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Arguing with the Imam

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Zlatan Ibrahimovic

Re: Arguing with the Imam
« Reply #20 on: April 21, 2017, 05:58:47 PM »
Or an Imam arguing with an Imam?

Quote
و في الصحيح، عن زرارة قال: كنت قاعدا عند أبي جعفر عليه السلام و ليس عنده غير ابنه جعفر عليه السلام فقال: يا زرارة إن أبا ذر و عثمان تنازعا على عهد رسول الله صلى الله عليه و آله و سلم فقال عثمان كل مال من ذهب أو فضة يدار به و يعمل به فيتجر به ففيه الزكاة إذا حال عليه الحول، فقال أبو ذر (أما- خ ل) ما يتجر به أو دير و عمل به فليس فيه زكاة، إنما الزكاة فيه إذا كان ركازا أو كنزا موضوعا، فإذا حال عليه الحول ففيه الزكاة فاختصما في ذلك إلى رسول الله صلى الله عليه و آله و سلم قال فقال: القول ما قاله أبو ذر،
فقال أبو عبد الله عليه السلام لأبيه عليه السلام، ما تريد إلا أن تخرج مثل هذا فيكف الناس أن يعطفوا على فقرائهم و مساكينهم؟
فقال: إليك عني لا أجد منها بدا

[In the Sahih, from Zurarah that he said: I was sitting with abu Ja’far (as) at his place, and there was no one present except his son Ja’far (as), so he said: “O Zurarah, abu Dharr and ‘Uthman disputed during the days of the Prophet (SAWS), ‘Uthman said: All money from gold or silver that the people use and work with in trade, they must pay Zakat for it if one year passes. abu Dharr replied: The money you work with in trade and such then you must not pay Zakat from it, but if it was stored and unused and one year passes then one must pay its Zakat. So they went to the Prophet (SAWS) to solve their dispute and he told them: the saying of abu Dharr is correct.”
abu ‘Abdullah Ja’far (as) said to his father al-Baqir (as): “Why would you bring something like this up? How will the Muslims have kindness and sympathy for the poor and weak among them?”
al-Baqir (as) replied: “Stay away from me, I found it obligatory!”]

I knew someone would bring this up. The matn seems extremely strange to me.

I could agree it's somewhat strange, but I wouldn't say extremely strange up to the point of declaring it unauthentic. Zurarah could simply be not mentioning some details out of respect for Abu Ja'far or Abu Abdillah that put them in a bad light. Or he could not mention some things that put himself in a bad light.

How is it extremely strange?

Imams (as) arguing is extremely strange to me as a Shi'i.
محور المقاومة والممانعة

GreatChineseFall

Re: Arguing with the Imam
« Reply #21 on: April 21, 2017, 06:23:37 PM »
Imams (as) arguing is extremely strange to me as a Shi'i.

Well, there might be a way out. It could be that Zurarah had an argument with one of the Imams and uses the other Imam supporting his view and portraying it as if they had an argument. The downside is accepting that Zurarah. at least didn't view them as infallible, and additionally, that he is a liar who lied upon the Imams.

Another thing is when discussing with shi'i's about sunni texts, that:
(1) whenever something positive is mentioned about for example Abu Bakr and Umar, it is obviously fabricated as it supports their view
(2) whenever something negative is reported, it is obviously true as why would they fabricate something like that?
(3) whenever something positive is reported about Ali, it is obviously true
(4) whenever something negative is reported about him, it is obviously as they were trying to fabricate lies against him

Likewise, you must conclude the same about this narration, what benefit is there in fabricating this unless it is something like above mentioned?

Zlatan Ibrahimovic

Re: Arguing with the Imam
« Reply #22 on: April 21, 2017, 06:34:41 PM »
Imams (as) arguing is extremely strange to me as a Shi'i.

Well, there might be a way out. It could be that Zurarah had an argument with one of the Imams and uses the other Imam supporting his view and portraying it as if they had an argument. The downside is accepting that Zurarah. at least didn't view them as infallible, and additionally, that he is a liar who lied upon the Imams.

Another thing is when discussing with shi'i's about sunni texts, that:
(1) whenever something positive is mentioned about for example Abu Bakr and Umar, it is obviously fabricated as it supports their view
(2) whenever something negative is reported, it is obviously true as why would they fabricate something like that?
(3) whenever something positive is reported about Ali, it is obviously true
(4) whenever something negative is reported about him, it is obviously as they were trying to fabricate lies against him

Likewise, you must conclude the same about this narration, what benefit is there in fabricating this unless it is something like above mentioned?

Because infallibility is from the dharooriyat of the madhab. There is no doubt about it in our minds.

It is like the issue of sahw an-nabi, although it came from sahih chains many ulama rejected it because they said it contradicts infallibility.

محور المقاومة والممانعة

GreatChineseFall

Re: Arguing with the Imam
« Reply #23 on: April 21, 2017, 08:56:34 PM »
Because infallibility is from the dharooriyat of the madhab. There is no doubt about it in our minds.

It is like the issue of sahw an-nabi, although it came from sahih chains many ulama rejected it because they said it contradicts infallibility.

But the dharooriyat are determined from sahih narrations, so how can the sahih-ness of a narration be determined by checking the dharooriyat?

Also, are you referring to the all the rijs kind of evidences or the isma ones? I have never heard a convincing case for rijs and as far as isma is concerned, they can still be considered protected even if they argue. It's just not the kind of infallibility what is commonly believed nowadays.

By the way, shi'i scholars have found a way of a accepting it and said that it was due to taqiyyah and I gave you another option of accepting the narration without accepting fallibility.

Zlatan Ibrahimovic

Re: Arguing with the Imam
« Reply #24 on: April 21, 2017, 09:02:48 PM »
Because infallibility is from the dharooriyat of the madhab. There is no doubt about it in our minds.

It is like the issue of sahw an-nabi, although it came from sahih chains many ulama rejected it because they said it contradicts infallibility.

But the dharooriyat are determined from sahih narrations, so how can the sahih-ness of a narration be determined by checking the dharooriyat?

Also, are you referring to the all the rijs kind of evidences or the isma ones? I have never heard a convincing case for rijs and as far as isma is concerned, they can still be considered protected even if they argue. It's just not the kind of infallibility what is commonly believed nowadays.

By the way, shi'i scholars have found a way of a accepting it and said that it was due to taqiyyah and I gave you another option of accepting the narration without accepting fallibility.

Yes, and one of the dharooriyat is isma.

As for rijs, as you probably know, we Shi'a believe Ayat Al-Tathir was revealed for the Ahlulbayt. And it mentions rijs.

What is the other option?
محور المقاومة والممانعة

Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: Arguing with the Imam
« Reply #25 on: April 21, 2017, 09:09:08 PM »
Because infallibility is from the dharooriyat of the madhab. There is no doubt about it in our minds.

It is like the issue of sahw an-nabi, although it came from sahih chains many ulama rejected it because they said it contradicts infallibility.

But the dharooriyat are determined from sahih narrations, so how can the sahih-ness of a narration be determined by checking the dharooriyat?

Also, are you referring to the all the rijs kind of evidences or the isma ones? I have never heard a convincing case for rijs and as far as isma is concerned, they can still be considered protected even if they argue. It's just not the kind of infallibility what is commonly believed nowadays.

By the way, shi'i scholars have found a way of a accepting it and said that it was due to taqiyyah and I gave you another option of accepting the narration without accepting fallibility.

Yes, and one of the dharooriyat is isma.

As for rijs, as you probably know, we Shi'a believe Ayat Al-Tathir was revealed for the Ahlulbayt. And it mentions rijs.

What is the other option?

What is Ar-rijs as per Imams?  Sins? If not then it can't be a proof for infallibility.

GreatChineseFall

Re: Arguing with the Imam
« Reply #26 on: April 21, 2017, 09:16:41 PM »
Yes, and one of the dharooriyat is isma.

I don't understand, I asked an open question, what do you mean "yes"?

But the dharooriyat are determined from sahih narrations, so how can the sahih-ness of a narration be determined by checking the dharooriyat?

As for rijs, as you probably know, we Shi'a believe Ayat Al-Tathir was revealed for the Ahlulbayt. And it mentions rijs.

I know, but I mean there has never been a convincing case for rijs meaning any major sin, minor sin and mistake

What is the other option?

Well, there might be a way out. It could be that Zurarah had an argument with one of the Imams and uses the other Imam supporting his view and portraying it as if they had an argument. The downside is accepting that Zurarah. at least didn't view them as infallible, and additionally, that he is a liar who lied upon the Imams.

It would also explain the lack of details from Zurarah's part

 

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