3an akhi. Let me remind you:

They believe:

1. Ali and the Imams (AS) are beings created out of God's own divine essence
2. They created EVERYTHING but Allah
3. They have control over all creation
4. They are  All-hearing, All-seeing, All-knowing, people call on in times of distress (and who responds to those calls)

That doesn't sounds like deities to you and you excuse them with their "bi2ithnillah" excuse?! Bro. if you were an average Shia refuter I'd understand your stance, but you know the haqiqah of these Mushriks, they can impossibily be Muslims, if so then be consistent and start excusing Qadyanis, Nusayris etc.
Title: Re: Ameen come discuss a topic of your choice
Post by: Furkan on January 19, 2015, 09:46:18 PM
But we can't just throw takfeer if we don't see their explanation.
Title: Re: Ameen come discuss a topic of your choice
Post by: Ebn Hussein on January 19, 2015, 09:58:31 PM
It's not about "throwing". Christians also have their "explanations". We are talking about shirk WORSE than the shirk of trinity. Yes, some Rawafid who do NOT hold those beliefs mentioned might be excused, but saying that those who DO hold those beliefs are excused merely due to justifying it, then this opens the door to excuse all sorts of heresies. You as a Hanafi should know that, for the Ahnaf are the harshest when it comes to the takfir on the Rafidah, even for much LESSER things that have been mentioned.
Title: Re: Ameen come discuss a topic of your choice
Post by: Bolani Muslim on January 19, 2015, 11:16:33 PM
I don't think blame should be put on most ignorant  laymen shia. Going on Sunni sites did I learn about all these weird shia beliefs, even most shias I know of are ignorant of their 'contreversial' beliefs. My shia mullah (who I asked) says that disbelieving in authenticity of Quran doesn't make one kafir, and that moving of verses (which will confuse the readers) occurred. However according to my mother anyone who holds these beliefs will go to the worst part of hell, this is coming from a woman who says good Hindus will enter jannah. :o
Title: Re: Ameen come discuss a topic of your choice
Post by: Hadrami on January 19, 2015, 11:23:38 PM
It's not about "throwing". Christians also have their "explanations". We are talking about shirk WORSE than the shirk of trinity. Yes, some Rawafid who do NOT hold those beliefs mentioned might be excused, but saying that those who DO hold those beliefs are excused merely due to justifying it, then this opens the door to excuse all sorts of heresies. You as a Hanafi should know that, for the Ahnaf are the harshest when it comes to the takfir on the Rafidah, even for much LESSER things that have been mentioned.

wonder why i have the impression that shia in iran view shafi'i as the least harsh against them? You are the harshest bro :D In this issue im with you though, lets not get overboard with excuses for the knowledgable shia or their scholars as for ignorant laymen, thats a different story.
Title: Re: Ameen come discuss a topic of your choice
Post by: Furkan on January 19, 2015, 11:39:36 PM
Yes, I did see many Ahnaaf scholars doing takfeer. I just want to know what shiites mean with this concept in detail, so yes, I do want their explanation if possible. And bro can you give the aya and it's tafseer about Isa as and the bird. (@ ebn hussein)

Lol bolani.
Title: Re: Ameen come discuss a topic of your choice
Post by: Furkan on January 19, 2015, 11:44:37 PM
Oh and can you give some shite narrations with source about Allah creating imams and the imams creating us (may Allah orotrct us from this devilry).

I am going to ask it somewhere so please post it as a text.

And uhm: Did you guys come across this concept, for the very first time?
Title: Re: Ameen come discuss a topic of your choice
Post by: Furkan on January 20, 2015, 12:10:54 AM
Found this: http://www.islamquest.net/en/archive/question/fa8168

In general it says that Adam was created with the light of Ali, and not by Ali himself since his flesh didn't excist yet (he wasnt born yet). Or something like that ( My brains don't want to give any space to this weird concept, alhamdulilah :) )

Don't know any background detail about this rubish explanation on that site.
Title: Re: Ameen come discuss a topic of your choice
Post by: Ebn Hussein on January 20, 2015, 12:17:27 AM
It's not about "throwing". Christians also have their "explanations". We are talking about shirk WORSE than the shirk of trinity. Yes, some Rawafid who do NOT hold those beliefs mentioned might be excused, but saying that those who DO hold those beliefs are excused merely due to justifying it, then this opens the door to excuse all sorts of heresies. You as a Hanafi should know that, for the Ahnaf are the harshest when it comes to the takfir on the Rafidah, even for much LESSER things that have been mentioned.

wonder why i have the impression that shia in iran view shafi'i as the least harsh against them? You are the harshest bro :D In this issue im with you though, lets not get overboard with excuses for the knowledgable shia or their scholars as for ignorant laymen, thats a different story.

Because they are Shayatin akhi, misusing some poems of Imam al-Shafi'i where he praised the Ahl al-Bayt (as if this is unique to al-Shafi'i!), and CONCEALING his other poems and fatwas where he attacks the Rafidah. I am a Shafi'i myself, it's the second biggest Sunni Madhab in Iran and Shafi'i scholars are one of the harshest scholars against the Rafidah, just look at their works, the likes of Abu Na'im al-Isfahani etc.
Title: Re: Ameen come discuss a topic of your choice
Post by: Furkan on January 20, 2015, 12:24:50 AM
It's no wonder shafis being harsh since the heretic safavids killed many people in Persia (Iran)
Title: Re: Ameen come discuss a topic of your choice
Post by: Hadrami on January 20, 2015, 01:19:45 AM

Because they are Shayatin akhi, misusing some poems of Imam al-Shafi'i where he praised the Ahl al-Bayt (as if this is unique to al-Shafi'i!), and CONCEALING his other poems and fatwas where he attacks the Rafidah. I am a Shafi'i myself, it's the second biggest Sunni Madhab in Iran and Shafi'i scholars are one of the harshest scholars against the Rafidah, just look at their works, the likes of Abu Na'im al-Isfahani etc.
what i meant was why you guys are seen as the least harsh? is it because mainstream shia dont know what your scholars stand for or they are just playing stupid? For example, al-haytami was shafi'i scholar right? we know shia dont like him, although they love to quote his book :D
Title: Re: Ameen come discuss a topic of your choice
Post by: Ebn Hussein on January 20, 2015, 01:30:03 AM
We are NOT being seen as least harsh, Akhi. As I've explained, they merely MISUSE some quotes of Imam al-Shafi'i (while omitting other statements of him, like the one in my signature) to champion their own religion, their scholars and more knowledgable know very well that Imam al-Shafi'i and the Shafi'is in general hate the guts of the Rafidah.
Title: Re: Ameen come discuss a topic of your choice
Post by: Ameen on January 20, 2015, 10:43:45 PM
We are NOT being seen as least harsh, Akhi. As I've explained, they merely MISUSE some quotes of Imam al-Shafi'i (while omitting other statements of him, like the one in my signature) to champion their own religion, their scholars and more knowledgable know very well that Imam al-Shafi'i and the Shafi'is in general hate the guts of the Rafidah.

How do they misuse??? What is the meaning of Rafidah and where did this word emerge from??

Title: Re: Ameen come discuss a topic of your choice
Post by: Furkan on January 20, 2015, 11:08:19 PM
Really Ameen, really?
Title: Re: Ameen come discuss a topic of your choice
Post by: Ameen on January 20, 2015, 11:12:44 PM
Found this: http://www.islamquest.net/en/archive/question/fa8168

In general it says that Adam was created with the light of Ali, and not by Ali himself since his flesh didn't excist yet (he wasnt born yet). Or something like that ( My brains don't want to give any space to this weird concept, alhamdulilah :) )

Don't know any background detail about this rubish explanation on that site.

Well get some background details then. Look into matters before putting them forward and discussing them. Otherwise it's jahalath based on gossip and rumours.



Title: Re: Ameen come discuss a topic of your choice
Post by: Furkan on January 20, 2015, 11:15:58 PM
Dude I was one of the lesser people who wanted an explanation yet you yell at me. Haha

Anyway, it's kufr lvl 9000 since this concept clearly contradicts the fact that ONLY Allah can create.
Title: Re: Ameen come discuss a topic of your choice
Post by: Ameen on January 20, 2015, 11:17:35 PM
Really Ameen, really?

If you can't make yourself usefull by positive contribution towards this thread then just keep quiet.
Title: Re: Ameen come discuss a topic of your choice
Post by: Ameen on January 20, 2015, 11:19:20 PM
Dude I was one of the lesser people who wanted an explanation yet you yell at me. Haha

Anyway, it's kufr lvl 9000 since this concept clearly contradicts the fact that ONLY Allah can create.

Talk is cheap and that's all you seem to have.
Title: Re: Ameen come discuss a topic of your choice
Post by: Furkan on January 20, 2015, 11:22:08 PM
Alright mr.shia, explain this divine concept of your twelvth imam who is in hiding.
Title: Re: Ameen come discuss a topic of your choice
Post by: Ameen on January 20, 2015, 11:28:46 PM
All of this need to be addressed by qualified scholars I suppose, I just stay away from Takfeer because this is what the Sunnah teaches and recommends...


The Ithna-`Ashari cult is truly drowned to their noses in troublesome un-Islamic beliefs, anyone who joins them has certainly placed his Akhirah in great danger.

And I suppose we believe in the same about you. So where do we go from here??? All I see here is a one sided opinion, nothing more and nothing less. What's been put forward is absolute nonsense. We don't call upon anyone apart from Allah but it seems to me that Ebn Hussein is desparate to put down the Shia. This is extremism at its most high, based on prejudice. May Allah guide him.






Title: Re: Ameen come discuss a topic of your choice
Post by: Ameen on January 20, 2015, 11:33:04 PM
Alright mr.shia, explain this divine concept of your twelvth imam who is in hiding.

Well first of all I asked brother Ebn Hussein for an explanation of why he thinks Shiaism is a religion of Satan and also a religion of shirk. He said that it was none of my business what he thinks and believes in. So what do you say???




Title: Re: Ameen come discuss a topic of your choice
Post by: Furkan on January 20, 2015, 11:34:26 PM
I say: answer me
Title: Re: Ameen come discuss a topic of your choice
Post by: Hani on January 20, 2015, 11:37:15 PM
All of this need to be addressed by qualified scholars I suppose, I just stay away from Takfeer because this is what the Sunnah teaches and recommends...


The Ithna-`Ashari cult is truly drowned to their noses in troublesome un-Islamic beliefs, anyone who joins them has certainly placed his Akhirah in great danger.

And I suppose we believe in the same about you. So where do we go from here??? All I see here is a one sided opinion, nothing more and nothing less. What's been put forward is absolute nonsense. We don't call upon anyone apart from Allah but it seems to me that Ebn Hussein is desparate to put down the Shia. This is extremism at its most high, based on prejudice. May Allah guide him.








I disagree, you do call on others other than Allah.

As for this thread, you wasted it with such a dumb narrow minded topic. Enjoy your topic, I'm out.
Title: Re: Ameen come discuss a topic of your choice
Post by: Ameen on January 20, 2015, 11:38:22 PM
Hani, kindly answer my question on the first page, please.

Jazak'Allah.

Gimme an example

Some Shia (according to AntiMajos) says they believe their Imams created man or human beings and control the nature of life. We know Allah (SWT) is in complete and command of his creations not the creation itself.

And which Shia are these??? Also any references??? Or is this tale also based on gossip and rumours???

Title: Re: Ameen come discuss a topic of your choice
Post by: Optimus Prime on January 21, 2015, 12:01:00 AM
Hani, kindly answer my question on the first page, please.

Jazak'Allah.

Gimme an example

Some Shia (according to AntiMajos) says they believe their Imams created man or human beings and control the nature of life. We know Allah (SWT) is in complete and command of his creations not the creation itself.

And which Shia are these??? Also any references??? Or is this tale also based on gossip and rumours???



There is a video where your own scholars make such claims.

Wanna' see?
Title: Re: Ameen come discuss a topic of your choice
Post by: Bolani Muslim on January 21, 2015, 12:07:57 AM
I believe the idea of imams controlling all atoms is called Wilayah-al-Takwiniyya (if anyone knows more about it). I think it's related to the video that, here's what I found out about it.

 Wilayah Takwiniyyah: which means guardianship by creation. This means God grants certain abilities to certain chosen humans due to their nearness to Him, to influence this world and to perform what we call ‘miracles’, all by the Leave and Permission of God. The Shia believe that the Imams of Ahlul-Bayt (a.s) enjoyed the highest level of this Wilayah.
http://www.askthesheikh.com/do-shias-really-believe-that-the-imams-have-control-over-the-entire-universe/

So according to the author, Allah Paak made the universe, Ahul Bait (a.s), ect. After Allah (ج) made everything, He (ج) gave the power of ruling everything to the Ahlul bayt (kinda like demi gods). So according to his Shia mind, Allah is still in control for making Ahlul Bayt, it's just that Ahlul Bayt runs everything in the world (I'm curious what Imam Ali a.s would say if he heard this disgusting kufr ::)).

I'm just curious at this point how Ameen is still Shia at this point, all the questions he has and hasn't come with have been answered.
 
Title: Re: Ameen come discuss a topic of your choice
Post by: Furkan on January 21, 2015, 12:28:43 AM
Wilaya takwiniya is God creating imams and imams creating us, According shiite naration.
Title: Re: Ameen come discuss a topic of your choice
Post by: Hadrami on January 21, 2015, 01:45:07 AM
i wonder how many shia know about this belief? Or is it only concealed among the elite/scholars?
Title: Re: Ameen come discuss a topic of your choice
Post by: Furkan on January 21, 2015, 01:49:06 AM
Hmm, I will ask 2 rafidis today. Will Let you know what their answer is.
Title: Re: Ameen come discuss a topic of your choice
Post by: Ameen on January 21, 2015, 06:54:40 PM
Hmm, I will ask 2 rafidis today. Will Let you know what their answer is.

Ask to learn and to know and not to criticise and condemn. Discuss to share inormation and not to cause mischief. Please do let me know about the out come and you haven't answered my question.



Title: Re: Ameen come discuss a topic of your choice
Post by: Furkan on January 21, 2015, 07:36:49 PM
Ameen, you earlier on said this:

Quote
How do they misuse??? What is the meaning of Rafidah and where did this word emerge from??

Suddenly you do know what rafidah means:

Hmm, I will ask 2 rafidis today. Will Let you know what their answer is.

Ask to learn and to know and not to criticise and condemn. Discuss to share inormation and not to cause mischief. Please do let me know about the out come and you haven't answered my question.
Title: Re: Ameen come discuss a topic of your choice
Post by: Ameen on January 21, 2015, 10:09:06 PM
Ameen, you earlier on said this:

Quote
How do they misuse??? What is the meaning of Rafidah and where did this word emerge from??

Suddenly you do know what rafidah means:

Hmm, I will ask 2 rafidis today. Will Let you know what their answer is.

Ask to learn and to know and not to criticise and condemn. Discuss to share inormation and not to cause mischief. Please do let me know about the out come and you haven't answered my question.

Calling someone a Rafidi or a particular sect Rafidah is one thing but what does the word Rafidah mean and where and how did it emerge???
Any positive contributions from you Mr??? Or are you just a side kick???




Title: Re: Ameen come discuss a topic of your choice
Post by: Ameen on January 21, 2015, 10:17:25 PM
All of this need to be addressed by qualified scholars I suppose, I just stay away from Takfeer because this is what the Sunnah teaches and recommends...


The Ithna-`Ashari cult is truly drowned to their noses in troublesome un-Islamic beliefs, anyone who joins them has certainly placed his Akhirah in great danger.

And I suppose we believe in the same about you. So where do we go from here??? All I see here is a one sided opinion, nothing more and nothing less. What's been put forward is absolute nonsense. We don't call upon anyone apart from Allah but it seems to me that Ebn Hussein is desparate to put down the Shia. This is extremism at its most high, based on prejudice. May Allah guide him.








I disagree, you do call on others other than Allah.

As for this thread, you wasted it with such a dumb narrow minded topic. Enjoy your topic, I'm out.

We don't call upon anyone apart from Allah. And I agree with you that this is a dumb narrow minded topic but it's Ebn Hussein who believes in it. Most of your threads are dumb and narrow minded but I know you are hesitant when it comes to others. What, you've had enough already???





Title: Re: Ameen come discuss a topic of your choice
Post by: Hani on January 21, 2015, 10:22:09 PM
Al-Raafidah is a late term use by the Muslims to describe those who claim to be Shia to `Ali yet reject the Caliphate of the Shaykhayn and accuse them of evil things and disown them. It literally means "the rejecters" and they became distinctly popular for it as no other Muslim group ever rejected the Shaykhayn except this sect and the Ummah has consensus over the legitimacy of the Shaykhayn's Caliphate. The early term used to describe this group was "al-Sabaa'iyyah" in reference to `Abdullah ibn Saba' the creator of their sect and the one who produced the idea of Wasiyyah, you will find the very early Muslims using the term "Sabaa'iyyah" to refer to them but this changed after the revolution of Zayd ibn `Ali bin al-Husayn since he was the first to give those individuals this name.


Another weak opinion states that it was Rasul-Allah (saw) himself who called them Raafidah but this is not accepted as the narrations are weak (although good in number).


Those who were known as the Raafidah and they are mainly the Imaamiyyah of our days, as a reaction later produced narrations stating that this was an honorary term, and that their Imam praised them by calling them Raafidah.
Title: Re: Ameen come discuss a topic of your choice
Post by: Hani on January 21, 2015, 10:24:19 PM
We don't call upon anyone apart from Allah. And I agree with you that this is a dumb narrow minded topic but it's Ebn Hussein who believes in it. Most of your threads are dumb and narrow minded but I know you are hesitant when it comes to others. What, you've had enough already???

You don't fool anyone but yourself, it's actually Mutawatir that you call on other than Allah, the disagreement is whether you deserve to be classed as Mushrikeen or whether an excuse can be given because of the intention of these callers.