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Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?

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iceman

Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
« Reply #20 on: June 23, 2018, 12:49:31 PM »
After the Messenger's pbuh death things dramatically took a different turn. Just to cut a long story short Abu Bakr became Caliph and a new authority was established. This authority had their own ideas and ways of doing things. The current system of where the tax collectors had the right to decide where and how the money should be spent was scrapped and these tax collectors were ordered to hand the money over to the new establishment and from now onwards they will decide on how and where the money will be distributed and spent.

The tax collectors were not happy with this decision and deemed it necessary that things should remain the same and the curtent system should left as the Prophet pbuh left it since there were no concerns or complaints regarding the current system. This was Malik bin Nuwayrah's approach and concern and this is what he campaigned for. But the Caliph had his own idea and claimed that the Messenger pbuh dead and now he is incharge.

It was a political dispute based on change of policy and that is all. The Caliph used force were necessary to get people to comply. Use of force and heavy handed tactics have been the approach of certain rulers and administrations. Another point one needs to keep in mind is that you don't  PAY Zakah but in fact you GIVE Zakah. It is something that you give and is not something that is taken. And if you don't hand it over then there are severe consequences. Lets say that if someone doesn't pray or fast or give Zakah then are you Wajib Ul Qatal? Or do you become Wajib Ul Qatal? Do you face the death penalty?

iceman

Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
« Reply #21 on: June 23, 2018, 12:55:19 PM »
Just going to do another copy and paste job. Lets hope I don't get slammed for this as well. Take a look at the following and I will discuss it later.

Volume 9, Book 84, Number 59 :
Narrated by Abu Huraira
When the Prophet died and Abu Bakr became his successor and some of the Arabs reverted to disbelief, 'Umar said, "O Abu Bakr! How can you fight these people although Allah's Apostle said, 'I have been ordered to fight the people till they say: 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah, 'and whoever said, 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah', Allah will save his property and his life from me, unless (he does something for which he receives legal punishment) justly, and his account will be with Allah?' "Abu Bakr said, "By Allah! I will fight whoever differentiates between prayers and Zakat as Zakat is the right to be taken from property (according to Allah's Orders). By Allah! If they refused to pay me even a kid they used to pay to Allah's Apostle, I would fight with them for withholding it." 'Umar said, "By Allah: It was nothing, but I noticed that Allah opened Abu Bakr's chest towards the decision to fight, therefore I realized that his decision was right."

zaid_ibn_ali

Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
« Reply #22 on: June 23, 2018, 01:16:37 PM »
The prophet SAW didn’t just allow peoole to collect & do as they please in regards to zakat.
When a leader is chosen then you accept the decision or you rebel. Malik rebelled. He paid the price.
If khalid didn’t deal with him sterny then more people would have rebelled & there would of been total chaos.
Any nation if you don’t obey the law of the land you get punished.

iceman

Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
« Reply #23 on: June 23, 2018, 05:20:33 PM »
The prophet SAW didn’t just allow peoole to collect & do as they please in regards to zakat.
When a leader is chosen then you accept the decision or you rebel. Malik rebelled. He paid the price.
If khalid didn’t deal with him sterny then more people would have rebelled & there would of been total chaos.
Any nation if you don’t obey the law of the land you get punished.

"The prophet SAW didn’t just allow peoole to collect & do as they please in regards to zakat"

Ok, what did he pbuh advise or do? You tell me. Surely there must have been some system in place.

"When a leader is chosen then you accept the decision or you rebel. Malik rebelled. He paid the price."

Ok, this is related to what you've said, what about those who rebelled against the 4th rightly guided Caliph? What exactly is your position on them? If you have a principal in place as such,

"When a leader is chosen then you accept the decision or you rebel"

then at least stick to it. It's not about pick and choose or twist and turn as it suits you.

"If khalid didn’t deal with him sterny then more people would have rebelled & there would of been total chaos"

I will comment on this.

"Any nation if you don’t obey the law of the land you get punished"

We're talking about Qur'an and Sunnah and that is the law of the land.

What is Zakah? It's something you GIVE out of your hard earned money. It's not something you pay. It's a benefit GIVEN by you and not a benefit TAKEN from you. It's not tax which ypu have to pay. It's compulsory by Allah just as fasting, praying etc. You are answerable to Allah and not to any ruler or man made law.

iceman

Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
« Reply #24 on: June 23, 2018, 05:27:50 PM »
The alms are only for the Fuqara' (the poor), and Al-Masakin (the needy) and those employed to collect (the funds); and to attract the hearts of those who have been inclined (towards Islam); and to free the captives; and for those in debt; and for Allah's Cause, and for the wayfarer (a traveler who is cut off from everything); a duty imposed by Allah. And Allah is All-Knower, All-Wise." [Al-Quran 9:60]

Where does it say that Zakah is something you pay or give to a ruler and he decides what to do with it when Allah clearly mentions that Zakah is something you give from your hard earned money and who to give is clear in the Qur'an.

Zakat (also known as 'Zakah'), is the giving of a set amount of your wealth to charity. Muslims pay Zakat as an act of worship, and although it is sometimes compared to a tax, it isn't like taxes imposed by governments. Zakat is a spiritual duty, solely for the sake of Allah

The Qur’an mentions eight groups of people on who Zakat should be spent:

(Surat At-Tawbah 9:60)

The Fuqara’ (the poor)
Al-Maskin (the needy)
Aamileen (Zakat collector)
Muallafatul Quloob (poor and needy who recently converted to Islam)
Ar-Riqaab (slaves; Zakat can be used to purchase their freedom)
Ibnus-Sabeel: A stranded traveller in need of financial assistance.
Al Ghaarimeen: A debtor
Fi Sabeelillah: Those who are away from home in the path of Allah

Where does it say in the Qur'an that you pay Zakah to a ruler? Or where does it say that the ruler has the right to force people to pay Zakah to him and he decides what to do with the money and how and where it should be spent?
« Last Edit: June 23, 2018, 05:35:54 PM by iceman »

iceman

Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
« Reply #25 on: June 23, 2018, 05:52:23 PM »
Maalik ibn Nuwayrah was known by the kunyah Abu Hanzalah; he was a poet and knight, one of the knights of Banu Yarboo’, and the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) employed him to collect the zakaah of his people.

The historical reports agree to some extent that Maalik ibn Nuwayrah was killed by some of the troops of Khaalid ibn al-Waleed, and that after that Khaalid married his wife Layla bint Sinaan.

As for the reason why Maalik ibn Nuwayrah was killed, and the circumstances surrounding this incident, the reports vary, but most of the earlier historians who recorded this incident, such as al-Waaqidi, Ibn Ishaaq, Wuthaymah, Sayf ibn ‘Umar, Ibn Sa’d, Khaleefah ibn Khayyaat and others, state that Maalik ibn Nuwayrah refused to pay zakaah and withheld the zakaah camels, and he prevented his people from paying it, which led Khaalid to kill him, without paying any attention to his claim that he was Muslim and prayed regularly.

Ibn Salaam said in Tabaqaat Fuhool al-Shu’ara’ (172):

zaid_ibn_ali

Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
« Reply #26 on: June 23, 2018, 06:28:48 PM »
Ali when caliph wrote to Malik Ashtar: “If taxpayers complain to you about heavy incidence of taxation, of any accidental calamity, of vagaries of monsoon, of scarcity and stoppage of the means of irrigation, of floods or destruction of their crops on account of excessive rainfall and if their complaints are true then reduce their taxes. “.

Nahjul Balagha op.cit., p. 502

Clearly the people had no choice. They were allowed a reduced amount but it still had to be paid.


zaid_ibn_ali

Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
« Reply #27 on: June 23, 2018, 07:17:02 PM »
Al-Khoie: “The person designated with the collection of Zakaha is the either the Mahdi or his representative.” [Ayatollah Al-Khoie,Al-Mustanad fi sharh Al-‘Urwah Al-Wuthqa, p. 13, chapter of Zakah].

So even your own top scholars say the Imam or his representative is in charge of collecting zakat.
Abu Bakr was the leader, Khalid his representative.

iceman

Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
« Reply #28 on: June 23, 2018, 09:12:43 PM »
Al-Khoie: “The person designated with the collection of Zakaha is the either the Mahdi or his representative.” [Ayatollah Al-Khoie,Al-Mustanad fi sharh Al-‘Urwah Al-Wuthqa, p. 13, chapter of Zakah].

So even your own top scholars say the Imam or his representative is in charge of collecting zakat.
Abu Bakr was the leader, Khalid his representative.

And what does the Qur'an say about Zakah? What you've given me is references from books. Explain and justify it from the Qur'an.

iceman

Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
« Reply #29 on: June 23, 2018, 09:14:12 PM »
The prophet SAW didn’t just allow peoole to collect & do as they please in regards to zakat.
When a leader is chosen then you accept the decision or you rebel. Malik rebelled. He paid the price.
If khalid didn’t deal with him sterny then more people would have rebelled & there would of been total chaos.
Any nation if you don’t obey the law of the land you get punished.

Justify this from the Qur'an. Only then we have something.

zaid_ibn_ali

Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
« Reply #30 on: June 23, 2018, 10:41:09 PM »
Oh now you’re a Quran only guy.
Well thats too bad as there’s no mention of 12 Imams in there.
So nice try...

muslim720

Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
« Reply #31 on: June 23, 2018, 11:01:19 PM »
The majority of the Muslims believe that Hussain'sstance and sacrifice saved Islam.

As said earlier by brother Zaid, quote me someone with authority who has said the same.  I'll cut your work out for you.  You have copy-pasted a number of alleged quotes from Al-Islam.org from various scholars.  Go through those quotes and show me where one scholar worth the name said that Imam Hussain (ra) saved Islam.


Quote
First this needs to be acknowledged that this is not a Sunni Shia issue or a difference between Sunnis and Shia thought. It's a view of majority of the Muslims against minority. Let me first deal with the case of Malik bin Nuwayrah which is so desperately asked for.

Two days ago, you wanted to deal with the case of Yazeed, first.  Why do you twitch out of control like a fish pulled out of water?  The point you keep dodging is that your praise for Imam Hussain (ra), for "saving Islam", knows no bounds while at the same time, you beseech Allah (swt) to be pleased with Malik who clearly said that Zakah was due to the Prophet (saw) and after the Prophet's (saw) passing away, paying of Zakah was nullified.


Quote
First of all why on earth would a Companion of the Prophet s.a.w, (Malik bin Nuwayrah) who also happened to be a tax collector, all of a sudden and out of the blue deny the giving of Zakat and reject that it's got anything to do with Islam. This is something that is absolutely and completely clear. It's like shooting yourself in the foot intentionally and knowingly.

Adopting Ammar Nakshawani's opinion, I hope you are not trying to allude to the nonsensical, fabricated and baseless argument that "Malik stopped paying Zakah because he deemed Abu Bakr's Caliphate to be illegitimate".  Brother Adnan Rashid, in his video response, pressed Ammar Nakshawani on this issue and demanded for authentic proof.  Similar to the 12th Imam, the proof (for this absurd claim) is nowhere to be seen.


The rest of your nonsense has been refuted by brother Zaid.
"Our coward ran from those in authority" - Iceman (admitting the truth regarding his 12th Imam)

iceman

Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
« Reply #32 on: June 24, 2018, 05:46:29 AM »
Oh now you’re a Quran only guy.
Well thats too bad as there’s no mention of 12 Imams in there.
So nice try...

We're not talking about the 12 Imams. Don't you like sticking to the subject?

"Oh now you’re a Quran only guy"

Please do remind yourself of the above every time you ask the same.

So any proof from the Qur'an since we're talking about Zakah?

iceman

Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
« Reply #33 on: June 24, 2018, 06:36:23 AM »
As said earlier by brother Zaid, quote me someone with authority who has said the same.  I'll cut your work out for you.  You have copy-pasted a number of alleged quotes from Al-Islam.org from various scholars.  Go through those quotes and show me where one scholar worth the name said that Imam Hussain (ra) saved Islam.


Two days ago, you wanted to deal with the case of Yazeed, first.  Why do you twitch out of control like a fish pulled out of water?  The point you keep dodging is that your praise for Imam Hussain (ra), for "saving Islam", knows no bounds while at the same time, you beseech Allah (swt) to be pleased with Malik who clearly said that Zakah was due to the Prophet (saw) and after the Prophet's (saw) passing away, paying of Zakah was nullified.


Adopting Ammar Nakshawani's opinion, I hope you are not trying to allude to the nonsensical, fabricated and baseless argument that "Malik stopped paying Zakah because he deemed Abu Bakr's Caliphate to be illegitimate".  Brother Adnan Rashid, in his video response, pressed Ammar Nakshawani on this issue and demanded for authentic proof.  Similar to the 12th Imam, the proof (for this absurd claim) is nowhere to be seen.


The rest of your nonsense has been refuted by brother Zaid.

"You have copy-pasted a number of alleged quotes from Al-Islam.org from various scholars"

I've also done the same from Sunni sites but you haven't dared touch that. So I don't know why you just comment on only what suits you. The quotes I put forward from Al-Islam.org, I asked you what your opinion was about them, And THAT IS ALL. But you have seemed to make a huge fuss about it. Trying to gain lost credibility?

iceman

Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
« Reply #34 on: June 24, 2018, 07:28:21 AM »
"Go through those quotes and show me where one scholar worth the name said that Imam Hussain (ra) saved Islam"

No problem. BUT, There are principles, rules and regulations when it comes to discussions, debates and arguments. We also have reality and facts. Let me explain, if you put forward and issue which Shias believed in only and you questioned that (such as Mu'tah for instance) then I'm on it. Whether you accept or reject what I say and put forward is a different matter.

But if you put forward and issue and label it as a Shia only opinion and thought where I see it as a majority Muslim opinion and thought then that is a totally separate matter. You have mentioned this as a Shia only opinion where I have instantly pointed out to you that this is actually an opinion of the majority of the Muslims. I have also put forward various quotes from Sunni sites which I didn't need to because it's a known, open and common fact that it is the view of majority of the Muslims. Only a minority disagree and think otherwise.

So first of all what do you want? People to start dancing to your tune when ever you feel like it.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2018, 07:29:51 AM by iceman »

iceman

Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
« Reply #35 on: June 24, 2018, 07:34:45 AM »
This is the headline of your thread;

"Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam"

My first and instant point and response was,

Is this a Shia only opinion? I believe it isn't. Majority of the Muslims believe this, Shias as well as Sunnis. Can you address this first if you're not too hesitant?

iceman

Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
« Reply #36 on: June 24, 2018, 09:45:41 AM »
This is what you also said;

"Having established the background, let us now introduce the case of Malik bin Nuwayrah.  Known for actually violating the Islamic injunction of Zakat, Malik sought to do away with Zakat through his logic and actions.  In other words, Malik adopted a different view or belief towards Zakat and urged others to do the same (which was to stop paying the Zakat).  So why is it that Shias (rightfully) condemn Yazeed for violating the Shariah but type "radhiAllahu anhu" after they make mention of Malik bin Nuwayrah, a man whose intent to change the Shariah has been well-established?"

Isn't it weird that the protectors and the defenders of the Sahaba and the believers that 'once a Sahaba always a Sahaba' accuse such a noble companion of such a ridiculous crime. So who actually accuses and abuses the Sahaba? It most certainly isn't us here. A Sahabi accused by Sunnis of becoming apostate? Can you prove the case of Malik bin Nuwayrah? I mean it's just your opinion but based on what? Because he was in dispute with Abu bakr? It seems like that was his only crime.

Zakah is obligatory on every Muslim but what is Zakah? It's something you give but to who? The needy and the vulnerable. Allah has outlined it and I have already mentioned it in detail. Zakah is something you give voluntarily and it's down to you.

Prove to me from the Qur'an that after Muhammad s.a.w any ruler has the right to take Zakah from people even by the use of force? I'm not asking for too much, am I?
« Last Edit: June 24, 2018, 09:50:53 AM by iceman »

zaid_ibn_ali

Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
« Reply #37 on: June 24, 2018, 11:21:33 AM »
This is the headline of your thread;

"Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam"

My first and instant point and response was,

Is this a Shia only opinion? I believe it isn't. Majority of the Muslims believe this, Shias as well as Sunnis. Can you address this first if you're not too hesitant?

You say the majority of muslims believe he SAVED Islam. Yet not one quote from a notable muslim who is isn’t shia saying he SAVED Islam.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2018, 11:31:48 AM by zaid_ibn_ali »

zaid_ibn_ali

Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
« Reply #38 on: June 24, 2018, 11:25:02 AM »
This is what you also said;

"Having established the background, let us now introduce the case of Malik bin Nuwayrah.  Known for actually violating the Islamic injunction of Zakat, Malik sought to do away with Zakat through his logic and actions.  In other words, Malik adopted a different view or belief towards Zakat and urged others to do the same (which was to stop paying the Zakat).  So why is it that Shias (rightfully) condemn Yazeed for violating the Shariah but type "radhiAllahu anhu" after they make mention of Malik bin Nuwayrah, a man whose intent to change the Shariah has been well-established?"

Isn't it weird that the protectors and the defenders of the Sahaba and the believers that 'once a Sahaba always a Sahaba' accuse such a noble companion of such a ridiculous crime. So who actually accuses and abuses the Sahaba? It most certainly isn't us here. A Sahabi accused by Sunnis of becoming apostate? Can you prove the case of Malik bin Nuwayrah? I mean it's just your opinion but based on what? Because he was in dispute with Abu bakr? It seems like that was his only crime.

Zakah is obligatory on every Muslim but what is Zakah? It's something you give but to who? The needy and the vulnerable. Allah has outlined it and I have already mentioned it in detail. Zakah is something you give voluntarily and it's down to you.

Prove to me from the Qur'an that after Muhammad s.a.w any ruler has the right to take Zakah from people even by the use of force? I'm not asking for too much, am I?

Ali & the other infallibles know the true Quran only remember. Not me or you. I’ve proven from your sources he did it & that the 12th Imam will do it too.😆
So go ask the 12th Imam. Or ask Ali as he can hear you as well remember😉

iceman

Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
« Reply #39 on: June 24, 2018, 11:35:23 AM »
You say the majority of muslims believe he SAVED Islam. Yet not one quote from a notable muslim who is isn’t shia saying he SAVED Islam.

What do you mean by NOTABLE MUSLIM? who doesn't happen to be a Shia?

 

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