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Sunni Shia Discussion Forum => General Sunni-Shia => Topic started by: muslim720 on June 17, 2018, 06:25:46 AM

Title: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: muslim720 on June 17, 2018, 06:25:46 AM
Salaam alaykum wa rahmatullah,

We have all heard, perhaps also reminded a dozen times, that we must be thankful to Imam Hussain (ra) for his sacrifice (at Karbala) without which we may have lost Islam.  It is said that the Imam's (ra) sacrifice prevented Yazeed's distortion of the religion from propagating and spreading throughout the Islamic world.  While Yazeed is accused of corrupting Islam, I have yet to see any Shia prove that from authentic sources.  In other words, there is nothing which suggests that Yazeed was destroying Islam.  No doubt he was a corrupt man, deserving the highest of condemnations but there is a difference between nature and intent.  Yazeed was rogue by nature, however, his intent to purposefully distort Islam has not been proven (via authentic text).  This, while I also argue that I cannot perceive anyone who had a direct or indirect hand in the killing of Imam Hussain (ra) to enter Paradise.

Having established the background, let us now introduce the case of Malik bin Nuwayrah.  Known for actually violating the Islamic injunction of Zakat, Malik sought to do away with Zakat through his logic and actions.  In other words, Malik adopted a different view or belief towards Zakat and urged others to do the same (which was to stop paying the Zakat).  So why is it that Shias (rightfully) condemn Yazeed for violating the Shariah but type "radhiAllahu anhu" after they make mention of Malik bin Nuwayrah, a man whose intent to change the Shariah has been well-established?

We know the answer to the question.  I only wonder if Shias can see their own dichotomy.
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: iceman on June 17, 2018, 06:42:08 PM
Salaam alaykum wa rahmatullah,

We have all heard, perhaps also reminded a dozen times, that we must be thankful to Imam Hussain (ra) for his sacrifice (at Karbala) without which we may have lost Islam.  It is said that the Imam's (ra) sacrifice prevented Yazeed's distortion of the religion from propagating and spreading throughout the Islamic world.  While Yazeed is accused of corrupting Islam, I have yet to see any Shia prove that from authentic sources.  In other words, there is nothing which suggests that Yazeed was destroying Islam.  No doubt he was a corrupt man, deserving the highest of condemnations but there is a difference between nature and intent.  Yazeed was rogue by nature, however, his intent to purposefully distort Islam has not been proven (via authentic text).  This, while I also argue that I cannot perceive anyone who had a direct or indirect hand in the killing of Imam Hussain (ra) to enter Paradise.

Having established the background, let us now introduce the case of Malik bin Nuwayrah.  Known for actually violating the Islamic injunction of Zakat, Malik sought to do away with Zakat through his logic and actions.  In other words, Malik adopted a different view or belief towards Zakat and urged others to do the same (which was to stop paying the Zakat).  So why is it that Shias (rightfully) condemn Yazeed for violating the Shariah but type "radhiAllahu anhu" after they make mention of Malik bin Nuwayrah, a man whose intent to change the Shariah has been well-established?

We know the answer to the question.  I only wonder if Shias can see their own dichotomy.

VERY INTERESTING. First of all why is this only addressed to the Shias? The Shias as well as vast majority of the Sunnis believe that Hussain sacrificed his life to save and protect Islam, its principles and teachings. It's only a minority, a relatively small amount of Sunnis who hold your view.

Secondly you mention the companion Malik bin Nuwayrah, we hold a very different view from you concerning Malik. I will mention it.
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: muslim720 on June 20, 2018, 02:28:15 AM
VERY INTERESTING. First of all why is this only addressed to the Shias?

...because only Shias believe that if not for Imam Hussain (ra), Islam would have been damaged without repair, possibly perished.  Sunnis, however, commemorate the sacrifice of Imam Hussain (ra) while also remembering the promise of Allah (swt) to protect the Qur'an and make the Deen victorious. 



Quote
Secondly you mention the companion Malik bin Nuwayrah, we hold a very different view from you concerning Malik. I will mention it.

No need to mention it!  I know he is "radhiAllahu anhu" for you.  While you cannot categorically prove how Yazeed intended to change the Shariah, you invoke Allah (swt) to be pleased with a man (Malik bin Nuwayrah) who exactly intended to do just that (that is, tried to change the Shariah on Zakat).
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: iceman on June 20, 2018, 04:38:57 PM
https://www.quora.com/profile/Umar-Suharwardy-1

https://www.quora.com/profile/Ali-Shams-12
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: iceman on June 20, 2018, 05:26:17 PM
Surah An Nisaa, verse 93,

"Whoever kills a believer intentionally - his recompense is Hell, wherein he will abide eternally, and Allah has become angry with him and has cursed him and has prepared for him a great punishment."

(4:93)
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: muslim720 on June 21, 2018, 03:03:07 AM
Surah An Nisaa, verse 93,

"Whoever kills a believer intentionally - his recompense is Hell, wherein he will abide eternally, and Allah has become angry with him and has cursed him and has prepared for him a great punishment."

(4:93)

Displaying the characteristics of a bot, you have not surprised me with your two links that have nothing to do with the topic.  As for the verse, the stipulation for Hell is that if you kill a believer intentionally.  Khalid ibn Waleed (ra) presented his case for killing Malik bin Nuwayrah which was far from intentional killing of an innocent believer.  By the way, who said Malik was a believer?  Refusing to pay Zakah is apostasy, punishable by death, even according to Shi'i narrations.

Here are three narrations from Al-Kafi declaring those who refuse to pay Zakah as apostates:
   
‘Ali ibn Ibrahim from his father from Isma’il ibn Marrar fromYunus from Ibn Muskan … on the authority of Abu Ja’far (Muhammad ibn ‘Ali Al-Baqir): “The Messenger of Allah addressed a group of people in the mosque telling some of them to get up [of the mosque] until he threw out five persons, then he said: “Get out of our mosque and do not pray in here whilst you haven’t paid your Zakah.” [Al Kafi vol. 3 – The Book Of Zakah ch. 2]

Yunus from ‘Ali ibn Abi Hamzah from Abu Basir on the authority of Abu ‘Abdillah (Al-Sadiq), who said: “We refuses to pay even a single ounce of the Zakah is not a believer nor a Muslim and this is the statement of Him (Allah), may He be glorified and exalted […].” [Al-Kafi vol. 3 – The Book Of Zakah ch. 2]

Abu ‘Ali Al-Ash’ari, from the one who mentioned it, from Hafs ibn ‘Omar, from Salim, from Abu Basir, (It has been narrated) from Abu ‘Abdullah (Al-Sadiq), who said: “Whoever refuses to pay a carat of Zakat, let him choose to die as a Jew or a Christian (i.e. kafir).” [Al-Kafi vol. 3 – The Book Of Zakah ch. 2]

And what is the punishment for refusing to pay Zakah?

....from Sahl from ibn Shamun from Al-Asam from Malikk ibn ‘Utbah from Ibn Taghlub who said: “Abu Abdullah (i.e. Al-Sadiq) told me: “Allah has declared the blood of two types of people permissible to be shed in Islam, nobody must judge with regards to these two types until Allah sends our Qa’im (Shia Mahdi) from Ahl Al-Bayt, and when Allah sends him, he will judge with regards to these two types according to the ruling of Allah, without requiring any testimony, which is: The adulterer will be stoned and the one who refuses to pay the Zakah will get beheaded.” [Al-Kafi vol. 3 – The Book Of Zakah ch. 2]

The above narration can be found in many other primary and secondary Shia sources, such as:

1. Man La Yahduruhu Al-Faqih, vol. 2, p. 11
2. Wasa’il Al-Shia, vol.6, p. 19
3. Al-Mahasin, p. 87, in Kamal Al-Din, v. 2, p. 671
4. Al-Khisal, v. 1, p. 169
5. Raudah Al-Wa’idhin, v. 2, p. 356
6. Wasa’il Al-Shia, vol.6, p. 19
7. Basa’ir Al-Darajat, p. 170
8. Bihar Al-Anwar, vol. 52, p. 309
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: iceman on June 21, 2018, 11:16:07 PM
Displaying the characteristics of a bot, you have not surprised me with your two links that have nothing to do with the topic.  As for the verse, the stipulation for Hell is that if you kill a believer intentionally.  Khalid ibn Waleed (ra) presented his case for killing Malik bin Nuwayrah which was far from intentional killing of an innocent believer.  By the way, who said Malik was a believer?  Refusing to pay Zakah is apostasy, punishable by death, even according to Shi'i narrations.

Here are three narrations from Al-Kafi declaring those who refuse to pay Zakah as apostates:
   
‘Ali ibn Ibrahim from his father from Isma’il ibn Marrar fromYunus from Ibn Muskan … on the authority of Abu Ja’far (Muhammad ibn ‘Ali Al-Baqir): “The Messenger of Allah addressed a group of people in the mosque telling some of them to get up [of the mosque] until he threw out five persons, then he said: “Get out of our mosque and do not pray in here whilst you haven’t paid your Zakah.” [Al Kafi vol. 3 – The Book Of Zakah ch. 2]

Yunus from ‘Ali ibn Abi Hamzah from Abu Basir on the authority of Abu ‘Abdillah (Al-Sadiq), who said: “We refuses to pay even a single ounce of the Zakah is not a believer nor a Muslim and this is the statement of Him (Allah), may He be glorified and exalted […].” [Al-Kafi vol. 3 – The Book Of Zakah ch. 2]

Abu ‘Ali Al-Ash’ari, from the one who mentioned it, from Hafs ibn ‘Omar, from Salim, from Abu Basir, (It has been narrated) from Abu ‘Abdullah (Al-Sadiq), who said: “Whoever refuses to pay a carat of Zakat, let him choose to die as a Jew or a Christian (i.e. kafir).” [Al-Kafi vol. 3 – The Book Of Zakah ch. 2]

And what is the punishment for refusing to pay Zakah?

....from Sahl from ibn Shamun from Al-Asam from Malikk ibn ‘Utbah from Ibn Taghlub who said: “Abu Abdullah (i.e. Al-Sadiq) told me: “Allah has declared the blood of two types of people permissible to be shed in Islam, nobody must judge with regards to these two types until Allah sends our Qa’im (Shia Mahdi) from Ahl Al-Bayt, and when Allah sends him, he will judge with regards to these two types according to the ruling of Allah, without requiring any testimony, which is: The adulterer will be stoned and the one who refuses to pay the Zakah will get beheaded.” [Al-Kafi vol. 3 – The Book Of Zakah ch. 2]

The above narration can be found in many other primary and secondary Shia sources, such as:

1. Man La Yahduruhu Al-Faqih, vol. 2, p. 11
2. Wasa’il Al-Shia, vol.6, p. 19
3. Al-Mahasin, p. 87, in Kamal Al-Din, v. 2, p. 671
4. Al-Khisal, v. 1, p. 169
5. Raudah Al-Wa’idhin, v. 2, p. 356
6. Wasa’il Al-Shia, vol.6, p. 19
7. Basa’ir Al-Darajat, p. 170
8. Bihar Al-Anwar, vol. 52, p. 309

I'm not here to surprise you since that is out of the question because I'm dealing with someone who has a mindset and is absolutely and completely blind due to that mindset. Not to worry a lot of people are like that. They just live by what they have been told and taught as they have been raised and brought up.

Everyone starts off with a mindset but as we become older, mature and wiser it is down to us if we wish to continue with that mindset or develope an open mind and start looking at things with a broader perspective.

I'm not here to surprise you or challenge you. I'm here to challenge what you say and put forward since I consider it to be wrong and false either based on misunderstanding or misrepresentation. You say and speak as though you are attacking my faith and belief. And it is my duty to challenge what is wrong and false.

Lets talk about Yazeed first and then we will address the situation of Malik bin Nuwayrah.
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: iceman on June 21, 2018, 11:27:49 PM
Yazeed ibn Mu’aawiyah ibn Abi Sufyaan ibn Harb ibn Umayaah al-Umawi al-Dimashqi.

Al-Dhahabi said: he was the commander of that army during the campaign against Constantinople, among which were people such as Abu Ayyoob al-Ansaari. Yazeed was appointed by his father as his heir, so he took power after his father died in Rajab 60 AH at the age of thirty-three, but his reign lasted for less than four years.

Yazeed is one of those whom we neither curse nor love. There are others like him among the khaleefahs of the two states (Umawi/Umayyad and ‘Abbaasi/Abbasid) and the governors of various regions, indeed there were some among them who were worse than him. But the issue in the case of Yazeed is that he was came to power forty-nine years after the death of the Prophet SAWS (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him); it was still close to the time of the Prophet and some of the Sahaabah were still alive such as Ibn ‘Umar who was more entitled to the position than him or his father or his grandfather.

His reign began with the killing of the martyr al-Husayn and it ended with the battle of al-Harrah, so the people hated him and he was not blessed with a long life. There were many revolts against him after al-Husayn, such as the people of Madeenah who revolted for the sake of Allaah, and Ibn al-Zubayr.

(Siyar A’laam al-Nubalaa’, part 4, p. 38)
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: iceman on June 21, 2018, 11:38:22 PM
The Ulema of Ahl’ul Sunnah deemed it permissible to curse Yazeed

The Fiqh Imams deemed cursing Yazeed to be an act of worship

Ibn Khalikan in Wafayaath page 412 whilst discussing the biography of the Shafi’i scholar Abu Hassan bin ‘Ali bin Muhammad bin ‘Ali al Tabari al Amadadeen al Maroof al Bakeeya al Iraas al Shafeeya, states that:

“He (the above) was once asked ‘Can Yazeed who was born during the Khilafat of Hadhrath Umar be counted as a Companion, and what have the Salaf elders said in relation to cursing him?

He replied, ‘There are two statements of Imam Ahmad ibn Hanbal on this; one is an indication (that you can), the other direct (both that you can). These two views were also given by Imam Malik and by Imam ‘Abu Hanifa. We (those who follow imam Shafi’is fatwas) have only one fatwa in this regard, that it is permissible to curse Yazeed, he should be cursed since he used to play chess, would hunt with Cheetahs and drank alcohol”.
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: iceman on June 21, 2018, 11:44:23 PM
Allamah Taftazani said Yazeed was worthy of more than just cursing

We read in Sharh Muqassad:

“The harms that were inflicted on the Ahl’ul bayt after the Sahaba are acts that cannot be covered up. These acts were so heinous that they cannot be hidden – all including animals testify to their suffering. Their pain was such that the earth and skies shed tears and beat themselves when their suffering is retold –

and retelling this shall continue until the Day of Judgement. May Allah’s curse be upon those that perpetuated injustices, and those that helped them (to carry out these acts). The curse on these individuals shall be even greater in the next world. If some Ulema are opposed to cursing, then it should be known that Yazeed deserves more than just cursing”.

Allamah Baghdadi’s Fatwa – Yazeed denied the Prophethood, to curse him is an act of Ibadath

We read in Tafseer Ruh al Ma’ani page 72 commentary of Surah Muhammad:

“The wicked Yazeed failed to testify to the Prophethood of Hadhrath Muhammad (s). He also perpetrated acts against the residents of Makka, Medina and the family of the Prophet (s). He indulged in these acts against them during their lives and after their deaths. These acts are so conclusively proven that had he placed the Qur’an in his hands it would have testified to his kuffar. His being a fasiq and fajir did not go unnoticed by the Ulema of Islam, but the Salaf had no choice but to remain silent as they were living under threat.

If we for arguments sake accept that Yazeed was a Muslim who lapsed and committed wrongs, one should know that a man of the rank of Alusi deemed it permissible to curse him by name as he [Yazeed] was a living example of atrocious acts and it is a well-known fact that he never sought forgiveness for killing the family of the Prophet (s) and other acts.

The claim that he asked for forgiveness is even weaker than the claim that he possessed iman. When cursing him the names of Ibn Ziyad and Umar bin Sa’d should also be added, may Allah’s curse be on them all�. curse till the Day of Judgement, until then our eyes shall shed tears for Husayn’s suffering.

If someone does not wish to curse by name through fear [that they might be wrong, such as Ghazali], then he should say ‘May God’s curse be upon those that were pleased at Husayn’s killing, those that subjected sufferings on the family of the Prophet, who usurped their rights – when making such a curse Yazeed’s name comes to the top of the list.
No one can oppose this method of cursing save Ibn Arabi and his like minded supporters and this is major misguidance on their part – it is worse that the misguidance of Yazeed”.

Taftazani, a mainstream Sunni scholar, is reprimanding certain Sufi elements for taking one of their principles too far – that harbouring feelings of hatred to someone impairs progress on the spiritual path, which is not the case when cursing Yazeed as it falls into the realm of forbidding evil. Some Sufis reconcile this as they all accept Husayn (as) as possessed of great spiritual munificence by ‘distancing’ themselves from Yazeed. Others curse Yazeed.

It is important to note that Sufi Sheikhs are not usually experts on the religious traditions (Hadith), law or history, whatever their spiritual standing might be. This is not denied by any Sufis except fanatical devotees. In this realm the four Sunni imams supersede, all of whom said it was permissible to curse Yazeed.
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: iceman on June 21, 2018, 11:50:50 PM
The Shaafi Ulema deem it permissible to curse Yazeed

We should point out that Ghazzali was an adherent of the Shaafi madhab. Another Shaafi scholar Allamah Alusi set out the viewpoint of the Shaafi Ulema on this topic as follows:

Amongst the Shaafi’s we are in agreement that it is permissible to curse Yazeed”
Haseeya Nabraas page 551

When a renowned Shaafi scholar has taken the responsibility to reflect the opinion of the Shaafi Ulema, confirming that they deemed it permissible to curse Yazeed, then the opposite voice of Imam Ghazzali’s fatwa becomes batil (false).

We have cited actual Sunni texts wherein the supreme Sunni scholars of all time deemed it permissible to curse Yazeed. Azam Tariq seeks solace in the fatwa of al Ghazzali. Now whose fatwa bears greater value, the sole fatwa of Ibn Ghazzali or the fatwas of all the Sunni Ulama that we cited? Why should this single Ghazzali fatwa be deemed to be strong and conclusive enough to nullify the fatwas of all these Sunni Ulema?

Would the more correct approach not to be to reject Ghazzali’s fatwa and give greater credence to these Salaf Ulema who had an ijma (consensus) that it was permissible to curse Yazeed? Why are the Salafi and Deobandi seeking to create doubts over matter that has attained broad consensus by the Sunni Ulema? In reality by quoting Ghazzali they are trying to divide the Sufis, who they are well-known to despise. Our du’a is that Allah (swt) guide these advocates of Yazeed to disown and hate Yazeed and to develop faith and love for the family of the Prophet (s).
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: iceman on June 21, 2018, 11:54:09 PM
Al Suyuti personally cursed Yazeed

In Tareekh ul Khulafa page 208, Dhikr Shahadath Husayn we read as follows:

“Allah’s curse be opon all three Ibn Ziyad, Yazeed and the killer of Imam Hussain”

Tareekh ul Khulafa (Urdu) page 208, published by Nafees Academy Karachi

Qadhi Thanaullah Panee Pathee deemed it permissible to curse the kaafir Yazeed

We read in Tafseer Mazhari Volume 5 page 21, under the commentary of Surah Ibrahim verse 28 as follows:

“The Banu Umayya were initially kaafir, then some of them presented themselves as Muslim. Yazeed then became a kaafir. The Banu Umayya maintained their enmity towards the family of the Prophet, and killed Husayn in a cruel manner. The kaafir Yazeed committed kufr in relation to the Deen of Muhammad proven by the fact that at the time of the killing of Husayn he made a pointed reference to avenging the deaths of his kaafir ancestors slain in Badr. He acted against the family of Muhammad (s), Banu Hashim and in his drunken state he praised the Banu Umayya and cursed the Banu Hashim from the pulpit”.

Yazeed’s actions that mean that he turned to apostasy is within itself grounds for deeming him to be cursed.

The Fatwa of Imam Ahmad that Yazeed has been cursed in the Qur’an

We also read in Tafeer Mazhari as follows:

“Qadhi Abu Ya’ala in his own book al Muthamud al Usul that Saleh Ibn Hanbal asked his father Ahmad: ‘Some people state, ‘We are the friends of Yazeed’. Abu Hanifa replied ‘If people have faith in Allah, then it is unlikely that they also have faith in Yazeed, and why should they for this is a man that has been cursed in the Qur’an. I asked ‘Where is Yazeed cursed in the Qur’an?’ He replied “Have fear� when spread Fitnah through the land – these are people that Allah has cursed” – can there be a greater fitnah that killing Husayn?'”

The Fatwa of Ibn Jauzi – Hadith can testify to the fact that Yazeed can be cursed

In Tadhkira Khawaas Ibn Jauzi al Hanafi states

“If someone states that the Prophet of Allah had blessed those that partook in the conquest of Caesar’s city, then we will reply by pointing out that the Prophet of Allah (s) said whoever frightens Medina is cursed. This incorporates Yazeed and abrogates the first hadith”.
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: muslim720 on June 22, 2018, 04:31:45 PM
I'm not here to surprise you since that is out of the question because I'm dealing with someone who has a mindset and is absolutely and completely blind due to that mindset.

While I did not expect anything better, we will see who is blinded by a certain mindset.

Quote
I'm here to challenge what you say and put forward since I consider it to be wrong and false either based on misunderstanding or misrepresentation.

Very good!  However, from past experiences, if my memory serves me right, you are the one to (almost) come to the point and then dance around it (as we will see in your next statement).

Quote
Lets talk about Yazeed first and then we will address the situation of Malik bin Nuwayrah.

...and this is what I was talking about!  Yazeed, lanatullah alayh!  May Allah's (swt) curse be upon Yazeed.  You could have just asked me and I'd have saved you from all that cut-paste.  Now that we have addressed Yazeed, you have the following points to account for:

1.  Prove that Yazeed intended to change the Shariah.

2.  Prove that Malik bin Nuwayrah was a believer despite Al-Kafi's narrations saying that those who withhold Zakah should be killed.
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: iceman on June 22, 2018, 04:38:55 PM
While I did not expect anything better, we will see who is blinded by a certain mindset.

Very good!  However, from past experiences, if my memory serves me right, you are the one to (almost) come to the point and then dance around it (as we will see in your next statement).

...and this is what I was talking about!  Yazeed, lanatullah alayh!  May Allah's (swt) curse be upon Yazeed.  You could have just asked me and I'd have saved you from all that cut-paste.  Now that we have addressed Yazeed, you have the following points to account for:

1.  Prove that Yazeed intended to change the Shariah.

2.  Prove that Malik bin Nuwayrah was a believer despite Al-Kafi's narrations saying that those who withhold Zakah should be killed.

Lets not beat around the bush and leave the dancing out of it. Have you got enough proof that it's not just the Shias but also vast majority of the Ahle Sunah who believe as such about Yazeed? The thread you've started and the subject you've raised is not just a challenge to the Shias but also to the vast majority of the Ahle Sunah as well. So you need to address it both to Shias as well as those Ahle Sunah who share the same concept and view.
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: iceman on June 22, 2018, 04:41:13 PM
What would you say about the following?

Yazid
Having seen Yazid’s perversities cited by prominent Sunni authorities, let us now look at the contents of the Traditions of the Prophet (S), as reported by the Sunni authorities

For our purposes today, we shall dwell upon only those Traditions reported in Sahih Bukhari. As known by the majority of the people, to the Sunnis as well as the Wahabis, this book is regarded as the most authentic, surpassed only by the Holy Quran. To them, Traditions from this book are most reliable, beyond any doubt!

In Tradition Number 180 on page 147 of Volume Nine, it is stated that: “Amr bin Yahya bin Said bin Amr bin Said said: ‘My grandfather narrated to me thus: I was in the company of Abu Hurayra and Marwan in the mosque of the Prophet (S) in Madina. Abu Hurayra then said: I heard the truthful and trusted by Allah (i.e. the Prophet (S)) saying, “The destruction of my followers will be through the hands of young men from Quraish.” Marwan retorted: ‘May the curse of Allah be on these youths.’ Abu Hurayra said: If I could, I would have named these youths, and their parentage.’ Accompanied by my grandfather, I went to Syria to meet the progeny of Marwan at the time when they were the rulers there. Whenever my grandfather saw that these rulers were young men, he would tell us: Probably, these are among them (those young men mentioned by the Prophet (S)), and we used to reply, saying, You know better than us’.”

Before quoting the explanations of the above mentioned Tradition, those working with the English version should note that it does not fully correspond with the original Arabic text. The translator has omitted the significant part of the Tradition, printed in italics above, in the English version -- advertently or inadvertently.

Nonetheless, in his book, Fat’hul Baari, on page 10 of Chapter Thirteen, Imam Ibn Hajar Al Asqalaani mentions a narration of Ibn Abi Shayba which says that: “Abu Hurayra used to go to the market saying: ‘O Lord! Do not let me live to the year 60 A. H. nor witness the reign of the youths.’” Having said this, Imam Ibn Hajar adds, “In these words there is an indication that the first youth to come to power was in the year 60 A. H., and indeed, this is what actually happened. Yazid bin Muawiya’s succession took place in that year, and he remained in power till his death in 64 A. H. He was succeeded by his son, Muawiya, who died after a few months.”

Therefore, according to Imam Ibn Hajar, among “the Quraish youths” prophesized by the Prophet (S) to be the ones through whose hands the destruction of his followers would be, and whom Abu Hurayra wished the Almighty to keep him away from in the year 60 A. H., was Yazid. Did the Prophet’s prediction prove wrong? Wasn’t the Prophet’s community led astray through the massacres of Karbalaa, Madina and Macca as expounded hitherto? Or were those who were killed there polytheists and not Muslims? Despite all these, do we still insist that Yazid was Amirul Mu’minin?

Remember: Abu Hurayra did not disclose the names and the parentage of the Quraishi youths, not because he did not know them, but because he feared that if he did so he would endanger his life. This becomes clear when we revert to Sahih Bukhari (Tradition Number 121 on page 89 of Volume One). Which says: Narrated by Abu Hurayra: I have memorised two kinds of knowledge from Allah’s Apostle (S) I have propagated one of them to you and if I propagated the second, then my pharynx (throat) would be cut (i.e. killed).’”

Commenting on this Tradition, on page 216 of Chapter One of Fat’hul Baari, Imam Ibn Hajar says: “Scholars believe that the knowledge that Abu Hurayra did not disclose, relates to the Tradition in which names, life-style and the times of the evil monarchs have been mentioned. Abu Hurayra used to make a tacit reference about some of them, but would never mention their real names, fearing for his own life. For instance, by seeking refuge in the Almighty from year 60 and from the reign of the youths, he was making a tacit reference to the kingship of Yazid bin Muawiya whose reign was in the year 60 A.H.”

However, Imam Ibn Hajar was not the only person to draw this conclusion. Shihaabuddin Ahmad Al Qastwalaani too comes out with a similar interpretation of these Traditions. Those who know Arabic may refer to page 374 of Chapter One, and pages 11-12 of Chapter Fifteen of Irshaadus Saari.

Abu Hurayra, therefore, did not name Yazid, not because he did not know it, but because he was afraid that if he did so, his life would be in danger. In other words, he observed taqiyya (dissimulation)!

Was Abu Hurayra alone in practising taqiyya or others, too, observe it?
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: muslim720 on June 23, 2018, 01:30:16 AM
Have you got enough proof that it's not just the Shias but also vast majority of the Ahle Sunah who believe as such about Yazeed?

A day does not go by in the lives of Shias without the mention of Yazeed, Muawiyah, Saudi Arabia, Abdul Wahab, etc.  However, please pretend you are intelligent and try to follow the point I'm trying to make and then offer your rebuttal.

Without worrying about the authenticity of all the reports you have shared, I agree with you that Yazeed should be, and is, condemned.  For a bigger crime - withholding Zakah and asking for others to do the same - I also condemn Malik bin Nuwayrah.  While Yazeed violated the Shariah, Malik sought to change it because he (Malik) argued that Zakah was no longer obligatory since the Prophet (saw) had passed away.  The Ahlus Sunnah Wal Jama'ah, therefore, condemn both. 

My question to you, and Shias in general, is this: why do you condemn Yazeed but not Malik?  Why is Yazeed "la'anatullah alayh" while Malik is "radhiAllahu anhu" when Malik blatantly opposed, disobeyed and sought to change the Shariah?  Why is Malik "radhiAllahu anhu", according to Shias, when Kulayni reports (in Al-Kafi) that those who deliberately choose not to pay Zakah are apostates and must be killed?

If you ignore my questions and fail to directly address the points, I will request the moderators to delete all your psychobabble diarrhea.

Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: iceman on June 23, 2018, 08:40:54 AM
A day does not go by in the lives of Shias without the mention of Yazeed, Muawiyah, Saudi Arabia, Abdul Wahab, etc.  However, please pretend you are intelligent and try to follow the point I'm trying to make and then offer your rebuttal.

Without worrying about the authenticity of all the reports you have shared, I agree with you that Yazeed should be, and is, condemned.  For a bigger crime - withholding Zakah and asking for others to do the same - I also condemn Malik bin Nuwayrah.  While Yazeed violated the Shariah, Malik sought to change it because he (Malik) argued that Zakah was no longer obligatory since the Prophet (saw) had passed away.  The Ahlus Sunnah Wal Jama'ah, therefore, condemn both. 

My question to you, and Shias in general, is this: why do you condemn Yazeed but not Malik?  Why is Yazeed "la'anatullah alayh" while Malik is "radhiAllahu anhu" when Malik blatantly opposed, disobeyed and sought to change the Shariah?  Why is Malik "radhiAllahu anhu", according to Shias, when Kulayni reports (in Al-Kafi) that those who deliberately choose not to pay Zakah are apostates and must be killed?

If you ignore my questions and fail to directly address the points, I will request the moderators to delete all your psychobabble diarrhea.

"A day does not go by in the lives of Shias without the mention of Yazeed, Muawiyah, Saudi Arabia, Abdul Wahab, etc.  However, please pretend you are intelligent and try to follow the point I'm trying to make and then offer your rebuttal"

😊 You need to take a look at yourself, the lives of certain people have become dependent on undermining the Shias and their belief at all costs. Certain people have become so desperate that accusing and attacking the Shias and their belief has become a habbit or regular part of their life just as worship. But lets leave it to that.

The majority of the Muslims believe that Hussain'sstance and sacrifice saved Islam. Now the minority of the Muslims, along with you, believe otherwise. The minority want the majority to explain themselves? No problem.
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: zaid_ibn_ali on June 23, 2018, 09:45:46 AM
"A day does not go by in the lives of Shias without the mention of Yazeed, Muawiyah, Saudi Arabia, Abdul Wahab, etc.  However, please pretend you are intelligent and try to follow the point I'm trying to make and then offer your rebuttal"

😊 You need to take a look at yourself, the lives of certain people have become dependent on undermining the Shias and their belief at all costs. Certain people have become so desperate that accusing and attacking the Shias and their belief has become a habbit or regular part of their life just as worship. But lets leave it to that.

The majority of the Muslims believe that Hussain'sstance and sacrifice saved Islam. Now the minority of the Muslims, along with you, believe otherwise. The minority want the majority to explain themselves? No problem.

Please quote classical sunni scholars who said ‘hussain saved Islam’.

Believing Hussain died as a martyr & that it was a symbolic brave martydrom is not the same as saying he saved Islam.

Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: iceman on June 23, 2018, 10:00:32 AM
Please quote classical sunni scholars who said ‘hussain saved Islam’.

Believing Hussain died as a martyr & that it was a symbolic brave martydrom is not the same as saying he saved Islam.

First this needs to be acknowledged that this is not a Sunni Shia issue or a difference between Sunnis and Shia thought. It's a view of majority of the Muslims against minority. Let me first deal with the case of Malik bin Nuwayrah which is so desperately asked for.
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: iceman on June 23, 2018, 11:13:38 AM
A day does not go by in the lives of Shias without the mention of Yazeed, Muawiyah, Saudi Arabia, Abdul Wahab, etc.  However, please pretend you are intelligent and try to follow the point I'm trying to make and then offer your rebuttal.

Without worrying about the authenticity of all the reports you have shared, I agree with you that Yazeed should be, and is, condemned.  For a bigger crime - withholding Zakah and asking for others to do the same - I also condemn Malik bin Nuwayrah.  While Yazeed violated the Shariah, Malik sought to change it because he (Malik) argued that Zakah was no longer obligatory since the Prophet (saw) had passed away.  The Ahlus Sunnah Wal Jama'ah, therefore, condemn both. 

My question to you, and Shias in general, is this: why do you condemn Yazeed but not Malik?  Why is Yazeed "la'anatullah alayh" while Malik is "radhiAllahu anhu" when Malik blatantly opposed, disobeyed and sought to change the Shariah?  Why is Malik "radhiAllahu anhu", according to Shias, when Kulayni reports (in Al-Kafi) that those who deliberately choose not to pay Zakah are apostates and must be killed?

If you ignore my questions and fail to directly address the points, I will request the moderators to delete all your psychobabble diarrhea.

"My question to you, and Shias in general, is this: why do you condemn Yazeed but not Malik?  Why is Yazeed "la'anatullah alayh" while Malik is "radhiAllahu anhu" when Malik blatantly opposed, disobeyed and sought to change the Shariah?  Why is Malik "radhiAllahu anhu", according to Shias, when Kulayni reports (in Al-Kafi) that those who deliberately choose not to pay Zakah are apostates and must be killed?"

You should only ask us this question if we considered the case of Yazeed and Malik to be of a similar nature, when you clearly know that we don't. Our view concerning the case of Malik is different. Allow me to explain.

First of all why on earth would a Companion of the Prophet s.a.w, (Malik bin Nuwayrah) who also happened to be a tax collector, all of a sudden and out of the blue deny the giving of Zakat and reject that it's got anything to do with Islam. This is something that is absolutely and completely clear. It's like shooting yourself in the foot intentionally and knowingly.

This is our perspective that during the Prophet's pbuh time certain companions were given the role of tax collectors. Their duty and job was to collect the money of Zakat given by people of their tribe/clan/area/town and were given the authority to use that money according to their initiative where they deemed necessary within their community.

Will continue.
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: iceman on June 23, 2018, 12:49:31 PM
After the Messenger's pbuh death things dramatically took a different turn. Just to cut a long story short Abu Bakr became Caliph and a new authority was established. This authority had their own ideas and ways of doing things. The current system of where the tax collectors had the right to decide where and how the money should be spent was scrapped and these tax collectors were ordered to hand the money over to the new establishment and from now onwards they will decide on how and where the money will be distributed and spent.

The tax collectors were not happy with this decision and deemed it necessary that things should remain the same and the curtent system should left as the Prophet pbuh left it since there were no concerns or complaints regarding the current system. This was Malik bin Nuwayrah's approach and concern and this is what he campaigned for. But the Caliph had his own idea and claimed that the Messenger pbuh dead and now he is incharge.

It was a political dispute based on change of policy and that is all. The Caliph used force were necessary to get people to comply. Use of force and heavy handed tactics have been the approach of certain rulers and administrations. Another point one needs to keep in mind is that you don't  PAY Zakah but in fact you GIVE Zakah. It is something that you give and is not something that is taken. And if you don't hand it over then there are severe consequences. Lets say that if someone doesn't pray or fast or give Zakah then are you Wajib Ul Qatal? Or do you become Wajib Ul Qatal? Do you face the death penalty?
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: iceman on June 23, 2018, 12:55:19 PM
Just going to do another copy and paste job. Lets hope I don't get slammed for this as well. Take a look at the following and I will discuss it later.

Volume 9, Book 84, Number 59 :
Narrated by Abu Huraira
When the Prophet died and Abu Bakr became his successor and some of the Arabs reverted to disbelief, 'Umar said, "O Abu Bakr! How can you fight these people although Allah's Apostle said, 'I have been ordered to fight the people till they say: 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah, 'and whoever said, 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah', Allah will save his property and his life from me, unless (he does something for which he receives legal punishment) justly, and his account will be with Allah?' "Abu Bakr said, "By Allah! I will fight whoever differentiates between prayers and Zakat as Zakat is the right to be taken from property (according to Allah's Orders). By Allah! If they refused to pay me even a kid they used to pay to Allah's Apostle, I would fight with them for withholding it." 'Umar said, "By Allah: It was nothing, but I noticed that Allah opened Abu Bakr's chest towards the decision to fight, therefore I realized that his decision was right."
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: zaid_ibn_ali on June 23, 2018, 01:16:37 PM
The prophet SAW didn’t just allow peoole to collect & do as they please in regards to zakat.
When a leader is chosen then you accept the decision or you rebel. Malik rebelled. He paid the price.
If khalid didn’t deal with him sterny then more people would have rebelled & there would of been total chaos.
Any nation if you don’t obey the law of the land you get punished.
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: iceman on June 23, 2018, 05:20:33 PM
The prophet SAW didn’t just allow peoole to collect & do as they please in regards to zakat.
When a leader is chosen then you accept the decision or you rebel. Malik rebelled. He paid the price.
If khalid didn’t deal with him sterny then more people would have rebelled & there would of been total chaos.
Any nation if you don’t obey the law of the land you get punished.

"The prophet SAW didn’t just allow peoole to collect & do as they please in regards to zakat"

Ok, what did he pbuh advise or do? You tell me. Surely there must have been some system in place.

"When a leader is chosen then you accept the decision or you rebel. Malik rebelled. He paid the price."

Ok, this is related to what you've said, what about those who rebelled against the 4th rightly guided Caliph? What exactly is your position on them? If you have a principal in place as such,

"When a leader is chosen then you accept the decision or you rebel"

then at least stick to it. It's not about pick and choose or twist and turn as it suits you.

"If khalid didn’t deal with him sterny then more people would have rebelled & there would of been total chaos"

I will comment on this.

"Any nation if you don’t obey the law of the land you get punished"

We're talking about Qur'an and Sunnah and that is the law of the land.

What is Zakah? It's something you GIVE out of your hard earned money. It's not something you pay. It's a benefit GIVEN by you and not a benefit TAKEN from you. It's not tax which ypu have to pay. It's compulsory by Allah just as fasting, praying etc. You are answerable to Allah and not to any ruler or man made law.
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: iceman on June 23, 2018, 05:27:50 PM
The alms are only for the Fuqara' (the poor), and Al-Masakin (the needy) and those employed to collect (the funds); and to attract the hearts of those who have been inclined (towards Islam); and to free the captives; and for those in debt; and for Allah's Cause, and for the wayfarer (a traveler who is cut off from everything); a duty imposed by Allah. And Allah is All-Knower, All-Wise." [Al-Quran 9:60]

Where does it say that Zakah is something you pay or give to a ruler and he decides what to do with it when Allah clearly mentions that Zakah is something you give from your hard earned money and who to give is clear in the Qur'an.

Zakat (also known as 'Zakah'), is the giving of a set amount of your wealth to charity. Muslims pay Zakat as an act of worship, and although it is sometimes compared to a tax, it isn't like taxes imposed by governments. Zakat is a spiritual duty, solely for the sake of Allah

The Qur’an mentions eight groups of people on who Zakat should be spent:

(Surat At-Tawbah 9:60)

The Fuqara’ (the poor)
Al-Maskin (the needy)
Aamileen (Zakat collector)
Muallafatul Quloob (poor and needy who recently converted to Islam)
Ar-Riqaab (slaves; Zakat can be used to purchase their freedom)
Ibnus-Sabeel: A stranded traveller in need of financial assistance.
Al Ghaarimeen: A debtor
Fi Sabeelillah: Those who are away from home in the path of Allah

Where does it say in the Qur'an that you pay Zakah to a ruler? Or where does it say that the ruler has the right to force people to pay Zakah to him and he decides what to do with the money and how and where it should be spent?
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: iceman on June 23, 2018, 05:52:23 PM
Maalik ibn Nuwayrah was known by the kunyah Abu Hanzalah; he was a poet and knight, one of the knights of Banu Yarboo’, and the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) employed him to collect the zakaah of his people.

The historical reports agree to some extent that Maalik ibn Nuwayrah was killed by some of the troops of Khaalid ibn al-Waleed, and that after that Khaalid married his wife Layla bint Sinaan.

As for the reason why Maalik ibn Nuwayrah was killed, and the circumstances surrounding this incident, the reports vary, but most of the earlier historians who recorded this incident, such as al-Waaqidi, Ibn Ishaaq, Wuthaymah, Sayf ibn ‘Umar, Ibn Sa’d, Khaleefah ibn Khayyaat and others, state that Maalik ibn Nuwayrah refused to pay zakaah and withheld the zakaah camels, and he prevented his people from paying it, which led Khaalid to kill him, without paying any attention to his claim that he was Muslim and prayed regularly.

Ibn Salaam said in Tabaqaat Fuhool al-Shu’ara’ (172):
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: zaid_ibn_ali on June 23, 2018, 06:28:48 PM
Ali when caliph wrote to Malik Ashtar: “If taxpayers complain to you about heavy incidence of taxation, of any accidental calamity, of vagaries of monsoon, of scarcity and stoppage of the means of irrigation, of floods or destruction of their crops on account of excessive rainfall and if their complaints are true then reduce their taxes. “.

Nahjul Balagha op.cit., p. 502

Clearly the people had no choice. They were allowed a reduced amount but it still had to be paid.

Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: zaid_ibn_ali on June 23, 2018, 07:17:02 PM
Al-Khoie: “The person designated with the collection of Zakaha is the either the Mahdi or his representative.” [Ayatollah Al-Khoie,Al-Mustanad fi sharh Al-‘Urwah Al-Wuthqa, p. 13, chapter of Zakah].

So even your own top scholars say the Imam or his representative is in charge of collecting zakat.
Abu Bakr was the leader, Khalid his representative.
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: iceman on June 23, 2018, 09:12:43 PM
Al-Khoie: “The person designated with the collection of Zakaha is the either the Mahdi or his representative.” [Ayatollah Al-Khoie,Al-Mustanad fi sharh Al-‘Urwah Al-Wuthqa, p. 13, chapter of Zakah].

So even your own top scholars say the Imam or his representative is in charge of collecting zakat.
Abu Bakr was the leader, Khalid his representative.

And what does the Qur'an say about Zakah? What you've given me is references from books. Explain and justify it from the Qur'an.
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: iceman on June 23, 2018, 09:14:12 PM
The prophet SAW didn’t just allow peoole to collect & do as they please in regards to zakat.
When a leader is chosen then you accept the decision or you rebel. Malik rebelled. He paid the price.
If khalid didn’t deal with him sterny then more people would have rebelled & there would of been total chaos.
Any nation if you don’t obey the law of the land you get punished.

Justify this from the Qur'an. Only then we have something.
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: zaid_ibn_ali on June 23, 2018, 10:41:09 PM
Oh now you’re a Quran only guy.
Well thats too bad as there’s no mention of 12 Imams in there.
So nice try...
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: muslim720 on June 23, 2018, 11:01:19 PM
The majority of the Muslims believe that Hussain'sstance and sacrifice saved Islam.

As said earlier by brother Zaid, quote me someone with authority who has said the same.  I'll cut your work out for you.  You have copy-pasted a number of alleged quotes from Al-Islam.org from various scholars.  Go through those quotes and show me where one scholar worth the name said that Imam Hussain (ra) saved Islam.


Quote
First this needs to be acknowledged that this is not a Sunni Shia issue or a difference between Sunnis and Shia thought. It's a view of majority of the Muslims against minority. Let me first deal with the case of Malik bin Nuwayrah which is so desperately asked for.

Two days ago, you wanted to deal with the case of Yazeed, first.  Why do you twitch out of control like a fish pulled out of water?  The point you keep dodging is that your praise for Imam Hussain (ra), for "saving Islam", knows no bounds while at the same time, you beseech Allah (swt) to be pleased with Malik who clearly said that Zakah was due to the Prophet (saw) and after the Prophet's (saw) passing away, paying of Zakah was nullified.


Quote
First of all why on earth would a Companion of the Prophet s.a.w, (Malik bin Nuwayrah) who also happened to be a tax collector, all of a sudden and out of the blue deny the giving of Zakat and reject that it's got anything to do with Islam. This is something that is absolutely and completely clear. It's like shooting yourself in the foot intentionally and knowingly.

Adopting Ammar Nakshawani's opinion, I hope you are not trying to allude to the nonsensical, fabricated and baseless argument that "Malik stopped paying Zakah because he deemed Abu Bakr's Caliphate to be illegitimate".  Brother Adnan Rashid, in his video response, pressed Ammar Nakshawani on this issue and demanded for authentic proof.  Similar to the 12th Imam, the proof (for this absurd claim) is nowhere to be seen.


The rest of your nonsense has been refuted by brother Zaid.
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: iceman on June 24, 2018, 05:46:29 AM
Oh now you’re a Quran only guy.
Well thats too bad as there’s no mention of 12 Imams in there.
So nice try...

We're not talking about the 12 Imams. Don't you like sticking to the subject?

"Oh now you’re a Quran only guy"

Please do remind yourself of the above every time you ask the same.

So any proof from the Qur'an since we're talking about Zakah?
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: iceman on June 24, 2018, 06:36:23 AM
As said earlier by brother Zaid, quote me someone with authority who has said the same.  I'll cut your work out for you.  You have copy-pasted a number of alleged quotes from Al-Islam.org from various scholars.  Go through those quotes and show me where one scholar worth the name said that Imam Hussain (ra) saved Islam.


Two days ago, you wanted to deal with the case of Yazeed, first.  Why do you twitch out of control like a fish pulled out of water?  The point you keep dodging is that your praise for Imam Hussain (ra), for "saving Islam", knows no bounds while at the same time, you beseech Allah (swt) to be pleased with Malik who clearly said that Zakah was due to the Prophet (saw) and after the Prophet's (saw) passing away, paying of Zakah was nullified.


Adopting Ammar Nakshawani's opinion, I hope you are not trying to allude to the nonsensical, fabricated and baseless argument that "Malik stopped paying Zakah because he deemed Abu Bakr's Caliphate to be illegitimate".  Brother Adnan Rashid, in his video response, pressed Ammar Nakshawani on this issue and demanded for authentic proof.  Similar to the 12th Imam, the proof (for this absurd claim) is nowhere to be seen.


The rest of your nonsense has been refuted by brother Zaid.

"You have copy-pasted a number of alleged quotes from Al-Islam.org from various scholars"

I've also done the same from Sunni sites but you haven't dared touch that. So I don't know why you just comment on only what suits you. The quotes I put forward from Al-Islam.org, I asked you what your opinion was about them, And THAT IS ALL. But you have seemed to make a huge fuss about it. Trying to gain lost credibility?
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: iceman on June 24, 2018, 07:28:21 AM
"Go through those quotes and show me where one scholar worth the name said that Imam Hussain (ra) saved Islam"

No problem. BUT, There are principles, rules and regulations when it comes to discussions, debates and arguments. We also have reality and facts. Let me explain, if you put forward and issue which Shias believed in only and you questioned that (such as Mu'tah for instance) then I'm on it. Whether you accept or reject what I say and put forward is a different matter.

But if you put forward and issue and label it as a Shia only opinion and thought where I see it as a majority Muslim opinion and thought then that is a totally separate matter. You have mentioned this as a Shia only opinion where I have instantly pointed out to you that this is actually an opinion of the majority of the Muslims. I have also put forward various quotes from Sunni sites which I didn't need to because it's a known, open and common fact that it is the view of majority of the Muslims. Only a minority disagree and think otherwise.

So first of all what do you want? People to start dancing to your tune when ever you feel like it.
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: iceman on June 24, 2018, 07:34:45 AM
This is the headline of your thread;

"Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam"

My first and instant point and response was,

Is this a Shia only opinion? I believe it isn't. Majority of the Muslims believe this, Shias as well as Sunnis. Can you address this first if you're not too hesitant?
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: iceman on June 24, 2018, 09:45:41 AM
This is what you also said;

"Having established the background, let us now introduce the case of Malik bin Nuwayrah.  Known for actually violating the Islamic injunction of Zakat, Malik sought to do away with Zakat through his logic and actions.  In other words, Malik adopted a different view or belief towards Zakat and urged others to do the same (which was to stop paying the Zakat).  So why is it that Shias (rightfully) condemn Yazeed for violating the Shariah but type "radhiAllahu anhu" after they make mention of Malik bin Nuwayrah, a man whose intent to change the Shariah has been well-established?"

Isn't it weird that the protectors and the defenders of the Sahaba and the believers that 'once a Sahaba always a Sahaba' accuse such a noble companion of such a ridiculous crime. So who actually accuses and abuses the Sahaba? It most certainly isn't us here. A Sahabi accused by Sunnis of becoming apostate? Can you prove the case of Malik bin Nuwayrah? I mean it's just your opinion but based on what? Because he was in dispute with Abu bakr? It seems like that was his only crime.

Zakah is obligatory on every Muslim but what is Zakah? It's something you give but to who? The needy and the vulnerable. Allah has outlined it and I have already mentioned it in detail. Zakah is something you give voluntarily and it's down to you.

Prove to me from the Qur'an that after Muhammad s.a.w any ruler has the right to take Zakah from people even by the use of force? I'm not asking for too much, am I?
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: zaid_ibn_ali on June 24, 2018, 11:21:33 AM
This is the headline of your thread;

"Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam"

My first and instant point and response was,

Is this a Shia only opinion? I believe it isn't. Majority of the Muslims believe this, Shias as well as Sunnis. Can you address this first if you're not too hesitant?

You say the majority of muslims believe he SAVED Islam. Yet not one quote from a notable muslim who is isn’t shia saying he SAVED Islam.
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: zaid_ibn_ali on June 24, 2018, 11:25:02 AM
This is what you also said;

"Having established the background, let us now introduce the case of Malik bin Nuwayrah.  Known for actually violating the Islamic injunction of Zakat, Malik sought to do away with Zakat through his logic and actions.  In other words, Malik adopted a different view or belief towards Zakat and urged others to do the same (which was to stop paying the Zakat).  So why is it that Shias (rightfully) condemn Yazeed for violating the Shariah but type "radhiAllahu anhu" after they make mention of Malik bin Nuwayrah, a man whose intent to change the Shariah has been well-established?"

Isn't it weird that the protectors and the defenders of the Sahaba and the believers that 'once a Sahaba always a Sahaba' accuse such a noble companion of such a ridiculous crime. So who actually accuses and abuses the Sahaba? It most certainly isn't us here. A Sahabi accused by Sunnis of becoming apostate? Can you prove the case of Malik bin Nuwayrah? I mean it's just your opinion but based on what? Because he was in dispute with Abu bakr? It seems like that was his only crime.

Zakah is obligatory on every Muslim but what is Zakah? It's something you give but to who? The needy and the vulnerable. Allah has outlined it and I have already mentioned it in detail. Zakah is something you give voluntarily and it's down to you.

Prove to me from the Qur'an that after Muhammad s.a.w any ruler has the right to take Zakah from people even by the use of force? I'm not asking for too much, am I?

Ali & the other infallibles know the true Quran only remember. Not me or you. I’ve proven from your sources he did it & that the 12th Imam will do it too.😆
So go ask the 12th Imam. Or ask Ali as he can hear you as well remember😉
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: iceman on June 24, 2018, 11:35:23 AM
You say the majority of muslims believe he SAVED Islam. Yet not one quote from a notable muslim who is isn’t shia saying he SAVED Islam.

What do you mean by NOTABLE MUSLIM? who doesn't happen to be a Shia?
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: zaid_ibn_ali on June 24, 2018, 11:42:51 AM
What do you mean by NOTABLE MUSLIM? who doesn't happen to be a Shia?

You said the majority of muslims. The majority are sunni. So quote us these famous sunni scholars who said Hussain SAVED ISLAM.
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: iceman on June 24, 2018, 11:46:09 AM
You said the majority of muslims. The majority are sunni. So quote us these famous sunni scholars who said Hussain SAVED ISLAM.

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://m.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DiNwjQmOSnsA&ved=0ahUKEwix6czNjezbAhXGCsAKHYxeAGcQtwIIHzAB&usg=AOvVaw35c0mYu3BMMzqOoOoUwTad
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: iceman on June 24, 2018, 11:47:55 AM
You said the majority of muslims. The majority are sunni. So quote us these famous sunni scholars who said Hussain SAVED ISLAM.

Is every Sunni Scholar acceptable or are we looking for your selected and desired? By the way are you a Scholar? If no then what's your opinion on this and who and where do you take your opinion from?
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: zaid_ibn_ali on June 24, 2018, 11:55:04 AM
Replying with 3 consecutive questions, your post should be deleted🤦🏽‍♂️

You’re really struggling to show us these sunni scholars aren’t you. Come on, the list can’t be that laughable can it? Thats even if there’s one name on the list😂
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: iceman on June 24, 2018, 12:50:43 PM
Replying with 3 consecutive questions, your post should be deleted🤦🏽‍♂️

You’re really struggling to show us these sunni scholars aren’t you. Come on, the list can’t be that laughable can it? Thats even if there’s one name on the list😂

That's fine. Pick one question and have the nerve to answer it.
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: iceman on June 24, 2018, 12:51:19 PM
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://m.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DyrhNlHOEPQE&ved=0ahUKEwjo2KTcnOzbAhUIDMAKHTxuDZMQtwIIWDAN&usg=AOvVaw35CxEYnKAYDDo3V2CkpFGf
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: iceman on June 24, 2018, 01:55:47 PM
Replying with 3 consecutive questions, your post should be deleted🤦🏽‍♂️

You’re really struggling to show us these sunni scholars aren’t you. Come on, the list can’t be that laughable can it? Thats even if there’s one name on the list😂

Either you have a problem understanding or you're just illiterate or may be both. I said that majority of the Sunnis as well as the Shias hold the view that Hussain's sacrifice saved Islam. Both communities believe this and commemorate the martyrdom of Hussain and his followers. Only a minority of the Sunnis believe otherwise. Now how difficult this is let me tell you. If you believe otherwise then you shouldn't have any problem what so ever of putting forward fatwas and statements of Sunni Scholars who believe otherwise. This is how difficult it is 😀
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: zaid_ibn_ali on June 24, 2018, 04:00:58 PM
46 posts later & you still haven’t put up any quotes from any sunni scholar who said Hussain SAVED ISLAM.
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: Mythbuster1 on June 24, 2018, 04:45:35 PM
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://m.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DyrhNlHOEPQE&ved=0ahUKEwjo2KTcnOzbAhUIDMAKHTxuDZMQtwIIWDAN&usg=AOvVaw35CxEYnKAYDDo3V2CkpFGf

To be honest tareq Jamal isn’t no big scholar he just does speeches or bayans don’t know where he gets his info from as he never uses evidences especially stories of the earlier prophet as.....I used to listen to him before on cassette tapes before he come on the scene, he is not very famous apart from Pakistan and the Urdu speaking people no other Muslims know him or will ever understand him as he doesn’t do speeches in any other language as well as English or Arabic so it’s not good to use some unknown guy.

As for the posted YouTube link it is 118 mins long as far as I could watch it I never came across him saying that Hussein ra saved islam, I may have missed it but I ain’t got the energy to go through that again as he keeps blowing his nose and it’s not nice to watch.......best way would be if you could point out at which minute he refers to Hussein ra saving Islam I don’t think there are many Urdu speakers on this forum.
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: iceman on June 25, 2018, 08:08:44 AM
46 posts later & you still haven’t put up any quotes from any sunni scholar who said Hussain SAVED ISLAM.

I've already posted this link but here it is again.

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://m.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DiNwjQmOSnsA&ved=0ahUKEwj--KDAne7bAhVsC8AKHUatBScQtwIIHzAB&usg=AOvVaw35c0mYu3BMMzqOoOoUwTad

This is Dr Allama Tahir Ul Qadri, a very well known/popular/famous Ahle Sunah scholar. It's in Urdu. I'll see if I can find any English clip. He also mentions what I copy and pasted from Al-Islam.org about Abu Hurayra. But lets leave that on one side.
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: iceman on June 25, 2018, 08:10:37 AM
To be honest tareq Jamal isn’t no big scholar he just does speeches or bayans don’t know where he gets his info from as he never uses evidences especially stories of the earlier prophet as.....I used to listen to him before on cassette tapes before he come on the scene, he is not very famous apart from Pakistan and the Urdu speaking people no other Muslims know him or will ever understand him as he doesn’t do speeches in any other language as well as English or Arabic so it’s not good to use some unknown guy.

As for the posted YouTube link it is 118 mins long as far as I could watch it I never came across him saying that Hussein ra saved islam, I may have missed it but I ain’t got the energy to go through that again as he keeps blowing his nose and it’s not nice to watch.......best way would be if you could point out at which minute he refers to Hussein ra saving Islam I don’t think there are many Urdu speakers on this forum.

😊 Yep, no problem.
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: zaid_ibn_ali on June 25, 2018, 01:30:56 PM
I've already posted this link but here it is again.

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://m.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DiNwjQmOSnsA&ved=0ahUKEwj--KDAne7bAhVsC8AKHUatBScQtwIIHzAB&usg=AOvVaw35c0mYu3BMMzqOoOoUwTad

This is Dr Allama Tahir Ul Qadri, a very well known/popular/famous Ahle Sunah scholar. It's in Urdu. I'll see if I can find any English clip. He also mentions what I copy and pasted from Al-Islam.org about Abu Hurayra. But lets leave that on one side.

Al Husayn’s (may Allah be pleased with him) martydrom was 1400 years ago.
So you find two spurious present day characters from pakistan (one who is a dodgy politician) as proof that the MAJORITY of muslims agree he SAVED ISLAM?

The majority of the muslim world haven’t even heard of the two guys you posted.

By now we can draw the conclusion that your statement that the majority of muslims believe Husayn saved Islam is actually incorrect. The shias believe this, not the majority of muslims i.e sunni.


Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: Mythbuster1 on June 25, 2018, 03:04:30 PM
I've already posted this link but here it is again.

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://m.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DiNwjQmOSnsA&ved=0ahUKEwj--KDAne7bAhVsC8AKHUatBScQtwIIHzAB&usg=AOvVaw35c0mYu3BMMzqOoOoUwTad

This is Dr Allama Tahir Ul Qadri, a very well known/popular/famous Ahle Sunah scholar. It's in Urdu. I'll see if I can find any English clip. He also mentions what I copy and pasted from Al-Islam.org about Abu Hurayra. But lets leave that on one side.

Same again you are making a mountain out of a molehill.......Tahir uk Qadri is only well known in Pakistan although he has travelled here and there he is living hiding in canada and has no real following in Pakistan either.
He did try a middle eastern style revolution backed my mqm terrorists but even they backed off on the day of the march and only a few thousand turned up believing he would have millions of followers.

Like a brother said you are using 2 unknowns who are limited to South Asia as your proofs??

That doesn’t really help you at all.
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: muslim720 on June 26, 2018, 02:14:39 AM
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://m.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DyrhNlHOEPQE&ved=0ahUKEwjo2KTcnOzbAhUIDMAKHTxuDZMQtwIIWDAN&usg=AOvVaw35CxEYnKAYDDo3V2CkpFGf

He said, "deen ki hifaazat, hum kehte hai, ki Hussain (ra) ne ki".  In other words, Dr. Qadri is saying that Imam Hussain (ra) protected or defended the religion.  He clearly states, "hum kehte hai", meaning, we say it (that Imam Hussain protected or defended the religion) but he gives no direct quote.  Again, Imam Hussain (ra) defended and fought for Islam, no doubt.  My question is this: why do you uphold his sacrifice while also praising someone (Malik bin Nuwayrah) who intended to damage one of the pillars of Islam, namely Zakah?  If Islam matters to you then anyone who opposes it or tries to damage it must be condemned whether it be Yazeed or Malik.  And if Islam matters to you then anyone who defends or protects it must be praised whether it be Imam Hussain (ra) or Abu Bakr (ra).
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: iceman on June 27, 2018, 01:40:14 PM
Al Husayn’s (may Allah be pleased with him) martydrom was 1400 years ago.
So you find two spurious present day characters from pakistan (one who is a dodgy politician) as proof that the MAJORITY of muslims agree he SAVED ISLAM?

The majority of the muslim world haven’t even heard of the two guys you posted.

By now we can draw the conclusion that your statement that the majority of muslims believe Husayn saved Islam is actually incorrect. The shias believe this, not the majority of muslims i.e sunni.

"Al Husayn’s (may Allah be pleased with him) martydrom was 1400 years ago.
So you find two spurious present day characters from pakistan (one who is a dodgy politician) as proof that the MAJORITY of muslims agree he SAVED ISLAM?"

I'm not going to say "I was hoping you would say that" I was 100% sure you would say something like that. Everything or everyone we put forward you seem to belittle, you undermine.

"We don't accept this or that, this is not reliable, that is not authentic, he is either influenced by Shiaism or we don't recognise him etc etc and etc"

That's all that I seem to be getting from your side.

Now who are exactly you? I mean this site, the admins/mods and a few side kicks/cheer leaders and the ones who fund. Are you going to tell me that a handful of unknown individuals like you represent the entire Ahle Sunah community globally. You speak for the entire Ahle Sunah and on their behalf. Man no one even recognises you. Never mind about that, no one even approves you.

I come from a mixed community as well as family and friends (Ahle Sunah as well as Ahle Tasheyu). The references I'm going to give you are from my community. Or are Ahle Sunah just limited and restricted to your will, wish and desire. What do you want, me to go to every single Ahle Sunah mosque and get a written statement for you.

"Just two" I have a life, responsibility and commitments, outside this. I don't know, your life mind depend on just this but not mine. There are plenty of other things which are much more important than just dealing with this.

Be patient or show some patience. And one at a time rather than jumping on me like a pack. I have an open mind and I like a balanced argument. I'm not like others having a mindset based on what I'm told and then just stick to it and not bother with the other side of the story or argument. And I will prove this.
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: iceman on June 27, 2018, 02:12:21 PM
Lets move on and please refrain from being and getting personal.

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://m.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DhLKIyfC08qc&ved=0ahUKEwjahNr79PPbAhUHElAKHdvPBSsQtwIIPjAK&usg=AOvVaw1V3NACtMtfGAKkrf3YIwsn

The clip above is something I came across. Very interesting analysis. There are some things I agree but some I also disagree with the above.

Below is another Ahle Sunah scholar

https://youtu.be/vNGeMFQ9khw

Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: iceman on June 27, 2018, 02:21:08 PM
He said, "deen ki hifaazat, hum kehte hai, ki Hussain (ra) ne ki".  In other words, Dr. Qadri is saying that Imam Hussain (ra) protected or defended the religion.  He clearly states, "hum kehte hai", meaning, we say it (that Imam Hussain protected or defended the religion) but he gives no direct quote.  Again, Imam Hussain (ra) defended and fought for Islam, no doubt.  My question is this: why do you uphold his sacrifice while also praising someone (Malik bin Nuwayrah) who intended to damage one of the pillars of Islam, namely Zakah?  If Islam matters to you then anyone who opposes it or tries to damage it must be condemned whether it be Yazeed or Malik.  And if Islam matters to you then anyone who defends or protects it must be praised whether it be Imam Hussain (ra) or Abu Bakr (ra).

One thing at a time then one step at a time. We shall come to this inshallah.
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: iceman on June 27, 2018, 02:25:57 PM
Same again you are making a mountain out of a molehill.......Tahir uk Qadri is only well known in Pakistan although he has travelled here and there he is living hiding in canada and has no real following in Pakistan either.
He did try a middle eastern style revolution backed my mqm terrorists but even they backed off on the day of the march and only a few thousand turned up believing he would have millions of followers.

Like a brother said you are using 2 unknowns who are limited to South Asia as your proofs??

That doesn’t really help you at all.

Who exactly is ALLAMA TAHIR UL QADRI.

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_Tahir-ul-Qadri&ved=2ahUKEwi02PGT-fPbAhVBbVAKHTahDyIQFjANegQIABAB&usg=AOvVaw0uS7zvs7_lD2JUT8sgUFU0

And his work and achievements.

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minhaj-ul-Quran&ved=2ahUKEwiW2YmP-PPbAhUMJlAKHXdoBTEQFjAOegQIABAB&usg=AOvVaw1YMhHH7PFNGhZyT5dxxIt
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: muslim720 on June 27, 2018, 05:00:51 PM
One thing at a time then one step at a time. We shall come to this inshallah.

None of this "one step at a time" and "we shall come to this" BS.  Answer the question or just say that your standards are in line with your desires, not reality.
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: Mythbuster1 on June 27, 2018, 05:05:25 PM
Who exactly is ALLAMA TAHIR UL QADRI.

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_Tahir-ul-Qadri&ved=2ahUKEwi02PGT-fPbAhVBbVAKHTahDyIQFjANegQIABAB&usg=AOvVaw0uS7zvs7_lD2JUT8sgUFU0

And his work and achievements.

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minhaj-ul-Quran&ved=2ahUKEwiW2YmP-PPbAhUMJlAKHXdoBTEQFjAOegQIABAB&usg=AOvVaw1YMhHH7PFNGhZyT5dxxIt


You haven’t a clue have you.........barelwi mass scholars don’t side with him and your using a runaway self made sheikh ul islam, don’t bother sending me google I know the people who work for Minhaj ul Quran, half the stuff he says many barelwi don’t accept of him and that’s just pakistan......this is Sheer desperation from your part.

Wiki lol

The rise of Dr Tahirul Qadri also took place during the Zia regime. Dr Qadri was the Imam of Lahore’s Ittefaq Mosque owned by the Sharifs at that time. Dr Qadri took Nawaz Sharif to Maulana Noorani’s estranged friend Haji Hanif Tayyab in Karachi to form a Barelvi alliance in the 1980s. Later, Dr Qadri and Nawaz Sharif developed differences and today they are poles apart. Both Dr Qadri and Nawaz Sharif started their politics with the help of Barelvis, but now have their own political following which include Barelvis and others as well.
One day he is for blasphemy law then the next he is not, he is an opportunist and I also from a mixed community too together with ahle tashayu too they mix in well with us I know your kind well my friend. Stop using nobody’s who have no influence on religion in Pakistan. The guy is a runaway living in Canada what kind of sheikh is he? He is into politics as stated above and was recently with pti Imran khan and now has his own pat party.....Do think about it!

He said he was bringing millions to support him on his rally.......only thousands turned up, that alone shows you he has not much influence as a scholar in Pakistan.

He is supported by MQM.....you do know who they are don’t ya? They are the anti Pakistan political group again with their troll leader sat in London.......khadim rizvi had more impact who is a stanch barelwi than Tahir-ul-Qadri who did his dharna together with Imran Khan, even Imran khan doesn’t want to know him, hence he doesn’t return much to Pakistan no more.......again he is not known anywhere apart from India/Pakistan and pak army propbably helped him out too to be honest barelwi in India can’t stand him.

Don’t give me wiki please I am from Pakistan and you can’t use an opportunist in politics as a sheikh......infact who gave him that title?

Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: Mythbuster1 on June 27, 2018, 05:16:01 PM
Lets move on and please refrain from being and getting personal.

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://m.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DhLKIyfC08qc&ved=0ahUKEwjahNr79PPbAhUHElAKHdvPBSsQtwIIPjAK&usg=AOvVaw1V3NACtMtfGAKkrf3YIwsn

The clip above is something I came across. Very interesting analysis. There are some things I agree but some I also disagree with the above.

Below is another Ahle Sunah scholar

https://youtu.be/vNGeMFQ9khw



I know and met imam Asim I live in the same city as him too, I’ve prayed at his masjid a few times.

Lol imam Asim in the second vid at 16.20 Mark says imam Hussein ra asked for 3 things........so it wasn’t much about He ra saved islam then, for He would have gone if yazeed agreed.

Do you even watch these vids? If He was to save islam then why ask for 3 things?

When you post vids do please tell us at what minutes they say stuff which you are referring to please, it’s like your just forwarding stuff you haven’t even checked yourself.

Again he is no big scholar or is well known in Islamic world he also has limited knowledge of Arabic like most like Dr Qadri, these are local mullahs my friend......you are really in desperation mode.

Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: iceman on June 27, 2018, 05:22:47 PM
None of this "one step at a time" and "we shall come to this" BS.  Answer the question or just say that your standards are in line with your desires, not reality.

Your questions have a very simple and straightforward answer. Do we believe Malik bin Nuwayrah refused to accept that Zakah was obligatory and was part of the Islamic faith, the answer is a very big, huge, massive and gigantic NOOOO.

If we did believe in what you accuse Malik of and we shared the same concept and view and then we remained silent on this, only then you can question us regarding our silence. Ma brother do think before you question. You don't do that. This is why you end up being embarrassed and then you become bitter and attack.

This is nothing personal between me or us and you. It's just a discussion. Something happened in history where you either look at it with an open mind considering reality and facts or you're a Abu Bakr bin Kuafah and Khalid bin Waleed loyalist and that's how you're going to see things as.
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: iceman on June 27, 2018, 06:45:22 PM
I know and met imam Asim I live in the same city as him too, I’ve prayed at his masjid a few times.

Lol imam Asim in the second vid at 16.20 Mark says imam Hussein ra asked for 3 things........so it wasn’t much about He ra saved islam then, for He would have gone if yazeed agreed.

Do you even watch these vids? If He was to save islam then why ask for 3 things?

When you post vids do please tell us at what minutes they say stuff which you are referring to please, it’s like your just forwarding stuff you haven’t even checked yourself.

Again he is no big scholar or is well known in Islamic world he also has limited knowledge of Arabic like most like Dr Qadri, these are local mullahs my friend......you are really in desperation mode.

😊 And you're speaking based on what. And I'm just suppose to take your word for it, yes. Where are you guys even coming from. You decide on which scholar is of what level and category, you decide on what is authentic/reliable and what isn't. And who exactly are you and which level of scholary do you see yourself as. Don't just pick and choose from the videos what suits you, it's all there in front of you. If you still want me to go right till the very end with you then for argumental reasons and just to silence you that will be fine.
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: Mythbuster1 on June 27, 2018, 07:37:34 PM
😊 And you're speaking based on what. And I'm just suppose to take your word for it, yes. Where are you guys even coming from. You decide on which scholar is of what level and category, you decide on what is authentic/reliable and what isn't. And who exactly are you and which level of scholary do you see yourself as. Don't just pick and choose from the videos what suits you, it's all there in front of you. If you still want me to go right till the very end with you then for argumental reasons and just to silence you that will be fine.

Why are you getting hot under the collar?
You bring videos and expect the non Urdu speaking people to search for something then you post another video of someone whom I know bro imam  Asim who clearly states Hussain ra ASKED for 3 things and he will return breaking your saved islam theory to shreds.

Again you haven’t a clue hence with your answers above......we need evidence and solid proofs, I deal with your kind all day long and they never bring anything of any value, I don’t think you know what you are talking about half of the time and push videos and articles down our throats instead of looking at the yourself.

Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: muslim720 on June 28, 2018, 01:17:25 AM
Your questions have a very simple and straightforward answer. Do we believe Malik bin Nuwayrah refused to accept that Zakah was obligatory and was part of the Islamic faith, the answer is a very big, huge, massive and gigantic NOOOO.

Malik bin Nuwayrah refused to pay Zakah for the reason that he deemed Zakah to be invalid after the passing away of the Prophet (saw).  And you are forgetting that there were many tribes that declared their apostasy (by refusing to pay Zakah), not just Banu Tamim so this was a widespread problem.

I have already proven to you (through reports in Al-Kafi) that refusal to pay Zakah is tantamount to apostasy the punishment for which is death.  Another brother established the fact that Zakah is due to the leader.  Yet, you are out to defend an apostate (Malik) without any evidence.  We are not surprised, believe me! 

There is a reason why I posted this topic; to prove the Shi'i insincerity of standing by the one who "saved Islam".  You are going against the words of your own Imam (ra) who said that withholding Zakah is kufr and punishable by death to protect an apostate (Malik).

Quote
If we did believe in what you accuse Malik of and we shared the same concept and view and then we remained silent on this, only then you can question us regarding our silence. Ma brother do think before you question. You don't do that. This is why you end up being embarrassed and then you become bitter and attack.

The nerve on you.....to say that I embarrass myself.  Coming from the POS who, among many blunders in the same post, tried to cite "Al-Sawa'iq Al-Muhriqah" (a book written to refute Shiaism) to substantiate Shiaism.

Quote
This is nothing personal between me or us and you. It's just a discussion. Something happened in history where you either look at it with an open mind considering reality and facts or you're a Abu Bakr bin Kuafah and Khalid bin Waleed loyalist and that's how you're going to see things as.

Zakah is not contingent upon what happened.  It is also free of your "open mind".  You pay Zakah or you are an apostate punishable by death.  That is the ruling of your own Imam (ra).  The reports from Al-Kafi are absolute not conditional so keep swimming in your own verbal diarrhea.
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: iceman on June 28, 2018, 06:03:22 PM
Why are you getting hot under the collar?
You bring videos and expect the non Urdu speaking people to search for something then you post another video of someone whom I know bro imam  Asim who clearly states Hussain ra ASKED for 3 things and he will return breaking your saved islam theory to shreds.

Again you haven’t a clue hence with your answers above......we need evidence and solid proofs, I deal with your kind all day long and they never bring anything of any value, I don’t think you know what you are talking about half of the time and push videos and articles down our throats instead of looking at the yourself.

I'm cool as ice cream despite its summer time 😊 Well get them translated, or am I suppose to do everything for you to the last bit. You asked for a Scholar and I gave you a well known, recognised and educated Scholar. It seems to me this has upset you. Ahle Sunah Wal Jama'ah don't just speak one language and that is just your language 😊

You talk about Imam Asim, he cleary states in the video that Hussain does say to his followers who were with him that if you want to leave by all means you can. Hussain further says that there issue is with him and they want his oath of allegiance or his blood.

Now what response do the family, friends and followers of Hussain give, they respond by saying that they will stay and  remain by his side and defend him AND ISLAM. If I heard it clear, which I believe I did, that is exactly what Imam Asim said. They will defend Hussain AND ISLAM!

What was the reason for Hussain not to give oath of allegiance to Yazeed. I mean this is exactly what the problem was. Why did Hussain absolutely refuse to give allegiance. Lets cut the nonsense of you having a dig at me and start from here.

NOW IT'S YOUR CALL
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: iceman on June 28, 2018, 06:24:15 PM
Malik bin Nuwayrah refused to pay Zakah for the reason that he deemed Zakah to be invalid after the passing away of the Prophet (saw).  And you are forgetting that there were many tribes that declared their apostasy (by refusing to pay Zakah), not just Banu Tamim so this was a widespread problem.

I have already proven to you (through reports in Al-Kafi) that refusal to pay Zakah is tantamount to apostasy the punishment for which is death.  Another brother established the fact that Zakah is due to the leader.  Yet, you are out to defend an apostate (Malik) without any evidence.  We are not surprised, believe me! 

There is a reason why I posted this topic; to prove the Shi'i insincerity of standing by the one who "saved Islam".  You are going against the words of your own Imam (ra) who said that withholding Zakah is kufr and punishable by death to protect an apostate (Malik).

The nerve on you.....to say that I embarrass myself.  Coming from the POS who, among many blunders in the same post, tried to cite "Al-Sawa'iq Al-Muhriqah" (a book written to refute Shiaism) to substantiate Shiaism.

Zakah is not contingent upon what happened.  It is also free of your "open mind".  You pay Zakah or you are an apostate punishable by death.  That is the ruling of your own Imam (ra).  The reports from Al-Kafi are absolute not conditional so keep swimming in your own verbal diarrhea.

I'm going to keep it nice and short from now on. I just can't be bothered with your ranting and raving or having a dig at me now and then.

Prove to me from the QUR'AN that rulers after Muhammad s.a.w  (regardless of who that ruler may be) has the God given right to force people to give Zakah and hand of the Zakah money to the regime. And if people refuse to hand over the Zakah money to the regime in place then they are WAJIB UL QATAL Basically they face the death penalty.

Malik bin Nuwayrah prayed and did all the other things that were obligatory in Islam but denied that Zakah had nothing to do with Islam all of a sudden and out of the blue. Come on. This story was later on created by certain individuals just to protect Khalid bin Waleed and also Abu Bakr bin Kuafah. Otherwise if we speak the truth that Malik bin Nuwayrah only refused to hand over the Zakah money to the ruler just as other companions of the Prophet s.a.w and tribal leaders did then Abu Bakr's decision and Khalid's actions lead both into big trouble.

It was just only a political dispute. People were not happy with this new rule that was actually forced on them that they should all of a sudden hand over the Zakah money or else......... That was all. We should absolutely be ashamed of, all of a sudden, accusing a great companion such as Malik bin Nuwayrah of such a hideous and ridiculous crime.

Allah knows best and let the matter rest with him since this was a political dispute between noble companions from all sides.
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: iceman on June 28, 2018, 06:36:57 PM
Here's another Sunni Scholar in English, and a language you understand. Lets hope this puts the language excuse to rest.

https://youtu.be/hml0PhHjHEE

Now what did this Sunni Scholar say.

"Hussain was a lion of a man and with great courage he stood up against the CORRUPTION OF THE TRUE RELIGION"

I wonder what excuse we're going to come up with now.

Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: zaid_ibn_ali on June 28, 2018, 10:46:50 PM
Why are you quoting things like hussain defended Islam, etc?
We are asking you to quote famous sunni scholars who said hussain SAVED ISLAM.

You have failed to do that.

So Allah SWT perfected the religion (as stated in the Quran) through the final messenger muhammad SAW. So the religion was perfected.

But wait, according to you this was a waste as Islam was going down the gutter & Hussain 30 odd years later SAVED it (Islam).
What an insult!

Surely this is a blasphemous belief!
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: iceman on June 29, 2018, 12:08:27 AM
Why are you quoting things like hussain defended Islam, etc?
We are asking you to quote famous sunni scholars who said hussain SAVED ISLAM.

You have failed to do that.

So Allah SWT perfected the religion (as stated in the Quran) through the final messenger muhammad SAW. So the religion was perfected.

But wait, according to you this was a waste as Islam was going down the gutter & Hussain 30 odd years later SAVED it (Islam).
What an insult!

Surely this is a blasphemous belief!

"But wait, according to you this was a waste as Islam was going down the gutter & Hussain 30 odd years later SAVED it (Islam).
What an insult!"

Don't put words in my mouth. What was the reason for Hussain not to give allegiance to Yazeed. Can you answer this.

Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: zaid_ibn_ali on June 29, 2018, 12:41:20 AM
I don’t get why Islam needed saving. Yes there was a corrupt evil tyrant ruling. But that was the case during the time of later ‘infallible imams’ such as mohammad al baqir & jafar sadiq’s era which is considered the golden era for shia narrations.

Besides Islam was glorious still despite yazid as there were two infallible Imams Husayn & Ali Zayn Al Abideen😃😃😃. How can Islam need saving when the infallible guides are still amongst the people in an unbroken chain?😆😆
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: muslim720 on June 29, 2018, 12:46:07 AM
I'm going to keep it nice and short from now on. I just can't be bothered with your ranting and raving or having a dig at me now and then.

You chose to participate in this discussion.  No one forced you to be the spokesperson for all Shias.  It would be nothing short of a catastrophe upon a catastrophe if you are the representative of all Shias on this forum.

Quote
Prove to me from the QUR'AN that rulers after Muhammad s.a.w  (regardless of who that ruler may be) has the God given right to force people to give Zakah and hand of the Zakah money to the regime. And if people refuse to hand over the Zakah money to the regime in place then they are WAJIB UL QATAL Basically they face the death penalty.

The obligation to pay Zakah is a Qur'anic injunction so important that it is one of the five pillars of Islam.  When it comes to its details, as is the case with prayer, fasting, Hajj, etc, we look at Prophetic narrations.  In your case, your infallible Imams (ra) have declared the failure to pay Zakah to be a sure sign of apostasy and that such individuals must be killed.

By the way, as the other brother said, please do not pretend to be a Qur'anist now.  You cannot even prove Imamah, let alone the names of 12 Imams (ra), from the Qur'an.  Not to mention that collection of Zakah - although it is clear that Zakah is paid to the leader, as per Shi'i rulings - is not even part of the discussion except a distraction tactic by Shias.

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Malik bin Nuwayrah prayed and did all the other things that were obligatory in Islam but denied that Zakah had nothing to do with Islam all of a sudden and out of the blue. Come on.

Strawman!  Malik did not deny Zakah had anything to do with Islam.  Malik said that since the Prophet (saw) had passed away, no one was obligated to pay Zakah; that Zakah was to be abolished.

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This story was later on created by certain individuals just to protect Khalid bin Waleed and also Abu Bakr bin Kuafah.

For as many Shi'i scholars there are in the world, there is a different version of history.  Rest assured that is not the case with our school.  Name these "certain individuals" and provide evidence that can stand scrutiny.  Otherwise, this will be another check your mouth issued that your @$$ cannot cash.  You've issued many of these!

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Otherwise if we speak the truth that Malik bin Nuwayrah only refused to hand over the Zakah money to the ruler just as other companions of the Prophet s.a.w and tribal leaders did then Abu Bakr's decision and Khalid's actions lead both into big trouble.

You and truth are polar opposites!  My point still stands.  Your Imams (ra) made paying Zakah an unconditional obligation refusal of which is punishable by death.  There are no "ifs" and "buts" when it comes to paying Zakah.

In case you did not know, other tribes had also accepted false prophets.  If you wish to side with Malik, you might as well side with the other tribes who took false prophets and undermined the Qur'anic concept of Prophethood. 

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It was just only a political dispute. People were not happy with this new rule that was actually forced on them that they should all of a sudden hand over the Zakah money or else.........

I knew it; in fact, I even warned you not to tread down this path.  You are repeating the same lie that Ammar Nakshawani got called out for by brother Adnan Rashid.  Till date, Ammar has not produced any evidence for this nonsensical claim.  Therefore, I won't bother you to provide an authentic report for this idiotic claim because if Ammar could not substantiate it, you won't be able to substantiate it either.

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We should absolutely be ashamed of, all of a sudden, accusing a great companion such as Malik bin Nuwayrah of such a hideous and ridiculous crime.

You should be ashamed for beating yourself every year saying you would have fought alongside Imam Hussain (ra) to save Islam when you consider Malik a "great companion" who, according to your own Imams (ra), deserved the death penalty for refusing to pay Zakah.

Quote
Allah knows best and let the matter rest with him since this was a political dispute between noble companions from all sides.

Can you name these "noble companions from all sides"?
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: iceman on June 29, 2018, 12:51:36 AM
https://youtu.be/BsE12L_hn80
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: iceman on June 29, 2018, 12:55:05 AM
I don’t get why Islam needed saving. Yes there was a corrupt evil tyrant ruling. But that was the case during the time of later ‘infallible imams’ such as mohammad al baqir & jafar sadiq’s era which is considered the golden era for shia narrations.

Besides Islam was glorious still despite yazid as there were two infallible Imams Husayn & Ali Zayn Al Abideen😃😃😃. How can Islam need saving when the infallible guides are still amongst the people in an unbroken chain?😆😆

You're playing around. When you've finished playing around and with the happy faces do try to answer my question. Hussain refused to give allegiance to Yazeed at all costs but why.
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: iceman on June 29, 2018, 01:02:42 AM
"By the way, as the other brother said, please do not pretend to be a Qur'anist now.  You cannot even prove Imamah, let alone the names of 12 Imams (ra), from the Qur'an.  Not to mention that collection of Zakah - although it is clear that Zakah is paid to the leader, as per Shi'i rulings - is not even part of the discussion except a distraction tactic by Shias"

You want proof from the Qur'an and don't accept anything else. But when we ask you to prove something from the Qur'an you start running around in circles and then finally come up with an accusation 'please do not pretend to be a Qur'anist'   😊 WOW

If you can't prove what I've asked from the Qur'an then why are you accusing me of pretending. Is there no other way for you to hide your embarrassment. 😊

"You should be ashamed for beating yourself every year saying you would have fought alongside Imam Hussain (ra) to save Islam"

😊 I dont know how well you're going to take and digest this but here it comes, for your kind information I don't beat myself. Never have. 😊

"I knew it; in fact, I even warned you not to tread down this path.  You are repeating the same lie that Ammar Nakshawani got called out for by brother Adnan Rashid.  Till date, Ammar has not produced any evidence for this nonsensical claim.  Therefore, I won't bother you to provide an authentic report for this idiotic claim because if Ammar could not substantiate it, you won't be able to substantiate it either"

The nonsensical claim is actually  accusing a Companion of the Prophet s.a.w of such a hideous and ridiculous crime of becoming an apostate. This is exactly what is NONSENSICAL. Can you provide me evidence from any Shia Scholar or their book where they accuse Malik of becoming an apostate.

Prove to me from the Qur'an and justify a Muslim rulers action of forcing people to hand over Zakah money to them. Or if someone doesn’t pay Zakah then they're WAJIB UL QATAL.

Zakah is obligatory but you give Zakah and who you give Zakah to, those who are eligible I've already mentioned it. It's in the Qur'an. You give Zakah, it's obligatory and it's a benefit given voluntarily. Stop dancing around the facts.


Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: muslim720 on June 29, 2018, 01:36:45 AM
You want proof from the Qur'an and don't accept anything else. But when we ask you to prove something from the Qur'an you start running around in circles and then finally come up with an accusation 'please do not pretend to be a Qur'anist'   😊 WOW

Is Zakah mentioned in the Qur'an?  Yes!  How do we pay it?  Who do we pay it to?  The Prophet (saw) clarified those points and your Imams (ra) said that refusal to pay Zakah is tantamount to kufr and punishable by death.  That is running in circles; when you make circles around the Qur'an, the Prophet (saw) and your own "infallible" Imams (ra) just so you could say you were right (when you are actually supporting an apostate).

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If you can't prove what I've asked from the Qur'an then why are you accusing me of pretending. Is there no other way for you to hide your embarrassment. 😊

Why don't you prove to me from the Qur'an that Zakah is only rendered to "infallible Imams"?  You think you are smart but you are trying to straitjacket this discussion when you actually need to be placed in one (in reality).

Quote
😊 I dont know how well you're going to take and digest this but here it comes, for your kind information I don't beat myself. Never have. 😊

Till now, I attributed your retarded behavior to your damaged brain cells, courtesy of all the years of head slapping.  If that is not the case, were you dropped as a baby?

Quote
The nonsensical claim is actually  accusing a Companion of the Prophet s.a.w of such a hideous and ridiculous crime of becoming an apostate. This is exactly what is NONSENSICAL. Can you provide me evidence from any Shia Scholar or their book where they accuse Malik of becoming an apostate.

So again, no proof to back your claim.  As for proving Malik's apostasy to you, I already gave you the words of your own Imams (ra) recorded in Al-Kafi.  They made Zakah an obligation without any conditions.  You are disobeying your own "infallible" Imams (ra) and asking for scholarly proof.  Is it safe to assume that you consider your scholars above your "infallible" Imams (ra)?  lol, all this to save an apostate.

Quote
Prove to me from the Qur'an and justify a Muslim rulers action of forcing people to hand over Zakah money to them. Or if someone doesn’t pay Zakah then they're WAJIB UL QATAL.

I did better; I proved it to you through the rulings of your "infallible, Divinely Appointed" Imams (ra)!  You say their task was to guide people.  Then why don't you follow their guidance on this matter?

Yunus from ‘Ali ibn Abi Hamzah from Abu Basir on the authority of Abu ‘Abdillah (Al-Sadiq), who said: “We refuses to pay even a single ounce of the Zakah is not a believer nor a Muslim and this is the statement of Him (Allah), may He be glorified and exalted […].” [Al-Kafi vol. 3 – The Book Of Zakah ch. 2]

....from Sahl from ibn Shamun from Al-Asam from Malikk ibn ‘Utbah from Ibn Taghlub who said: “Abu Abdullah (i.e. Al-Sadiq) told me: “Allah has declared the blood of two types of people permissible to be shed in Islam, nobody must judge with regards to these two types until Allah sends our Qa’im (Shia Mahdi) from Ahl Al-Bayt, and when Allah sends him, he will judge with regards to these two types according to the ruling of Allah, without requiring any testimony, which is: The adulterer will be stoned and the one who refuses to pay the Zakah will get beheaded.” [Al-Kafi vol. 3 – The Book Of Zakah ch. 2]

Quote
Zakah is obligatory but you give Zakah and who you give Zakah to, those who are eligible I've already mentioned it. It's in the Qur'an. You give Zakah, it's obligatory and it's a benefit given voluntarily. Stop dancing around the facts.

Imam Ali (ra), when he was the Caliph, wrote to Malik Ashtar: "If taxpayers complain to you about heavy incidence of taxation, of any accidental calamity, of vagaries of monsoon, of scarcity and stoppage of the means of irrigation, of floods or destruction of their crops on account of excessive rainfall and if their complaints are true then reduce their taxes." (Nahjul Balagha)

Tax amount can be negotiated but it cannot be waived altogether.  And the leader can appoint anyone he wishes as a tax collector.

Now you can go and slip into something more comfortable like a coma!
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: iceman on June 29, 2018, 01:39:38 AM
"For as many Shi'i scholars there are in the world, there is a different version of history.  Rest assured that is not the case with our school.  Name these "certain individuals" and provide evidence that can stand scrutiny.  Otherwise, this will be another check your mouth issued that your @$$ cannot cash.  You've issued many of these!"

Those individuals are the ones who accuse Malik of this hideous crime. I'm not a Sunni so I don't believe in your tale concerning Malik. Either prove from Shia sources that Malik became an apostate or the other way I've already mentioned which you clearly can't explain. And here it is again 'prove from the Qur'an justifying a rulers decision to force people in paying Zakah directly to them'. Oh and here's another one, according to Sunnis once you become a Companion, a firm believer can a Companion turn apostate. Have fun in answering.
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: muslim720 on June 29, 2018, 01:50:46 AM
Those individuals are the ones who accuse Malik of this hideous crime. I'm not a Sunni so I don't believe in your tale concerning Malik. Either prove from Shia sources that Malik became an apostate or the other way I've already mentioned which you clearly can't explain.

We both agree that Malik refused to pay Zakah.  I know you place a condition around his refusal but your "infallible" Imams (ra) declared apostasy on those who refuse to pay Zakah, without any conditions.  And they asked for such individuals to be put to death.  I have already shared the reports from Al-Kafi more than once.

Quote
And here it is again 'prove from the Qur'an justifying a rulers decision to force people in paying Zakah directly to them'.

Prove from the Qur'an that Zakah is only rendered to "infallible Imams".  Time to put you in your own straitjacket.

Quote
Oh and here's another one, according to Sunnis once you become a Companion, a firm believer can a Companion turn apostate. Have fun in answering.

.....but according to your "infallible" Imams (ra), anyone who refuses to pay Zakah is an apostate and to be put to death.  While you don't know our position, please explain why are you disobeying your own "infallible" Imams (ra)?  Do you know the ruling on rejecting an Imam or his words in Shiaism?  Hahaha, you're tightening the noose around your own neck. 
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: zaid_ibn_ali on June 29, 2018, 10:47:40 AM
You're playing around. When you've finished playing around and with the happy faces do try to answer my question. Hussain refused to give allegiance to Yazeed at all costs but why.

The same reason Zayd ibn Ali & his sons & countless other members of ahle bayt refused to give allegience to the rulers of their time.
Same reason Abdullah ibn Zubayr refused to give allegience to Yazeed. Its a very emotional story. He & all the other Imams of ahle bayt saved Islam too?
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: Mythbuster1 on June 29, 2018, 03:49:00 PM
I'm cool as ice cream despite its summer time 😊 Well get them translated, or am I suppose to do everything for you to the last bit. You asked for a Scholar and I gave you a well known, recognised and educated Scholar. It seems to me this has upset you. Ahle Sunah Wal Jama'ah don't just speak one language and that is just your language 😊

You talk about Imam Asim, he cleary states in the video that Hussain does say to his followers who were with him that if you want to leave by all means you can. Hussain further says that there issue is with him and they want his oath of allegiance or his blood.

Now what response do the family, friends and followers of Hussain give, they respond by saying that they will stay and  remain by his side and defend him AND ISLAM. If I heard it clear, which I believe I did, that is exactly what Imam Asim said. They will defend Hussain AND ISLAM!

What was the reason for Hussain not to give oath of allegiance to Yazeed. I mean this is exactly what the problem was. Why did Hussain absolutely refuse to give allegiance. Lets cut the nonsense of you having a dig at me and start from here.

NOW IT'S YOUR CALL

What’s with the smiley faces? Can’t get your nonsensical point across?

Imam Asim ain’t no big scholar you know that and now you are stuck in your own rut, I know the guy he is just an imam in a masjid and does good on his own level mashallah.

He Asim said Hussein ra asked for three things and then he will go, what do you understand about that?
So if yazeed gave him any one if the three then what? Which Islam did he save? You definitely are in a rut here mate.
That proves that it was the Kufan Shiites who betrayed him and he was willing to return.

I didn’t hear it but THEY said they will defend Hussein ra and Islam ........did Hussein ra say it? You don’t think before you post do you?
Everyone else is saying it but the main imam hasn’t said it, you like clutching on straws don’t you.......then give us a solid proof imam Hussein ra said it.

BALLS IN YOUR COURT
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: iceman on June 29, 2018, 05:13:13 PM
We both agree that Malik refused to pay Zakah.  I know you place a condition around his refusal but your "infallible" Imams (ra) declared apostasy on those who refuse to pay Zakah, without any conditions.  And they asked for such individuals to be put to death.  I have already shared the reports from Al-Kafi more than once.

Prove from the Qur'an that Zakah is only rendered to "infallible Imams".  Time to put you in your own straitjacket.

.....but according to your "infallible" Imams (ra), anyone who refuses to pay Zakah is an apostate and to be put to death.  While you don't know our position, please explain why are you disobeying your own "infallible" Imams (ra)?  Do you know the ruling on rejecting an Imam or his words in Shiaism?  Hahaha, you're tightening the noose around your own neck.

"We both agree that Malik refused to pay Zakah.  I know you place a condition around his refusal but your "infallible" Imams (ra) declared apostasy on those who refuse to pay Zakah, without any conditions.  And they asked for such individuals to be put to death.  I have already shared the reports from Al-Kafi more than once"

No, there is are difference. You don't pay Zakah, as a matter of fact you GIVE ZAKAH. According to our belief the first Caliph brought in a new policy, he wanted all the people to pay Zakah to the newly found government. Others weren't happy with this new policy. That's the difference.

First we need to establish that do we GIVE ZAKAH or do we PAY ZAKAH. Lets discuss this in general and not make it personal. Can we do that. Can you do that. As far as Al Kafi is concerned, or any other book, there are a lot of things we don't accept or agree to. So why do we pick and choose what suits us. Discuss it in black and white. Prove to me from the Qur'an. That is the genuine source for me as well as you.

"Prove from the Qur'an that Zakah is only rendered to "infallible Imams".  Time to put you in your own straitjacket"

Once you've proven from the Qur'an what I've asked you or admit that it can't be proven from the Qur'an or tell me it's not necessary to be proven from the Qur'an and why then you can put me in which ever jacket you like. In the mean time the ball is still in your court. You need to serve.

I'm not rejecting or accepting anything, just asking you to prove a very important and fundamental matter from the Qur'an. Am I asking too much or something way beyond your ability.
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: iceman on June 29, 2018, 05:48:16 PM
I know and met imam Asim I live in the same city as him too, I’ve prayed at his masjid a few times.

Lol imam Asim in the second vid at 16.20 Mark says imam Hussein ra asked for 3 things........so it wasn’t much about He ra saved islam then, for He would have gone if yazeed agreed.

Do you even watch these vids? If He was to save islam then why ask for 3 things?

When you post vids do please tell us at what minutes they say stuff which you are referring to please, it’s like your just forwarding stuff you haven’t even checked yourself.

Again he is no big scholar or is well known in Islamic world he also has limited knowledge of Arabic like most like Dr Qadri, these are local mullahs my friend......you are really in desperation mode.

"I know and met imam Asim I live in the same city as him too, I’ve prayed at his masjid a few times"

Well then you shouldn't have any problem what so ever in putting the question straight to him. Ask him and see what he has to say. Make a footage while you're at it  and post it right here for all of us to see.😊
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: iceman on June 29, 2018, 08:03:38 PM
https://youtu.be/Jrx_Rq6uVkg
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: muslim720 on June 30, 2018, 04:47:12 AM
No, there is are difference. You don't pay Zakah, as a matter of fact you GIVE ZAKAH.

Semantics; no problem!  Who do you give Zakah to?

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According to our belief the first Caliph brought in a new policy, he wanted all the people to pay Zakah to the newly found government. Others weren't happy with this new policy. That's the difference.

New policy?  What new policy?  Malik was responsible for collection of Zakah and their dispatch to Madina.  Abu Bakr (ra) was going with status quo - that is, he expected Zakah to flow in just like it would prior to his Caliphate - until Malik declared "now you are the owner of your wealth" to his tribe and aligned with self-proclaimed prophetess Sajjah.

What will you say next?  May Allah be pleased with Sajjah, Musaylmah or Tulayha?

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First we need to establish that do we GIVE ZAKAH or do we PAY ZAKAH. Lets discuss this in general and not make it personal. Can we do that. Can you do that.

What....I won't even....all I can say is that you're a piece of crap.  Sometimes it becomes necessary for some people to have been swallowed at birth.  You are the leading candidate, as far as I'm concerned.

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As far as Al Kafi is concerned, or any other book, there are a lot of things we don't accept or agree to. So why do we pick and choose what suits us. Discuss it in black and white.

Very good!  You have proven yourself to be a kafir, according to Shi'i standards for rejecting your own Imams (ra).

I asked Imam Baqir (a.s.): I want to describe before you my religion through which I worship Allah. He said: Do describe. I submitted: I give witness that Allah is One and that Muhammad (S) is His messenger and I believe in all the things brought by the Holy Prophet (S) from the Almighty Allah and I also accept (believe) that Ali (a.s.) was the Imam whose obedience was made obligatory by Allah and that after him was Imam Hasan (a.s.) who was such Imam and thereafter Imam Husain (a.s.) whose obedience was made compulsory by Allah and that after him was Imam Ali bin Husain (a.s.) whose obedience was a must according to Divine Command and thereafter I described the names of all the subsequent Imams until I mentioned his name and said that I accept his Imamate as a must. He said: Yes, this is the religion of Allah and the religion of the angels of Allah. (https://www.al-islam.org/hayat-al-qulub-vol3-allamah-muhammad-baqir-al-majlisi/part-6-it-obligatory-obey-true-imams)

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Once you've proven from the Qur'an what I've asked you or admit that it can't be proven from the Qur'an or tell me it's not necessary to be proven from the Qur'an and why then you can put me in which ever jacket you like.

So you admit that it was a straitjacket tactic!  lol, that is all I wanted!

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You need to serve.

For the number of times you've been served, you should be the last one to ever employ that word.

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I'm not rejecting or accepting anything, just asking you to prove a very important and fundamental matter from the Qur'an. Am I asking too much or something way beyond your ability.

I am not rejecting or accepting anything, just asking you to prove a very important and fundamental matter from the Qur'an.  Am I asking too much or something way beyond your ability.  Give me your claim that Zakah is only rendered to "infallible Imams" from the Qur'an.
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: Hani on June 30, 2018, 06:41:22 AM
Bro Muslim720, are you in the US? I wonder if ur one of the many ppl I'm skyping with because I lost track.
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: iceman on June 30, 2018, 07:20:22 PM
Semantics; no problem!  Who do you give Zakah to?

New policy?  What new policy?  Malik was responsible for collection of Zakah and their dispatch to Madina.  Abu Bakr (ra) was going with status quo - that is, he expected Zakah to flow in just like it would prior to his Caliphate - until Malik declared "now you are the owner of your wealth" to his tribe and aligned with self-proclaimed prophetess Sajjah.

What will you say next?  May Allah be pleased with Sajjah, Musaylmah or Tulayha?

What....I won't even....all I can say is that you're a piece of crap.  Sometimes it becomes necessary for some people to have been swallowed at birth.  You are the leading candidate, as far as I'm concerned.

Very good!  You have proven yourself to be a kafir, according to Shi'i standards for rejecting your own Imams (ra).

I asked Imam Baqir (a.s.): I want to describe before you my religion through which I worship Allah. He said: Do describe. I submitted: I give witness that Allah is One and that Muhammad (S) is His messenger and I believe in all the things brought by the Holy Prophet (S) from the Almighty Allah and I also accept (believe) that Ali (a.s.) was the Imam whose obedience was made obligatory by Allah and that after him was Imam Hasan (a.s.) who was such Imam and thereafter Imam Husain (a.s.) whose obedience was made compulsory by Allah and that after him was Imam Ali bin Husain (a.s.) whose obedience was a must according to Divine Command and thereafter I described the names of all the subsequent Imams until I mentioned his name and said that I accept his Imamate as a must. He said: Yes, this is the religion of Allah and the religion of the angels of Allah. (https://www.al-islam.org/hayat-al-qulub-vol3-allamah-muhammad-baqir-al-majlisi/part-6-it-obligatory-obey-true-imams)

So you admit that it was a straitjacket tactic!  lol, that is all I wanted!

For the number of times you've been served, you should be the last one to ever employ that word.

I am not rejecting or accepting anything, just asking you to prove a very important and fundamental matter from the Qur'an.  Am I asking too much or something way beyond your ability.  Give me your claim that Zakah is only rendered to "infallible Imams" from the Qur'an.

"Semantics; no problem!  Who do you give Zakah to?"

I've already mentioned this in post #24. But here it is again just for you;

"The alms are only for the Fuqara' (the poor), and Al-Masakin (the needy) and those employed to collect (the funds); and to attract the hearts of those who have been inclined (towards Islam); and to free the captives; and for those in debt; and for Allah's Cause, and for the wayfarer (a traveler who is cut off from everything); a duty imposed by Allah. And Allah is All-Knower, All-Wise." [Al-Quran 9:60]"

Where does it say that Zakah is something you pay or give to a ruler and he decides what to do with it when Allah clearly mentions that Zakah is something you give from your hard earned money and who to give is clear in the Qur'an.

Zakat (also known as 'Zakah'), is the giving of a set amount of your wealth to charity. Muslims pay Zakat as an act of worship, and although it is sometimes compared to a tax, it isn't like taxes imposed by governments. Zakat is a spiritual duty, solely for the sake of Allah

The Qur’an mentions eight groups of people on who Zakat should be spent:

(Surat At-Tawbah 9:60)

The Fuqara’ (the poor)
Al-Maskin (the needy)
Aamileen (Zakat collector)
Muallafatul Quloob (poor and needy who recently converted to Islam)
Ar-Riqaab (slaves; Zakat can be used to purchase their freedom)
Ibnus-Sabeel: A stranded traveller in need of financial assistance.
Al Ghaarimeen: A debtor
Fi Sabeelillah: Those who are away from home in the path of Allah

Where does it say in the Qur'an that you pay Zakah to a ruler? Or where does it say that the ruler has the right to force people to pay Zakah to him and he decides what to do with the money and how and where it should be spent?

"Malik declared "now you are the owner of your wealth" to his tribe and aligned with self-proclaimed prophetess Sajjah."

I've said this before that we don't believe in this ridiculous accusation about Malik. Your question and claim is only valid if we shared this view with you and then banged on about Yazeed but were silent on Malik.

"Very good!  You have proven yourself to be a kafir, according to Shi'i standards for rejecting your own Imams (ra)."

KAFIR? I know your kind are quick at accusing. This is nothing new.

"(https://www.al-islam.org/hayat-al-qulub-vol3-allamah-muhammad-baqir-al-majlisi/part-6-it-obligatory-obey-true-imams)"

Look at the above you posted. When it comes to Islam.org It's OK for you to post/copy and paste but not for me 😊

"So you admit that it was a straitjacket tactic!  lol, that is all I wanted!"

You haven't answered or addressed my question or query. You're still dancing around it. Here it is again in case you've forgotten;

Where does it say that Zakah is something you pay or give to a ruler and he decides what to do with it when Allah clearly mentions that Zakah is something you give from your hard earned money and who to give is clear in the Qur'an.

Where does it say in the Qur'an that you pay Zakah to a ruler? Or where does it say that the ruler has the right to force people to pay Zakah to him and he decides what to do with the money and how and where it should be spent?

Once you've answered or addressed this then please do go ahead with any jacket. The balls still sitting in your court.

"I am not rejecting or accepting anything, just asking you to prove a very important and fundamental matter from the Qur'an.  Am I asking too much or something way beyond your ability.  Give me your claim that Zakah is only rendered to "infallible Imams" from the Qur'an."

By all means. I asked and put it to you first. Once you've stopped dancing around and either answered the Question or addressed the matter or at least have the decency to put your hands up then I'm all yours. Remember, if you're asked a question or asked to address something then you do that rather than running away from it and throwing one back in return without answering or addressing just to save your skin.
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: muslim720 on July 01, 2018, 05:46:09 AM
I've already mentioned this in post #24. But here it is again just for you;

Really?  Let us see!

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"The alms are only for the Fuqara' (the poor), and Al-Masakin (the needy) and those employed to collect (the funds); and to attract the hearts of those who have been inclined (towards Islam); and to free the captives; and for those in debt; and for Allah's Cause, and for the wayfarer (a traveler who is cut off from everything); a duty imposed by Allah. And Allah is All-Knower, All-Wise." [Al-Quran 9:60]"

Copied from: https://www.islamichelp.org.uk/zakat/

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Where does it say that Zakah is something you pay or give to a ruler and he decides what to do with it when Allah clearly mentions that Zakah is something you give from your hard earned money and who to give is clear in the Qur'an.

The other day you were barking that Zakat is given, not paid.  Well, read these excerpts:

"Zakat as we Shia calculate is payable on 9 items only".  Payable, not given!

"The Qur’an, while ordering us to pay zakat, has not outlined the items on which zakat is applicable."  According to Shi'i sources, Qur'an order us to pay, not give, Zakat.

“Your master is only Allah, His Messenger, and those who believe: those who establish the prayer and pay the zakat while they are in ruku‘.” (5:55)  Your "Verse of Wilayah" debunked you, lol!

https://www.al-islam.org/articles/zakat-shia-fiqh-sayyid-muhammad-rizvi

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Zakat (also known as 'Zakah'), is the giving of a set amount of your wealth to charity. Muslims pay Zakat as an act of worship, and although it is sometimes compared to a tax, it isn't like taxes imposed by governments. Zakat is a spiritual duty, solely for the sake of Allah

Copied from: http://hadithoftheday.com/what-is-zakat/

On the same webpage, the article clarifies what they mean by "it isn't like taxes imposed by governments".  It lists the misconceptions regarding Zakat and states that Zakat is not "A tax.  Tax is requirement of secular (non-religious) law."  In other words, they are differentiating Zakat from the secular, non-religious tax.

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The Qur’an mentions eight groups of people on who Zakat should be spent:

(Surat At-Tawbah 9:60)

The Fuqara’ (the poor)
Al-Maskin (the needy)
Aamileen (Zakat collector)
Muallafatul Quloob (poor and needy who recently converted to Islam)
Ar-Riqaab (slaves; Zakat can be used to purchase their freedom)
Ibnus-Sabeel: A stranded traveller in need of financial assistance.
Al Ghaarimeen: A debtor
Fi Sabeelillah: Those who are away from home in the path of Allah

Copied from: https://www.islamichelp.org.uk/zakat/

These are 8 groups upon whom Zakat should be spent.  Spending on these 8 categories does not mean that one is forbidden from entrusting Zakat to an organization or to the leader of Muslims or to an appointed Zakat collector.  The organization, leader of Muslims or the appointed Zakat collector spends on these 8 categories of people after Zakat is entrusted to them.

You were in such a hurry to copy-paste that you failed to see the third category, "aamileen", meaning the "Zakat collector".  We know that the Zakat collectors can spend it on those categories of people but would you care to tell us who they collect on behalf of?  You shot yourself in the foot!

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Where does it say in the Qur'an that you pay Zakah to a ruler? 

The word "pay" occurs in Surah Al-Ma'idah verse 55.

As for where it says to pay to someone, your own copy-paste was a shot to your foot.  Surah Taubah verse 60 says, "The alms are only for the poor and the needy, and those who collect them, and those whose hearts are to be reconciled, and to free the captives and the debtors, and for the cause of Allah, and (for) the wayfarer; a duty imposed by Allah. Allah is Knower, Wise."

The Qur'an establishes the concept of people being tasked with collecting Zakat.  Hence, if there are those who collect Zakat, they can only do so if they are in authority.  And you can only be an authoritative person if you are the ruler or if the ruler has assigned you the task (of collecting the Zakat).

Thank you for copy-pasting from Islamichelp.org.uk.  Your own copy-paste (which you didn't provide a link for) helped me meet your challenge.

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I've said this before that we don't believe in this ridiculous accusation about Malik. Your question and claim is only valid if we shared this view with you and then banged on about Yazeed but were silent on Malik.

What proof do you have to exonerate Malik of this "ridiculous accusation"?  I know the nonsense you believe in; I just don't see any evidence that can be scrutinized for your idiotic beliefs.

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KAFIR? I know your kind are quick at accusing. This is nothing new.

According to Islamic sources and your Imams (ra), anyone who refuses to pay Zakat is a kafir.  Furthermore, disobeying Imams (ra) is tantamount to kufr, according to Shi'i sources.  And I provided Shi'i hadiths as proof.

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Look at the above you posted. When it comes to Islam.org It's OK for you to post/copy and paste but not for me 😊

The difference, dip$hit, is that I reference them.  I give you the link to my material.  You do not because, as we learned in this post, your lies are mostly refuted in the same articles that you copy-paste blindly.

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You haven't answered or addressed my question or query. You're still dancing around it. Here it is again in case you've forgotten;

Where does it say that Zakah is something you pay or give to a ruler and he decides what to do with it when Allah clearly mentions that Zakah is something you give from your hard earned money and who to give is clear in the Qur'an.

Where does it say in the Qur'an that you pay Zakah to a ruler?

Already answered!  Surah At-Taubah verse 60.  If there can be a Zakat collector then it necessitates that he or she is collecting as the leader or working on behalf of someone with certain degree of authority.

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Once you've answered or addressed this then please do go ahead with any jacket. The balls still sitting in your court.

I have answered your point.  Now show me, where does it say in the Qur'an that Zakat is only rendered to the "infallible Imams"?

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By all means. I asked and put it to you first. Once you've stopped dancing around and either answered the Question or addressed the matter or at least have the decency to put your hands up then I'm all yours. Remember, if you're asked a question or asked to address something then you do that rather than running away from it and throwing one back in return without answering or addressing just to save your skin.

blah blah blah!
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: muslim720 on July 01, 2018, 05:51:49 AM
The fact that you have copy-pasted from Islamic websites where one can pay Zakat proves that Zakat can be entrusted to an authoritative body, whether it be a ruler, a Zakat collector or an organization (such as IslamicHelp, IslamicRelief, etc).
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: zaid_ibn_ali on July 01, 2018, 11:53:02 AM
Iceman is just embarassing himself now.
When it was proven from shia sources that the ‘infallible Imams’ follwed the same process as Abu Bakr (may Allah be pleased with him) in collecting zakat, iceman decides to divert the topic to wanting proof from the Quran only.
Thats like asking to prove from the Quran whether we should fold out hands or leave them aside in Salah.
Zakat, like Salah is established in the Quran.
Your belief is only Ali (may Allah be pleased with him) knew the true meaning of the Quran & both sunni & shia source show he made it obligatory for the people to pay the zakah to his representatives to collect.
This has been established.
Argument over.
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: iceman on July 01, 2018, 05:04:06 PM
It certainly looks like you gentlemen are definitely enjoying yourselves by turning this into a circus.

It doesn't matter who it is be it rulers or Imams or any registered charity or authorised Zakah collectors or who ever, if someone refuses to hand over the Zakah money or even doesn't pay Zakah or Khums, as I'm sure just as many people don't fast or regularly pray or don't pray at all,

Does the ruler, Imam, Zakah collector or the authority/governing body in charge have a right to use violence and or threatening behaviour to get Muslims to pay Zakah or use heavy handed tactics to collect the Zakah money.

Does the governing body have the right to behead people for refusing to pay Zakah. Such a simple matter has been turned into a circus because you refuse to answer and address.

I'm not a coward and I will answer. I've seen you gentlemen and I've given you enough time.
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: muslim720 on July 03, 2018, 03:32:49 PM
It certainly looks like you gentlemen are definitely enjoying yourselves by turning this into a circus.

We did not intend for this to turn into a circus but when you entered the picture, we got a circus animal and we haven't looked back since then.

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It doesn't matter who it is be it rulers or Imams or any registered charity or authorised Zakah collectors or who ever, if someone refuses to hand over the Zakah money or even doesn't pay Zakah or Khums, as I'm sure just as many people don't fast or regularly pray or don't pray at all,

You insisted that Zakat is given, not paid.  I showed you from the Qur'an and Shi'i sources that Zakat can also be "paid"; that the word "pay" is also used in reference to Zakat.

I also met your challenge!  Surah At-Tawbah verse 60 says that "those who collect them" can benefit from Zakat which means that there can be people who are vested with the authority to collect Zakat.  Such an authority can only come from a higher authoritative body or if the collector is the one with absolute authority.

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Does the ruler, Imam, Zakah collector or the authority/governing body in charge have a right to use violence and or threatening behaviour to get Muslims to pay Zakah or use heavy handed tactics to collect the Zakah money.

We have you on record saying that you would answer my question after I have met your challenge.  Well, guess what, your challenge has been met.  Now prove from the Qur'an that Zakat is only rendered to "infallible Imams".

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Does the governing body have the right to behead people for refusing to pay Zakah. Such a simple matter has been turned into a circus because you refuse to answer and address.

....after you answer my question.  Mind you, at any given point, you can throw in the towel and quit.  It might save you a lot of headache and embarrassment.

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I'm not a coward and I will answer. I've seen you gentlemen and I've given you enough time.

Of course you will answer but with the most irrelevant, incoherent responses.
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: iceman on July 03, 2018, 07:52:53 PM
We did not intend for this to turn into a circus but when you entered the picture, we got a circus animal and we haven't looked back since then.

You insisted that Zakat is given, not paid.  I showed you from the Qur'an and Shi'i sources that Zakat can also be "paid"; that the word "pay" is also used in reference to Zakat.

I also met your challenge!  Surah At-Tawbah verse 60 says that "those who collect them" can benefit from Zakat which means that there can be people who are vested with the authority to collect Zakat.  Such an authority can only come from a higher authoritative body or if the collector is the one with absolute authority.

We have you on record saying that you would answer my question after I have met your challenge.  Well, guess what, your challenge has been met.  Now prove from the Qur'an that Zakat is only rendered to "infallible Imams".

....after you answer my question.  Mind you, at any given point, you can throw in the towel and quit.  It might save you a lot of headache and embarrassment.

Of course you will answer but with the most irrelevant, incoherent responses.

You've played around again just to avoid answering my question.

Here it is again in case you forgot,

Does the ruler, Imam, Zakah collector or the authority/governing body in charge have a right to use violence and or threatening behaviour to get Muslims to pay Zakah or use heavy handed tactics to collect the Zakah money. Does the governing body have the right to behead people for refusing to pay Zakah.

Can you prove and justify Abu Bakr's decision and Khaled bin Waleed's actions from the Qur'an.

It's a very important matter and should be justified and explained from the Qur'an. Capital punishment for not paying Zakah or handing over the Zakah money to the ruler/government/local authority needs to be proven from the Qur'an. Never mind about me, you're not an animal but a human. So start acting like one.
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: muslim720 on July 04, 2018, 04:11:18 AM
You've played around again just to avoid answering my question.

You lying conman, piece of $hit!

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Here it is again in case you forgot,

Does the ruler, Imam, Zakah collector or the authority/governing body in charge have a right to use violence and or threatening behaviour to get Muslims to pay Zakah or use heavy handed tactics to collect the Zakah money. Does the governing body have the right to behead people for refusing to pay Zakah.

In case you forgot, your original challenge - on page 4, post # 66 - was the following:
"Prove to me from the QUR'AN that rulers after Muhammad s.a.w  (regardless of who that ruler may be) has the God given right to force people to give Zakah and hand of the Zakah money to the regime. And if people refuse to hand over the Zakah money to the regime in place then they are WAJIB UL QATAL Basically they face the death penalty."

Using your own copy-paste, I proved to you from the Qur'an that people in authority can collect Zakat either directly or through appointed collectors.  Using sahih Shi'i hadiths, I proved to you that anyone who refuses to pay Zakat, never mind the circumstances, is an apostate who is punishable by death.

Much like you have one father, you get to pose one question.  This is a discussion not a mutah wholesale where an individual is allowed as many questions as fathers.  Hence, it is my turn to pose a question to you.  Can you prove from the Qur'an that Zakat is only rendered to "infallible Imams"?  Remember, you can throw in the towel anytime.

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Can you prove and justify Abu Bakr's decision and Khaled bin Waleed's actions from the Qur'an.

Coming up...

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It's a very important matter and should be justified and explained from the Qur'an. Capital punishment for not paying Zakah or handing over the Zakah money to the ruler/government/local authority needs to be proven from the Qur'an.

"Ibne Mahyar, Kulaini and other commentators have narrated from Imam Sadiq (a.s.) that: One who accepts the Wilayat of the Holy Imams (a.s.) and does not disobey their commands would not be misguided in this world and would not suffer in the hereafter.

In another traditions the Holy Prophet (S) says: O people, follow the guidance of Allah so that you may be guided and acquire goodness and improvement.  Guidance of Allah is my guidance and my guidance is the guidance of Ali (a.s.), one who follows his guidance in my life and after my passing away, he has followed the guidance of Allah.  He would never be misguided and a sinner."

Taken from: https://www.al-islam.org/hayat-al-qulub-vol3-allamah-muhammad-baqir-al-majlisi/part-32-verses-pointing-holy-imams

"Imam Sadiq (a.s.) said: Some clear signs (verses) of Quran are in the hearts of those who have been given the knowledge, are the holy Imams from Aale Muhammad (a.s.) and in their hearts are both the words and the meanings of the Quran.

In Basairud Darajat, through reliable chains of narrators, Abu Baseer reports that Imam Baqir (a.s.) recited this verse and then said: Allah has not said that the Mushaf (text of Quran) is between two hardboard covers. Rather He has said that it is in the hearts of those who have been given the knowledge of it. Abu Baseer asked: are you those people? The Imam replied: Who else can be?

Kulaini has, with reliable chains of narrators, quoted Imam Baqir (a.s.) saying that no one has ever claimed but falsely that he knows the entire Quran as it has been revealed to the Holy Prophet (S) and that he has collected it and that he has remembered (learnt) it by heart except Ali Ibne Abi Talib (a.s.) and the Imams after him (they only have made such a claim truly).

It is mentioned in Basair that a man came to Imam Kazim (a.s.) and said: You are giving such explanation of Allah’s Book the like of which we have never heard before from anyone else. The Hazrat replied: The Holy Quran came to us before all others and we got its explanation before it reached anyone else. "

Taken from: https://www.al-islam.org/hayat-al-qulub-vol3-allamah-muhammad-baqir-al-majlisi/part-3-those-who-have-knowledge-quran-are

Reading those excerpts, it becomes clear that no one knew the Qur'an like the Imams (ra), according to Shi'i aqeedah.  Now I remind you of all the things that Shi'i Imams (ra) said in regards to those who fail to pay Zakat.

Here are three narrations from Al-Kafi declaring those who refuse to pay Zakah as apostates:
   
‘Ali ibn Ibrahim from his father from Isma’il ibn Marrar from Yunus from Ibn Muskan … on the authority of Abu Ja’far (Muhammad ibn ‘Ali Al-Baqir): “The Messenger of Allah addressed a group of people in the mosque telling some of them to get up [of the mosque] until he threw out five persons, then he said: “Get out of our mosque and do not pray in here whilst you haven’t paid your Zakah.” [Al Kafi vol. 3 – The Book Of Zakah ch. 2]

Yunus from ‘Ali ibn Abi Hamzah from Abu Basir on the authority of Abu ‘Abdillah (Al-Sadiq), who said: “He who refuses to pay even a single ounce of the Zakah is not a believer nor a Muslim and this is the statement of Him (Allah), may He be glorified and exalted […].” [Al-Kafi vol. 3 – The Book Of Zakah ch. 2]

Abu ‘Ali Al-Ash’ari, from the one who mentioned it, from Hafs ibn ‘Omar, from Salim, from Abu Basir, (It has been narrated) from Abu ‘Abdullah (Al-Sadiq), who said: “Whoever refuses to pay a carat of Zakat, let him choose to die as a Jew or a Christian (i.e. kafir).” [Al-Kafi vol. 3 – The Book Of Zakah ch. 2]

And what is the punishment for refusing to pay Zakah?

....from Sahl from ibn Shamun from Al-Asam from Malikk ibn ‘Utbah from Ibn Taghlub who said: “Abu Abdullah (i.e. Al-Sadiq) told me: “Allah has declared the blood of two types of people permissible to be shed in Islam, nobody must judge with regards to these two types until Allah sends our Qa’im (Shia Mahdi) from Ahl Al-Bayt, and when Allah sends him, he will judge with regards to these two types according to the ruling of Allah, without requiring any testimony, which is: The adulterer will be stoned and the one who refuses to pay the Zakah will get beheaded.” [Al-Kafi vol. 3 – The Book Of Zakah ch. 2]

The above narration can be found in many other primary and secondary Shia sources, such as:

1. Man La Yahduruhu Al-Faqih, vol. 2, p. 11
2. Wasa’il Al-Shia, vol.6, p. 19
3. Al-Mahasin, p. 87, in Kamal Al-Din, v. 2, p. 671
4. Al-Khisal, v. 1, p. 169
5. Raudah Al-Wa’idhin, v. 2, p. 356
6. Wasa’il Al-Shia, vol.6, p. 19
7. Basa’ir Al-Darajat, p. 170
8. Bihar Al-Anwar, vol. 52, p. 309

Bye, piece of $hit!
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: iceman on July 05, 2018, 05:22:28 PM
You lying conman, piece of $hit!

In case you forgot, your original challenge - on page 4, post # 66 - was the following:
"Prove to me from the QUR'AN that rulers after Muhammad s.a.w  (regardless of who that ruler may be) has the God given right to force people to give Zakah and hand of the Zakah money to the regime. And if people refuse to hand over the Zakah money to the regime in place then they are WAJIB UL QATAL Basically they face the death penalty."

Using your own copy-paste, I proved to you from the Qur'an that people in authority can collect Zakat either directly or through appointed collectors.  Using sahih Shi'i hadiths, I proved to you that anyone who refuses to pay Zakat, never mind the circumstances, is an apostate who is punishable by death.

Much like you have one father, you get to pose one question.  This is a discussion not a mutah wholesale where an individual is allowed as many questions as fathers.  Hence, it is my turn to pose a question to you.  Can you prove from the Qur'an that Zakat is only rendered to "infallible Imams"?  Remember, you can throw in the towel anytime.

Coming up...

"Ibne Mahyar, Kulaini and other commentators have narrated from Imam Sadiq (a.s.) that: One who accepts the Wilayat of the Holy Imams (a.s.) and does not disobey their commands would not be misguided in this world and would not suffer in the hereafter.

In another traditions the Holy Prophet (S) says: O people, follow the guidance of Allah so that you may be guided and acquire goodness and improvement.  Guidance of Allah is my guidance and my guidance is the guidance of Ali (a.s.), one who follows his guidance in my life and after my passing away, he has followed the guidance of Allah.  He would never be misguided and a sinner."

Taken from: https://www.al-islam.org/hayat-al-qulub-vol3-allamah-muhammad-baqir-al-majlisi/part-32-verses-pointing-holy-imams

"Imam Sadiq (a.s.) said: Some clear signs (verses) of Quran are in the hearts of those who have been given the knowledge, are the holy Imams from Aale Muhammad (a.s.) and in their hearts are both the words and the meanings of the Quran.

In Basairud Darajat, through reliable chains of narrators, Abu Baseer reports that Imam Baqir (a.s.) recited this verse and then said: Allah has not said that the Mushaf (text of Quran) is between two hardboard covers. Rather He has said that it is in the hearts of those who have been given the knowledge of it. Abu Baseer asked: are you those people? The Imam replied: Who else can be?

Kulaini has, with reliable chains of narrators, quoted Imam Baqir (a.s.) saying that no one has ever claimed but falsely that he knows the entire Quran as it has been revealed to the Holy Prophet (S) and that he has collected it and that he has remembered (learnt) it by heart except Ali Ibne Abi Talib (a.s.) and the Imams after him (they only have made such a claim truly).

It is mentioned in Basair that a man came to Imam Kazim (a.s.) and said: You are giving such explanation of Allah’s Book the like of which we have never heard before from anyone else. The Hazrat replied: The Holy Quran came to us before all others and we got its explanation before it reached anyone else. "

Taken from: https://www.al-islam.org/hayat-al-qulub-vol3-allamah-muhammad-baqir-al-majlisi/part-3-those-who-have-knowledge-quran-are

Reading those excerpts, it becomes clear that no one knew the Qur'an like the Imams (ra), according to Shi'i aqeedah.  Now I remind you of all the things that Shi'i Imams (ra) said in regards to those who fail to pay Zakat.

Here are three narrations from Al-Kafi declaring those who refuse to pay Zakah as apostates:
   
‘Ali ibn Ibrahim from his father from Isma’il ibn Marrar from Yunus from Ibn Muskan … on the authority of Abu Ja’far (Muhammad ibn ‘Ali Al-Baqir): “The Messenger of Allah addressed a group of people in the mosque telling some of them to get up [of the mosque] until he threw out five persons, then he said: “Get out of our mosque and do not pray in here whilst you haven’t paid your Zakah.” [Al Kafi vol. 3 – The Book Of Zakah ch. 2]

Yunus from ‘Ali ibn Abi Hamzah from Abu Basir on the authority of Abu ‘Abdillah (Al-Sadiq), who said: “He who refuses to pay even a single ounce of the Zakah is not a believer nor a Muslim and this is the statement of Him (Allah), may He be glorified and exalted […].” [Al-Kafi vol. 3 – The Book Of Zakah ch. 2]

Abu ‘Ali Al-Ash’ari, from the one who mentioned it, from Hafs ibn ‘Omar, from Salim, from Abu Basir, (It has been narrated) from Abu ‘Abdullah (Al-Sadiq), who said: “Whoever refuses to pay a carat of Zakat, let him choose to die as a Jew or a Christian (i.e. kafir).” [Al-Kafi vol. 3 – The Book Of Zakah ch. 2]

And what is the punishment for refusing to pay Zakah?

....from Sahl from ibn Shamun from Al-Asam from Malikk ibn ‘Utbah from Ibn Taghlub who said: “Abu Abdullah (i.e. Al-Sadiq) told me: “Allah has declared the blood of two types of people permissible to be shed in Islam, nobody must judge with regards to these two types until Allah sends our Qa’im (Shia Mahdi) from Ahl Al-Bayt, and when Allah sends him, he will judge with regards to these two types according to the ruling of Allah, without requiring any testimony, which is: The adulterer will be stoned and the one who refuses to pay the Zakah will get beheaded.” [Al-Kafi vol. 3 – The Book Of Zakah ch. 2]

The above narration can be found in many other primary and secondary Shia sources, such as:

1. Man La Yahduruhu Al-Faqih, vol. 2, p. 11
2. Wasa’il Al-Shia, vol.6, p. 19
3. Al-Mahasin, p. 87, in Kamal Al-Din, v. 2, p. 671
4. Al-Khisal, v. 1, p. 169
5. Raudah Al-Wa’idhin, v. 2, p. 356
6. Wasa’il Al-Shia, vol.6, p. 19
7. Basa’ir Al-Darajat, p. 170
8. Bihar Al-Anwar, vol. 52, p. 309

Bye, piece of $hit!

I'm not going to ask you to watch your language because that's how and what you speak. Neither am I going to report you because it will be an absolute waste of time. I can clearly see that you're still dancing around turning and twisting, doing your very best to avoid answering or owning up. CAN'T ANSWER or WON'T ANSWER.

You need to prove from the Qur'an itself about forcing people to pay or hand over the Zakah money. And if they don't then they are Wajib Ul Qatal, in other words they face the death penalty. You have really got yourself stuck, haven't you.

You can humiliate and insult me as much as you like or want. You can try your very best but you will never get a similar kind or type of reaction out of me which you so desperately want.
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: muslim720 on July 05, 2018, 05:37:01 PM
I can clearly see that you're still dancing around turning and twisting, doing your very best to avoid answering or owning up. CAN'T ANSWER or WON'T ANSWER.

I showed you from the Qur'an that Zakat can be collected by a ruler or an authoritative body.  Now it is your turn to meet my challenge.  Instead you wish to follow it up with another question.  For that reason, I call you a POS because you do not know how to discuss; you assured me that you would answer my question after I answer yours.  Answer my question or get lost!

Quote
You need to prove from the Qur'an itself about forcing people to pay or hand over the Zakah money. And if they don't then they are Wajib Ul Qatal, in other words they face the death penalty. You have really got yourself stuck, haven't you.

See, this is why you are a piece of $hit, the kind that gets stuck to the toilet commode and no matter how many times you flush it, just won't go away.

Quote
You can humiliate and insult me as much as you like or want. You can try your very best but you will never get a similar kind or type of reaction out of me which you so desperately want.

I don't want any reaction from you except an answer: where does it say that Zakat must be rendered to "infallible Imams"?  Acting like a piece of $hit is the same as being one and you have already established that by acting like one!
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: iceman on July 05, 2018, 05:43:43 PM
I'm not a coward neither do I need to dance around like you to avoid answering or owning up.

So here it comes, your question;

"Can you prove from the Qur'an that Zakat is only rendered to "infallible Imams"?  Remember, you can throw in the towel anytime."

I don't need to throw in the towel when I can easily throw in the answer unlike you.

Answer to your question,

When and where did I say or claim that Zakah is only rendered to infallible Imams. Can you provide references and prove to me where and when did I make such a claim. 😊 Lets hope you give an answer to at least something
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: iceman on July 05, 2018, 05:49:58 PM
I showed you from the Qur'an that Zakat can be collected by a ruler or an authoritative body.  Now it is your turn to meet my challenge.  Instead you wish to follow it up with another question.  For that reason, I call you a POS because you do not know how to discuss; you assured me that you would answer my question after I answer yours.  Answer my question or get lost!

See, this is why you are a piece of $hit, the kind that gets stuck to the toilet commode and no matter how many times you flush it, just won't go away.

I don't want any reaction from you except an answer: where does it say that Zakat must be rendered to "infallible Imams"?  Acting like a piece of $hit is the same as being one and you have already established that by acting like one!

"I showed you from the Qur'an that Zakat can be collected by a ruler or an authoritative body"

Would you kindly tell me in which post did you mention from the Qur'an that government/authority/rulers have the right to FORCE people to pay or give Zakah or FORCE people in handling over the Zakah money or they face CAPITAL PUNISHMENT, they are WAJIB UL QATAL
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: muslim720 on July 05, 2018, 06:06:06 PM
I'm not a coward neither do I need to dance around like you to avoid answering or owning up.

I am almost certain now that you were bullied as a kid to see every challenge as confrontation.

Quote
Answer to your question,

When and where did I say or claim that Zakah is only rendered to infallible Imams. Can you provide references and prove to me where and when did I make such a claim. 😊

That is not the claim you made but that was my follow-up question.  I want you to see how I can straitjacket you just as good, even better, than you can straitjacket me (because I already proved to you that Zakat is to be rendered to the leader or to an authoritative body acting on behalf of the leader).  Straitjacketing, however, does not benefit the discussion.

Zakat is a pillar of Islam and if you abstain from paying or giving it, you are denying a Qur'anic injunction.  Denying a Qur'anic injunction puts you outside the fold of Islam.  Authentic narrations from Al-Kafi agrees that not paying Zakat makes one an apostate and "Wajib ul Qatal".  And disobeying your Imams (ra) on this point makes you an apostate, according to your own madhhab.  So why pretend you want Qur'anic proof when you are disobeying your own Imams (ra)?  Whereas we have seen you side with your Imams (ra) even when their (alleged, falsely-attributed-to-them) reports go against the Qur'an and Prophetic Sunnah.

Quote
Lets hope you give an answer to at least something

...I mean...la hawla wala quwata illa Billah!
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: muslim720 on July 05, 2018, 06:10:37 PM
Would you kindly tell me in which post did you mention from the Qur'an that government/authority/rulers have the right to FORCE people to pay or give Zakah or FORCE people in handling over the Zakah money or they face CAPITAL PUNISHMENT, they are WAJIB UL QATAL

Straitjacketing failed you that now you have resorted to changing-goal-posts tactic. 

And what is with your repeated chanting of the phrase, "Wajib ul Qatal"?  I am starting to think you learned it from your relative who kept throwing the same phrase around in this video.

Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: iceman on July 05, 2018, 06:28:40 PM
Straitjacketing failed you that now you have resorted to changing-goal-posts tactic. 

And what is with your repeated chanting of the phrase, "Wajib ul Qatal"?  I am starting to think you learned it from your relative who kept throwing the same phrase around in this video.



"you have resorted to changing-goal-posts tactic"

That's exactly your policy with this video you've posted. Still no answer from you. What a shame.
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: iceman on July 05, 2018, 06:33:31 PM
I am almost certain now that you were bullied as a kid to see every challenge as confrontation.

That is not the claim you made but that was my follow-up question.  I want you to see how I can straitjacket you just as good, even better, than you can straitjacket me (because I already proved to you that Zakat is to be rendered to the leader or to an authoritative body acting on behalf of the leader).  Straitjacketing, however, does not benefit the discussion.

Zakat is a pillar of Islam and if you abstain from paying or giving it, you are denying a Qur'anic injunction.  Denying a Qur'anic injunction puts you outside the fold of Islam.  Authentic narrations from Al-Kafi agrees that not paying Zakat makes one an apostate and "Wajib ul Qatal".  And disobeying your Imams (ra) on this point makes you an apostate, according to your own madhhab.  So why pretend you want Qur'anic proof when you are disobeying your own Imams (ra)?  Whereas we have seen you side with your Imams (ra) even when their (alleged, falsely-attributed-to-them) reports go against the Qur'an and Prophetic Sunnah.

...I mean...la hawla wala quwata illa Billah!

"I am almost certain now that you were bullied as a kid to see every challenge as confrontation"

Then why are you behaving in a manner as though you were bullied.

Still no answer from you. I definitely think you should stop embarrassing yourself and just slip away.
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: muslim720 on July 05, 2018, 07:05:03 PM
"I am almost certain now that you were bullied as a kid to see every challenge as confrontation"

Then why are you behaving in a manner as though you were bullied.

Still no answer from you. I definitely think you should stop embarrassing yourself and just slip away.

I wish we had this discussion in person.  In the meantime, my du'a is this: may Allah (swt) make Malik's abode your eternal abode and may Allah (swt) make Abu Bakr's (ra) and Khaled's (ra) abode as my eternal abode.
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: iceman on July 05, 2018, 08:49:49 PM
I wish we had this discussion in person.  In the meantime, my du'a is this: may Allah (swt) make Malik's abode your eternal abode and may Allah (swt) make Abu Bakr's (ra) and Khaled's (ra) abode as my eternal abode.

Abu Bakr bin Kuafah's decision and Khaled bin Waleed's actions can't be proven from the Qur'an therefore can't be justified. Just as simple as that. CASE CLOSED.
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: iceman on July 05, 2018, 09:37:31 PM
Sehih Bukhari, Volume 2, Book 24.
The book of Zakah.

Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah's Apostle said, "Whoever is made wealthy by Allah and does not pay the Zakat of his wealth, then on the Day of Resurrection his wealth will be made like a bald-headed poisonous male snake with two black spots over the eyes. The snake will encircle his neck and bite his cheeks and say, 'I am your wealth, I am your treasure.'" (Bukhari, Volume 2, Book 24, No.486)

What was the need for Abu Hurayra to say the above.

"And does not pay the Zakat of his wealth, then on the Day of Resurrection"

Why leave it till the day of resurrection. I thought you said the one who doesn't pay Zakah then it's the rulers job to put someone in charge in each area and region to collect it or behead them.

Here Abu Hurayra is saying that the Prophet s.a.w is leaving it to the day of resurrection.
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: iceman on July 06, 2018, 07:22:15 AM
http://mahajjah.com/

Take a look at the above Ahle Sunnah ink. Below is information from that link concerning the killing of Malik bin Nuwayrah, the Ahle Sunnah perspective.

The execution of Malik ibn Nuwayrah
Shortly after the demise of Rasulullah salla Llahu `alayhi wa sallam a number of tribes in the Arabian peninsula turned away from Islam. With many of them apostasy was expressed in the form of a refusal to pay the zakat. From Madinah Sayyidina Abu Bakr radiya Llahu `anhu dispatched a number of punitive expeditions. Khalid ibn al Walid radiya Llahu `anhu was placed in command of one such expedition.

After his victory against some of the apostate tribes, Khalid set out for Banu Sulaym, another of the apostate tribes. On his way towards Banu Sulaym he passed through the lands of Banu Tamim. Malik ibn Nuwayrah was a member of this tribe, and he had been appointed zakat – collector of Banu Tamim by Rasulullah salla Llahu `alayhi wa sallam. Reports had been circulating that Malik too, was withholding the zakat.1 There were even more disturbing reports about him having started to speak ill about Rasulullah salla Llahu `alayhi wa sallam, and referring to him in derogatory terms.2

Sayyidina Khalid radiya Llahu `anhu had orders from Sayyidina Abu Bakr radiya Llahu `anhu to inspect the practices of the people of the various locations he passed by in order to find out whether they were Muslims or whether they too, had forsaken Islam. If they heard the adhan and saw the people performing salah they could conclude that they were Muslims, and if they did not see them upholding the salah that would be an indication that they were not Muslim.3 In the case of Banu Tamim, Sayyidina Khalid’s spies differed: some claimed that they did not make salah, while others claimed that they did.4

According to one report, their mu’adhin, a person by the name of Abu al Jalal, was absent, which was the reason why no adhan was heard.5 It has even been reported that they encountered armed resistance from Malik and his men at an oasis called al Ba’udah.6 Those who put up the resistance, including Malik, were captured and brought before Sayyidina Khalid radiya Llahu `anhu. He decided that they must be put to death. This is how Malik ibn Nuwayrah was killed.

In Sayyidina Khalid’s party was the Sahabi Sayyidina Abu Qatadah radiya Llahu `anhu. He was amongst those who claimed that they had seen Malik’s people making salah. He was thus understandably upset at the decision of Sayyidina Khalid radiya Llahu `anhu, and returned immediately to Madinah to complain to Sayyidina Abu Bakr radiya Llahu `anhu. Sayyidina `Umar radiya Llahu `anhu insisted that Khalid be removed from his position as commander on account of his impetuousness. Khalid was summoned back to Madinah and interrogated by the khalifah, who concluded that Khalid’s deed was an error of judgement, for which it was not necessary to dismiss him.7

Sayyidina Abu Bakr radiya Llahu `anhu was guided in this decision by two things. Firstly, the hadith of Rasulullah salla Llahu `alayhi wa sallam wherein he described Khalid as “the sword which Allah unsheathed against the unbelievers”.

The second was the fact that a similar occurrence took place in the time of Rasulullah salla Llahu `alayhi wa sallam, also with Khalid ibn al Walid. He was put in command by Rasulullah salla Llahu `alayhi wa sallam of an expedition to Banu Jadhimah. When Khalid asked them to accept Islam they responded by saying: “saba’na, saba’na”, a word which literally means “We have become Sabeans”, but which had come to be used in the general sense of changing one’s religion. To Khalid this was not sufficient evidence of their acceptance of Islam, and he gave the order for their execution. When the news of their execution reached Rasulullah salla Llahu `alayhi wa sallam he lifted his hands and said: “O Allah, I dissociate myself from what Khalid has done.”8 Although Rasulullah salla Llahu `alayhi wa sallam dissociated himself from the haste Khalid made himself guilty of, he did not punish him, since it was an error in judgement on his part. A very regrettable error it was, but it was still an error. It was for this reason that Rasulullah salla Llahu `alayhi wa sallam did not hesitate to give Khalid command over other expeditions as well.

Shortly after the Banu Jadhimah incident Rasulullah entrusted him with the mission to destroy the temple of the pagan goddess `Uzza at a place called Nakhlah.9 In Jumad al Ula in the year 10 A.H he was sent on a da`wah mission to Banu Harith ibn Ka`b, and they accepted Islam at his hands without a drop of blood being shed.10 It was also to Khalid that Rasulullah salla Llahu `alayhi wa sallam entrusted the expedition to Ukaydir ibn `Abd al Malik.11

Above all there was the day, at the battle of Mu’tah in the year 8 A.H, when Khalid ibn al Walid radiya Llahu `anhu would prove his valour and military genius by saving the day for Islam and the Muslim ummah in its first ever encounter with the Roman Empire. The three generals appointed by Rasulullah salla Llahu `alayhi wa sallam all attained martyrdom in succession, and the standard was taken over by the valiant Khalid, who through his sheer genius managed to save the honour of Islam by effecting a tactical withdrawal after what seemed like certain defeat. Rasulullah was informed by Allah of what had happened at Mu’tah, and although his eyes were filled with tears at the martyrdom of his beloved cousin Jafar ibn Abi Talib, his adopted son Zaid ibn Harithah and the poet `Abdullah ibn Rawahah radiya Llahu `anhum, he saw reason to give the Muslims in Madinah the glad tidings of Khalid’s victory, saying: “then the standard was taken up by a Sword from amongst the Swords of Allah, and upon his hands did Allah grant victory.”12

All of this shows that Rasulullah salla Llahu `alayhi wa sallam saw the Banu Jadhimah incident, as regrettable as it was, as a mistake on the part of Khalid. In not punishing Khalid for the execution of Malik ibn Nuwayrah, and not dismissing him from his post as commander, Sayyidina Abu Bakr radiya Llahu `anhu was thus completely justified. His interrogation of Khalid revealed that Khalid had committed an error of judgement, and the insistence of Sayyidina `Umar radiya Llahu `anhu that Khalid be dismissed was met by a resolute answer form Sayyidina Abu Bakr radiya Llahu `anhu: “I will not sheath the sword that was drawn by Allah.”13 Like Rasulullah salla Llahu `alayhi wa sallam did in the case of Banu Jadhimah, Sayyidina Abu Bakr radiya Llahu `anhu paid out blood money to Malik’s brother Mutammim, and ordered the release of all captives taken by Khalid.13

Have a read of the above analysis.
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: muslim720 on July 06, 2018, 05:13:44 PM
What was the need for Abu Hurayra to say the above.

....because the Prophet (saw) said it.

Quote
Why leave it till the day of resurrection.

Are you seriously retarded to the point that you cannot differentiate between punishments in this life and the Hereafter?

Quote
I thought you said the one who doesn't pay Zakah then it's the rulers job to put someone in charge in each area and region to collect it or behead them.

I did not say that; Imam Kulayni reported your Imams (ra) saying that the person who does not pay Zakat becomes an apostate and can be killed.

Quote
Here Abu Hurayra is saying that the Prophet s.a.w is leaving it to the day of resurrection.

Where in the narration does it say that the Prophet (saw) will leave it to the Day of Resurrection? 

On another note, you need to stop.  I am running out of patience with your red-herrings, misrepresentation of Prophetic hadiths and downright lies.
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: iceman on July 06, 2018, 06:11:09 PM
....because the Prophet (saw) said it.

Are you seriously retarded to the point that you cannot differentiate between punishments in this life and the Hereafter?

I did not say that; Imam Kulayni reported your Imams (ra) saying that the person who does not pay Zakat becomes an apostate and can be killed.

On another note, you need to stop.  I am running out of patience with your red-herrings, misrepresentation of Prophetic hadiths and downright lies.

What, did Abu Hurayra say that those who don't pay Zakah are apostates and should be beheaded because the Prophet s.a.w said so. No. Obviously there is no indication of this in the Qur'an otherwise you wouldn't be dancing around till now.

"I did not say that; Imam Kulayni reported your Imams (ra) saying that the person who does not pay Zakat becomes an apostate and can be killed."

Ok, then this is serious business. Can this be proven from the Qur'an. Surely there should be some indication of such an important matter in the Qur'an.
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: iceman on July 06, 2018, 06:15:52 PM
http://mahajjah.com/

Take a look at the above Ahle Sunnah ink. Below is information from that link concerning the killing of Malik bin Nuwayrah, the Ahle Sunnah perspective.

The execution of Malik ibn Nuwayrah
Shortly after the demise of Rasulullah salla Llahu `alayhi wa sallam a number of tribes in the Arabian peninsula turned away from Islam. With many of them apostasy was expressed in the form of a refusal to pay the zakat. From Madinah Sayyidina Abu Bakr radiya Llahu `anhu dispatched a number of punitive expeditions. Khalid ibn al Walid radiya Llahu `anhu was placed in command of one such expedition.

After his victory against some of the apostate tribes, Khalid set out for Banu Sulaym, another of the apostate tribes. On his way towards Banu Sulaym he passed through the lands of Banu Tamim. Malik ibn Nuwayrah was a member of this tribe, and he had been appointed zakat – collector of Banu Tamim by Rasulullah salla Llahu `alayhi wa sallam. Reports had been circulating that Malik too, was withholding the zakat.1 There were even more disturbing reports about him having started to speak ill about Rasulullah salla Llahu `alayhi wa sallam, and referring to him in derogatory terms.2

Sayyidina Khalid radiya Llahu `anhu had orders from Sayyidina Abu Bakr radiya Llahu `anhu to inspect the practices of the people of the various locations he passed by in order to find out whether they were Muslims or whether they too, had forsaken Islam. If they heard the adhan and saw the people performing salah they could conclude that they were Muslims, and if they did not see them upholding the salah that would be an indication that they were not Muslim.3 In the case of Banu Tamim, Sayyidina Khalid’s spies differed: some claimed that they did not make salah, while others claimed that they did.4

According to one report, their mu’adhin, a person by the name of Abu al Jalal, was absent, which was the reason why no adhan was heard.5 It has even been reported that they encountered armed resistance from Malik and his men at an oasis called al Ba’udah.6 Those who put up the resistance, including Malik, were captured and brought before Sayyidina Khalid radiya Llahu `anhu. He decided that they must be put to death. This is how Malik ibn Nuwayrah was killed.

In Sayyidina Khalid’s party was the Sahabi Sayyidina Abu Qatadah radiya Llahu `anhu. He was amongst those who claimed that they had seen Malik’s people making salah. He was thus understandably upset at the decision of Sayyidina Khalid radiya Llahu `anhu, and returned immediately to Madinah to complain to Sayyidina Abu Bakr radiya Llahu `anhu. Sayyidina `Umar radiya Llahu `anhu insisted that Khalid be removed from his position as commander on account of his impetuousness. Khalid was summoned back to Madinah and interrogated by the khalifah, who concluded that Khalid’s deed was an error of judgement, for which it was not necessary to dismiss him.7

Sayyidina Abu Bakr radiya Llahu `anhu was guided in this decision by two things. Firstly, the hadith of Rasulullah salla Llahu `alayhi wa sallam wherein he described Khalid as “the sword which Allah unsheathed against the unbelievers”.

The second was the fact that a similar occurrence took place in the time of Rasulullah salla Llahu `alayhi wa sallam, also with Khalid ibn al Walid. He was put in command by Rasulullah salla Llahu `alayhi wa sallam of an expedition to Banu Jadhimah. When Khalid asked them to accept Islam they responded by saying: “saba’na, saba’na”, a word which literally means “We have become Sabeans”, but which had come to be used in the general sense of changing one’s religion. To Khalid this was not sufficient evidence of their acceptance of Islam, and he gave the order for their execution. When the news of their execution reached Rasulullah salla Llahu `alayhi wa sallam he lifted his hands and said: “O Allah, I dissociate myself from what Khalid has done.”8 Although Rasulullah salla Llahu `alayhi wa sallam dissociated himself from the haste Khalid made himself guilty of, he did not punish him, since it was an error in judgement on his part. A very regrettable error it was, but it was still an error. It was for this reason that Rasulullah salla Llahu `alayhi wa sallam did not hesitate to give Khalid command over other expeditions as well.

Shortly after the Banu Jadhimah incident Rasulullah entrusted him with the mission to destroy the temple of the pagan goddess `Uzza at a place called Nakhlah.9 In Jumad al Ula in the year 10 A.H he was sent on a da`wah mission to Banu Harith ibn Ka`b, and they accepted Islam at his hands without a drop of blood being shed.10 It was also to Khalid that Rasulullah salla Llahu `alayhi wa sallam entrusted the expedition to Ukaydir ibn `Abd al Malik.11

Above all there was the day, at the battle of Mu’tah in the year 8 A.H, when Khalid ibn al Walid radiya Llahu `anhu would prove his valour and military genius by saving the day for Islam and the Muslim ummah in its first ever encounter with the Roman Empire. The three generals appointed by Rasulullah salla Llahu `alayhi wa sallam all attained martyrdom in succession, and the standard was taken over by the valiant Khalid, who through his sheer genius managed to save the honour of Islam by effecting a tactical withdrawal after what seemed like certain defeat. Rasulullah was informed by Allah of what had happened at Mu’tah, and although his eyes were filled with tears at the martyrdom of his beloved cousin Jafar ibn Abi Talib, his adopted son Zaid ibn Harithah and the poet `Abdullah ibn Rawahah radiya Llahu `anhum, he saw reason to give the Muslims in Madinah the glad tidings of Khalid’s victory, saying: “then the standard was taken up by a Sword from amongst the Swords of Allah, and upon his hands did Allah grant victory.”12

All of this shows that Rasulullah salla Llahu `alayhi wa sallam saw the Banu Jadhimah incident, as regrettable as it was, as a mistake on the part of Khalid. In not punishing Khalid for the execution of Malik ibn Nuwayrah, and not dismissing him from his post as commander, Sayyidina Abu Bakr radiya Llahu `anhu was thus completely justified. His interrogation of Khalid revealed that Khalid had committed an error of judgement, and the insistence of Sayyidina `Umar radiya Llahu `anhu that Khalid be dismissed was met by a resolute answer form Sayyidina Abu Bakr radiya Llahu `anhu: “I will not sheath the sword that was drawn by Allah.”13 Like Rasulullah salla Llahu `alayhi wa sallam did in the case of Banu Jadhimah, Sayyidina Abu Bakr radiya Llahu `anhu paid out blood money to Malik’s brother Mutammim, and ordered the release of all captives taken by Khalid.13

Have a read of the above analysis.

Gentlemen any comment on the above analysis. It's from an Ahle Sunah site so you don't have to be afraid. Was the killing of Malik a grave error or was he an apostate and worthy of being killed.
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: muslim720 on July 07, 2018, 05:17:35 AM
Above all there was the day, at the battle of Mu’tah in the year 8 A.H, when Khalid ibn al Walid radiya Llahu `anhu would prove his valour and military genius by saving the day for Islam and the Muslim ummah in its first ever encounter with the Roman Empire.

While we still wait for this Conman to produce anything from our classical scholars which says that Imam Hussain (ra) "saved" Islam, at least we can agree that Khalid ibn Walid (ra) saved the day for Islam.  And Conman endorses the article, therefore, he must also endorse this notion. 
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: muslim720 on July 07, 2018, 05:19:58 AM
Ok, then this is serious business. Can this be proven from the Qur'an. Surely there should be some indication of such an important matter in the Qur'an.

Imam Kulayni reports it from your Imams (ra) in Al-Kafi.  Are you accusing your own Imams (ra) of lying?  Hahaha!
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: iceman on July 07, 2018, 07:56:03 AM
http://mahajjah.com/

Take a look at the above Ahle Sunnah ink. Below is information from that link concerning the killing of Malik bin Nuwayrah, the Ahle Sunnah perspective.

The execution of Malik ibn Nuwayrah
Shortly after the demise of Rasulullah salla Llahu `alayhi wa sallam a number of tribes in the Arabian peninsula turned away from Islam. With many of them apostasy was expressed in the form of a refusal to pay the zakat. From Madinah Sayyidina Abu Bakr radiya Llahu `anhu dispatched a number of punitive expeditions. Khalid ibn al Walid radiya Llahu `anhu was placed in command of one such expedition.

After his victory against some of the apostate tribes, Khalid set out for Banu Sulaym, another of the apostate tribes. On his way towards Banu Sulaym he passed through the lands of Banu Tamim. Malik ibn Nuwayrah was a member of this tribe, and he had been appointed zakat – collector of Banu Tamim by Rasulullah salla Llahu `alayhi wa sallam. Reports had been circulating that Malik too, was withholding the zakat.1 There were even more disturbing reports about him having started to speak ill about Rasulullah salla Llahu `alayhi wa sallam, and referring to him in derogatory terms.2

Sayyidina Khalid radiya Llahu `anhu had orders from Sayyidina Abu Bakr radiya Llahu `anhu to inspect the practices of the people of the various locations he passed by in order to find out whether they were Muslims or whether they too, had forsaken Islam. If they heard the adhan and saw the people performing salah they could conclude that they were Muslims, and if they did not see them upholding the salah that would be an indication that they were not Muslim.3 In the case of Banu Tamim, Sayyidina Khalid’s spies differed: some claimed that they did not make salah, while others claimed that they did.4

According to one report, their mu’adhin, a person by the name of Abu al Jalal, was absent, which was the reason why no adhan was heard.5 It has even been reported that they encountered armed resistance from Malik and his men at an oasis called al Ba’udah.6 Those who put up the resistance, including Malik, were captured and brought before Sayyidina Khalid radiya Llahu `anhu. He decided that they must be put to death. This is how Malik ibn Nuwayrah was killed.

In Sayyidina Khalid’s party was the Sahabi Sayyidina Abu Qatadah radiya Llahu `anhu. He was amongst those who claimed that they had seen Malik’s people making salah. He was thus understandably upset at the decision of Sayyidina Khalid radiya Llahu `anhu, and returned immediately to Madinah to complain to Sayyidina Abu Bakr radiya Llahu `anhu. Sayyidina `Umar radiya Llahu `anhu insisted that Khalid be removed from his position as commander on account of his impetuousness. Khalid was summoned back to Madinah and interrogated by the khalifah, who concluded that Khalid’s deed was an error of judgement, for which it was not necessary to dismiss him.7

Sayyidina Abu Bakr radiya Llahu `anhu was guided in this decision by two things. Firstly, the hadith of Rasulullah salla Llahu `alayhi wa sallam wherein he described Khalid as “the sword which Allah unsheathed against the unbelievers”.

The second was the fact that a similar occurrence took place in the time of Rasulullah salla Llahu `alayhi wa sallam, also with Khalid ibn al Walid. He was put in command by Rasulullah salla Llahu `alayhi wa sallam of an expedition to Banu Jadhimah. When Khalid asked them to accept Islam they responded by saying: “saba’na, saba’na”, a word which literally means “We have become Sabeans”, but which had come to be used in the general sense of changing one’s religion. To Khalid this was not sufficient evidence of their acceptance of Islam, and he gave the order for their execution. When the news of their execution reached Rasulullah salla Llahu `alayhi wa sallam he lifted his hands and said: “O Allah, I dissociate myself from what Khalid has done.”8 Although Rasulullah salla Llahu `alayhi wa sallam dissociated himself from the haste Khalid made himself guilty of, he did not punish him, since it was an error in judgement on his part. A very regrettable error it was, but it was still an error. It was for this reason that Rasulullah salla Llahu `alayhi wa sallam did not hesitate to give Khalid command over other expeditions as well.

Shortly after the Banu Jadhimah incident Rasulullah entrusted him with the mission to destroy the temple of the pagan goddess `Uzza at a place called Nakhlah.9 In Jumad al Ula in the year 10 A.H he was sent on a da`wah mission to Banu Harith ibn Ka`b, and they accepted Islam at his hands without a drop of blood being shed.10 It was also to Khalid that Rasulullah salla Llahu `alayhi wa sallam entrusted the expedition to Ukaydir ibn `Abd al Malik.11

Above all there was the day, at the battle of Mu’tah in the year 8 A.H, when Khalid ibn al Walid radiya Llahu `anhu would prove his valour and military genius by saving the day for Islam and the Muslim ummah in its first ever encounter with the Roman Empire. The three generals appointed by Rasulullah salla Llahu `alayhi wa sallam all attained martyrdom in succession, and the standard was taken over by the valiant Khalid, who through his sheer genius managed to save the honour of Islam by effecting a tactical withdrawal after what seemed like certain defeat. Rasulullah was informed by Allah of what had happened at Mu’tah, and although his eyes were filled with tears at the martyrdom of his beloved cousin Jafar ibn Abi Talib, his adopted son Zaid ibn Harithah and the poet `Abdullah ibn Rawahah radiya Llahu `anhum, he saw reason to give the Muslims in Madinah the glad tidings of Khalid’s victory, saying: “then the standard was taken up by a Sword from amongst the Swords of Allah, and upon his hands did Allah grant victory.”12

All of this shows that Rasulullah salla Llahu `alayhi wa sallam saw the Banu Jadhimah incident, as regrettable as it was, as a mistake on the part of Khalid. In not punishing Khalid for the execution of Malik ibn Nuwayrah, and not dismissing him from his post as commander, Sayyidina Abu Bakr radiya Llahu `anhu was thus completely justified. His interrogation of Khalid revealed that Khalid had committed an error of judgement, and the insistence of Sayyidina `Umar radiya Llahu `anhu that Khalid be dismissed was met by a resolute answer form Sayyidina Abu Bakr radiya Llahu `anhu: “I will not sheath the sword that was drawn by Allah.”13 Like Rasulullah salla Llahu `alayhi wa sallam did in the case of Banu Jadhimah, Sayyidina Abu Bakr radiya Llahu `anhu paid out blood money to Malik’s brother Mutammim, and ordered the release of all captives taken by Khalid.13

Have a read of the above analysis.

Ok, the above is an analysis based on Ahle Sunnah view regarding the killing of Malik bin Nuwayrah. Lets examine this analysis.

"a number of tribes in the Arabian peninsula turned away from Islam. With many of them apostasy was expressed in the form of a refusal to pay the zakat"

Note the above that 'apostasy was expressed" exactly how? "In the form of refusal to pay Zakah" The issue is 'refusal to pay Zakah' and nothing else. Point to be noted that everything else is fine, the belief in Tauheed, Nabuwath, Qeyamah, Fasting, Praying etc but they became apostate because of Zakah?

I mean they worshipped idols when Muhammad s.a.w declared his Messenger status. So they didn't turn back to their old ways because that would have made more sense and would have fitted in, but they are accused of apostasy because of Zakah and nothing else? Strange! When you want to accuse someone at least come up with a good story or get your story right.
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: iceman on July 07, 2018, 09:19:06 AM
". Malik ibn Nuwayrah was a member of this tribe, and he had been appointed zakat – collector of Banu Tamim by Rasulullah salla Llahu `alayhi wa sallam"

So basically Malik was a Zakah collector. So the Prophet s.a.w did have a system in place during his reign and time regarding the collection of Zakah money and what to do with it.

When Abu Bakr got in to authority and gained power he wanted to implement his own way and method of the collection of Zakah money and what to do with it.
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: iceman on July 07, 2018, 09:59:30 AM
"There were even more disturbing reports about him having started to speak ill about Rasulullah salla Llahu `alayhi wa sallam, and referring to him in derogatory terms"

So basically such a harsh and hard stance was taken against Malik and his tribe on reports based on gossip and rumour. Nobody decided to look into it and find out whether they were true or not.
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: iceman on July 07, 2018, 10:27:35 AM
There were even more disturbing reports about him having started to speak ill about Rasulullah salla Llahu `alayhi wa sallam, and referring to him in derogatory terms"

So basically such a harsh and hard stance was taken against Malik and his tribe on reports based on gossip and rumour. Nobody decided to look into it and find out whether they were true or not.

"Sayyidina Khalid radiya Llahu `anhu had orders from Sayyidina Abu Bakr radiya Llahu `anhu to inspect the practices of the people of the various locations he passed by in order to find out whether they were Muslims or whether they too, had forsaken Islam. If they heard the adhan and saw the people performing salah they could conclude that they were Muslims, and if they did not see them upholding the salah that would be an indication that they were not Muslim"

Ok so if the indication was that theyou were not Muslims then what? You massacre the whole tribe? This is exactly what the Romans did to put fear in people. The massacred whole villages and towns if anyone differed or disagreed with them. So were the Muslim rulers turning muslim rule into an empire?

"In the case of Banu Tamim, Sayyidina Khalid’s spies differed: some claimed that they did not make salah, while others claimed that they did"

How on earth did such a huge difference in reports emerge? A minor difference is understandable but such a huge difference in reports. And despite this Khalid went ahead with the offensive.
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: iceman on July 07, 2018, 10:56:49 AM
Sayyidina Abu Bakr radiya Llahu `anhu was thus completely justified. His interrogation of Khalid revealed that Khalid had committed an error of judgement"

Abu Bakr's interrogation of Khalid revealed that Khalid had committed an error. What killing people without proper investigation is called an error.So was this an grave error/mistake or did Malik really become an apostate What's the truth. What are we afraid of or what are we hiding.

"Sayyidina Abu Bakr radiya Llahu `anhu paid out blood money to Malik’s brother Mutammim, and ordered the release of all captives taken by Khalid"

Why pay out blood money. Such money is only paid out if you kill someone or someone gets killed accidently or unlawfully and unjustly.

So we have a mixture of things here. The case has been made confusing but to hide what or to protect whom.
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: zaid_ibn_ali on July 07, 2018, 03:10:41 PM
Iceman
Prove the above from the Quran.
Where in the Quran does it mention any of the above you are quoting?
I want proof from the Quran that Khalid ibn whalid (may Allah be pleased with him) killed anyone.
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: iceman on July 08, 2018, 10:45:12 AM
We have the following ruling out of many from the Qur'an;

Surah An Noor, verse 2.

"The [unmarried] woman or [unmarried] man found guilty of sexual intercourse - lash each one of them with a hundred lashes, and do not be taken by pity for them in the religion of Allah, if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. And let a group of the believers witness their punishment."

but absolutely nothing regarding a more serious punishment (capital punishment) regarding a more serious crime of not paying/giving Zakah?

Inshallah we will discuss and expose more flaws and dents in these gents belief and faith.
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: iceman on July 08, 2018, 11:33:22 AM
Have a look at the following link,

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.mohammedamin.com/Community_issues/Muslims_misguided_enough_to_abandon_Islam_are_free_to_do_so.html&ved=2ahUKEwjwoerHpY_cAhWIDsAKHQ-DAyoQFjAFegQIBRAB&usg=AOvVaw0qCfa0mx6ObSotQ7-TQZJK
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: zaid_ibn_ali on July 08, 2018, 11:48:47 AM
We have the following ruling out of many from the Qur'an;

Surah An Noor, verse 2.

"The [unmarried] woman or [unmarried] man found guilty of sexual intercourse - lash each one of them with a hundred lashes, and do not be taken by pity for them in the religion of Allah, if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. And let a group of the believers witness their punishment."

but absolutely nothing regarding a more serious punishment (capital punishment) regarding a more serious crime of not paying/giving Zakah?

Inshallah we will discuss and expose more flaws and dents in these gents belief and faith.

Where does it mention Abu Bakr or Khalid ibn Whalid (may Allah be pleased with them both)?

I want proof from the Quran condemning both of these sahaba for the actions they did.
Which verse says khalid killed malik?

Where is your proof from the Quran that khalid even touched malik?
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: iceman on July 08, 2018, 05:11:14 PM
Take a look at the following which is a piece of the opening post of this thread by the one who started the thread,

'Having established the background, let us now introduce the case of Malik bin Nuwayrah.  Known for actually violating the Islamic injunction of Zakat, Malik sought to do away with Zakat through his logic and actions.  In other words, Malik adopted a different view or belief towards Zakat and urged others to do the same (which was to stop paying the Zakat).  So why is it that Shias (rightfully) condemn Yazeed for violating the Shariah but type "radhiAllahu anhu" after they make mention of Malik bin Nuwayrah, a man whose intent to change the Shariah has been well-established?'

Notice this bit;

'Known for actually violating the Islamic injunction of Zakat"

How did Malik violate And where does it say that you are deemed Wajib Ul Qatal. If you violate the Islamic injunction of Zakah then you are a definite subject to capital punishment.

And the gents can't come up with one single indication from the Qur'an to back this up.

Even the armed convoy that was sent under the command of Khalid bin Waleed greatly differed on the religious status of Malik and his tribe. Some witnessed that they were Muslims and complained to the Caliph of Malik’s actions.

Was Malik summoned by the Caliph and after interrogation was a decision reached by the Caliph that Khalid made a serious error by killing Muslims unlawfully.

Did the Caliph pay Qisas to Malik's brother Mutammim. First of all you need to get your story right.
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: zaid_ibn_ali on July 08, 2018, 05:50:15 PM
Iceman

I ask again:

Where is the proof from the Quran that khalid or his men even laid a finger on malik?

You cannot answer.

I used your own silly methodology on you & you could not reply.

Destroyed by your own stupidity.

Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: iceman on July 08, 2018, 11:44:55 PM
Iceman

I ask again:

Where is the proof from the Quran that khalid or his men even laid a finger on malik?

You cannot answer.

I used your own silly methodology on you & you could not reply.

Destroyed by your own stupidity.

Qur'an was absolutely and completely revealed during the Prophet's s.a.w time and you want evidence from the Quran of incidents and events that took place after it was revealed.  😊 Surprised at your aql. I don't know what you're trying to prove but what a ridiculous example. Now here's mine again.

Malik ibn Nuwayrah was accused of apostasy because he refused to give Zakah along with his tribe. What is the Islamic ruling concerning this. I'm asking about the Islamic ruling and not the rulers ruling. Don't continue to  dance around it. Either answer or show some shame and decency by slipping away.
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: muslim720 on July 09, 2018, 12:12:53 AM
How did Malik violate And where does it say that you are deemed Wajib Ul Qatal. If you violate the Islamic injunction of Zakah then you are a definite subject to capital punishment.

And the gents can't come up with one single indication from the Qur'an to back this up.

Therefore, according to Conman, Imam Jafar As-Sadiq (ra) - through these statements found in Al-Kafi - was lying upon the Qur'an.

1.  "The adulterer will be stoned and the one who refuses to pay the Zakah will get beheaded".

2.  "Who refuses to pay even a single ounce of the Zakah is not a believer nor a Muslim and this is the statement of Him (Allah), may He be glorified and exalted".

Stand by Malik at the cost of declaring your own "infallible Imam" to be a liar.  Or, stand by the truth without accusing your "infallible Imam" of lying.
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: zaid_ibn_ali on July 09, 2018, 12:01:23 PM
Qur'an was absolutely and completely revealed during the Prophet's s.a.w time and you want evidence from the Quran of incidents and events that took place after it was revealed.  😊 Surprised at your aql. I don't know what you're trying to prove but what a ridiculous example. Now here's mine again.

Malik ibn Nuwayrah was accused of apostasy because he refused to give Zakah along with his tribe. What is the Islamic ruling concerning this. I'm asking about the Islamic ruling and not the rulers ruling. Don't continue to  dance around it. Either answer or show some shame and decency by slipping away.

You wanted proof from the Quran only. I asked for the same thing.

So now you’re saying we need to look outside of the Quran?
😂😂😂😃😃😃



Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: iceman on July 09, 2018, 07:07:24 PM
You wanted proof from the Quran only. I asked for the same thing.

So now you’re saying we need to look outside of the Quran?
😂😂😂😃😃😃

"You wanted proof from the Quran only. I asked for the same thing"

Where did I say that. Now you've moved on from DANCING AROUND to PLAYING AROUND. You're asking me to prove an incident from the Qur'an that took place after the Messenger's s.a.w death. I'm asking you to prove from the Qur'an that if you don't pay or give Zakah then you are Wajib Ul Qatal, subject to capital punishment.

"So now you’re saying we need to look outside of the Quran"

Where did I say that? When it comes to Shia Imamah, which by the way you haven't bothered to study so that's the reason why you're not aware of it, you want to stay inside the Qur'an,

but when it comes to capital punishment concerning not paying or giving Zakah then you want to just float outside the Qur'an. Put down some principles and lay down standards if you have any that is.
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: iceman on July 09, 2018, 07:26:35 PM
You are going way off thread and subject. We are only discussing two things here and that is the martyrdom of Hussain and how this saved Islam and the killing of Malik bin Nuwayrah and why Shias are silent in condemning Malik.

Hussain refused to give allegiance to Yazeed bin Muawiyah and he was determined to get Hussain's allegiance. WHY I've questioned you this but you gents seem to be either hesitant or afraid to get involved in anything I put forward. I wonder why.

Why was Yazeed so determined to get Hussain to swear allegiance and why did Hussain absolutely and totally refuse to give allegiance.

What is the exact Ahle Sunah view on the killing of Malik. Did Malik become apostate along with his tribe. If yes then what is the ISLAMIC RULING for an apostate. What does the Qur'an say.

Why was there difference in the armed convoy under Khalid’s command, some witnessed and believed that Malik and his tribe were still Muslims and the reports of them becoming apostate weren't true. Others differed.

Why was the first Caliph told that they were Muslims and Khalid acted hastily and should be held accountable for the unlawful killing. According to this did the Caliph summon Khalid and interrogate him over this.

Did the Caliph reach the decision that Khalid committed a grave error and was blood money (Qisas) given to Malik's brother (Mutammim).

THIS IS WHAT YOU GENTS NEED TO DISCUSS BUT ARE EITHER TOO HESITANT OR AFRAID. WHAT'S THE MATTER? NOT ACADEMIC ENOUGH, IS THAT THE EXCUSE. OR DO YOU HAVE A BETTER ONE THIS TIME AROUND.
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: iceman on July 09, 2018, 09:04:49 PM
There is no compulsion in religion. Verily, the right path has become distinct from the wrong path. لاَ إِكْرَاهَ فِي الدِّينِ (There is no compulsion in religion), meaning, "Do not force anyone to become Muslim, for Islam is plain and clear, and its proofs and evidence are plain and clear.

But when it comes to apostasy and the reasons and accusations of apostasy that have been put forward, when asked about proof of indication from the same source (Qur'an) then the gents start jumping up and down.
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: zaid_ibn_ali on July 09, 2018, 10:17:33 PM
Iceman
Ooh did I touch a nerve?😂😂😂😂
You seem angry😁😁😁

Anyway, zakat is mentioned in the Quran. Not every detail of how it is collected is mentioned in the Quran. Just like not detail is mentioned in the Quran like khalid laying a finger on malik.
Ain’t that right?😂😂😁😂

Its fun trolling a troll but showing the troll how its done properly😉
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: iceman on July 10, 2018, 04:11:19 PM
Iceman
Ooh did I touch a nerve?😂😂😂😂
You seem angry😁😁😁

Anyway, zakat is mentioned in the Quran. Not every detail of how it is collected is mentioned in the Quran. Just like not detail is mentioned in the Quran like khalid laying a finger on malik.
Ain’t that right?😂😂😁😂

Its fun trolling a troll but showing the troll how its done properly😉

That's fine 😊 And if you don't pay or give Zakah then your life is taken from you. It's Allah's job to decide who's life should be taken and when and why, right? Where did Allah say that if you don't pay or give Zakah then the ruler/Caliph of the time has the right to take your life away from you. 😊
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: Noor-us-Sunnah on July 10, 2018, 10:33:45 PM
That's fine 😊 And if you don't pay or give Zakah then your life is taken from you. It's Allah's job to decide who's life should be taken and when and why, right? Where did Allah say that if you don't pay or give Zakah then the ruler/Caliph of the time has the right to take your life away from you. 😊

Did Allah say that to kill people who claimed divinity for Ali(ra). ?
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: iceman on July 10, 2018, 11:51:55 PM
Did Allah say that to kill people who claimed divinity for Ali(ra). ?

People as you can see there is still no answer. They're doing their best to save themselves by dodging the questions time and time again.
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: muslim720 on July 11, 2018, 04:40:45 AM
Furoo Al-Kafi, Volume 3, H 5690, Ch. 1, h 3
A number of our people have narrated from Sahl ibn Ziyad from Ahmad ibn Muhammad ibn abu Nasr from Hammad ibn ‘Uthman
from Rifa‘ah ibn Musa who has said the following: “I heard abu ‘Abd Allah, ‘Alayhi al-Salam, say, ‘No other obligation that Allah has made compulsory upon this nation is of more intensity than zakat.  In the matter of zakat most of them face their destruction.”

Maybe we can conclude that the Imam (ra) was lying because Conman can never lie!
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: zaid_ibn_ali on July 11, 2018, 09:50:42 AM
Iceman:

Whenever a proof is presented you say you want quote from Quran only or you ignore the shia hadeeth.

Lets have a bit of fun shall we.

You want proof regarding zakat collected by force.

My question is who collected zakat by force?

Prove to me AbuBakr or Khalid did this?

Proof please.

I will play you at your own game.
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: Noor-us-Sunnah on July 11, 2018, 09:59:05 AM
People as you can see there is still no answer. They're doing their best to save themselves by dodging the questions time and time again.

The point is you are purposely acting like an idiot, to save yourself from humiliation. Because you know that if you answer the question that Ali(ra) killed people for claiming his divinity. Then what you claim would befall on Ali(ra as well. Hence you choose to dodge this point as much as possible.

I bet even in next post you will dodge it, because you are too scared to admit the truth.
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: iceman on July 11, 2018, 08:01:48 PM
Any indication from the Qur'an, still no answer. 😊 So we're just going by incidents and reports but nothing from Allah in the Qur'an about capital punishment. Gents it seems to me this is a lost argument and no case for you.
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: Noor-us-Sunnah on July 11, 2018, 09:13:17 PM
Any indication from the Qur'an, still no answer. 😊 So we're just going by incidents and reports but nothing from Allah in the Qur'an about capital punishment. Gents it seems to me this is a lost argument and no case for you.

Your argument is meaningless. You are trying to discredit the caliphate of Abubakr(as) for the action he took during his Caliphate. By your standard you even discredit the caliphate of Ali(as) since he killed people for claiming his divinity. So what’s the point?
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: iceman on July 11, 2018, 09:56:11 PM
Your argument is meaningless. You are trying to discredit the caliphate of Abubakr(as) for the action he took during his Caliphate. By your standard you even discredit the caliphate of Ali(as) since he killed people for claiming his divinity. So what’s the point?

I'm not discrediting anybody. You're accusing me of nonsense. And let me tell you what THE POINT is. Was that the ruler's decision based on governance or was it the ruler's decision based on Shariah? That's all I'm asking. So stop dancing around it.
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: Noor-us-Sunnah on July 11, 2018, 10:20:01 PM
I'm not discrediting anybody. You're accusing me of nonsense. And let me tell you what THE POINT is. Was that the ruler's decision based on governance or was it the ruler's decision based on Shariah? That's all I'm asking. So stop dancing around it.

It’s you who is dancing and dodging.

Why are you scared to answer the question.

Ali killing people for claiming his divinity, was it proven from  Quran or not ?

Come on mate, don’t be sacred to answer. Or else don’t dare question other rulers when you can’t answer about the one whom you admire.
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: iceman on July 11, 2018, 11:24:23 PM
It’s you who is dancing and dodging.

Why are you scared to answer the question.

Ali killing people for claiming his divinity, was it proven from  Quran or not ?

Come on mate, don’t be sacred to answer. Or else don’t dare question other rulers when you can’t answer about the one whom you admire.

Again stop putting words in my mouth and accusing me of nonsense based on your assumption. RULER, be it any and nothing to do with favouritism or admire which is in your world, there decision of capital punishment was it based on governance on Shariah law? Come on, time to own up.
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: zaid_ibn_ali on July 11, 2018, 11:55:07 PM
Any indication from the Qur'an, still no answer. 😊 So we're just going by incidents and reports but nothing from Allah in the Qur'an about capital punishment. Gents it seems to me this is a lost argument and no case for you.

Your allegations have no basis from the Quran. You admitted they are not in the Quran.
So how can you demand us to answer these non Quranic allegations with proofs from the Quran only?
How more absurd can your stupidity get?😂😂😂😂😂
You shot yourself in the foot. Go ahead please put yourself out of misery😂😂😂😂
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: iceman on July 12, 2018, 01:50:31 AM
Your allegations have no basis from the Quran. You admitted they are not in the Quran.
So how can you demand us to answer these non Quranic allegations with proofs from the Quran only?
How more absurd can your stupidity get?😂😂😂😂😂
You shot yourself in the foot. Go ahead please put yourself out of misery😂😂😂😂

The decision Abu Bakr made and how Khalid acted was this due to governance or Shariah law?

And did Abu Bakr decide that Khalid made a grave error in killing Malik and did he pay blood money to Mutammim?

Stick to something rather than dancing to every tune. What was it.
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: iceman on July 12, 2018, 02:31:07 AM
https://youtu.be/jzdaVL8u4Jc
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: Noor-us-Sunnah on July 12, 2018, 07:47:16 AM
Again stop putting words in my mouth and accusing me of nonsense based on your assumption. RULER, be it any and nothing to do with favouritism or admire which is in your world, there decision of capital punishment was it based on governance on Shariah law? Come on, time to own up.

So you mean both Ali and Abu Bakr were wrong.?
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: zaid_ibn_ali on July 12, 2018, 10:20:12 AM
The decision Abu Bakr made and how Khalid acted was this due to governance or Shariah law?

And did Abu Bakr decide that Khalid made a grave error in killing Malik and did he pay blood money to Mutammim?

Stick to something rather than dancing to every tune. What was it.

You are all over the place.

You have brought up a greivance against Abu Bakr & Khalid (may Allah be pleased with them both), a greivance which you did not pick out from the Quran. The story is not in the Quran. But the issue is that you want us to prove they were right from the Quran only.
Be consistent.
I can reject this case as it was never in the Quran in the first place so I can say I do not see it as an important matter.
See this is what happens when you decide to be a Quranist only when it suits you.
Your case & greivance is rejected. There is no case to answer.

We are not Quranists only but I am simply shutting your own file with your own gloves.

Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: iceman on July 12, 2018, 05:40:46 PM
You are all over the place.

You have brought up a greivance against Abu Bakr & Khalid (may Allah be pleased with them both), a greivance which you did not pick out from the Quran. The story is not in the Quran. But the issue is that you want us to prove they were right from the Quran only.
Be consistent.
I can reject this case as it was never in the Quran in the first place so I can say I do not see it as an important matter.
See this is what happens when you decide to be a Quranist only when it suits you.
Your case & greivance is rejected. There is no case to answer.

We are not Quranists only but I am simply shutting your own file with your own gloves.

So why don't you put me in one place then. What's keeping you. Here is another chance at it. Please do build up the courage this time.

Malik bin Nuwayrah along with members of his tribe were killed. This is a historical fact and has to do with history books. A fact known and accepted by all.  Who killed him? Khalid bin Waleed and the armed convoy under his command. Who sent him? The first Caliph of the Muslims, Abu Bakr bin Kuafah. What was Khalid and his convoys mission? To deal with those tribes who refused to pay or give Zakah. This is to do with Muslim history in early Islam and has to do with history books and not the Qur'an, based on the demand which you so childishly put forward.

I'll continue this.
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: zaid_ibn_ali on July 12, 2018, 06:13:42 PM
So why don't you put me in one place then. What's keeping you. Here is another chance at it. Please do build up the courage this time.

Malik bin Nuwayrah along with members of his tribe were killed. This is a historical fact and has to do with history books. A fact known and accepted by all.  Who killed him? Khalid bin Waleed and the armed convoy under his command. Who sent him? The first Caliph of the Muslims, Abu Bakr bin Kuafah. What was Khalid and his convoys mission? To deal with those tribes who refused to pay or give Zakah. This is to do with Muslim history in early Islam and has to do with history books and not the Qur'an, based on the demand which you so childishly put forward.

I'll continue this.

Ah and there you go.
You finally took the plunge that I baited you.
See iceman you played yourself.
You are now relying on history books as evidence.Well we already proved that authentic shia history says Ali (may Allah be pleased with him) also had his reps ENFORCE the collection of zakat.

So if Abu Bakr & khalid (may Allah be pleased with them) contradicted the Quran (which is your view & not ours) then so did Ali (may Allah be pleased with him).




Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: iceman on July 12, 2018, 07:43:31 PM
Ah and there you go.
You finally took the plunge that I baited you.
See iceman you played yourself.
You are now relying on history books as evidence.Well we already proved that authentic shia history says Ali (may Allah be pleased with him) also had his reps ENFORCE the collection of zakat.

So if Abu Bakr & khalid (may Allah be pleased with them) contradicted the Quran (which is your view & not ours) then so did Ali (may Allah be pleased with him).

Wait for it, wait for it, steady on. The killing of Malik, whether he was killed or not, depends on history but why was he killed and what was the reason behind it is a different story altogether.

Now why was Malik killed? Because he refused to pay or give Zakah. Well that's the accusation on him. There are two things here,

1, Can the ruler/govner/Caliph of the time force people to give or pay Zakah? Is Zakah something you give or take? Is Zakah obligatory and must be taken or obligatory and must be given.

2, If you refuse to give or pay Zakah then are you subject to capital punishment? If yes then is this based on governance or Shariah law?

In the case of Malik you believe that he was killed based on refusing to give or pay Zakah. This means he was Wajib Ul Qatal in other words subject to capital punishment.

My question is the decision of capital punishment, the right to take Malik's life on the crime of refusing to pay Zakah. Was this crime against the government, the state? Or was it an offence against Shariah law.

If it was a crime an offence against the state then that is fine and Qur'an has nothing to do with it. But if it's a crime an offence against Shariah law and this is subject to capital punishment then it's got everything to do with the Qur'an.   

What seems to be bugging you?
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: iceman on July 12, 2018, 07:48:49 PM
Ah and there you go.
You finally took the plunge that I baited you.
See iceman you played yourself.
You are now relying on history books as evidence.Well we already proved that authentic shia history says Ali (may Allah be pleased with him) also had his reps ENFORCE the collection of zakat.

So if Abu Bakr & khalid (may Allah be pleased with them) contradicted the Quran (which is your view & not ours) then so did Ali (may Allah be pleased with him).

"So if Abu Bakr & khalid (may Allah be pleased with them) contradicted the Quran (which is your view & not ours) then so did Ali (may Allah be pleased with him)"

Excuse me, are you saying Ali killed someone or some people or ordered their execution because they refused to pay or give Zakah?

Getting someone to collect zakah is not the issue. The issue is executing someone or ordering their execution because they refused to hand over the Zakah money or they refuse to pay or give Zakah and calling the execution a religious ruling. This needs to but in fact has to be from the Qur'an.
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: zaid_ibn_ali on July 12, 2018, 08:40:17 PM
"So if Abu Bakr & khalid (may Allah be pleased with them) contradicted the Quran (which is your view & not ours) then so did Ali (may Allah be pleased with him)"

Excuse me, are you saying Ali killed someone or some people or ordered their execution because they refused to pay or give Zakah?

Getting someone to collect zakah is not the issue. The issue is executing someone or ordering their execution because they refused to hand over the Zakah money or they refuse to pay or give Zakah and calling the execution a religious ruling. This needs to but in fact has to be from the Qur'an.

The issue was you saying no one can force anyone to pay zakat.
You tried to go Quranist on this point but then when I turned the tables on you, then you decided we need to accept the history books.
So history testifies both the 1st & 4th caliph had reps ENFORCE the collection.
Also the Imams historically narrated death for the person who refuses to pay zakat. This was historically authenticated by your main scholars.

Not that difficult is it?


Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: iceman on July 12, 2018, 10:13:05 PM
The issue was you saying no one can force anyone to pay zakat.
You tried to go Quranist on this point but then when I turned the tables on you, then you decided we need to accept the history books.
So history testifies both the 1st & 4th caliph had reps ENFORCE the collection.
Also the Imams historically narrated death for the person who refuses to pay zakat. This was historically authenticated by your main scholars.

Not that difficult is it?

Ok, I've given you gents chance after chance after chance and you're still running. It ain't difficult for me since I'm giving it to you. You're the ones having problems receiving and addressing it.
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: zaid_ibn_ali on July 12, 2018, 10:26:21 PM
Ok, I've given you gents chance after chance after chance and you're still running. It ain't difficult for me since I'm giving it to you. You're the ones having problems receiving and addressing it.

Both sunni & shia believe in the sources of Islamic law being Quran & Sunnah.
We proved from your ‘sunnah’.
You decided to turn Quranist but then backfired badly on you.
Whichever methodolog you try to use, you are exposed.

ICEMAN MELTED.

Just a tiny puddle now.
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: iceman on July 12, 2018, 11:01:18 PM
Both sunni & shia believe in the sources of Islamic law being Quran & Sunnah.
We proved from your ‘sunnah’.
You decided to turn Quranist but then backfired badly on you.
Whichever methodolog you try to use, you are exposed.

ICEMAN MELTED.

Just a tiny puddle now.

You can't even make up your mind whether Malik was killed lawfully or unlawfully. Was Malik killed according to Shariah law or did Khalid kill him through error and Abu Bakr gave blood money (Qisas/compensation) to Malik's brother Mutammim. So what possibly can you know and say about Shariah law.

I know this is difficult and complicated for you since such discussion is well above your intellectual level. Don't take it too personally since that's how it's coming out as. Let me make it simple for you.

"Both sunni & shia believe in the sources of Islamic law being Quran & Sunnah"

Ok lets have it your way. Prove to me through Qur'an and Sunnah that Zakah collectors have the right to force people to give Zakah and they have the right to take Zakah by force. Otherwise those who refuse to give Zakah or hand over Zakah are subject to execution by Shariah law.

Is this simple enough for you. You can run as far and as much as you want. But you can't escape or hide. 😊 Now lets see if you come up with an academic and intellectual response this time or give the same childish response as usual.
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: zaid_ibn_ali on July 12, 2018, 11:37:59 PM
You can't even make up your mind whether Malik was killed lawfully or unlawfully. Was Malik killed according to Shariah law or did Khalid kill him through error and Abu Bakr gave blood money (Qisas/compensation) to Malik's brother Mutammim. So what possibly can you know and say about Shariah law.

I know this is difficult and complicated for you since such discussion is well above your intellectual level. Don't take it too personally since that's how it's coming out as. Let me make it simple for you.

"Both sunni & shia believe in the sources of Islamic law being Quran & Sunnah"

Ok lets have it your way. Prove to me through Qur'an and Sunnah that Zakah collectors have the right to force people to give Zakah and they have the right to take Zakah by force. Otherwise those who refuse to give Zakah or hand over Zakah are subject to execution by Shariah law.

Is this simple enough for you. You can run as far and as much as you want. But you can't escape or hide. 😊 Now lets see if you come up with an academic and intellectual response this time or give the same childish response as usual.

You must have memory loss

Myself & other brothers have already demonstrated Ali (may Allah be pleased with him) ENFORCED zakat collection & the Imam said death for one who refuses to pay zakat.

This game of you getting KO’d again & again is fun!



Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: iceman on July 13, 2018, 02:03:58 AM
You must have memory loss

Myself & other brothers have already demonstrated Ali (may Allah be pleased with him) ENFORCED zakat collection & the Imam said death for one who refuses to pay zakat.

This game of you getting KO’d again & again is fun!

My memory is far sharper than you can ever think of. I can and have put things forward from history books regarding various issues and matters and so have others but your kind have always seen it with suspicion and questioned its authenticity.

But you want me to automatically accept what ever you put forward. Can you confirm the matter from the Qur'an? Allow me to answer it for you now, No you absolutely can't.
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: muslim720 on July 13, 2018, 03:03:19 AM
In an event that would rival the FIFA World Cup, Summer Olympics and Winter Olympics, we have seen unparalleled display of verbal gymnastics, changing goal posts, dancing around the point, etc.  Clearly the gold medal in each category goes to Iceman.  In fact, the silver and bronze should also be handed to him since there are no other participants behind him (in those categories) anywhere in sight.

Having said that, we have seen the Qur'an mandate Zakat.  It was childish of Iceman to hold on to the term "give" and not "pay" because he forgets that Qur'an is in Arabic, not English.  And then I showed him that the word "pay" is also used in conjunction to Zakat in the Qur'an.

The Qur'an stipulates a portion of the Zakat to the one who collects it, therefore, collection of Zakat necessitates an authoritative body to undertake the task.  Being the dimwit he is, since I met his challenge using the same article he copy-posted blindly (without realizing that his challenge of a Qur'anic verse is right there in the article), I thought he would have some decency to acknowledge it.  He barreled down his path of blind refusal of facts.

Allegedly "infallible", I showed him the words of his own Imams (ra) saying that refusal to pay Zakat is tantamount to kufr, punishable by death.  In fact, the Imam (ra) said that nothing is as highly stressed as Zakat.  Again, Iceman kept ignoring the facts and modified his challenge to save some face. 

I have no regrets except I deeply regret saying things about his mother.  It took me less than an hour to feel terrible for what I had typed; the khutbah (that very day) had to do with akhlaq.  If Iceman forgives me, I will try to stay out of his way so long as he stays out of mine.
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: Mythbuster1 on July 13, 2018, 02:33:28 PM
In an event that would rival the FIFA World Cup, Summer Olympics and Winter Olympics, we have seen unparalleled display of verbal gymnastics, changing goal posts, dancing around the point, etc.  Clearly the gold medal in each category goes to Iceman.  In fact, the silver and bronze should also be handed to him since there are no other participants behind him (in those categories) anywhere in sight.

Having said that, we have seen the Qur'an mandate Zakat.  It was childish of Iceman to hold on to the term "give" and not "pay" because he forgets that Qur'an is in Arabic, not English.  And then I showed him that the word "pay" is also used in conjunction to Zakat in the Qur'an.

The Qur'an stipulates a portion of the Zakat to the one who collects it, therefore, collection of Zakat necessitates an authoritative body to undertake the task.  Being the dimwit he is, since I met his challenge using the same article he copy-posted blindly (without realizing that his challenge of a Qur'anic verse is right there in the article), I thought he would have some decency to acknowledge it.  He barreled down his path of blind refusal of facts.

Allegedly "infallible", I showed him the words of his own Imams (ra) saying that refusal to pay Zakat is tantamount to kufr, punishable by death.  In fact, the Imam (ra) said that nothing is as highly stressed as Zakat.  Again, Iceman kept ignoring the facts and modified his challenge to save some face. 

I have no regrets except I deeply regret saying things about his mother.  It took me less than an hour to feel terrible for what I had typed; the khutbah (that very day) had to do with akhlaq.  If Iceman forgives me, I will try to stay out of his way so long as he stays out of mine.


The guy ameen aka icepop man is a great gymnast he has been doing that with verses of the Quran which he THINKS relate to some kinda divinity imarmite concept.........his 2 brain cells don’t seem to discharge any kind of intelligence.
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: iceman on July 13, 2018, 07:30:25 PM
To the viewers, as you can clearly see people still no answer what so ever. Just humiliating and insulting comments pouring in as usual. Nothing out of the ordinary.

The first Caliph (Abu Bakr bin Kuafah) sends an armed convoy under the command of Khalid bin Waleed to deal with a situation just as the sixth Caliph (Yazeed bin Muawiyah) also sent an armed convoy under the command of Ubaidullah bin Ziyaad to deal with the situation. Note the similarities that one refused to hand over the Zakah money and the other refused to swear allegiance.

Now note the perspective that they hold here, the situation between Malik bin Nuwayrah and Khalid bin Waleed is given the touch of religion that the issue had to do with Islam where as the situation between Hussain bin Ali and Ubaidallah bin Ziyaad is given the touch of politics and it had nothing to do with Islam.

Look at the double standards they hold and the twist in both situations.
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: Mythbuster1 on July 14, 2018, 09:10:11 AM
To the viewers, as you can clearly see people still no answer what so ever. Just humiliating and insulting comments pouring in as usual. Nothing out of the ordinary.

The first Caliph (Abu Bakr bin Kuafah) sends an armed convoy under the command of Khalid bin Waleed to deal with a situation just as the sixth Caliph (Yazeed bin Muawiyah) also sent an armed convoy under the command of Ubaidullah bin Ziyaad to deal with the situation. Note the similarities that one refused to hand over the Zakah money and the other refused to swear allegiance.

Now note the perspective that they hold here, the situation between Malik bin Nuwayrah and Khalid bin Waleed is given the touch of religion that the issue had to do with Islam where as the situation between Hussain bin Ali and Ubaidallah bin Ziyaad is given the touch of politics and it had nothing to do with Islam.

Look at the double standards they hold and the twist in both situations.

Lol you got dealt with get over it..........Hussein ra fought to not swear allegiance to yazeed?
Lol well why did Hussein ra ask for 3 things if granted He will walk away?
Posting vids doesn’t help, try THINKING a bit harder cos this one thing has turned your conspiracy theory of saving Islam upside down.

Oh my iceman is stuck between a rock and a hard place😂

Trying his best to link 2 seperated issues as 1 lol

No wonder you are a laughing stock in here and has been as ameen previously, you have no solid arguments or proofs just empty words......or some vids you picked up cos of the word SAVE 😂😂😂😂😂👍👍
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: iceman on July 14, 2018, 12:40:45 PM
Lol you got dealt with get over it..........Hussein ra fought to not swear allegiance to yazeed?
Lol well why did Hussein ra ask for 3 things if granted He will walk away?
Posting vids doesn’t help, try THINKING a bit harder cos this one thing has turned your conspiracy theory of saving Islam upside down.

Oh my iceman is stuck between a rock and a hard place😂

Trying his best to link 2 seperated issues as 1 lol

No wonder you are a laughing stock in here and has been as ameen previously, you have no solid arguments or proofs just empty words......or some vids you picked up cos of the word SAVE 😂😂😂😂😂👍👍

😊 Let the viewers be the judge of that. How intellectual and academic you guys are can clearly be seen through your childish posts.
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: zaid_ibn_ali on July 14, 2018, 02:08:17 PM
Everyone has made their mind up.
I don’t think even a shia would want you to carry on.
You’re just embarrassing your sect.
Why is it the numbskulls from shia come here? Surely this is at least one shia who can discuss in an academic serious manner?
Or maybe those shia who actually have a brain cell realise they have no chance here as they know they will get refuted.
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: iceman on July 14, 2018, 05:06:34 PM
Everyone has made their mind up.
I don’t think even a shia would want you to carry on.
You’re just embarrassing your sect.
Why is it the numbskulls from shia come here? Surely this is at least one shia who can discuss in an academic serious manner?
Or maybe those shia who actually have a brain cell realise they have no chance here as they know they will get refuted.

"Everyone has made their mind up"

Yeh sure. This tells that you're all of the same nature and stance. Some come out with a bit more filth, rudeness and absurd behaviour than the others. That's the only difference.

You're not in it to discuss and debate but just to cause chaos, confusion and fitna between the Muslims by increasing sectarian rife. How intellectual and academic you are can be very clearly seen through your childish and immature posts.

Honestly a bunch of kids can behave and respond better than this in this day and age. Do yourselves a favour and honestly and truly take a damn good look at yourselves.

It doesn't matter what you say or think of me and how you behave towards me and my faith, one thing is clear that my manners and nature are very different then yours.

You're definitely dealing with a Shia (me) but I'm not dealing with Sunnis here, oh no. I come from a mixed community and relations of both Shias and Sunnis. So I know the manners and nature of true Sunnis.

You're just a bunch of idiots using the Ahle Sunah platform to cause division and hated amongst Muslims. You dig, throw dirt and then speak ill about the Shias so they in return will attack the Ahle Sunah which you're actually using and hiding behind.
 
That's the truth. Now you can altogether make up what ever bloody mind you want.
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: iceman on July 20, 2018, 10:03:48 AM
Qisas is an  arabic term it means “Legal Retaliation," and follows the principle of an eye for an eye. This is the second type of punishment in Islamic Law.  This is where the perpetrator of the crime is punished with the same injury that he caused to the victim.  If the criminal killed the victim, then he is killed.  If he cut off or injured a limb of the victim, then his own limb will be cut off or injured if it is possible without killing the criminal.

Allah Almighty says:

“O you who believe, retribution is prescribed for you in the case of murder...”

But nothing in the Qur'an at all about the death penalty for refusing to pay Zakah. Also nothing in the Qur'an the Caliphs/rulers have the right to impose Zakah collectors and give them the ultimate right to force people to pay Zakah or behead them 😊
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: Hani on July 21, 2018, 04:49:13 AM
Qisas is an  arabic term it means “Legal Retaliation," and follows the principle of an eye for an eye. This is the second type of punishment in Islamic Law.  This is where the perpetrator of the crime is punished with the same injury that he caused to the victim.  If the criminal killed the victim, then he is killed.  If he cut off or injured a limb of the victim, then his own limb will be cut off or injured if it is possible without killing the criminal.

Allah Almighty says:

“O you who believe, retribution is prescribed for you in the case of murder...”

But nothing in the Qur'an at all about the death penalty for refusing to pay Zakah. Also nothing in the Qur'an the Caliphs/rulers have the right to impose Zakah collectors and give them the ultimate right to force people to pay Zakah or behead them 😊

Breaking the law and resisting arrest can be dealt with by force. This is the law even here in the US and other first world countries. This was the law in Abu Bakr's government and as leader he has the full authority to enforce laws by force. Qur'an says to obey those in authority.
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: iceman on July 21, 2018, 04:52:44 PM
Breaking the law and resisting arrest can be dealt with by force. This is the law even here in the US and other first world countries. This was the law in Abu Bakr's government and as leader he has the full authority to enforce laws by force. Qur'an says to obey those in authority.

At last, finally a mature response without sarcasm, insult and being funny and playful. At least we're getting somewhere.

"Breaking the law and resisting arrest can be dealt with by force"

Ok, which law and whos law? The decision Abu Bakr made and the action that Khalid carried out was that based on Shariah law or law of the government?

"This was the law in Abu Bakr's government and as leader he has the full authority to enforce laws by force. Qur'an says to obey those in authority"

Ok then what about the 6th Caliph of the Muslims, Yazeed Ibne Muawiyah and his governor Ubaidullah Ibne Ziyaad? Where does their governmental law and rights go as a Caliph and his acting governor and commander according to your philosophy?

The majority of tabe'een and Sahaba, scholars and noble people accepted and gave allegiance to Yazeed, was his use of force against those who resisted justified and lawful?

You said about Abu Bakr,
"and as leader he has the full authority to enforce laws by force"
What about Yazeed? Does the same apply to him? If not then why?

You said, "Qur'an says to obey those in authority" this is exactly what the armed convoy under the command of Ubaidullah Ibne Ziyaad did and believed in.

I would definitely like an intellectual and constructive response. Lets see if I get one this time.

Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: Abu Muhammad on July 21, 2018, 05:05:45 PM
Qisas is an  arabic term it means “Legal Retaliation," and follows the principle of an eye for an eye. This is the second type of punishment in Islamic Law.  This is where the perpetrator of the crime is punished with the same injury that he caused to the victim.  If the criminal killed the victim, then he is killed.  If he cut off or injured a limb of the victim, then his own limb will be cut off or injured if it is possible without killing the criminal.

Allah Almighty says:

“O you who believe, retribution is prescribed for you in the case of murder...”

But nothing in the Qur'an at all about the death penalty for refusing to pay Zakah. Also nothing in the Qur'an the Caliphs/rulers have the right to impose Zakah collectors and give them the ultimate right to force people to pay Zakah or behead them 😊

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_in_Iran

"Capital punishment is a legal penalty in Iran.[1] Crimes punishable by death include murder; rape; child molestation; sodomy; drug trafficking; armed robbery; kidnapping; terrorism; burglary; pedophilia; homosexuality; incestuous relations; fornication; prohibited sexual relations; sexual misconduct; prostitution[2][3]; plotting to overthrow the Islamic regime; political dissidence; sabotage; arson; rebellion; apostasy; adultery; blasphemy; extortion; counterfeiting; smuggling; speculating; disrupting production; recidivist consumption of alcohol; producing or preparing food, drink, cosmetics or sanitary items that lead to death when consumed or used; producing and publishing pornography; using pornographic materials to solicit sex; recidivist false accusation of capital sexual offenses causing execution of an innocent person; recidivist theft; certain military offenses (e.g. cowardice, assisting the enemy); "enmity against God"; "corruption on earth"; espionage and treason.[4][5] Iran carried out at least 977 executions in 2015, at least 567 executions in 2016,[6] and at least 507 executions in 2017.[7]"

Hmm... many of those cannot be found in the Quran too...
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: iceman on July 21, 2018, 05:16:37 PM
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_in_Iran

"Capital punishment is a legal penalty in Iran.[1] Crimes punishable by death include murder; rape; child molestation; sodomy; drug trafficking; armed robbery; kidnapping; terrorism; burglary; pedophilia; homosexuality; incestuous relations; fornication; prohibited sexual relations; sexual misconduct; prostitution[2][3]; plotting to overthrow the Islamic regime; political dissidence; sabotage; arson; rebellion; apostasy; adultery; blasphemy; extortion; counterfeiting; smuggling; speculating; disrupting production; recidivist consumption of alcohol; producing or preparing food, drink, cosmetics or sanitary items that lead to death when consumed or used; producing and publishing pornography; using pornographic materials to solicit sex; recidivist false accusation of capital sexual offenses causing execution of an innocent person; recidivist theft; certain military offenses (e.g. cowardice, assisting the enemy); "enmity against God"; "corruption on earth"; espionage and treason.[4][5] Iran carried out at least 977 executions in 2015, at least 567 executions in 2016,[6] and at least 507 executions in 2017.[7]"

Hmm... many of those cannot be found in the Quran too...

😀 And the question still remains that would it be a decision based on government law or Shariah law? Is the government based entirely on Shariah law or does it have additional laws based on government decision? 😊 Come on lads, is it really that complicated and difficult 😕
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: Abu Muhammad on July 21, 2018, 05:43:10 PM
😀 And the question still remains that would it be a decision based on government law or Shariah law? Is the government based entirely on Shariah law or does it have additional laws based on government decision? 😊 Come on lads, is it really that complicated and difficult 😕

Are these not a shari'ah law to you:

Imam Jafar As-Sadiq (ra) - through these statements found in Al-Kafi -:

1.  "The adulterer will be stoned and the one who refuses to pay the Zakah will get beheaded".

2.  "Who refuses to pay even a single ounce of the Zakah is not a believer nor a Muslim and this is the statement of Him (Allah), may He be glorified and exalted".
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: iceman on July 21, 2018, 11:19:27 PM
Are these not a shari'ah law to you:

Imam Jafar As-Sadiq (ra) - through these statements found in Al-Kafi -:

1.  "The adulterer will be stoned and the one who refuses to pay the Zakah will get beheaded".

2.  "Who refuses to pay even a single ounce of the Zakah is not a believer nor a Muslim and this is the statement of Him (Allah), may He be glorified and exalted".

"Who refuses to pay even a single ounce of the Zakah is not a believer nor a Muslim and this is the statement of Him (Allah), may He be glorified and exalted".

'And this is a statement of him meaning Allah? OK, now since this is a statement of Allah then surely it must be in the Qur'an since its from him (Allah).

"the one who refuses to pay the Zakah will get beheaded".

Any kind of indication from the Qur'an. The boys are still struggling . 😊
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: Abu Muhammad on July 22, 2018, 02:18:12 AM
"Who refuses to pay even a single ounce of the Zakah is not a believer nor a Muslim and this is the statement of Him (Allah), may He be glorified and exalted".

'And this is a statement of him meaning Allah? OK, now since this is a statement of Allah then surely it must be in the Qur'an since its from him (Allah).

"the one who refuses to pay the Zakah will get beheaded".

Any kind of indication from the Qur'an. The boys are still struggling . 😊

Those in red font, who said that?
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: iceman on July 22, 2018, 08:14:54 PM
Those in red font, who said that?

There you go fellas, I asked a question and instead of an answer I got a question in return. So I don't know what you're accusing me of.
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: iceman on July 22, 2018, 09:41:58 PM
Those in red font, who said that?

Any indication in the Qur'an regarding it? Or are you going to settle with, it's not necessary that everything is in the Qur'an in black and white or how one desires.
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: muslim720 on July 23, 2018, 03:23:19 PM
Any indication in the Qur'an regarding it?

So then the only option left is to concede that the Imam (ra) lied upon the Qur'an.
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: iceman on July 23, 2018, 05:30:14 PM
No, who said that was the only option left. How did you come to that conclusion. There is a quote from the Imam, which ever, now did the Imam actually say that, or may be he said something along those lines but not exactly that. The person narrating it explained it in his words, may be two, or three or four chains down. Was it exaggerated or even fabricated or may be the Imam didn't actually say that. He said something else but it was wrongly, falsely or  by mistake attributed to him.

These questions apply to anyone from the past. The whole thing is how accurate and exact is any narration, hadith, statement of any well known and recognised individual from the past needs to be looked at and examined. There has to be check and balance, not on every single teeny weeny thing but at least the main principles, rules and regulations, pillars, practices of faith etc. Or do we take and get others to accept things at face value, the ones we desire and suit us. And automatically reject thone that don't suit us.
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: muslim720 on July 23, 2018, 05:35:27 PM
No, who said that was the only option left. How did you come to that conclusion. There is a quote from the Imam, which ever, now did the Imam actually say that, or may be he said something along those lines but not exactly that. The person narrating it explained it in his words, may be two, or three or four chains down. Was it exaggerated or even fabricated or may be the Imam didn't actually say that. He said something else but it was wrongly, falsely or  by mistake attributed to him.

These are authentic narrations I have quoted you.  Then again, I am fine with you weakening them.  Whether you acknowledge that the challenge has been met OR that the Imam (ra) lied upon the Qur'an OR the Imam's (ra) Companions (truthful according to your scholars) attributed a lie to him, you are taking a loss.

If you have other options, we can go over that too but rest assured you are losing something and therefore, the entire discussion.
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: iceman on July 23, 2018, 06:09:09 PM
For me it isn't about winning or loosing or about Shia or Sunni or about settling personal scores or making numbers or scoring points or goals. For you and your bunch it is absolutely clear what it's all about.

Authentic according to whom and why. The challenge hasn't been met. In fact it's no where near being met. It's just being played around by you lads.
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: muslim720 on July 23, 2018, 07:09:37 PM
Authentic according to whom and why.

According to your scholars, including Al-Khoei: https://shiascans.com/2017/04/29/%D9%8Bshia-infallibles-refusing-to-pay-zakah-is-disbelief-and-the-consequence-of-it-is-to-get-beheaded-by-the-mahdi/

Quote
The challenge hasn't been met. In fact it's no where near being met. It's just being played around by you lads.

Okay, so we can agree that either the Imam (ra) lied OR his companions and your scholars attributed lies to Imam Jafar As-Sadiq (ra).
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: iceman on July 23, 2018, 07:34:26 PM
According to your scholars, including Al-Khoei: https://shiascans.com/2017/04/29/%D9%8Bshia-infallibles-refusing-to-pay-zakah-is-disbelief-and-the-consequence-of-it-is-to-get-beheaded-by-the-mahdi/

Okay, so we can agree that either the Imam (ra) lied OR his companions and your scholars attributed lies to Imam Jafar As-Sadiq (ra).

I've gone through the link you've so kindly provided, can you show me anywhere where it says that if you refuse to pay Zakah to the Islamic government, the Islamic state, the representatives or employees of the government who have been put incharge to collect Zakah money then you are subject to beheading. When Allah has given you a choice who to give Zakah to then who are Rulers or Caliphs and what right to they have to take away the choice from you.

You've mentioned Al Khoei, do you know what Taqleed is all about within and according to Shias. If a Scholar gives his opinion or point of view it is not necessary for you to accept that especially if you're not in1 his Taqleed. Shias who believe in and do Taqleed have a choice to follow a well known and recognised Mujtahid. The other Mujtahid's fatwa or opinion about something isn't Hujjat on them. You need to learn and get to know first before firing off.
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: iceman on July 23, 2018, 08:18:00 PM
According to your scholars, including Al-Khoei: https://shiascans.com/2017/04/29/%D9%8Bshia-infallibles-refusing-to-pay-zakah-is-disbelief-and-the-consequence-of-it-is-to-get-beheaded-by-the-mahdi/

Okay, so we can agree that either the Imam (ra) lied OR his companions and your scholars attributed lies to Imam Jafar As-Sadiq (ra).

At work at the moment. I will comment on every single point and address every single matter in the link you've provided.
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: iceman on July 23, 2018, 09:58:07 PM
Ali ibn Ibrahim from his father from Isma’il ibn Marrar fromYunus from Ibn Muskan … on the authority of Abu Ja’far (Muhammad ibn ‘Ali Al-Baqir):

“The Messenger of Allah addressed a group of people in the mosque telling some of them to get up [of the mosque] until he threw out five persons, then he said: “Get out of our mosque and do not pray in here whilst you haven’t paid your Zakah.” [

Al Kafi vol. 3 – The Book Of Zakah ch. 2]

Yunus from ‘Ali ibn Abi Hamzah from Abu Basir on the authority of Abu ‘Abdillah (Al-Sadiq), who said:

“He refuses to pay even a single ounce of the Zakah is not a believer nor a Muslim and this is the statement of Him (Allah), may He be glorified and exalted […].”

[Al-Kafi vol. 3 – The Book Of Zakah ch. 2]

Abu ‘Ali Al-Ash’ari, from the one who mentioned it, from Hafs ibn ‘Omar, from Salim, from Abu Basir, (It has been narrated) from Abu ‘Abdullah (Al-Sadiq), who said:

“Whoever refuses to pay a carat of Zakat, let him choose to die as a Jew or a Christian (i.e. kafir).”

[Al-Kafi vol. 3 – The Book Of Zakah

Allah three narrations you've mentioned I'm not going to argue with you about their authenticity because I need to move the discussion forward, where does it say that those who refuse to pay Zakah should be beheaded?

Refusing to pay Zakah is one thing but Muslim Caliphs/Rulers employing people and getting them to force people to pay Zakah is another.

And if people refuse to pay Zakah or hand over the Zakah money to these employees then the Muslim Caliph/Ruler has the right to order their execution by beheading is another. This is what's under discussion.

These are what you've outlined in read and black;

"Get out of our mosque and do not pray in here whilst you haven’t paid your Zakah.”

"We refuses to pay even a single ounce of the Zakah is not a believer nor a Muslim"
Whoever refuses to pay a carat of Zakat, let him choose to die as a Jew or a Christian"

Where is the order of EXECUTION by BEHEADING?
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: zaid_ibn_ali on July 23, 2018, 11:42:14 PM
Ali ordered the collection of zakat when he was caliph. Nahj ul balagha shows this clearly.

Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: iceman on July 24, 2018, 12:34:54 AM
And here's the summary;

Summary:

People who refuse to pray Salah must be denied from expelled from mosques!
People who refuse to pay the Zakah are disbelievers!
People who refuse to pay the Zakah can choose to die as Jews or Christians (i.e. disbelievers)!

No indication of execution by beheading?
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: muslim720 on July 24, 2018, 02:22:33 AM
And here's the summary;

Summary:

People who refuse to pray Salah must be denied from expelled from mosques!
People who refuse to pay the Zakah are disbelievers!
People who refuse to pay the Zakah can choose to die as Jews or Christians (i.e. disbelievers)!

No indication of execution by beheading?

....from Sahl from ibn Shamun from Al-Asam from Malikk ibn ‘Utbah from Ibn Taghlub who said: “Abu Abdullah (i.e. Al-Sadiq) told me: “Allah has declared the blood of two types of people permissible to be shed in Islam, nobody must judge with regards to these two types until Allah sends our Qa’im (Shia Mahdi) from Ahl Al-Bayt, and when Allah sends him, he will judge with regards to these two types according to the ruling of Allah, without requiring any testimony, which is: The adulterer will be stoned and the one who refuses to pay the Zakah will get beheaded.” [Al-Kafi vol. 3 – The Book Of Zakah ch. 2]

Do you see it now?  If I know anything about you, there will be no acknowledgment of what I've shown you in your next post.  In fact, you might even deny it saying there is no mention of beheading!
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: muslim720 on July 24, 2018, 02:24:49 AM
Where is the order of EXECUTION by BEHEADING?

....from Sahl from ibn Shamun from Al-Asam from Malikk ibn ‘Utbah from Ibn Taghlub who said: “Abu Abdullah (i.e. Al-Sadiq) told me: “Allah has declared the blood of two types of people permissible to be shed in Islam, nobody must judge with regards to these two types until Allah sends our Qa’im (Shia Mahdi) from Ahl Al-Bayt, and when Allah sends him, he will judge with regards to these two types according to the ruling of Allah, without requiring any testimony, which is: The adulterer will be stoned and the one who refuses to pay the Zakah will get beheaded.” [Al-Kafi vol. 3 – The Book Of Zakah ch. 2]

See it now?
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: Asif Hussain on July 24, 2018, 11:21:58 AM
Looking forward to iceman's next dance move
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: iceman on July 24, 2018, 11:30:08 AM
....from Sahl from ibn Shamun from Al-Asam from Malikk ibn ‘Utbah from Ibn Taghlub who said: “Abu Abdullah (i.e. Al-Sadiq) told me: “Allah has declared the blood of two types of people permissible to be shed in Islam, nobody must judge with regards to these two types until Allah sends our Qa’im (Shia Mahdi) from Ahl Al-Bayt, and when Allah sends him, he will judge with regards to these two types according to the ruling of Allah, without requiring any testimony, which is: The adulterer will be stoned and the one who refuses to pay the Zakah will get beheaded.” [Al-Kafi vol. 3 – The Book Of Zakah ch. 2]

Do you see it now?  If I know anything about you, there will be no acknowledgment of what I've shown you in your next post.  In fact, you might even deny it saying there is no mention of beheading!

I'm actually going to do even better than that. This is part and at the very beginning of what you've quoted and I'm going to put it in capitals,

"Allah has declared the blood of two types of people permissible to be shed in Islam"

Notice; "ALLAH HAS DECLARED" Not Mahdi or any of our Imams or not even the Prophet s.a.w himself but who? Here it comes again "ALLAH HAS DECLARED" One more time just in case you've missed it "ALLAH HAS DECLARED"

Now for heavens sake can you or anyone, be it Shia or Sunni, show me where Allah has declared this? The Prophet s.a.w didn't declare it, any of the Shia Imams didn't declare it. So who declared it? ALLAH?

And what ever Allah has said you will only find that in the Qur'an. Can you find Allah's saying anywhere else apart from the Qur'an?

You don't need to stretch this and make it complicated and difficult.
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: iceman on July 24, 2018, 11:32:36 AM
Looking forward to iceman's next dance move

😀 You've already got it. 😊
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: iceman on July 24, 2018, 11:34:46 AM
ALLAH HAS DECLARED IT, OK, BUT WHERE? CAN YOU PLEASE SHOW ME?
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: muslim720 on July 24, 2018, 03:55:50 PM
I'm actually going to do even better than that.

No, dip$hit, you are still utilizing the same dance moves.

Quote
Now for heavens sake can you or anyone, be it Shia or Sunni, show me where Allah has declared this? The Prophet s.a.w didn't declare it, any of the Shia Imams didn't declare it. So who declared it? ALLAH?

Your scholars have narrated from the so-called trustworthy companions of your Imam that your Imam (ra) said that Allah (swt) has declared the blood of two types of people permissible (adulterer and one who refuses to pay Zakat).

Now it is for you to reject your:

1.  Scholars
2.  Trustworthy companions of your Imam
3.  Imam

Again, as I said, whoever you pick, you lose!
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: iceman on July 24, 2018, 04:23:54 PM
No, dip$hit, you are still utilizing the same dance moves.

Your scholars have narrated from the so-called trustworthy companions of your Imam that your Imam (ra) said that Allah (swt) has declared the blood of two types of people permissible (adulterer and one who refuses to pay Zakat).

Now it is for you to reject your:

1.  Scholars
2.  Trustworthy companions of your Imam
3.  Imam

Again, as I said, whoever you pick, you lose!

Once again I'm going to do even better,  in fact a hell of a lot better.

"that Allah (swt) has declared the blood of two types of people permissible (adulterer and one who refuses to pay Zakat)"

"THAT ALLAH HAS DECLARED" Do you accept and believe this? If yes, can you show me where ALLAH HAS DECLARED?

You can't show me, can you. Otherwise you would have done it by now. Can anybody show me where ALLAH HAS DECLARED........?
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: muslim720 on July 24, 2018, 04:35:46 PM
If yes, can you show me where ALLAH HAS DECLARED?

You can't show me, can you.

I did not say that!  Your scholars narrated that from trustworthy companions of Imam Jafar As-Sadiq (ra) that the Imam (ra) said that adulterers and those who refuse to pay Zakat must be beheaded.  If anyone, you have to take your case to Imam Jafar As-Sadiq (ra), not me.  Ask him to show it to you from the Qur'an.

My point, on the other hand, is this: if you are a Shi'i, on what basis do you reject the words of your Imam (ra) knowing that rejecting the Imam (ra) makes you a disbeliever (according to your own madhhab)? 

So we are back to square one!  Who lied?  Your scholars?  The so-called trustworthy companions of the Imam (ra)?  Or did the Imam (ra) lie upon the Qur'an?
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: iceman on July 24, 2018, 06:22:38 PM
I did not say that!  Your scholars narrated that from trustworthy companions of Imam Jafar As-Sadiq (ra) that the Imam (ra) said that adulterers and those who refuse to pay Zakat must be beheaded.  If anyone, you have to take your case to Imam Jafar As-Sadiq (ra), not me.  Ask him to show it to you from the Qur'an.

My point, on the other hand, is this: if you are a Shi'i, on what basis do you reject the words of your Imam (ra) knowing that rejecting the Imam (ra) makes you a disbeliever (according to your own madhhab)? 

So we are back to square one!  Who lied?  Your scholars?  The so-called trustworthy companions of the Imam (ra)?  Or did the Imam (ra) lie upon the Qur'an?

I know you don't have the ability or means to answer. You're going to keep dancing around it. But I do have the ability and means to answer and address everything you throw at me and to move the discussion forward despite your attempts to derail.

The Imam didn't give his own statement based on his own opinion but said that ALLAH HAS DECLARED. Now lets say this is true then where is it in the Qur'an? If I tell you that Allah said this, you would obviously question me on it. Or would you take my word for it?

Now what is attributed towards the Imam is either true or false. If true then there should be a clear verse, otherwise it's false. Nobody lied. It's either a misunderstanding based on the narrators getting the wording wrong since there is such thing as error, mistake, misconception or misinterpreted, or its wrongly attributed.

There are many things in your books which you categories as either strong or weak, acceptable or not. I don't know why the same principles and standards don't apply here.

So once again people if something is from ALLAH that ALLAH DECLARED IT then where is the DECLARATION?

Come on lads!
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: muslim720 on July 24, 2018, 06:39:03 PM
The Imam didn't give his own statement based on his own opinion but said that ALLAH HAS DECLARED.

If the Imam (ra) did not give his own statement based on his own opinion then it is incumbent upon you to accept his word as is and acknowledge that indeed "Allah has declared".

Quote
Now lets say this is true then where is it in the Qur'an?

Okay, so you are doubting the Imam (ra), hence, say it openly that he lied upon the Qur'an.

By the way, to help you out a bit (only to expose your ignorance), Allah (swt) also declares via qudsi hadith!

Quote
Nobody lied.

Your scholars have graded it as authentic.  So the point remains: the Imam (ra) must have lied, naudhubillah!

Quote
It's either a misunderstanding based on the narrators getting the wording wrong since there is such thing as error, mistake, misconception or misinterpreted, or its wrongly attributed.

....said no one ever, except you!  I would take your scholars critique of a hadith over your opinion and hypothetical points.

Quote
There are many things in your books which you categories as either strong or weak, acceptable or not. I don't know why the same principles and standards don't apply here.

...because these narrations are classed authentic.

Quote
So once again people if something is from ALLAH that ALLAH DECLARED IT then where is the DECLARATION?

You have a case against Imam Jafar As-Sadiq (ra) or his companions or your scholars.  You lose one, at least, but it casts a huge doubt over your madhhab.
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: iceman on July 24, 2018, 07:41:59 PM
If the Imam (ra) did not give his own statement based on his own opinion then it is incumbent upon you to accept his word as is and acknowledge that indeed "Allah has declared".

Okay, so you are doubting the Imam (ra), hence, say it openly that he lied upon the Qur'an.

By the way, to help you out a bit (only to expose your ignorance), Allah (swt) also declares via qudsi hadith!

Your scholars have graded it as authentic.  So the point remains: the Imam (ra) must have lied, naudhubillah!

....said no one ever, except you!  I would take your scholars critique of a hadith over your opinion and hypothetical points.

...because these narrations are classed authentic.

You have a case against Imam Jafar As-Sadiq (ra) or his companions or your scholars.  You lose one, at least, but it casts a huge doubt over your madhhab.

"If the Imam (ra) did not give his own statement based on his own opinion then it is incumbent upon you to accept his word as is and acknowledge that indeed "Allah has declared"

If that's the case and that's how you want to put it then why can't we accept everything they say? Or everything that's attributed them? I will give you an example of this. There are a lot of things which are attributed to our Imams and you challenge them with the Qur'an. I'll jog your memory in a minute. You can't and shouldn't pick and choose what suits you and when it suits you.

"Okay, so you are doubting the Imam (ra), hence, say it openly that he lied upon the Qur'an"

No the Imam didn't lie. There is a misunderstanding somewhere along the line by the narrators. When you narrate something and it goes through different channels there's bound to be a difference. Also what's been said depends on those who are listening how much and well they've understood.

"By the way, to help you out a bit (only to expose your ignorance), Allah (swt) also declares via qudsi hadith"

This is interesting. So we've seen and learned something new here people that Allah also declares through hadiths and narrations rather than bothering through the Qur'an. So does this mean that it's not necessary that everything is or has to be in the Qur'an.

"Your scholars have graded it as authentic.  So the point remains: the Imam (ra) must have lied, naudhubillah!"

Once again, no the Imam didn't lie there are plenty of other reasons which I've mentioned. I don't know why you're jumping up and down with this one.

"said no one ever, except you!  I would take your scholars critique of a hadith over your opinion and hypothetical points"

That's fine, you can take what ever and whom ever you want. But you need to convince others who do not take it at face or word value. What are you going to do or how are you going to convince those who want clear evidence in black and white that ALLAH DECLARED IT?

Are you going to say "yes Allah did declare it but didn't bother to mention it in the Qur'an. I've taken it at face value without looking into it and so should you".

"because these narrations are classed authentic"

Ok, so what's the evidence of their authenticity? Or do we start taking things at face value based on what suits us?
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: iceman on July 24, 2018, 08:36:04 PM
"You have a case against Imam Jafar As-Sadiq (ra) or his companions or your scholars.  You lose one, at least, but it casts a huge doubt over your madhhab"

Like I said before its got nothing to do with win or lose on my behalf. My case isn't against anyone. Just questioning those who put forward this quote to prove their argument. And they're still struggling to respond by dancing around it. And now they're trying to divert it.
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: muslim720 on July 25, 2018, 03:16:54 AM
There is a misunderstanding somewhere along the line by the narrators. When you narrate something and it goes through different channels there's bound to be a difference. Also what's been said depends on those who are listening how much and well they've understood.

As I said, Al-Khoie gave the same fatwa, based on this hadith.  Hence, it is quite authentic.  It is not my problem that you do not read what I reference. 

Coming back to what I have highlighted from your post, now you are casting doubt on trustworthy companions of the Imam (ra).  You ask me for authenticity of the hadith (because you do not know about the hadith) and yet you are somehow sure that the narrators had a "misunderstanding".  What sort of logic is that?  #ShiaLogic
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: wannabe on July 25, 2018, 02:25:34 PM

Now for heavens sake can you or anyone, be it Shia or Sunni, show me where Allah has declared this? The Prophet s.a.w didn't declare it, any of the Shia Imams didn't declare it. So who declared it? ALLAH?
salam bro
not answering any of ur questions  :)
i believe, sunni-shia polemics are quite well-documented. whatever you say, won't change the belief of sunni bros.
likewise, whatever argument put forward by sunni bros, won't change your belief.
on a personal level, i believe in...
[Shakir 18:29] And say: The truth is from your Lord, so let him who please believe, and let him who please disbelieve;....

the islamic world is a safer place if everyone follows...
[Shakir 5:48] ....therefore strive with one another to hasten to virtuous deeds; to Allah is your return, of all (of you), so He will let you know that in which you differed;

at the end of the day, every muslim should ponder about verses Quran 2:166-167.
Only mukmin are excluded from this group since they love Allah more as described in Quran 2:165.
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: iceman on July 25, 2018, 04:06:17 PM
As I said, Al-Khoie gave the same fatwa, based on this hadith.  Hence, it is quite authentic.  It is not my problem that you do not read what I reference. 

Coming back to what I have highlighted from your post, now you are casting doubt on trustworthy companions of the Imam (ra).  You ask me for authenticity of the hadith (because you do not know about the hadith) and yet you are somehow sure that the narrators had a "misunderstanding".  What sort of logic is that?  #ShiaLogic

I'm not asking you about the authenticity of this, that or the other. All I'm asking you is you've put forward aa reference the following quote,
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: iceman on July 25, 2018, 04:47:38 PM
salam bro
not answering any of ur questions  :)
i believe, sunni-shia polemics are quite well-documented. whatever you say, won't change the belief of sunni bros.
likewise, whatever argument put forward by sunni bros, won't change your belief.
on a personal level, i believe in...
[Shakir 18:29] And say: The truth is from your Lord, so let him who please believe, and let him who please disbelieve;....

the islamic world is a safer place if everyone follows...
[Shakir 5:48] ....therefore strive with one another to hasten to virtuous deeds; to Allah is your return, of all (of you), so He will let you know that in which you differed;

at the end of the day, every muslim should ponder about verses Quran 2:166-167.
Only mukmin are excluded from this group since they love Allah more as described in Quran 2:165.
'm not asking you about the authenticity of this, that or the other. All I'm asking you is you've put forward as reference the following quote,

"Allah has declared the blood of two types of people permissible to be shed in Islam"

It doesn't matter who said it, who narrated it, how many people are in that chain of narration and who endorsed it, all I'm saying and asking is 'Allah declared this' where is the declaration?

Or do we accept that, never mind about important issues and matters and bits and pieces connected and related to them, even if something is said that it's from Allah as in this case, it doesn't have to be in the Qur'an, other sources apart from the Qur'an are enough to acknowledge and accept.

Do you agree to the above?
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: muslim720 on July 26, 2018, 12:59:47 AM
"Allah has declared the blood of two types of people permissible to be shed in Islam"

It doesn't matter who said it, who narrated it, how many people are in that chain of narration and who endorsed it, all I'm saying and asking is 'Allah declared this' where is the declaration?

Since there is nothing verbatim in the Qur'an which says what the Imam (ra) said - that "Allah has declared the blood of two types of people permissible to be shed in Islam" - therefore, the Imam (ra) must have lied, naudhubillah!

Why are you hesitating to say that the Imam (ra) lied?  If that does not sit well with you, I suggest you believe in the words of your own hujjah who (according to you) is "infallible" and "Divinely Appointed" and "Divinely Inspired" in everything he says.
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: iceman on July 26, 2018, 07:55:18 AM
Since there is nothing verbatim in the Qur'an which says what the Imam (ra) said - that "Allah has declared the blood of two types of people permissible to be shed in Islam" - therefore, the Imam (ra) must have lied, naudhubillah!

Why are you hesitating to say that the Imam (ra) lied?  If that does not sit well with you, I suggest you believe in the words of your own hujjah who (according to you) is "infallible" and "Divinely Appointed" and "Divinely Inspired" in everything he says.

You didn't address my point, or you don't want to address it? Here it is again in case you've missed it;

Do we accept that, never mind about important issues and matters and bits and pieces connected and related to them, even if something is said that it's from Allah as in this case, it doesn't have to be in the Qur'an, other sources apart from the Qur'an are enough to acknowledge and accept.

Do you agree to the above?

Would you like to answer and address the above?
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: Abu Muhammad on July 26, 2018, 01:56:37 PM
You didn't address my point, or you don't want to address it? Here it is again in case you've missed it;

Do we accept that, never mind about important issues and matters and bits and pieces connected and related to them, even if something is said that it's from Allah as in this case, it doesn't have to be in the Qur'an, other sources apart from the Qur'an are enough to acknowledge and accept.

Do you agree to the above?

Would you like to answer and address the above?


1. Zakah:
a) Obligation to give Zakah - mentioned in the Quran
b) Punishment for not giving zakah - not mentioned in the Quran

2. Imamah:
a) Obligation to believe in  Imamah - not mentioned in the Quran
b) Punishment for disbelieving in imamah - not mentioned in Quran (off course not!)

Hope that helps!
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: muslim720 on July 26, 2018, 03:36:09 PM
Do we accept that, never mind about important issues and matters and bits and pieces connected and related to them, even if something is said that it's from Allah as in this case, it doesn't have to be in the Qur'an, other sources apart from the Qur'an are enough to acknowledge and accept.

Do you agree to the above?

I know what you are trying to do here and I don't like it.  You are trying to open another front, an escape route, as is typical when Shias are cornered in a discussion.  It is not about what I agree to as that is another discussion altogether.  It is about you rejecting the words of your "infallible", "Divinely Inspired" Imam (ra).

You can cast doubt upon the Imam (ra), his trustworthy companions (according to your madhhab) or your scholars!  I am still waiting for you to pick one.
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: iceman on July 26, 2018, 06:35:28 PM
I know what you are trying to do here and I don't like it.  You are trying to open another front, an escape route, as is typical when Shias are cornered in a discussion.  It is not about what I agree to as that is another discussion altogether.  It is about you rejecting the words of your "infallible", "Divinely Inspired" Imam (ra).

You can cast doubt upon the Imam (ra), his trustworthy companions (according to your madhhab) or your scholars!  I am still waiting for you to pick one.

All I'm trying to do is get an answer out of you and to reason with you. And you keep twisting and turning things around. If Allah has said something or declared something then where is it in the Qur'an  or  may be it's not necessary that it has to be in the Qur'an. Can you comment on this and answer. Or just stay quiet. Hadiths and narrations how do you consider and accept them? Do you use Qur'an for check and balance or do you just go as you please?
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: muslim720 on July 26, 2018, 06:42:03 PM
If Allah has said something or declared something then where is it in the Qur'an  or  may be it's not necessary that it has to be in the Qur'an.

As a Shi'i, it is hujjah upon you to accept the words of your Imams (ra).  Where it is in the Qur'an is your way to wiggle your way out of the corner.

Quote
Hadiths and narrations how do you consider and accept them?

It is not about my consideration and acceptance.  It is for you to accept them because your scholars have narrated and authenticated the narrations I've quoted. 

Again, one had to lie: the Imam (ra), his companions or the scholars narrating!
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: iceman on July 26, 2018, 06:54:20 PM
As a Shi'i, it is hujjah upon you to accept the words of your Imams (ra).  Where it is in the Qur'an is your way to wiggle your way out of the corner.

It is not about my consideration and acceptance.  It is for you to accept them because your scholars have narrated and authenticated the narrations I've quoted. 

Again, one had to lie: the Imam (ra), his companions or the scholars narrating!

So then this is proven that even if Allah has said something then it's not necessary that it has to be from the Qur'an. Other sources are just as reliable. As fast as I'm concerned when it comes to hadiths and narrations then Qur'an is the scale. If you can find it in the Qur'an, not necessarily in black and white and as you want, even an indication or hint is enough. Otherwise it is wrongly or falsely narrated or with some misunderstanding somewhere along the line. Once again 'Allah has declared' ok, where?  The declaration has to be somewhere. You can twist and turn this around at me as much as you like. But you know the score by now
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: iceman on July 27, 2018, 11:51:24 AM
Volume 2, Book 24, Number 547 :
Narrated by Abu Huraira
Allah's Apostle (p.b.u.h) ordered (a person) to collect Zakat, and that person returned and told him that Ibn Jamil, Khalid bin Al-Walid, and Abbas bin 'Abdul Muttalib had refused to give Zakat." The Prophet said, "What made Ibn Jamll refuse to give Zakat though he was a poor man, and was made wealthy by Allah and His Apostle ? But you are unfair in asking Zakat from Khalid as he is keeping his armor for Allah's Cause (for Jihad). As for Abbas bin 'Abdul Muttalib, he is the uncle of Allah's Apostle (p.b.u.h) and Zakat is compulsory on him and he should pay it double."

So what happened to execution here?
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: Abu Muhammad on July 27, 2018, 01:47:12 PM
So then this is proven that even if Allah has said something then it's not necessary that it has to be from the Qur'an. Other sources are just as reliable. As fast as I'm concerned when it comes to hadiths and narrations then Qur'an is the scale. If you can find it in the Qur'an, not necessarily in black and white and as you want, even an indication or hint is enough. Otherwise it is wrongly or falsely narrated or with some misunderstanding somewhere along the line. Once again 'Allah has declared' ok, where?  The declaration has to be somewhere. You can twist and turn this around at me as much as you like. But you know the score by now

@iceman, in case you missed this one out:

1. Zakah:
a) Obligation to give Zakah - mentioned in the Quran
b) Punishment for not giving zakah - not mentioned in the Quran

2. Imamah:
a) Obligation to believe in Imamah - not mentioned in the Quran
b) Punishment for disbelieving in imamah - not mentioned in Quran (off course not since there were no obligation in the first place!)

If you understand what I mean!
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: iceman on July 27, 2018, 01:58:36 PM
@iceman, in case you missed this one out:

1. Zakah:
a) Obligation to give Zakah - mentioned in the Quran
b) Punishment for not giving zakah - not mentioned in the Quran

2. Imamah:
a) Obligation to believe in Imamah - not mentioned in the Quran
b) Punishment for disbelieving in imamah - not mentioned in Quran (off course not since there were no obligation in the first place!)

If you understand what I mean!

Oh I absolutely and completely understand what you mean.

1, Zakah:
a) Obligation to give Zakah - mentioned in the Quran
b) Punishment for not giving zakah - not mentioned in the Quran

2. Imamah:
a) Obligation to believe that there is someone third in line in authority after Allah and his Messenger s.a.w mentioned in the Quran
b) Punishment for disbelieving in it - not mentioned in Quran
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: Abu Muhammad on July 27, 2018, 04:40:47 PM
Oh I absolutely and completely understand what you mean.

1, Zakah:
a) Obligation to give Zakah - mentioned in the Quran
b) Punishment for not giving zakah - not mentioned in the Quran

2. Imamah:
a) Obligation to believe that there is someone third in line in authority after Allah and his Messenger s.a.w mentioned in the Quran
b) Punishment for disbelieving in it - not mentioned in Quran


Hmm... let us see:

يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا أَطِيعُوا اللَّهَ وَأَطِيعُوا الرَّسُولَ وَأُولِي الْأَمْرِ مِنْكُمْ    ۖ فَإِنْ تَنَازَعْتُمْ فِي شَيْءٍ فَرُدُّوهُ إِلَى اللَّهِ وَالرَّسُولِ إِنْ كُنْتُمْ تُؤْمِنُونَ بِاللَّهِ وَالْيَوْمِ الْآخِرِ ۚ ذَٰلِكَ خَيْرٌ وَأَحْسَنُ تَأْوِيلًا

(Sahih International)
O  you  who  have  believed,  obey Allah and  obey  the  Messenger  and  those  in  authority among  you.  And  if  you  disagree  over  anything,  refer  it  to Allah and  the  Messenger,  if you  should  believe  in Allah and  the  Last  Day.  That  is  the  best  [way]  and  best  in  result.

-Sura An-Nisa', Ayah 59



Hmm... those in red above doesn't sound like the obligation to believe in imamah at all. FYI, these in blue below are how "believe in something" should sound like:

لَيْسَ الْبِرَّ أَنْ تُوَلُّوا وُجُوهَكُمْ قِبَلَ الْمَشْرِقِ وَالْمَغْرِبِ وَلَٰكِنَّ الْبِرَّ مَنْ آمَنَ بِاللَّهِ وَالْيَوْمِ الْآخِرِ وَالْمَلَائِكَةِ
  وَالْكِتَابِ وَالنَّبِيِّينَ

(Sahih International)
Righteousness is not that you turn your faces toward the east or the west, but [true] righteousness is [in] one who believes in Allah , the Last Day, the angels, the Book, and the prophets
-Sura Al-Baqarah, Ayah 177



آمَنَ الرَّسُولُ بِمَا أُنْزِلَ إِلَيْهِ مِنْ رَبِّهِ وَالْمُؤْمِنُونَ ۚ كُلٌّ آمَنَ بِاللَّهِ وَمَلَائِكَتِهِ وَكُتُبِهِ وَرُسُلِهِ   لَا نُفَرِّقُ بَيْنَ أَحَدٍ مِنْ رُسُلِهِ ۚ وَقَالُوا سَمِعْنَا وَأَطَعْنَا ۖ غُفْرَانَكَ رَبَّنَا وَإِلَيْكَ الْمَصِيرُ

(Sahih International)
The Messenger has believed in what was revealed to him from his Lord, and [so have] the believers. All of them have believed in Allah and His angels and His books and His messengers, [saying], "We make no distinction between any of His messengers." And they say, "We hear and we obey. [We seek] Your forgiveness, our Lord, and to You is the [final] destination."
-Sura Al-Baqarah, Ayah 285



يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا آمِنُوا بِاللَّهِ وَرَسُولِهِ وَالْكِتَابِ الَّذِي نَزَّلَ عَلَىٰ رَسُولِهِ وَالْكِتَابِ الَّذِي أَنْزَلَ مِنْ قَبْلُ ۚ وَمَنْ يَكْفُرْ بِاللَّهِ وَمَلَائِكَتِهِ وَكُتُبِهِ وَرُسُلِهِ وَالْيَوْمِ الْآخِرِ فَقَدْ ضَلَّ ضَلَالًا بَعِيدًا

(Sahih International)
O  you  who  have  believed,  believe  in Allah and  His  Messenger  and  the  Book  that  He sent  down  upon  His  Messenger  and  the  Scripture  which  He  sent  down  before. And whoever  disbelieves  in Allah ,  His  angels,  His  books,  His  messengers,  and  the  Last  Day has  certainly  gone  far  astray.
-Sura An-Nisa', Ayah 136


Try a bit more harder, please!
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: iceman on July 29, 2018, 08:50:31 AM
Hmm... let us see:

يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا أَطِيعُوا اللَّهَ وَأَطِيعُوا الرَّسُولَ وَأُولِي الْأَمْرِ مِنْكُمْ    ۖ فَإِنْ تَنَازَعْتُمْ فِي شَيْءٍ فَرُدُّوهُ إِلَى اللَّهِ وَالرَّسُولِ إِنْ كُنْتُمْ تُؤْمِنُونَ بِاللَّهِ وَالْيَوْمِ الْآخِرِ ۚ ذَٰلِكَ خَيْرٌ وَأَحْسَنُ تَأْوِيلًا

(Sahih International)
O  you  who  have  believed,  obey Allah and  obey  the  Messenger  and  those  in  authority among  you.  And  if  you  disagree  over  anything,  refer  it  to Allah and  the  Messenger,  if you  should  believe  in Allah and  the  Last  Day.  That  is  the  best  [way]  and  best  in  result.

-Sura An-Nisa', Ayah 59



Hmm... those in red above doesn't sound like the obligation to believe in imamah at all. FYI, these in blue below are how "believe in something" should sound like:

لَيْسَ الْبِرَّ أَنْ تُوَلُّوا وُجُوهَكُمْ قِبَلَ الْمَشْرِقِ وَالْمَغْرِبِ وَلَٰكِنَّ الْبِرَّ مَنْ آمَنَ بِاللَّهِ وَالْيَوْمِ الْآخِرِ وَالْمَلَائِكَةِ
  وَالْكِتَابِ وَالنَّبِيِّينَ

(Sahih International)
Righteousness is not that you turn your faces toward the east or the west, but [true] righteousness is [in] one who believes in Allah , the Last Day, the angels, the Book, and the prophets
-Sura Al-Baqarah, Ayah 177



آمَنَ الرَّسُولُ بِمَا أُنْزِلَ إِلَيْهِ مِنْ رَبِّهِ وَالْمُؤْمِنُونَ ۚ كُلٌّ آمَنَ بِاللَّهِ وَمَلَائِكَتِهِ وَكُتُبِهِ وَرُسُلِهِ   لَا نُفَرِّقُ بَيْنَ أَحَدٍ مِنْ رُسُلِهِ ۚ وَقَالُوا سَمِعْنَا وَأَطَعْنَا ۖ غُفْرَانَكَ رَبَّنَا وَإِلَيْكَ الْمَصِيرُ

(Sahih International)
The Messenger has believed in what was revealed to him from his Lord, and [so have] the believers. All of them have believed in Allah and His angels and His books and His messengers, [saying], "We make no distinction between any of His messengers." And they say, "We hear and we obey. [We seek] Your forgiveness, our Lord, and to You is the [final] destination."
-Sura Al-Baqarah, Ayah 285



يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا آمِنُوا بِاللَّهِ وَرَسُولِهِ وَالْكِتَابِ الَّذِي نَزَّلَ عَلَىٰ رَسُولِهِ وَالْكِتَابِ الَّذِي أَنْزَلَ مِنْ قَبْلُ ۚ وَمَنْ يَكْفُرْ بِاللَّهِ وَمَلَائِكَتِهِ وَكُتُبِهِ وَرُسُلِهِ وَالْيَوْمِ الْآخِرِ فَقَدْ ضَلَّ ضَلَالًا بَعِيدًا

(Sahih International)
O  you  who  have  believed,  believe  in Allah and  His  Messenger  and  the  Book  that  He sent  down  upon  His  Messenger  and  the  Scripture  which  He  sent  down  before. And whoever  disbelieves  in Allah ,  His  angels,  His  books,  His  messengers,  and  the  Last  Day has  certainly  gone  far  astray.
-Sura An-Nisa', Ayah 136


Try a bit more harder, please!

No need to try harder, it's not issue of PHD.

"O you who have believed, obey Allah and  obey the Messenger and ALL SO OBEY  those in  authority among  you"

What's difficult to understand here apart from someone being third in line in authority. And Muhammad s.a.w introduced them. Why do I need to try harder? You're the one who needs to save Saqifa and to protect those who kicked it off.
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: Abu Muhammad on July 29, 2018, 09:48:59 AM
No need to try harder, it's not issue of PHD.

"O you who have believed, obey Allah and  obey the Messenger and ALL SO OBEY  those in  authority among  you"

What's difficult to understand here apart from someone being third in line in authority. And Muhammad s.a.w introduced them. Why do I need to try harder? You're the one who needs to save Saqifa and to protect those who kicked it off.

Hmm... let us see once again:

يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا أَطِيعُوا اللَّهَ وَأَطِيعُوا الرَّسُولَ وَأُولِي الْأَمْرِ مِنْكُمْ  ۖ فَإِنْ تَنَازَعْتُمْ فِي شَيْءٍ فَرُدُّوهُ إِلَى اللَّهِ وَالرَّسُولِ إِنْ كُنْتُمْ تُؤْمِنُونَ بِاللَّهِ وَالْيَوْمِ الْآخِرِ ۚ ذَٰلِكَ خَيْرٌ وَأَحْسَنُ تَأْوِيلًا

(Sahih International)
O  you  who  have  believed,  obey Allah and  obey  the  Messenger  and  those  in  authority among  you .  And  if  you  disagree  over  anything,  refer  it  to Allah and  the  Messenger,  if you  should  believe  in Allah and  the  Last  Day.  That  is  the  best  [way]  and  best  in  result.

-Sura An-Nisa', Ayah 59

Hmm... those in red above STILL doesn't sound like the obligation to believe in imamah at all.

Obligation to "believe in something" should sound like those in blue:



لَيْسَ الْبِرَّ أَنْ تُوَلُّوا وُجُوهَكُمْ قِبَلَ الْمَشْرِقِ وَالْمَغْرِبِ وَلَٰكِنَّ الْبِرَّ مَنْ آمَنَ بِاللَّهِ وَالْيَوْمِ الْآخِرِ
وَالْمَلَائِكَةِ وَالْكِتَابِ وَالنَّبِيِّينَ  

(Sahih International)
Righteousness is not that you turn your faces toward the east or the west, but [true] righteousness is [in] one who believes in Allah , the Last Day, the angels, the Book, and the prophets.
-Sura Al-Baqarah, Ayah 177

آمَنَ الرَّسُولُ بِمَا أُنْزِلَ إِلَيْهِ مِنْ رَبِّهِ وَالْمُؤْمِنُونَ ۚ كُلٌّ آمَنَ بِاللَّهِ وَمَلَائِكَتِهِ وَكُتُبِهِ وَرُسُلِهِ   لَا نُفَرِّقُ بَيْنَ أَحَدٍ مِنْ رُسُلِهِ ۚ وَقَالُوا سَمِعْنَا وَأَطَعْنَا ۖ غُفْرَانَكَ رَبَّنَا وَإِلَيْكَ الْمَصِيرُ

(Sahih International)
The Messenger has believed in what was revealed to him from his Lord, and [so have] the believers. All of them have believed in Allah and His angels and His books and His messengers,[saying], "We make no distinction between any of His messengers." And they say, "We hear and we obey. [We seek] Your forgiveness, our Lord, and to You is the [final] destination."
-Sura Al-Baqarah, Ayah 285


يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا آمِنُوا بِاللَّهِ وَرَسُولِهِ وَالْكِتَابِ الَّذِي نَزَّلَ عَلَىٰ رَسُولِهِ وَالْكِتَابِ الَّذِي أَنْزَلَ مِنْ قَبْلُ ۚ وَمَنْ يَكْفُرْ بِاللَّهِ وَمَلَائِكَتِهِ وَكُتُبِهِ وَرُسُلِهِ وَالْيَوْمِ الْآخِرِ فَقَدْ ضَلَّ ضَلَالًا بَعِيدًا

(Sahih International)
O  you  who  have  believed,  believe  in Allah and  His  Messenger  and  the  Book  that  He sent  down  upon  His  Messenger  and  the  Scripture  which  He  sent  down  before. And whoever  disbelieves  in Allah ,  His  angels,  His  books,  His  messengers,  and  the  Last  Day has  certainly  gone  far  astray.
-Sura An-Nisa', Ayah 136

A bit more harder, please, and without tahreef too!
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: iceman on July 29, 2018, 11:17:06 AM
Hmm... let us see once again:

يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا أَطِيعُوا اللَّهَ وَأَطِيعُوا الرَّسُولَ وَأُولِي الْأَمْرِ مِنْكُمْ  ۖ فَإِنْ تَنَازَعْتُمْ فِي شَيْءٍ فَرُدُّوهُ إِلَى اللَّهِ وَالرَّسُولِ إِنْ كُنْتُمْ تُؤْمِنُونَ بِاللَّهِ وَالْيَوْمِ الْآخِرِ ۚ ذَٰلِكَ خَيْرٌ وَأَحْسَنُ تَأْوِيلًا

(Sahih International)
O  you  who  have  believed,  obey Allah and  obey  the  Messenger  and  those  in  authority among  you .  And  if  you  disagree  over  anything,  refer  it  to Allah and  the  Messenger,  if you  should  believe  in Allah and  the  Last  Day.  That  is  the  best  [way]  and  best  in  result.

-Sura An-Nisa', Ayah 59

Hmm... those in red above STILL doesn't sound like the obligation to believe in imamah at all.

Obligation to "believe in something" should sound like those in blue:



لَيْسَ الْبِرَّ أَنْ تُوَلُّوا وُجُوهَكُمْ قِبَلَ الْمَشْرِقِ وَالْمَغْرِبِ وَلَٰكِنَّ الْبِرَّ مَنْ آمَنَ بِاللَّهِ وَالْيَوْمِ الْآخِرِ
وَالْمَلَائِكَةِ وَالْكِتَابِ وَالنَّبِيِّينَ  

(Sahih International)
Righteousness is not that you turn your faces toward the east or the west, but [true] righteousness is [in] one who believes in Allah , the Last Day, the angels, the Book, and the prophets.
-Sura Al-Baqarah, Ayah 177

آمَنَ الرَّسُولُ بِمَا أُنْزِلَ إِلَيْهِ مِنْ رَبِّهِ وَالْمُؤْمِنُونَ ۚ كُلٌّ آمَنَ بِاللَّهِ وَمَلَائِكَتِهِ وَكُتُبِهِ وَرُسُلِهِ   لَا نُفَرِّقُ بَيْنَ أَحَدٍ مِنْ رُسُلِهِ ۚ وَقَالُوا سَمِعْنَا وَأَطَعْنَا ۖ غُفْرَانَكَ رَبَّنَا وَإِلَيْكَ الْمَصِيرُ

(Sahih International)
The Messenger has believed in what was revealed to him from his Lord, and [so have] the believers. All of them have believed in Allah and His angels and His books and His messengers,[saying], "We make no distinction between any of His messengers." And they say, "We hear and we obey. [We seek] Your forgiveness, our Lord, and to You is the [final] destination."
-Sura Al-Baqarah, Ayah 285


يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا آمِنُوا بِاللَّهِ وَرَسُولِهِ وَالْكِتَابِ الَّذِي نَزَّلَ عَلَىٰ رَسُولِهِ وَالْكِتَابِ الَّذِي أَنْزَلَ مِنْ قَبْلُ ۚ وَمَنْ يَكْفُرْ بِاللَّهِ وَمَلَائِكَتِهِ وَكُتُبِهِ وَرُسُلِهِ وَالْيَوْمِ الْآخِرِ فَقَدْ ضَلَّ ضَلَالًا بَعِيدًا

(Sahih International)
O  you  who  have  believed,  believe  in Allah and  His  Messenger  and  the  Book  that  He sent  down  upon  His  Messenger  and  the  Scripture  which  He  sent  down  before. And whoever  disbelieves  in Allah ,  His  angels,  His  books,  His  messengers,  and  the  Last  Day has  certainly  gone  far  astray.
-Sura An-Nisa', Ayah 136

A bit more harder, please, and without tahreef too!

"Hmm... those in red above STILL doesn't sound like the obligation to believe in imamah at all"

The obligation to believe that there is someone put third in line in authority after Allah and his Messenger s.a.w. See the sequence. 😊

Those three who rushed to Saqifa only went there to prevent something terrible from happening. 😊

You believe in Allah by accepting what ever he says, you believe in the Angels regardless of the numbers, you believe in judgement day and what ever has been said about it, but when it comes to the Messenger s.a.w the response was 'sorry the book of Allah is enough for us'  we're not interested in what you have to right down for us. This is what the Prophet s.a.w had to deal with and that's what we're putting up with.
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: iceman on July 29, 2018, 11:22:57 AM
Yes Allah did say this;

"And whoever  disbelieves  in Allah ,  His  angels,  His  books,  His  messengers,  and  the  Last  Day has  certainly  gone  far  astray:

But have you forgotten what the Prophet s.a.w said?

آتُوْنِیْ بِدَوَاتٍ وَ قِرْطَاسٍ اِکْتُبُ لَکُمْ کِتَابًا لَنْ تَضِلُّوْا بَعْدَہ اَبَدًا

"Fetch me a pen and a paper so that I write a will for you so that you are not deviated after me.”

And what was the response?

Umar said:

اِنَّ النَّبِیَّ غَلَبَہ الْوَجْعُ وَ عِنْدَکُمْ کِتَابُ اللهِ، حَسْبُنَا کِتَابُ اللهِ۔

"Surely the Prophet is overcome by illness (suggesting that his words should not be taken seriously).The Book of Allah is with you. The Book of Allah is sufficient for us!!!”

See what the Prophet s.a.w had to put up with. And do you see what we're putting up with.

So who was responsible for the deviation when it comes to the Ummah?

You wanted me to try harder, well there you have it. Is that good enough or you still not satisfied?
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: Abu Muhammad on July 29, 2018, 12:19:45 PM
"Hmm... those in red above STILL doesn't sound like the obligation to believe in imamah at all"

The obligation to believe that there is someone put third in line in authority after Allah and his Messenger s.a.w. See the sequence. 😊

Those three who rushed to Saqifa only went there to prevent something terrible from happening. 😊

You believe in Allah by accepting what ever he says, you believe in the Angels regardless of the numbers, you believe in judgement day and what ever has been said about it, but when it comes to the Messenger s.a.w the response was 'sorry the book of Allah is enough for us'  we're not interested in what you have to right down for us. This is what the Prophet s.a.w had to deal with and that's what we're putting up with.

Hmm... still couldn't find "... Aamana bil imamati ahlil bayt"? Thank you...

Thus, the following is confirmed:
1. Zakah:
a) Obligation to give Zakah - mentioned in the Quran
b) Punishment for not giving zakah - not mentioned in the Quran

2. Imamah:
a) Obligation to believe in Imamah - not mentioned in the Quran
b) Punishment for disbelieving in imamah - not mentioned in Quran (off course not since there were no obligation in the first place!)
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: muslim720 on July 29, 2018, 09:41:36 PM
As fast as I'm concerned when it comes to hadiths and narrations then Qur'an is the scale. If you can find it in the Qur'an, not necessarily in black and white and as you want, even an indication or hint is enough.

Are you denying that there is more than just a hint (when it comes to Zakat) in the Qur'an?  And what would you call someone who, for example, deems five daily prayers as no longer applicable?  Or fasting?  Or Hajj?

Quote
Once again 'Allah has declared' ok, where?  The declaration has to be somewhere.

Where?  Go ask your 12th Imam who can then vouch for your 6th Imam (ra)!  After all, that is the duty of the 12th one, to guide you.

You have a problem with the words of Imam Jafar As-Sadiq (ra) as narrated by his "companions" in books compiled by your scholars.  My task was to show you proof from your hujjah; your obligation now is to go grab the collars of your scholars or 12th Imam and demand where "Allah has declared" (till the end) in the Qur'an.
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: iceman on July 30, 2018, 06:53:24 AM
Hmm... still couldn't find "... Aamana bil imamati ahlil bayt"? Thank you...

Thus, the following is confirmed:
1. Zakah:
a) Obligation to give Zakah - mentioned in the Quran
b) Punishment for not giving zakah - not mentioned in the Quran

2. Imamah:
a) Obligation to believe in Imamah - not mentioned in the Quran
b) Punishment for disbelieving in imamah - not mentioned in Quran (off course not since there were no obligation in the first place!)

"Hmm... still couldn't find "... Aamana bil imamati ahlil bayt"? Thank you..."

If you ask Allah and his Messenger s.a.w with an open mind you'll get the answer. If you're going to continue with trying your best to undermine the other then you're not looking for an answer but in fact trying your best to get the other to agree with you.

Allah has put someone third in line in authority and the Messenger s.a.w has declared them. I know you so desperately want to save Saqifah but it's not happening. The ones before you disregarded what the Messenger s.a.w had to say, write and offer so what are you compared to them.
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: iceman on July 30, 2018, 07:44:56 AM
Are you denying that there is more than just a hint (when it comes to Zakat) in the Qur'an?  And what would you call someone who, for example, deems five daily prayers as no longer applicable?  Or fasting?  Or Hajj?

Where?  Go ask your 12th Imam who can then vouch for your 6th Imam (ra)!  After all, that is the duty of the 12th one, to guide you.

You have a problem with the words of Imam Jafar As-Sadiq (ra) as narrated by his "companions" in books compiled by your scholars.  My task was to show you proof from your hujjah; your obligation now is to go grab the collars of your scholars or 12th Imam and demand where "Allah has declared" (till the end) in the Qur'an.

"Are you denying that there is more than just a hint (when it comes to Zakat) in the Qur'an?"

No, I've been asking you boys the following constantly and haven't got a reply till now.

When Allah has given you a choice who to give Zakah to then who is the Caliph/ruler to appoint people as Zakah collectors and get them to force people to hand over Zakah money or to force people into paying Zakah. And if they refuse then they are to be executed. Is this based on Shariah law or is it a governmental decision? That's all I've asked till now.
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: iceman on July 30, 2018, 12:26:29 PM
Are you denying that there is more than just a hint (when it comes to Zakat) in the Qur'an?  And what would you call someone who, for example, deems five daily prayers as no longer applicable?  Or fasting?  Or Hajj?

Where?  Go ask your 12th Imam who can then vouch for your 6th Imam (ra)!  After all, that is the duty of the 12th one, to guide you.

You have a problem with the words of Imam Jafar As-Sadiq (ra) as narrated by his "companions" in books compiled by your scholars.  My task was to show you proof from your hujjah; your obligation now is to go grab the collars of your scholars or 12th Imam and demand where "Allah has declared" (till the end) in the Qur'an.

"And what would you call someone who, for example, deems five daily prayers as no longer applicable?  Or fasting?  Or Hajj?"

Come on,  for heavens sake lets use our senses (aql). Once you've entered Islam by becoming a Muslim either you will remain by staying on as a Muslim or you'll decide Islam is not for you and you'll decide to leave. Why on earth would you remain a Muslim and deny, for example prayers or fasting, as being part of Shariah and Islam which are crystal clear. Why one earth would you do that? Does this sound even logica?
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: muslim720 on July 30, 2018, 02:51:34 PM
No, I've been asking you boys the following constantly and haven't got a reply till now.

Precisely the problem we are having!  You have asked too many stupid questions instead of reflecting on Qur'an (where Zakat is clearly mentioned as an obligation) and Shi'i hadiths (which state that failure to pay Zakat renders one outside the fold of Islam who can be beheaded).

Quote
When Allah has given you a choice who to give Zakah to then who is the Caliph/ruler to appoint people as Zakah collectors and get them to force people to hand over Zakah money or to force people into paying Zakah.

What choice are you talking about?  There are categories of people who can benefit from Zakat.  Handing over your Zakat to a ruler or ruler-appointed collector is not paying them or filling their pockets; they, in turn, distribute all the collected Zakat among the categories mentioned in the Qur'an.  How long will you play dumb for?  I mean, you were the one to quote online Zakat-collecting websites to make your point so you should be the last one to question the handing over of Zakat to an entity whose sole purpose is to collect Zakat from people and then distribute it among the needy.

Quote
And if they refuse then they are to be executed. Is this based on Shariah law or is it a governmental decision?

According to Imam Jafar As-Sadiq (ra), who is hujjah upon you, this is based on Shariah, in fact as per the Will of Allah (swt), recorded in a book from which you derive your aqeedah and fiqh.

Quote
Come on,  for heavens sake lets use our senses (aql). Once you've entered Islam by becoming a Muslim either you will remain by staying on as a Muslim or you'll decide Islam is not for you and you'll decide to leave. Why on earth would you remain a Muslim and deny, for example prayers or fasting, as being part of Shariah and Islam which are crystal clear. Why one earth would you do that? Does this sound even logica?

While I am almost certain you and aql are polar opposites (if you had aql you would not have posted such a response as I will get to in a minute), you have caused significant damage to your own argument by issuing this statement.

You insinuated that it is illogical for one to remain a Muslim while denying prayers, fasting, Zakat, etc.  That is exactly what Malik did; claimed to be a Muslim while freeing himself and his entire tribe from the obligation of paying Zakat.  Therefore, defending such a person (as you are trying to do) is beyond illogical.  That is what we have been saying all along but it does not penetrate your thick skull.
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: Abu Muhammad on July 30, 2018, 03:50:34 PM
"Hmm... still couldn't find "... Aamana bil imamati ahlil bayt"? Thank you..."

If you ask Allah and his Messenger s.a.w with an open mind you'll get the answer. If you're going to continue with trying your best to undermine the other then you're not looking for an answer but in fact trying your best to get the other to agree with you.

Allah has put someone third in line in authority and the Messenger s.a.w has declared them. I know you so desperately want to save Saqifah but it's not happening. The ones before you disregarded what the Messenger s.a.w had to say, write and offer so what are you compared to them.

For the 3rd attempt, still couldn't find any explicit verse for the most important pillar of Twelver Shi'ism after shahadah. Don't lose heart. You are not alone. Every Twelvers including your scholars are the same.

Thus, re-affirmed yet again the following:
1. Zakah:
a) Obligation to give Zakah - mentioned in the Quran
b) Punishment for not giving zakah - not mentioned in the Quran

2. Imamah:
a) Obligation to believe in Imamah - not mentioned in the Quran
b) Punishment for disbelieving in imamah - not mentioned in Quran (off course not since there were no obligation in the first place!)
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: iceman on July 30, 2018, 04:56:12 PM
For the 3rd attempt, still couldn't find any explicit verse for the most important pillar of Twelver Shi'ism after shahadah. Don't lose heart. You are not alone. Every Twelvers including your scholars are the same.

Thus, re-affirmed yet again the following:
1. Zakah:
a) Obligation to give Zakah - mentioned in the Quran
b) Punishment for not giving zakah - not mentioned in the Quran

2. Imamah:
a) Obligation to believe in Imamah - not mentioned in the Quran
b) Punishment for disbelieving in imamah - not mentioned in Quran (off course not since there were no obligation in the first place!)

Still arrogant and playing blind to defend Saqifa and its personalities. Don't worry you're not alone in this. I completely understand your problem. The foundations of your belief, in fact your life, depend on Saqifa and just a handful of personalities. You aint dumb nor stupid. Deep down you know what went on after the Prophet's s.a.w final pilgrimage until his death. Things really took a different turn after that. You are very much aware of it. But you have to cover it. It's the only way for you. 😊
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: iceman on July 30, 2018, 07:23:44 PM
Precisely the problem we are having!  You have asked too many stupid questions instead of reflecting on Qur'an (where Zakat is clearly mentioned as an obligation) and Shi'i hadiths (which state that failure to pay Zakat renders one outside the fold of Islam who can be beheaded).

What choice are you talking about?  There are categories of people who can benefit from Zakat.  Handing over your Zakat to a ruler or ruler-appointed collector is not paying them or filling their pockets; they, in turn, distribute all the collected Zakat among the categories mentioned in the Qur'an.  How long will you play dumb for?  I mean, you were the one to quote online Zakat-collecting websites to make your point so you should be the last one to question the handing over of Zakat to an entity whose sole purpose is to collect Zakat from people and then distribute it among the needy.

According to Imam Jafar As-Sadiq (ra), who is hujjah upon you, this is based on Shariah, in fact as per the Will of Allah (swt), recorded in a book from which you derive your aqeedah and fiqh.

While I am almost certain you and aql are polar opposites (if you had aql you would not have posted such a response as I will get to in a minute), you have caused significant damage to your own argument by issuing this statement.

You insinuated that it is illogical for one to remain a Muslim while denying prayers, fasting, Zakat, etc.  That is exactly what Malik did; claimed to be a Muslim while freeing himself and his entire tribe from the obligation of paying Zakat.  Therefore, defending such a person (as you are trying to do) is beyond illogical.  That is what we have been saying all along but it does not penetrate your thick skull.

You think the questions are too many and stupid, because in reality you know you can't answer them nor do you have any intellectual or civilised response. Also you're the judge, the jury and the executioners all in one.

It doesn't matter whether they're Shia hadiths or narrations or be it Sunni, Qur'an is the scale and the chart for check and balance.Secondly I do not have an issue with someone's statement or opinion based on what thy believe in but if something is put forward and said that 'it is from Allah or Allah has declared this' then I most certainly would like to know where Allah said or declared it and that's where the Qur'an comes in.

Or at least accept that apart from the Qur'an other sources are just as reliable and authentic and should be acceptable on behalf of Allah. That's all I'm asking and want to know. And you're ĺstill dancing your way around this. And the reason is that you don't want to be cornered into admitting and accepting. This is where you're being dishonest with yourself.
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: muslim720 on July 30, 2018, 08:01:18 PM
Qur'an is the scale and the chart for check and balance.

Are you renegading from Hadith Thaqalayn?

Quote
Secondly I do not have an issue with someone's statement or opinion based on what thy believe in but if something is put forward and said that 'it is from Allah or Allah has declared this' then I most certainly would like to know where Allah said or declared it and that's where the Qur'an comes in.

You can try to freestyle your way through this dilemma but according to your madhhab, Imams (ra) are Divinely Appointed and are infallible, therefore, Divinely Guided.  Hence, they do not give their opinion.  Now that the statement "Allah has declared it.....(till the end of the hadith)" is not found in the Qur'an, you've to concede that the Imam (ra) lied, naudhubillah!  Or you can swallow your pride and admit that Khalid (ra) was not wrong in meting out the punishment.

At the very least, in line with your previous response in which you deemed it illogical for a person to write off Qur'anic injunctions (for example, five pillars, etc) while calling himself or herself a Muslim, admit that Malik became an apostate (for refusing to pay Zakat and urging his tribe to do the same).

Quote
Or at least accept that apart from the Qur'an other sources are just as reliable and authentic and should be acceptable on behalf of Allah.

Why do you want me to accept such a notion when you have already given almost every attribute of Allah (swt) to your Imams (ra)?  You and I know that in your madhhab "other sources are just as reliable and authentic and should be acceptable on behalf of Allah", namely the Imams (ra).  So instead of asking me an irrelevant question, why don't you explain your disobedience towards Imam Jafar As-Sadiq (ra)?  Is it not enough for you that he declared those who refuse to pay Zakat to be apostates and has demanded for them to be beheaded?

By the way, the following two statements are dichotomous:
"Qur'an is the scale and the chart for check and balance".

"apart from the Qur'an other sources are just as reliable and authentic and should be acceptable on behalf of Allah".
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: iceman on July 30, 2018, 11:05:19 PM
Are you renegading from Hadith Thaqalayn?

You can try to freestyle your way through this dilemma but according to your madhhab, Imams (ra) are Divinely Appointed and are infallible, therefore, Divinely Guided.  Hence, they do not give their opinion.  Now that the statement "Allah has declared it.....(till the end of the hadith)" is not found in the Qur'an, you've to concede that the Imam (ra) lied, naudhubillah!  Or you can swallow your pride and admit that Khalid (ra) was not wrong in meting out the punishment.

At the very least, in line with your previous response in which you deemed it illogical for a person to write off Qur'anic injunctions (for example, five pillars, etc) while calling himself or herself a Muslim, admit that Malik became an apostate (for refusing to pay Zakat and urging his tribe to do the same).

Why do you want me to accept such a notion when you have already given almost every attribute of Allah (swt) to your Imams (ra)?  You and I know that in your madhhab "other sources are just as reliable and authentic and should be acceptable on behalf of Allah", namely the Imams (ra).  So instead of asking me an irrelevant question, why don't you explain your disobedience towards Imam Jafar As-Sadiq (ra)?  Is it not enough for you that he declared those who refuse to pay Zakat to be apostates and has demanded for them to be beheaded?

By the way, the following two statements are dichotomous:
"Qur'an is the scale and the chart for check and balance".

"apart from the Qur'an other sources are just as reliable and authentic and should be acceptable on behalf of Allah".

"Are you renegading from Hadith Thaqalayn"

No, just getting you to accept the fact that it's not necessary that everything has to be in the Qur'an.

We're not talking about my Madhab, we're talking about hadith and narrations, do you accept and reject on the basis of what suits your desire because you've already made your mind up and have an ideology that you go by or do you have check and balance?

"Now that the statement "Allah has declared it.....(till the end of the hadith)" is not found in the Qur'an,"

FINALLY, THANK THE LORD. Was that too difficult. You could have said that in the first place and saved a lot of time.

"you've to concede that the Imam (ra) lied, naudhubillah!"

No, there is no need for that. I've got a better idea, why don't you put aside your arrogance and accept that it's not necessary that everything has to be in and from the Qur'an just as this example.

"Or you can swallow your pride and admit that Khalid (ra) was not wrong in meting out the punishment"

First you need to get the story right. Did men from Khalid’s convoy complain to Abu Bakr that Khalid acted hastily, they saw Malik and men from his tribe pray. And Abu Bakr decided to interrogate Khalid and once he did he decided that Khalid had made a grave mistake by acting without looking into something thoroughly and properly.

Then Abu Bakr gave blood money (Qisas) as compensation to Malik's brother Mutammim. Get the story right first. Malik was accused of becoming an apostate but when you look into the matter with an open mind and thoroughly then the evidence of a Companion suddenly becoming an apostate is extremely weak. And I thought you were defenders and protectors of the Sahaba.

Once a Sahabi always a Sahabi and then they can't get anything wrong. And here you accuse a Sahabi of apostasy. And if Shias do the same by looking into history and criticise and condemn certain Companions for their actions then you start jumping up and down?

"Is it not enough for you that he declared those who refuse to pay Zakat to be apostates and has demanded for them to be beheaded"

He didn't declare, it has been said that 'Allah declared', there is a difference.

"By the way, the following two statements are dichotomous:

"Qur'an is the scale and the chart for check and balance".

"apart from the Qur'an other sources are just as reliable and authentic and should be acceptable on behalf of Allah".

How?
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: Abu Muhammad on July 30, 2018, 11:10:37 PM
This was your 4th attempt but this time, you didn't even try to bring any explicit verse for the most important pillar of Twelver Shi'ism after shahadah. And I don't know who is actually playing blind here.

Again, don't lose heart as I told you that you are not alone. Every Twelvers including your scholars are the same.

Thus, keep re-affirmed again and again the following:
1. Zakah:
a) Obligation to give Zakah - mentioned in the Quran
b) Punishment for not giving zakah - not mentioned in the Quran

2. Imamah:
a) Obligation to believe in Imamah - not mentioned in the Quran
b) Punishment for disbelieving in imamah - not mentioned in Quran (off course not since there were no obligation in the first place!)

Still arrogant and playing blind to defend Saqifa and its personalities. Don't worry you're not alone in this. I completely understand your problem. The foundations of your belief, in fact your life, depend on Saqifa and just a handful of personalities. You aint dumb nor stupid. Deep down you know what went on after the Prophet's s.a.w final pilgrimage until his death. Things really took a different turn after that. You are very much aware of it. But you have to cover it. It's the only way for you. 😊

Saqifa is the foundation of our belief? LOL...
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: muslim720 on July 31, 2018, 01:12:36 AM
No, just getting you to accept the fact that it's not necessary that everything has to be in the Qur'an.

Since you believe that not everything has to be in the Qur'an, why do you then...

1.  ...restrict us to show you the decision of Abu Bakr (ra) and Khalid (ra) from the Qur'an when Zakat is clearly defined in the Qur'an?

2.  ...reject the verdict by Imam Jafar As-Sadiq (ra) who declared people like Malik to have become apostates and demanded for their beheading?

3.  ...overlook the words of Imam Jafar As-Sadiq (ra) when he, to you, is the equivalent of Qur'an personified?


Quote
We're not talking about my Madhab, we're talking about hadith and narrations, do you accept and reject on the basis of what suits your desire because you've already made your mind up and have an ideology that you go by or do you have check and balance?

The hadiths I quoted you are all sahih so stop trying to wiggle your way out.  You're failing!


Quote
FINALLY, THANK THE LORD. Was that too difficult. You could have said that in the first place and saved a lot of time.

....but your infallible, Divinely Appointed 6th Imam (ra) says it was Allah (swt) who declared such a thing.  So did he lie?  Maybe you can finally answer now.


Quote
No, there is no need for that. I've got a better idea, why don't you put aside your arrogance and accept that it's not necessary that everything has to be in and from the Qur'an just as this example.

It is not in the Qur'an and you accept that not everything has to be in the Qur'an.  So when the Imam (ra) says "Allah has declared the blood of two types of people permissible", the fact that such a statement is not present in the Qur'an does not mean you can disregard the hadith.

So now you are stuck with two options:

1.  You can rubbish the hadith because Allah (swt) does not declare "the blood of two types of people permissible" (verbatim) in the Qur'an. 

                                                                             OR

2.  You must accept the words of the Imam (ra) and concede that you were wrong in asking for proof from the Qur'an while also issuing an apology for accusing Abu Bakr (ra) and Khalid (ra) of a crime they did not commit. 

I remind you that option one is no longer available to you because you have already conceded that "it's not necessary that everything has to be in the Qur'an".

Waiting for your apology!


Quote
First you need to get the story right. Did men from Khalid’s convoy complain to Abu Bakr that Khalid acted hastily, they saw Malik and men from his tribe pray. And Abu Bakr decided to interrogate Khalid and once he did he decided that Khalid had made a grave mistake by acting without looking into something thoroughly and properly.

Does not matter!  Haste or delay, Khalid (ra) did exactly what Imam Jafar As-Sadiq (ra) ordered Muslims to do (with those who refuse to pay Zakat).


Quote
Malik was accused of becoming an apostate but when you look into the matter with an open mind and thoroughly then the evidence of a Companion suddenly becoming an apostate is extremely weak.

Again, for refusing to pay Zakat, Malik became an apostate and this notion is in line with the ruling by Imam Jafar As-Sadiq (ra).

Quote
How?

Didn't expect you to see your contradiction but it would be sufficient if you address the ones I've highlighted in this post (for now)!
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: wannabe on July 31, 2018, 02:22:59 AM
Quote
However, we came to learn from humanity’s experience that all methods and systems developed by man are flawed and imperfect. Indeed, the most perfect form of government we ever reached is one where a divinely chosen individual guided by God rules over the subjects and decides for them, this system is recognized by humanity as “The Prophethood”.
i was thinking :-
1. in the light of the above statement and
2. [Shakir 5:3] ...This day have I perfected for you your religion and completed My favor on you and chosen for you Islam as a religion;...

How could Allah have perfected for us our religion and completed His favor upon us, when the single most important thing that could have prevented us from being divisive ie  who should be our leader (imam), is not mentioned at all by Allah through His Prophet's mouth? or did i miss anything?
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: Hani on July 31, 2018, 07:02:35 AM
i was thinking :-
1. in the light of the above statement and
2. [Shakir 5:3] ...This day have I perfected for you your religion and completed My favor on you and chosen for you Islam as a religion;...

How could Allah have perfected for us our religion and completed His favor upon us, when the single most important thing that could have prevented us from being divisive ie  who should be our leader (imam), is not mentioned at all by Allah through His Prophet's mouth? or did i miss anything?

Not a sound statement, humans are programmed to be most quarrelsome and divisive no matter what you do. Unless you have prophets guiding you 24/7 through miracles, you will continue to have disagreements with others; the point of the religion is to follow the spiritual and moral guidelines then exert an effort to deal with secondary topics like politics and economy based on your expertise and knowledge.

Perfecting a religion simply means clarifying the message and completing the tenets and rituals, however our lifestyles, our daily struggles and dilemmas, all far from "perfect" nor was anything meant to be perfect as it relates to humanity. Take the Twelvers, they believe `Ali is the divine leader, yet when he ruled how did that stop the nation from being divisive? Whether he was divine or not divine the same exact outcome would have happened, because we are human and that's what you're dealing with.
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: iceman on July 31, 2018, 10:03:19 AM
Not a sound statement, humans are programmed to be most quarrelsome and divisive no matter what you do. Unless you have prophets guiding you 24/7 through miracles, you will continue to have disagreements with others; the point of the religion is to follow the spiritual and moral guidelines then exert an effort to deal with secondary topics like politics and economy based on your expertise and knowledge.

Perfecting a religion simply means clarifying the message and completing the tenets and rituals, however our lifestyles, our daily struggles and dilemmas, all far from "perfect" nor was anything meant to be perfect as it relates to humanity. Take the Twelvers, they believe `Ali is the divine leader, yet when he ruled how did that stop the nation from being divisive? Whether he was divine or not divine the same exact outcome would have happened, because we are human and that's what you're dealing with.

The Prophet s.a.w was and still is there to guide us 24/7, that is what sharia law is all about.  Yes humans are programmed to be most quarrelsome even when the Prophet s.a.w was around. They didn't even spare him.

The Prophet s.a.w only wanted to write something so they (companions/Ummah) don't deviate. But they weren't interested. They had the book of Allah among them and they thought that was enough.

See what the problem is and where it developed from. It is clear that Allah wouldn't leave Qur'an and Sunnah in the hands of anybody who got into authority. Allah has mentioned third in line in authority after him and the Prophet s.a.w pointed them out on numerous occasions. Allah purified them to the state of purification but others had different intentions. You know what previous  nations were  like and how much they followed their Messenger/Prophet's advice. This one didn't come out any different.
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: Mythbuster1 on July 31, 2018, 11:45:59 AM
You know what previous  nations were  like and how much they followed their Messenger/Prophet's advice. This one didn't come out any different.

I beg to differ.............surah imran..........”You are the best nation produced [as an example] for mankind. You enjoin what is right and forbid what is wrong and believe in Allah . If only the People of the Scripture had believed, it would have been better for them. Among them are believers, but most of them are defiantly disobedient.”

As well as Allah swt being pleased with the sahaba ra who followed the prophet saw

Muhammad is the Messenger of Allaah. And those who are with him are severe against disbelievers, and merciful among themselves. You see them bowing and falling down prostrate (in prayer), seeking Bounty from Allaah and (His) Good Pleasure. The mark of them (i.e. of their Faith) is on their faces (foreheads) from the traces of prostration (during prayers). This is their description in the Tawraat (Torah). But their description in the Injeel (Gospel) is like a (sown) seed which sends forth its shoot, then makes it strong, and becomes thick and it stands straight on its stem, delighting the sowers, that He may enrage the disbelievers with them. Allaah has promised those among them who believe (i.e. all those who follow Islamic Monotheism, the religion of Prophet Muhammad till the Day of Resurrection) and do righteous good deeds, forgiveness and a mighty reward (i.e. Paradise)”

[al-Fath 48:29]

.......so yes we are greatly different from other nations, see how EASY Quran defends the truth and especially the truthful ones who supported the Nabi saw and His message, so stop with your nonsense please and your alien ideas which have no basis in the divine book.

You lot differed and added alien concepts that the prophet saw didn’t say or insinuate so you Shiites are like them other nations not listening to prophets as and lowering their status in comparison to normal human imams, in other words just like the previous nations disregarding previous prophets status, you are doing the same and raising later born humans status higher than Allah swt’s CHOSEN DIVINE PROPHETS.


Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: iceman on July 31, 2018, 12:40:33 PM
i was thinking :-
1. in the light of the above statement and
2. [Shakir 5:3] ...This day have I perfected for you your religion and completed My favor on you and chosen for you Islam as a religion;...

How could Allah have perfected for us our religion and completed His favor upon us, when the single most important thing that could have prevented us from being divisive ie  who should be our leader (imam), is not mentioned at all by Allah through His Prophet's mouth? or did i miss anything?

Beautifully put forward and then unfortunately back to square one again. I was going to mention this verse next but there's a lot going on.

"This day have I perfected for you your religion and completed My favor on you and chosen for you Islam as a religion;... "

What exactly happened on that particular day? Surely something must have occurred? Would you mind telling me what happened where religion was perfected on that day, before this day religion wasn't perfected, also Allah completed his favours upon the Muslims but without what happened favours were incomplete, and Islam was finally and fully chosen? Come on, what exactly happened?
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: iceman on July 31, 2018, 02:58:09 PM
I beg to differ.............surah imran..........”You are the best nation produced [as an example] for mankind. You enjoin what is right and forbid what is wrong and believe in Allah . If only the People of the Scripture had believed, it would have been better for them. Among them are believers, but most of them are defiantly disobedient.”

As well as Allah swt being pleased with the sahaba ra who followed the prophet saw

Muhammad is the Messenger of Allaah. And those who are with him are severe against disbelievers, and merciful among themselves. You see them bowing and falling down prostrate (in prayer), seeking Bounty from Allaah and (His) Good Pleasure. The mark of them (i.e. of their Faith) is on their faces (foreheads) from the traces of prostration (during prayers). This is their description in the Tawraat (Torah). But their description in the Injeel (Gospel) is like a (sown) seed which sends forth its shoot, then makes it strong, and becomes thick and it stands straight on its stem, delighting the sowers, that He may enrage the disbelievers with them. Allaah has promised those among them who believe (i.e. all those who follow Islamic Monotheism, the religion of Prophet Muhammad till the Day of Resurrection) and do righteous good deeds, forgiveness and a mighty reward (i.e. Paradise)”

[al-Fath 48:29]

.......so yes we are greatly different from other nations, see how EASY Quran defends the truth and especially the truthful ones who supported the Nabi saw and His message, so stop with your nonsense please and your alien ideas which have no basis in the divine book.

You lot differed and added alien concepts that the prophet saw didn’t say or insinuate so you Shiites are like them other nations not listening to prophets as and lowering their status in comparison to normal human imams, in other words just like the previous nations disregarding previous prophets status, you are doing the same and raising later born humans status higher than Allah swt’s CHOSEN DIVINE PROPHETS.

As well as Allah swt being pleased with the sahaba ra who followed the prophet saw"

The Sahaba? Whether Allah is pleased with them or not surely they weren't pleased with each other. They did their best to make life complicated and difficult for each other. They shed blood of each other, that's how far they went. Surely you can't keep putting them on the same platform and consider them equal and the same. And what did Caliphate bring, violence and threatening behaviour on the Muslims by the Muslims.

"so stop with your nonsense please and your alien ideas which have no basis in the divine book"

Are you going to tell me what Umar ibn Al Khataab told the people that 'you have the book of Allah with you and that should be sufficient for us" ? And you're telling me that they believed in the Prophet s.a.w and took every word of his ?
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: wannabe on July 31, 2018, 03:50:35 PM
Not a sound statement,
page 2/123, Kitab-ul-Saqifah, a bit more longer extract
"Humanity strived throughout the ages to develop an ideal way of selecting leaders to govern its affairs. A number of modern nations decided that every citizen can cast his vote in a box thus producing a leader selected by the majority in a democratic process. Some thinkers found that the rule of the elites or philosophers was best, because the fate of the nation cannot be entrusted to commoners and laymen. Others believed that certain higher races or designated bloodlines may rule over all others to avoid future chaos or bloody power struggles. However, we came to learn from humanity’s experience that all methods and systems developed by man are flawed and imperfect. Indeed, the most perfect form of government we ever reached is one where a divinely chosen individual guided by God rules over the subjects and decides for them, this system is recognized by humanity as “The Prophethood”."
i do agree that selection by man  is flawed and imperfect, not only witnessed through history but also by Quran.
[Shakir 7:155] And Musa chose out of his people seventy men for Our appointment;.....

Quote
humans are programmed to be most quarrelsome and divisive no matter what you do.
[Shakir 11:119] Except those on whom your Lord has mercy; and for this did He create them; and the word of your Lord is fulfilled: Certainly I will fill hell with the jinn and the men, all together.
Quote
Unless you have prophets guiding you 24/7 through miracles, you will continue to have disagreements with others; the point of the religion is to follow the spiritual and moral guidelines then exert an effort to deal with secondary topics like politics and economy based on your expertise and knowledge.

Perfecting a religion simply means clarifying the message and completing the tenets and rituals, however our lifestyles, our daily struggles and dilemmas, all far from "perfect" nor was anything meant to be perfect as it relates to humanity. Take the Twelvers, they believe `Ali is the divine leader, yet when he ruled how did that stop the nation from being divisive? Whether he was divine or not divine the same exact outcome would have happened, because we are human and that's what you're dealing with.
honestly, i don't have enough knowledge to give a meaningful comment.
however, i believe
[Shakir 6:38] And there is no animal that walks upon the earth nor a bird that flies with its two wings but (they are) genera like yourselves; We have not neglected anything in the Book, then to their Lord shall they be gathered.
[Shakir 4:83] And when there comes to them news of security or fear they spread it abroad; and if they had referred it to the Messenger and to those in authority among them, those among them who can search out the knowledge of it would have known it, and were it not for the grace of Allah upon you and His mercy, you would have certainly followed the Shaitan save a few.
Allahu a'lam.
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: iceman on July 31, 2018, 04:16:56 PM
"You lot differed and added alien concepts that the prophet saw didn’t say or insinuate so you Shiites are like them other nations not listening to prophets as and lowering their status in comparison to normal human imams, in other words just like the previous nations disregarding previous prophets status, you are doing the same and raising later born humans status higher than Allah swt’s CHOSEN DIVINE PROPHETS."

We didn’t add anything, in fact only our belief is according to the Qur'an. We know Imamah and our Imams clearly but you certainly know where your Caliphate began but you don't know where it went from there, who to accept and reject and where it ends.That's the kind of system you believe in, man made. The only person who did listen to the Prophet s.a.w was Umar ibn Al Khataab and those who sided with him and just stuck to the Qur'an totally disregarding and sidelining the Prophet s.a.w. How long are you going to run and avoid these subjects.
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: wannabe on July 31, 2018, 04:32:06 PM
Beautifully put forward and then unfortunately back to square one again. I was going to mention this verse next but there's a lot going on.

"This day have I perfected for you your religion and completed My favor on you and chosen for you Islam as a religion;... "

What exactly happened on that particular day? Surely something must have occurred? Would you mind telling me what happened where religion was perfected on that day, before this day religion wasn't perfected, also Allah completed his favours upon the Muslims but without what happened favours were incomplete, and Islam was finally and fully chosen? Come on, what exactly happened?
i was a salafi and then a sufi, if reading their books makes me one. the same goes with reading shia books.
i think we failed big time with respect to:
[Shakir 3:103] And hold fast by the covenant of Allah all together and be not disunited,
[Shakir 30:32] Of those who divided their religion and became sects, every sect rejoicing in what they had with them
let's not worsen the matter. there's a way out.
[Shakir 5:48] ... therefore strive with one another to hasten to virtuous deeds; to Allah is your return, of all (of you), so He will let you know that in which you differed;
Allahu a'lam
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: Mythbuster1 on July 31, 2018, 07:32:37 PM
As well as Allah swt being pleased with the sahaba ra who followed the prophet saw"

The Sahaba? Whether Allah is pleased with them or not surely they weren't pleased with each other. They did their best to make life complicated and difficult for each other. They shed blood of each other, that's how far they went. Surely you can't keep putting them on the same platform and consider them equal and the same. And what did Caliphate bring, violence and threatening behaviour on the Muslims by the Muslims.

"so stop with your nonsense please and your alien ideas which have no basis in the divine book"

Are you going to tell me what Umar ibn Al Khataab told the people that 'you have the book of Allah with you and that should be sufficient for us" ? And you're telling me that they believed in the Prophet s.a.w and took every word of his ?

Hey sahaba were only human they are ALLOWED to make mistakes it’s what humans do.........divine imams are so divine that one couldn’t stop his wife from getting abused or couldn’t stop himself being martyred even tho he knew the time of death......A big fat LOL

Saqifa and sahaba will always be your hate but you just can’t find that hate for the sahaba ra in the Quran it’s just in your false thoughts and evil mindset.....yet not even an inkling of any sign of divine Imamate leadership in the Quran while them sahaba ra are blessed from their mere mention in the Quran

You got 1 fairytale imam living in hiding like the sun behind the clouds who is waiting for 313 followers before he will come out and help the millions of Muslims dying..........when did the sahaba ra ever let millions die while they was scared and hiding????

again one more time........you have ALIEN ideas and concepts that are nowhere in the Quran as can be seen by your responses😁👍
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: iceman on July 31, 2018, 11:05:34 PM
i was a salafi and then a sufi, if reading their books makes me one. the same goes with reading shia books.
i think we failed big time with respect to:
[Shakir 3:103] And hold fast by the covenant of Allah all together and be not disunited,
[Shakir 30:32] Of those who divided their religion and became sects, every sect rejoicing in what they had with them
let's not worsen the matter. there's a way out.
[Shakir 5:48] ... therefore strive with one another to hasten to virtuous deeds; to Allah is your return, of all (of you), so He will let you know that in which you differed;
Allahu a'lam

You know what, this is probably the only nicest thing that anybody has said. All the rest is sectarian driven. I can't argue with what you've said. All I can contribute to this is, LIVE AND LET LIVE! STICK TO WHAT YOU BELIEVE IN AND GIVE OTHERS THE SAME RIGHT!
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: iceman on August 01, 2018, 05:58:20 AM
Hey sahaba were only human they are ALLOWED to make mistakes it’s what humans do.........divine imams are so divine that one couldn’t stop his wife from getting abused or couldn’t stop himself being martyred even tho he knew the time of death......A big fat LOL

Saqifa and sahaba will always be your hate but you just can’t find that hate for the sahaba ra in the Quran it’s just in your false thoughts and evil mindset.....yet not even an inkling of any sign of divine Imamate leadership in the Quran while them sahaba ra are blessed from their mere mention in the Quran

You got 1 fairytale imam living in hiding like the sun behind the clouds who is waiting for 313 followers before he will come out and help the millions of Muslims dying..........when did the sahaba ra ever let millions die while they was scared and hiding????

again one more time........you have ALIEN ideas and concepts that are nowhere in the Quran as can be seen by your responses😁👍

"Hey sahaba were only human they are ALLOWED to make mistakes it’s what humans do........."

ALLOWED? Nobody is ALLOWED. You make mistakes, errors or have faults then there are consequences. But first you take responsibility. Don't brush things aside just because of prestige or privilege or no one has certificate of approval because of status.

"Saqifa and sahaba will always be your hate"

I don't HATE anybody. When did I say or what made you say this? Talking about what actually happened based on reality and facts isn't hate. Point out mistakes, errors, faults and what went wrong isn't hate. Do you know what hate is? You hate me and my kind, why or what makes me say this? Because you can't see anything good, useful and right with us. There's not a single decent or positive thing that you have said about us. That spells hate.
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: iceman on August 01, 2018, 06:48:52 AM
Hey sahaba were only human they are ALLOWED to make mistakes it’s what humans do.........divine imams are so divine that one couldn’t stop his wife from getting abused or couldn’t stop himself being martyred even tho he knew the time of death......A big fat LOL

Saqifa and sahaba will always be your hate but you just can’t find that hate for the sahaba ra in the Quran it’s just in your false thoughts and evil mindset.....yet not even an inkling of any sign of divine Imamate leadership in the Quran while them sahaba ra are blessed from their mere mention in the Quran

You got 1 fairytale imam living in hiding like the sun behind the clouds who is waiting for 313 followers before he will come out and help the millions of Muslims dying..........when did the sahaba ra ever let millions die while they was scared and hiding????

again one more time........you have ALIEN ideas and concepts that are nowhere in the Quran as can be seen by your responses😁👍

"divine imams are so divine that one couldn’t stop his wife from getting abused or couldn’t stop himself being martyred even tho he knew the time of death......A big fat LOL"

Are you serious? Tell me who goes off topic and thread. You boys violate any principle and break any rule, you can say what ever you like and want and that's how it is, have you boys got a free pass or certificate to do, say and behave as you please. No check and balance! what, the admins and mods are.there just to select and pick certain fish.

"while them sahaba ra are blessed from their mere mention in the Quran"

Where in the Qur'an are these Sahaba mentioned and praised?

"You got 1 fairytale imam living in hiding like the sun behind the clouds"

😀 You've probably forgot that there are also two others hiding like the sun behind the clouds according to your description, Jesus and Khizar. Any loving thoughts for these two? 😊

"yet not even an inkling of any sign of divine Imamate leadership in the Qur'an"

😀 Already commented on this, there's plenty in the Qur'an but it just doesn't suit you. 😊

"when did the sahaba ra ever let millions die"

Come on, are you serious? They didn't let millions die but killed and allowed hundreds if not thousands to be killed. Jamal, Safeen, etc. It's all there let alone Malik and his clan or Hussain and his family and followers.
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: Mythbuster1 on August 01, 2018, 09:15:42 AM
"Hey sahaba were only human they are ALLOWED to make mistakes it’s what humans do........."

ALLOWED? Nobody is ALLOWED. You make mistakes, errors or have faults then there are consequences. But first you take responsibility. Don't brush things aside just because of prestige or privilege or no one has certificate of approval because of status.

"Saqifa and sahaba will always be your hate"

I don't HATE anybody. When did I say or what made you say this? Talking about what actually happened based on reality and facts isn't hate. Point out mistakes, errors, faults and what went wrong isn't hate. Do you know what hate is? You hate me and my kind, why or what makes me say this? Because you can't see anything good, useful and right with us. There's not a single decent or positive thing that you have said about us. That spells hate.

Of course humans make mistakes even the imams ra made mistakes what planet are you on? There was no major consequence unless you are a fairytale divinity Imamate believing Shiite, then saqifa was a disaster and Sahaba s erred in that.

I have Shiite friends very close and that’s that I love them for the sake of Allah swt so I wouldn’t say I hate Shias, YOU on the other hand hate saqifa and the sahaba you are even defending a kaafir like nawaira against a sahabi e rasul saw, your posts always refer to saqifa not only with me but with other posters too, just cos divine Imamate never got a chance hence it was saqifas and Sahabas fault.......come on you have NOTHING else even from Quran you can’t prove saqifa wrong yet I can prove divine Imamate is wrong and not in Quran .......simple as that.
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: Mythbuster1 on August 01, 2018, 09:47:02 AM
"divine imams are so divine that one couldn’t stop his wife from getting abused or couldn’t stop himself being martyred even tho he knew the time of death......A big fat LOL"

Are you serious? Tell me who goes off topic and thread. You boys violate any principle and break any rule, you can say what ever you like and want and that's how it is, have you boys got a free pass or certificate to do, say and behave as you please. No check and balance! what, the admins and mods are.there just to select and pick certain fish.

"while them sahaba ra are blessed from their mere mention in the Quran"

Where in the Qur'an are these Sahaba mentioned and praised?

"You got 1 fairytale imam living in hiding like the sun behind the clouds"

😀 You've probably forgot that there are also two others hiding like the sun behind the clouds according to your description, Jesus and Khizar. Any loving thoughts for these two? 😊

"yet not even an inkling of any sign of divine Imamate leadership in the Qur'an"

😀 Already commented on this, there's plenty in the Qur'an but it just doesn't suit you. 😊

"when did the sahaba ra ever let millions die"

Come on, are you serious? They didn't let millions die but killed and allowed hundreds if not thousands to be killed. Jamal, Safeen, etc. It's all there let alone Malik and his clan or Hussain and his family and followers.


Off topic? It’s a serious rebuttal to the false accusations flying in your sects ideology, does the truth hurt? It’s no point being divine if one cannot protect ones own spouse.......think about it.
Sahabas ra were much better at least they wouldn’t let no one harm their families.
It’s no insult it’s for you to ponder over.

Sahabas ra are praised in the Quran trust me it’s not hard to pull out the CLEAR verses on that subject compared to pulling out divine Imamate verse😉

No Isa as is NOT HIDING He was raised up to the heavens as Allah swt clearly states in the Quran  He was also an appointed prophet as Quran testifies to it.
Your hidden imam was put into hiding by his close shia and then in a cave without no divine authority or mention of such an important issue that you are comparing to a known prophet clearly mentioned in the Quran.

NO YOU HAVE NOTHING APART FROM CUT VERSES AND YOUR OWN COMMENTARY.........BIG FAIL😂

Ok.....imam Hussein ra.....who called him? It was kufan shiites who called him to his death and then abandoned him as is the typical case with shiites throughout history.

Kaafir nawaira deserved it alhamdulillah, but that is not millions it’s just 1, if you can count.

Jamal and siffeen was done by khawarij and your ancestors the sabaites they loved to create fitna and yes thousands were martyred.

Now back to the point I made on shia imam Mahdi, he is not gonna come out until there are 313 real Shiite followers, my argument is millions and millions of Muslims have been killed and yet this Shiite Mahdi still won’t come out until he has 313 followers even if Muslims are dying and being killed by kuffar, now that’s just stupid it doesn’t even make sense and your comparing this scared guy to a prophet raised up by Allah swt???🙃

Where’s the logic or aql in that?
Isa as is a known figure in history Shiite Mahdi is only known to shiites.
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: iceman on August 01, 2018, 01:14:13 PM

Off topic? It’s a serious rebuttal to the false accusations flying in your sects ideology, does the truth hurt? It’s no point being divine if one cannot protect ones own spouse.......think about it.
Sahabas ra were much better at least they wouldn’t let no one harm their families.
It’s no insult it’s for you to ponder over.

Sahabas ra are praised in the Quran trust me it’s not hard to pull out the CLEAR verses on that subject compared to pulling out divine Imamate verse😉

No Isa as is NOT HIDING He was raised up to the heavens as Allah swt clearly states in the Quran  He was also an appointed prophet as Quran testifies to it.
Your hidden imam was put into hiding by his close shia and then in a cave without no divine authority or mention of such an important issue that you are comparing to a known prophet clearly mentioned in the Quran.

NO YOU HAVE NOTHING APART FROM CUT VERSES AND YOUR OWN COMMENTARY.........BIG FAIL😂

Ok.....imam Hussein ra.....who called him? It was kufan shiites who called him to his death and then abandoned him as is the typical case with shiites throughout history.

Kaafir nawaira deserved it alhamdulillah, but that is not millions it’s just 1, if you can count.

Jamal and siffeen was done by khawarij and your ancestors the sabaites they loved to create fitna and yes thousands were martyred.

Now back to the point I made on shia imam Mahdi, he is not gonna come out until there are 313 real Shiite followers, my argument is millions and millions of Muslims have been killed and yet this Shiite Mahdi still won’t come out until he has 313 followers even if Muslims are dying and being killed by kuffar, now that’s just stupid it doesn’t even make sense and your comparing this scared guy to a prophet raised up by Allah swt???🙃

Where’s the logic or aql in that?
Isa as is a known figure in history Shiite Mahdi is only known to shiites.

See what I mean, you're all over the place. You don't stick to the thread and discuss according to the topic and post what is related to the subject. You boys let yourself loose and you start to bring in a mixture of things to make the thread chaotic and to cause confusion. You can't and won't stick to the subject and discuss one issue and matter at a time. In fact you don't want to discuss at all. Discussion is not your thing when your intention and aim is to undermine the other. You don't respond and address to what ever is being said. You only pick and choose what you want and comment on what suits you.
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: Mythbuster1 on August 01, 2018, 02:11:39 PM
See what I mean, you're all over the place. You don't stick to the thread and discuss according to the topic and post what is related to the subject. You boys let yourself loose and you start to bring in a mixture of things to make the thread chaotic and to cause confusion. You can't and won't stick to the subject and discuss one issue and matter at a time. In fact you don't want to discuss at all. Discussion is not your thing when your intention and aim is to undermine the other. You don't respond and address to what ever is being said. You only pick and choose what you want and comment on what suits you.

I answered what you asked from your previous post, can you read? Or do you do selective reading?

Lol now let’s get out quickly as I can and blame him for changing topics before he asks more questions I can’t answer........typical cop out😂👍

As expected you come out with many questions and when answered you or your kind do a 🏃‍♂️ 😂😂😂😂😂
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: iceman on August 02, 2018, 05:29:29 PM
https://youtu.be/HNYbEDn4M_4
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: Abu Muhammad on August 03, 2018, 10:43:50 AM
https://youtu.be/HNYbEDn4M_4

Not all people in this forum understand the language that Sheikh was speaking. Why don't you summarize it.
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: Mythbuster1 on August 03, 2018, 01:42:12 PM
https://youtu.be/HNYbEDn4M_4

Hahaha Maulana ishaq another back street mullah who has no bearing in Islam who isn’t a SCHOLAR either 😂😂😂😂

I wouldn’t waste my time watching him😉👍
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: iceman on August 04, 2018, 07:22:01 PM
Hahaha Maulana ishaq another back street mullah who has no bearing in Islam who isn’t a SCHOLAR either 😂😂😂😂

I wouldn’t waste my time watching him😉👍

Even your own kind who seem to start to disagree with you and speak differently and otherwise all of a sudden become BACK STREET MULLAHS  There's absolutely no way around you guys, is there. You have no principles or standards to begin with. So it's a no win situation no matter which way you go or look at it. CARRY ON PLAYING AROUND! Have fun.
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: iceman on August 04, 2018, 07:33:09 PM

Off topic? It’s a serious rebuttal to the false accusations flying in your sects ideology, does the truth hurt? It’s no point being divine if one cannot protect ones own spouse.......think about it.
Sahabas ra were much better at least they wouldn’t let no one harm their families.
It’s no insult it’s for you to ponder over.

Sahabas ra are praised in the Quran trust me it’s not hard to pull out the CLEAR verses on that subject compared to pulling out divine Imamate verse😉

No Isa as is NOT HIDING He was raised up to the heavens as Allah swt clearly states in the Quran  He was also an appointed prophet as Quran testifies to it.
Your hidden imam was put into hiding by his close shia and then in a cave without no divine authority or mention of such an important issue that you are comparing to a known prophet clearly mentioned in the Quran.

NO YOU HAVE NOTHING APART FROM CUT VERSES AND YOUR OWN COMMENTARY.........BIG FAIL😂

Ok.....imam Hussein ra.....who called him? It was kufan shiites who called him to his death and then abandoned him as is the typical case with shiites throughout history.

Kaafir nawaira deserved it alhamdulillah, but that is not millions it’s just 1, if you can count.

Jamal and siffeen was done by khawarij and your ancestors the sabaites they loved to create fitna and yes thousands were martyred.

Now back to the point I made on shia imam Mahdi, he is not gonna come out until there are 313 real Shiite followers, my argument is millions and millions of Muslims have been killed and yet this Shiite Mahdi still won’t come out until he has 313 followers even if Muslims are dying and being killed by kuffar, now that’s just stupid it doesn’t even make sense and your comparing this scared guy to a prophet raised up by Allah swt???🙃

Where’s the logic or aql in that?
Isa as is a known figure in history Shiite Mahdi is only known to shiites.

Start a separate thread rather than bringing in material which is irrelevant and by all means I'll discuss it. Don't turn the thread into a mixture which you normally do.

With all due respect towards the Sahaba since you've brought them in we clearly know want went on after Muhammad s.a.w. As soon as they got into authority and gained power violence and threatening behaviour was used against the Muslims. Muslims turned harsh and hard on Muslims and they fought each other. And by all means give me the verse which you can so easily pull out in praise of them.
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: iceman on August 04, 2018, 08:04:05 PM
"No Isa as is NOT HIDING He was raised up to the heavens as Allah swt clearly states in the Quran  He was also an appointed prophet as Quran testifies to it"

Why didn't Allah bother to mention this in the Bible? The Bible is the Book of God by Muslims as well as Christians, can you prove to the Christians from their book that Jesus wasn't crucified?

"Ok.....imam Hussein ra.....who called him? It was kufan shiites who called him to his death and then abandoned him as is the typical case with shiites throughout history"

It was the kufan Muslims who called him. The same Muslims who gave their allegiance to Muawiya. Syria and Iraq were under Muawiyah's control and these were supporters of Muawiyah who learned of Yazeed's ways and weren't happy with that.

It was the sixth Caliph of the Muslims and the Muslim governor Ubaydallah Ibne Ziyaad and the Muslim army who killed Hussain and his Shias.

Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: iceman on August 04, 2018, 09:23:16 PM
"Jamal and siffeen was done by khawarij and your ancestors the sabaites they loved to create fitna and yes thousands were martyred:

Jamal was done by Aisha along with certain Companions of the Prophet s.a.w. on demand of killers of Usman brought to justice. Safeen was also done for the same reason by certain Companions especially Muawiyah. Since when did the individuals become my ancestors?
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: iceman on August 04, 2018, 10:07:05 PM
Don't look for excuses and hide behind them when it comes to Jamal, Safeen and Karbala. Surely Shias can't be behind everything, or were they really that strong and powerful. Blame the actual people who were involved and responsible.

"Now back to the point I made on shia imam Mahdi, he is not gonna come out until there are 313 real Shiite followers, my argument is millions and millions of Muslims have been killed and yet this Shiite Mahdi still won’t come out until he has 313 followers even if Muslims are dying and being killed by kuffar"

It's got nothing to do with 'HE went into hiding and HE won't come out' Its down to the will of Allah and when he (Allah) decides. So put this 'HE' to rest.



"now that’s just stupid it doesn’t even make sense"

Jesus went into occultation, why and what for? What's the purpose and reason? Does this make any sense to you? Is there anything that makes sense to you?

"and your comparing this scared guy to a prophet raised up by Allah swt???"

If he's scared just because he's in occultation then he's not the only one. You have two others in occultation, are they scared too?

"Where’s the logic or aql in that?
Isa as is a known figure in history Shiite Mahdi is only known to shiites"

But the occultation of Jesus is only known to Muslims through the Qur'an, why not others who came before?
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: Mythbuster1 on August 05, 2018, 02:52:16 PM
Even your own kind who seem to start to disagree with you and speak differently and otherwise all of a sudden become BACK STREET MULLAHS  There's absolutely no way around you guys, is there. You have no principles or standards to begin with. So it's a no win situation no matter which way you go or look at it. CARRY ON PLAYING AROUND! Have fun.

Well better than your kind in any way shape or form but ishaq wasn’t no scholar 😂👍 keep trying mate👍

We have standards and we are showing you them but you jump onto unknown mullahs and YouTube personalities lol

You get what you ask for😜👍
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: Mythbuster1 on August 05, 2018, 03:00:53 PM
Start a separate thread rather than bringing in material which is irrelevant and by all means I'll discuss it. Don't turn the thread into a mixture which you normally do.

With all due respect towards the Sahaba since you've brought them in we clearly know want went on after Muhammad s.a.w. As soon as they got into authority and gained power violence and threatening behaviour was used against the Muslims. Muslims turned harsh and hard on Muslims and they fought each other. And by all means give me the verse which you can so easily pull out in praise of them.

Yea sure I can pull many out but I already posted a verse in praise of them.......answer to that first.

The rest is your fake unauthentic history cos you have like I said before an inner hate of saqifa and sahaba ra, it shows in your posts stands out like a sore thumb.

And yet no CLEAR sign of divine Imamate beings chosen by Allah swt........you can’t even produce a clear verse in praise of such unlike the praising of sahaba ra.

Oh boy😂
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: Mythbuster1 on August 05, 2018, 03:13:59 PM
"No Isa as is NOT HIDING He was raised up to the heavens as Allah swt clearly states in the Quran  He was also an appointed prophet as Quran testifies to it"

Why didn't Allah bother to mention this in the Bible? The Bible is the Book of God by Muslims as well as Christians, can you prove to the Christians from their book that Jesus wasn't crucified?

"Ok.....imam Hussein ra.....who called him? It was kufan shiites who called him to his death and then abandoned him as is the typical case with shiites throughout history"

It was the kufan Muslims who called him. The same Muslims who gave their allegiance to Muawiya. Syria and Iraq were under Muawiyah's control and these were supporters of Muawiyah who learned of Yazeed's ways and weren't happy with that.

It was the sixth Caliph of the Muslims and the Muslim governor Ubaydallah Ibne Ziyaad and the Muslim army who killed Hussain and his Shias.



1) are you a Christian? So I can explain it to you?
What utter rubbish!
Leave the Christians out, the fact Isa as is mentioned in both bible and Quran that’s enough evidence.........where on Allah swt’s earth is the Mahdi mentioned or hinted in the Quran?? You have to take that theory or idea from unauthentic books instead.

Isa as= a real person backed by Quran and bible a prophet

Mahdi= a made up figure with made up powers no mention from Quran

It doesn’t take a genius to work out the above.......unless your a 12’r.😜

Lol yes kufan hypocrites in their thousands begged for him to come and they would support and fight with him..........the rest is there in history as is the case with Shiites.........they got scared and left him to fight himself with his women and children.👍

Your kind are the killers of ahle baith ra you pledge fake allegiance and then when it comes to fighting you cower back home and lock your doors, typical rafidhi trait, now think for a second no wonder your kind never got to rule an Islamic empire or were EVER in power maybe because you never was on truth and nobody wanted to die for a fake cause like divine Imamate.😉
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: Mythbuster1 on August 05, 2018, 03:20:51 PM
"Jamal and siffeen was done by khawarij and your ancestors the sabaites they loved to create fitna and yes thousands were martyred:

Jamal was done by Aisha along with certain Companions of the Prophet s.a.w. on demand of killers of Usman brought to justice. Safeen was also done for the same reason by certain Companions especially Muawiyah. Since when did the individuals become my ancestors?

Was it? She ra did want justice but for starting a fight? No mate it was the sabaites your ancestors with the khawarij who caused the fitna.

The Saba’ites were the originators of the Shia faith. Generations later, these Saba’ites would branch out into the various Shia sects we know of today: the Druze, Bohras, Nizaris, Zaydis, Jarudis, Sulaymanis, Butris, Ismailis, Kaysaniyyas, Qaddahiyyas, Ghullat, Aga Khanis, Ithna Asharis, Usoolis, Akhbaris, Shaykis, and so on.

So yes your ancestors mate😉👍
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: Mythbuster1 on August 05, 2018, 03:42:40 PM
Don't look for excuses and hide behind them when it comes to Jamal, Safeen and Karbala. Surely Shias can't be behind everything, or were they really that strong and powerful. Blame the actual people who were involved and responsible.

"Now back to the point I made on shia imam Mahdi, he is not gonna come out until there are 313 real Shiite followers, my argument is millions and millions of Muslims have been killed and yet this Shiite Mahdi still won’t come out until he has 313 followers even if Muslims are dying and being killed by kuffar"

It's got nothing to do with 'HE went into hiding and HE won't come out' Its down to the will of Allah and when he (Allah) decides. So put this 'HE' to rest.



"now that’s just stupid it doesn’t even make sense"

Jesus went into occultation, why and what for? What's the purpose and reason? Does this make any sense to you? Is there anything that makes sense to you?

"and your comparing this scared guy to a prophet raised up by Allah swt???"

If he's scared just because he's in occultation then he's not the only one. You have two others in occultation, are they scared too?

"Where’s the logic or aql in that?
Isa as is a known figure in history Shiite Mahdi is only known to shiites"

But the occultation of Jesus is only known to Muslims through the Qur'an, why not others who came before?

Yes Shiites ancestors the sabaite and khawarij were the fitna mongers👍

He is a fake figure created by your kind so how can we leave something that is a lie to Allah swt? Are you feeling alright mate? You cannot provide evidence from Allah swt that He is alive yet you want us to believe in such lies?

Epic fail😂

Isa as isn’t in occultation lol he isn’t hiding anywhere on earth like some fake imam, sense tells me Allah swt has spoken about Isa as and the bible........yet where on earth is the Mahdi mentioned in hiding?? Not even Sunni books will help you here so you rely on reports of so called representatives and liars to create a divine figure in shiism, which you will only find in shiism history and books.😉

Allah swt backs up Isa as but who backs this hidden imam guy( apart from shia)?
You can’t compare a figment of imagination to someone that is real and did live, no contest.

Your standards are abysmal, you believe in some alien divine concepts that are not in Quran, you believe in a divine figure still living that is not mentioned in the Quran but you are quick to point out the similarities of such an unknown figure to a prophet.....who is mentioned in Quran and whom Allah swt speaks of.

I would love to see what they put in your water before you drink it😂😂😂😂😂
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: iceman on August 05, 2018, 03:51:31 PM
So you're telling me that someone else was responsible for Jamal and Safeen but the ones who raised arms against your 4th rightly guided Caliph of the Muslims, the ones who actually fought Jamal and Safeen were innocent? 😀 Some joke you have here.

Someone else caused fitna and the important personalities decided to play along with it, they couldn't see it coming. Are you saying they were blind or not wise enough? What are you trying to say and implement here? Lets sort this out first.

Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: iceman on August 05, 2018, 04:56:05 PM
Was it? She ra did want justice but for starting a fight? No mate it was the sabaites your ancestors with the khawarij who caused the fitna.

The Saba’ites were the originators of the Shia faith. Generations later, these Saba’ites would branch out into the various Shia sects we know of today: the Druze, Bohras, Nizaris, Zaydis, Jarudis, Sulaymanis, Butris, Ismailis, Kaysaniyyas, Qaddahiyyas, Ghullat, Aga Khanis, Ithna Asharis, Usoolis, Akhbaris, Shaykis, and so on.

So yes your ancestors mate😉👍

She ra wanted justice, right. So she decided to gather support and raise arms against the 4th Caliph, right. Some way of getting justice. But justice for who and what? And I thought you said it was the sabaites and the khawarij who caused the fitna, so what was her role and Talah in this?
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: Mythbuster1 on August 05, 2018, 06:48:09 PM
So you're telling me that someone else was responsible for Jamal and Safeen but the ones who raised arms against your 4th rightly guided Caliph of the Muslims, the ones who actually fought Jamal and Safeen were innocent? 😀 Some joke you have here.

Someone else caused fitna and the important personalities decided to play along with it, they couldn't see it coming. Are you saying they were blind or not wise enough? What are you trying to say and implement here? Lets sort this out first.



Don’t need to sort anything out it was a fitna from the past of which lessons have been learnt and it won’t affect my akhira my faith don’t depend on it.......but I know your kind was involved and started the killings (sabaites).😉
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: iceman on August 05, 2018, 07:32:08 PM
Don’t need to sort anything out it was a fitna from the past of which lessons have been learnt and it won’t affect my akhira my faith don’t depend on it.......but I know your kind was involved and started the killings (sabaites).😉

😊 Well you're jumping up and down as though you're life as well as your akhira completely depends on it. My kind were involved and started the killings? I hear that in almost everythin. Well they must be really intelligent and clever then if they can get and play around with fools like you 😀
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: iceman on August 05, 2018, 07:40:17 PM
Don’t need to sort anything out it was a fitna from the past of which lessons have been learnt and it won’t affect my akhira my faith don’t depend on it.......but I know your kind was involved and started the killings (sabaites).😉

The Battle of the Camel, sometimes called the Battle of Jamal or the Battle of Bassorah, took place at Basra, Iraq on 7 November 656. The battle was fought between Ali ibn Abi Talib, who was the cousin and son-in-law of the deceased Prophet of Islam, Muhammad, considered the fourth Rashidun Caliph of the Sunnis and the first Imam of the Shias, and A'isha, the wife of Muhammad, Talhah and Zubayr who led the war against Ali claiming that they want to take revenge on the killers of the third caliph Uthman who was recently killed as a result of rebellion. Marking the second chapter of the First Fitna, the fateful battle ended with victory of Ali.

Where do you see my kind in there? 😊 Aisha, Talah and Zubayr, were they my kind, Sabaites or khawarij? Or did my my kind, sabaites or khawarij made fools out of them and got them to rebel? 😀

You've gone completely blind over this, haven’t you 😊 Close your eyes and continue to deny the open and exact truth.
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: iceman on August 05, 2018, 08:32:44 PM
Was Talah the cousin of Aisha? Did she want Talah to succeed Usman? But when she heard that Ali was sworn in as Caliph that disappointed her and this is where all of a sudden and out of the blue the excuse of bringing the killers of Usman to justice kicked in against Ali? Is this true or may be you'd like to clarify this.
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: iceman on August 05, 2018, 08:40:21 PM
When it comes to the killing of Usman they blame it on a character called Ibne Saba, when it comes to Jamal and Safeen they blame the Khawarij and or the Sabaites, when it comes to the killing of Hussain or firstly the Kufans who betrayed him they blame the Shia. Ask them this that was this character or these individuals so powerful and extraordinary that on each and every occasion they got the better of the Muslims and made fools out of the Sahaba along with Aisha that they couldn’t see it?
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: Mythbuster1 on August 06, 2018, 12:12:48 PM
Was Talah the cousin of Aisha? Did she want Talah to succeed Usman? But when she heard that Ali was sworn in as Caliph that disappointed her and this is where all of a sudden and out of the blue the excuse of bringing the killers of Usman to justice kicked in against Ali? Is this true or may be you'd like to clarify this.

Theories assumptions and best guesses.......your really good at that😉👍
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: Mythbuster1 on August 06, 2018, 12:24:19 PM
When it comes to the killing of Usman they blame it on a character called Ibne Saba, when it comes to Jamal and Safeen they blame the Khawarij and or the Sabaites, when it comes to the killing of Hussain or firstly the Kufans who betrayed him they blame the Shia. Ask them this that was this character or these individuals so powerful and extraordinary that on each and every occasion they got the better of the Muslims and made fools out of the Sahaba along with Aisha that they couldn’t see it?

Lol yeah .......just like Imamah and your  kind from the time of Ibn Saba were being fooled in to believing such nonsense that you couldnt see it.😂😂👍👍

Even now to this day your ancestors  sabaites bamboozled you that much that you still think there is Imamate in the Quran.😂😂😂😂
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: iceman on August 06, 2018, 03:42:51 PM
Lol yeah .......just like Imamah and your  kind from the time of Ibn Saba were being fooled in to believing such nonsense that you couldnt see it.😂😂👍👍

Even now to this day your ancestors  sabaites bamboozled you that much that you still think there is Imamate in the Quran.😂😂😂😂

Nothing positive or constructive, just childish behaviour 😊
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: iceman on August 06, 2018, 03:44:19 PM
Theories assumptions and best guesses.......your really good at that😉👍

Nope, reality and facts and what's black and white, that's all I give.
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: Mythbuster1 on August 07, 2018, 08:26:33 AM
Nothing positive or constructive, just childish behaviour 😊

What’s up? Does the truth burn you?👍👍👍
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: Mythbuster1 on August 07, 2018, 08:29:30 AM
Nope, reality and facts and what's black and white, that's all I give.

Lol no reality you can provide on Imamate in the Quran mate.......been months and nothing clear it’s not even in black and white........it’s an alien idea with no reality or facts😉👍
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: Mythbuster1 on August 07, 2018, 10:01:31 AM
Nothing positive or constructive, just childish behaviour 😊

In your abysmal desperate attempts to portray Imamate in the Quran which you have failed miserably in providing any clear evidence.......it was Ibn Saba the guy who first came up with such nonsense, I ain’t wrong there am I?

Obviously you hearing the truth must burn hence you come out with stupid comments like above to make yourself look good.😂😂😂😂
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: iceman on August 07, 2018, 04:14:13 PM
What’s up? Does the truth burn you?👍👍👍

Burn me? What, the truth? Well I don't really know because all I've got from you is childish behaviour, sarcasm and getting personal oh and plenty of funny faces.
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: Mythbuster1 on August 08, 2018, 02:30:06 PM
Burn me? What, the truth? Well I don't really know because all I've got from you is childish behaviour, sarcasm and getting personal oh and plenty of funny faces.

😊
Title: Re: Are Shias Really Grateful to Imam Hussain (ra) for Saving Islam?
Post by: iceman on August 10, 2018, 07:42:15 AM
😊

😞