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Before Prophethood

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Ijtaba

Before Prophethood
« on: November 09, 2015, 12:19:03 AM »
As-salaam o Alaikum Brothers and Sisters.

I have a question about religion which Hadhrat Abdul Muttalib (a.s) and his children followed according to authentic reports of Ahlul Sunnah. I have read in Sahih Bukhari that Hadhrat Abu Talib (a.s) died on the religion of Hadhrat Abdul Muttalib (a.s). Also I heard that Parents of Prophet Mohammed (s.a.w.w) would not be saved in Akhirah due to their religion not been Islam.

So my second question is before Prophethood given to Hadhrat Mohammed (s.a.w.w) which religion did he follow for 40 years of his (s.a.w.w) life? As he was raised in his grandfather and uncle's house so it is more likely he (s.a.w.w) was following for 40 years of his life religion of his forefathers.

Please if possible provide me with authentic hadith/reports etc.

I am asking this question because in our religious gatherings whenever someone asks that Ahlul Sunnah considers Hadhrat Abu Talib (a.s) died a disbeliever the most frequent reply I get to hear is that Prophet Mohammed (s.a.w.w) was raised in Hadhrat Abu Talib's (a.s) home so it is natural for Prophet Mohammed (s.a.w.w) to follow his Parents, Uncle and Grandfather's religion before receiving Prophethood which was Religion of Prophet Ibrahim (a.s)

Optimus Prime

Re: Before Prophethood
« Reply #1 on: November 09, 2015, 02:00:26 AM »
W/S respected brother.

1) Our authentic reports confirm that only Abu Talib and Abu Lahab who're the descendants of Abdul Muttalib are in Janaham. The rest are assumed to have passed away prior to the Prophethood. Abdul Muttalib is also confirmed to be in Janaham because Abu Labah once asked the Prophet (SAW) "where is my father", and the Prophet (SAW) he is with his people. Abu Lahab initially took this response to mean according to his nephew's religion his father is in Paradise until other members of Quraish encouraged Abu Lahab to be more direct with his question, and then he got the affirmation that his father died upon the religion of polytheism. He then withdrew his protection from the Prophet (SAW) which, lead him to exile himself from Makkah, and this is when he turned his attentions to the people of Taif.

2) The authentic reports which, suggest that his (SAW) parents are not going to make it to paradise have interpreted differently by many classical and contemporary scholars. So, it's not clear-cut.

Unfortunately, I don't have a reference for neither answer, but I'm sure someone will fill you in, Insh'Allah. :)
« Last Edit: November 09, 2015, 02:03:36 AM by Imam Ali »

Ibn Yahya

Re: Before Prophethood
« Reply #2 on: November 09, 2015, 02:03:46 AM »
Let's ask ourselves what was the Millah of 'Abd al-Muttalib? 'Abd al-Muttalib was a Mushrik, this is just the reality of the matter akhi. So if he was on his Millah then logically he also was a Mushrik. Same goes for the parents, they committed Shirk, no one was able to guide them, I'm not too knowledgeable on their fate so I won't comment any further.

I am not sure, I don't think he used to call on idols but he was part of that tradition. I don't know any specific narrations on this but I can link you to a classical Sunni biography of the Prophet if you want.

Look the point of the Prophet was to bring people back to the path of Ibrahim, if he was already following it there would be no need for him. Also you seem to be forgetting that everyone in the Quraysh was descended directly from Ibrahim so there's no reason why they wouldn't be on his path either using that logic.

Furkan

Re: Before Prophethood
« Reply #3 on: November 09, 2015, 02:21:43 AM »
I recommend the brothers to be respectfull in the matter of the parents of rasulullah (saw) in case you believe they aren't in paradise.
Before Qazî Mihemed, President of the first kurdish Republic Mahabad was hanged the iranian judge asked:

“last words?”

Qazî: “I thank Allah: even in death he put my shoes above your heads”

Farid

Re: Before Prophethood
« Reply #4 on: November 09, 2015, 02:56:35 AM »
@ Ijtaba:

As brother Ebn Hussein always says, we are a people that follow evidence. We say that the father of Abu Bakr died a Muslim because of evidence. We also say that the father of Omar died a KAFFIR because of evidence.

The same applies to the Prophet peace be upon him. Emotions have no room in our judgement.

Hani

Re: Before Prophethood
« Reply #5 on: November 09, 2015, 03:29:26 AM »
Salam,

Here's my answer: The Prophet (saw) living with a Mushrik uncle is no different than Ibrahim (as) living with a Mushrik father in a Mushrik town as we read in the Qur'an. Did the Shirk of Ibrahim's (as) father cause his son to be Mushrik? The answer is No since Ibrahim (as) was from those who reflect and use their intellect.

As for the people living before the Prophet (saw) announced Islam, they lived in a time called al-Fatrah "The period" which is a period of cessation of prophet-hood. If these people learned about the correct guidance and rejected it then they will abide in the fire, if it has not reached them clearly or has not reached them at all then they will not be punished in the hell-fire.

Allah has explicitly stated in his book: {Whosoever is guided, is only guided to his own gain, and whosoever goes astray, it is only to his own loss; no soul laden bears the load of another. We never chastise, until We send forth a Messenger.} [17:15]

Also the Sunnah confirms this concept when it gives the example of four people who will never be punished:  [The Prophet (saw) said: four who will present their case on the Day of Resurrection: a deaf man who never heard anything, an insane man, a very old and senile man, and a man who died during the Fatrah. As for the deaf man, he will say, "O Lord, Islam came but I never heard anything.'' As for the insane man, he will say, "O Lord, Islam came and the young boys were throwing camel dung at me.'' As for the senile man, he will say, "O Lord, Islam came and I did not understand anything.'' As for the one who died during the Fatrah, he will say, "O Lord, no Messenger from You came to me.'' Allah will accept their pledge of obedience to Him, then He will send word to them that they should enter the Fire. By the One in Whose Hand is the soul of Muhammad, if they enter it, it will be cool and safe for them.]

And this isn't limited to four but it is there to show a glimpse of the mercy of God on that day and that no injustice will be done to any human who has a special circumstance and it shows that only the arrogant and stubborn disbelievers will abide therein. I add, although these folks will not be among the believers in heaven, yet they will be in a comfortable pleasant place, this shows the miraculous power of God as He orders them to enter hell yet when they enter , it shall appear to them very differently than it appears to the disbelievers, no heat shall harm them and no creature shall terrorize them or scare them, they will feel safe and peaceful.

As for the Prophet's (saw) uncles who rejected his message, although one of them treated him well and aided him at times, yet Allah wishes to show that fulfilling the right of the creatures while ignoring the right of the creator is not a means of salvation.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Ijtaba

Re: Before Prophethood
« Reply #6 on: November 09, 2015, 10:35:34 PM »
Thank you brothers for your replies.

Reading your posts answered my first question. Following authentic reports confirm that Nabi Mohammed's (s.a.w.w) Grandfather, Parents and Uncles except Hadhrat Hamza (a.s) & Hadhrat Abbas (a.s) were all mushriks.

But second question is still remaining. Was Prophet Mohammed (s.a.w.w) also mushrik for 40 years before receiving his Prophethood? As he (s.a.w.w) was born in mushrik household so it is very likely for Prophet to follow traditions of his family and forefathers. For eg, the day he was born or when he was some months old he might have been taken to temple or some idol in Kaaba and some polytheist ritual being performed. When he (s.a.w.w) was a kid it is likely for him to go to temples or idols to worship which his family was worshipping like Hadhrat Ibrahim (a.s) use to go to temples but his intellect seem to dismiss idol being able to fulfill human wishes as his reason said a thing which cannot see, hear or speak, worst a thing which isn't able to harm nor benefit itself then how could it harm or benefit humans?

So is there any such encounter of our Prophet (s.a.w.w) with his family elders before Prophethood? That is to say a religious pagan festival coming which all the family members of Bani Hashim celebrate but Prophet (s.a.w.w) feeling discomfort and asking elders of Bani Hashim to excuse him for such gatherings in which worship of idols or offering to idols are being made and some disputes taking place with elders when elders say to him that he must follow the traditions of his forefathers.

Prophet (s.a.w.w) eating offering sacrificed in the names of other gods whenever there would be Bani Hashim gathering or any Quraysh gatherings. When Prophet (s.a.w.w) made Du'a he would had certainly had gods whom his grandparents, parents and uncles & aunts used to invoke. He (s.a.w.w) certainly was loved by his Uncles & Aunts so avoiding or breaking any pagan traditions of Bani Hashim would had certainly caused some dispute and anger in the elders of Bani Hashim as happened after Prophethood.

Is there any report and narration which would indicate thus? That is to say when Prophet (s.a.w.w) declared his Prophethood did Abu Lahab or Abu Jahl or any Elder of Bani Hashim or Quraysh say that we knew this was coming as when he (s.a.w.w) was a rebel. He wasn't an obedient nephew as he avoided our religious gatherings, avoided eating offerings which we sacrificed to our idols, used to miss visitation to temples or Kaaba during religious days to perform worshipping of our gods.

Except for one narration in Sahih Bukhari which I can't word to word. The narration informs us that when the Prophet (s.a.w.w) for the first time in his life heard music and was attracted to it but suddenly fainted. After the incident of fainting Prophet (s.a.w.w) use to avoid listening to the music.

I think Seerah or Hadith literature is silent on this part of Prophet life - Religion of Mohammed (s.a.w.w) before receiving Prophethood. How could Prophet (s.a.w.w) avoid polytheism when he was living surrounded by Mushriks 24/7 whether at home or outside.

I heard that in Hijaz there was a group who was Hanaffiya (Monotheists). Did Prophet (s.a.w.w) join that group or have any interaction with them before receiving his Prophethood? If yes what was the reaction of Bani Hashim at that time.. meaning didn't this make them angry that by doing so he (s.a.w.w) has destroyed our traditions and customs and is likely to cause divisions as youths of Bani Hashim might be encouraged and follow his act.

The truth is all of these things did happen but after Hadhrat Mohammad (s.a.w.w) receiving Prophethood i.e. Elder of Bani Hashim Abu Lahab & Elders of Quraysh getting angry, divisions happening as youths followed the Prophet (s.a.w.w) and boycotting of Prophet (s.a.w.w) by the Quraysh for not worshipping idols.

It is almost impossible for one man to stay monotheist secretly from infant to adult life in society of Polytheists without anyone getting hint of his monotheistic inclinations. It is widely known that polytheists are very strict and hard on people who try to destroy or abuse their gods, sacred animals, religion, customs or traditions.

Ijtaba

Re: Before Prophethood
« Reply #7 on: November 09, 2015, 11:28:20 PM »
Let's ask ourselves what was the Millah of 'Abd al-Muttalib? 'Abd al-Muttalib was a Mushrik, this is just the reality of the matter akhi. So if he was on his Millah then logically he also was a Mushrik. Same goes for the parents, they committed Shirk, no one was able to guide them, I'm not too knowledgeable on their fate so I won't comment any further.

I am not sure, I don't think he used to call on idols but he was part of that tradition. I don't know any specific narrations on this but I can link you to a classical Sunni biography of the Prophet if you want.

Look the point of the Prophet was to bring people back to the path of Ibrahim, if he was already following it there would be no need for him. Also you seem to be forgetting that everyone in the Quraysh was descended directly from Ibrahim so there's no reason why they wouldn't be on his path either using that logic.

Brother Ibn Yahya correct me if I am wrong. Are you saying that Prophet was Mushrik?

One thing came into my mind is that Nabi Ibrahim (a.s) and Nabi Ismail (a.s) used to offer Salah. And I guess there is no authentic evidence in Ahlul Sunnah Seerah books or Hadith literature that before receiving Nubawah Prophet (s.a.w.w) was offering Salah because Prophet (s.a.w.w) was given Salah on the night of Miraj which was originally 50 times reduced to 5 times. This proves that Prophet Muhammad (s.a.w.w) wasn't following Religion of Nabi Ibrahim (a.s) before receiving Prophethood. This leaves us no choice but to accept that Prophet (s.a.w.w) was following religion of his forefathers for 40 years and that is he was also mushrik like his forefathers but ALLAH (SWT) chose him and guided him and made him follow Millah of Ibrahim (a.s).

I find it hard to accept that Prophet (s.a.w.w) would had been mushrik for 40 years before receiving Prophethood.  Because I think even Ahlul Sunnah believe that every Prophet is protected from Major Sins if not Minor Sins. And Shirk is the biggest of Major Sin.

Hani

Re: Before Prophethood
« Reply #8 on: November 10, 2015, 01:26:54 AM »
Salam,

No he (saw) was not a polytheist as that would be a great oppression, Allah says about the guided prophets who shall lead mankind: {[Allah] said, My covenant does not include the oppressors} and Allah says: {Verily! Joining others in worship with Allah is a great oppression indeed.}

In this case, if Muhammad ibn `Abdillah (saw) was a man who worshiped idols just like many from his tribe, Allah would not specifically choose him over others as he would be an oppressor nor would he offer him this high station.

Aside from this, we knew people who were monotheists on the path of Ibrahim (as) even before the advent of Islam, they never bowed to idols or prayed to a creature, such as Zayd bin `Amro, Abu Bakr al-Siddiq, Waraqah ibn Nawfal and Umayyah ibn abi al-Salt. Why then would our Prophet (saw) not be of these people? Was he less intelligent? Allah would have surely then chosen other than him for this mission.

It was reported that he used to seek the cave before his prophet-hood and worship the creator and he would stay there contemplate God's creations for days.

عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Furkan

Re: Before Prophethood
« Reply #9 on: November 10, 2015, 02:22:29 AM »
I found the following document:

http://www.marifah.net/articles/prophetsparentssaved-jalaluddinalsuyuti

Conclusion at the end:

[Conclusion]
The majority of the scholars have agreed to the preceding, namely that the Prophet’s
parents are in Paradise, without need for them to consider the two Hadīths of Muslim
abrogated. However, as al-Suhaylī has pointed out, it is not appropriate for Muslims to
say such a thing as, “The Prophet’s parents are in the fire,” as he himself said, “Do not
annoy the living by insulting the dead,” and Allāh said, “Those who annoy Allāh and
the Prophet, Allāh curses them in this life and in the hereafter” (33:57).
Al-Qādī Abū Bakr ibn al-`Arabī the Mālikī scholar was asked about the man who did say
such a statement, and he replied, “Such a man is cursed.”
Finally, a portion of the scholars have gone to the position of withholding their opinion
on the subject, and Allāh knows best.
Before Qazî Mihemed, President of the first kurdish Republic Mahabad was hanged the iranian judge asked:

“last words?”

Qazî: “I thank Allah: even in death he put my shoes above your heads”

Ibn Yahya

Re: Before Prophethood
« Reply #10 on: November 10, 2015, 02:54:39 AM »
Salam,

No he (saw) was not a polytheist as that would be a great oppression, Allah says about the guided prophets who shall lead mankind: {[Allah] said, My covenant does not include the oppressors} and Allah says: {Verily! Joining others in worship with Allah is a great oppression indeed.}

In this case, if Muhammad ibn `Abdillah (saw) was a man who worshiped idols just like many from his tribe, Allah would not specifically choose him over others as he would be an oppressor nor would he offer him this high station.
Yeah Akhi I was confused on that part. I knew he didn't pray to idols but I thought he was still part of that tradition even though he didn't follow it.

muslim720

"Our coward ran from those in authority" - Iceman (admitting the truth regarding his 12th Imam)

Hani

Re: Before Prophethood
« Reply #12 on: November 10, 2015, 09:48:56 PM »
Salam,

No he (saw) was not a polytheist as that would be a great oppression, Allah says about the guided prophets who shall lead mankind: {[Allah] said, My covenant does not include the oppressors} and Allah says: {Verily! Joining others in worship with Allah is a great oppression indeed.}

In this case, if Muhammad ibn `Abdillah (saw) was a man who worshiped idols just like many from his tribe, Allah would not specifically choose him over others as he would be an oppressor nor would he offer him this high station.
Yeah Akhi I was confused on that part. I knew he didn't pray to idols but I thought he was still part of that tradition even though he didn't follow it.

His example would be exactly that of Ibrahim (as), he was a monotheist surrounded by pagan rituals.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Ijtaba

Re: Before Prophethood
« Reply #13 on: November 11, 2015, 01:04:05 AM »
Salam,

No he (saw) was not a polytheist as that would be a great oppression, Allah says about the guided prophets who shall lead mankind: {[Allah] said, My covenant does not include the oppressors} and Allah says: {Verily! Joining others in worship with Allah is a great oppression indeed.}

In this case, if Muhammad ibn `Abdillah (saw) was a man who worshiped idols just like many from his tribe, Allah would not specifically choose him over others as he would be an oppressor nor would he offer him this high station.

Aside from this, we knew people who were monotheists on the path of Ibrahim (as) even before the advent of Islam, they never bowed to idols or prayed to a creature, such as Zayd bin `Amro, Abu Bakr al-Siddiq, Waraqah ibn Nawfal and Umayyah ibn abi al-Salt. Why then would our Prophet (saw) not be of these people? Was he less intelligent? Allah would have surely then chosen other than him for this mission.

It was reported that he used to seek the cave before his prophet-hood and worship the creator and he would stay there contemplate God's creations for days.

Brother are there any authentic reports concerning Zayd bin Amro, Hadhrat Abu Bakr (r.a),  Ummayah bin abi Salt saying that they were monotheists before coming of Islam?  About Waraqah ibn Nawafil I heard that he was a Christian.

And in cave how did Prophet (s.a.w.w) worship GOD as the method of worship like Salah was not known to him neither verses of Books of GOD like Taurat, Injeel or Zabur?

How could Prophet (s.a.w.w) follow path of Ibrahim (a.s) when his Parents, Uncles, Grandfathers, Forefathers were all mushriks. Who would have told him about path of Ibrahim (a.s) before receiving Revelation?

If Prophet (s.a.w.w) was monotheist before receiving Revelations then why does ALLAH (SWT) then say in Al-Quran 93:7 Wa wa Jadaka Dhalla fa Hada (And HE found you in error and Guided you)?

Brother you also said, "His example would be exactly that of Ibrahim (as), he was a monotheist surrounded by pagan rituals."

But didn't Prophet Ibrahim (a.s) go to temple where there were idols before receiving Guidance from GOD. There are also instances in Al-Quran where Prophet Ibrahim (a.s) considers Star as Rab (Lord) but when it sets/disappear then he (a.s) is disappointed. Then he considers Moon to be Rab (Lord) but when Moon also sets/disappears he becames disappointed. Lastly he (a.s) considers Sun to be Rab (Lord) as it is greatest but when Sun sets he (a.s) becomes disappointed. If he was monotheist then why did he (a.s) think Star, Moon and Sun to be Rab (Lord)?
« Last Edit: November 11, 2015, 01:07:08 AM by Ijtaba »

Ijtaba

Re: Before Prophethood
« Reply #14 on: November 11, 2015, 01:31:33 AM »
Also in Al-Quran Surah A'raaf verses 85-91 it is mentioned that arrogant chiefs said to Prophet Shuaib (a.s) and his followers to return to their religion and Prophet Shuaib (a.s) replies even if he and his followers dislikes their religion they expect him and his followers to return to their religion?

I don't know whether people of Madyan were mushriks or not but they definitely followed religion other than Islam. So these verses show that Prophet Shuaib (a.s) also followed religion other than Islam like people of Madyan before receiving Guidance.

Ijtaba

Re: Before Prophethood
« Reply #15 on: November 11, 2015, 03:58:25 PM »
I was looking on the internet for information on people listed by Brother Hani as being monotheists during the pre-revelation age. I got some interesting information regarding Zayd bin `Amro.

I am pasting below two hadiths which I found in Sahih Bukhari on Zayd bin `Amro. I think its about one incident but there is slight variation in both hadith regarding that incident.

First Hadith:

Sahih Bukhari
Volume 7, Book 67, Number 407:
Narrated 'Abdullah:

Allah's Apostle said that he met Zaid bin 'Amr Nufail at a place near Baldah and this had happened before Allah's Apostle received the Divine Inspiration. Allah's Apostle presented a dish of meat (that had been offered to him by the pagans) to Zaid bin 'Amr, but Zaid refused to eat of it and then said (to the pagans), "I do not eat of what you slaughter on your stonealtars (Ansabs) nor do I eat except that on which Allah's Name has been mentioned on slaughtering."


Second Hadith:

Sahih Bukhari
Volume 5, Book 58, Number 169 :
Narrated by 'Abdullah bin 'Umar:

The Prophet met Zaid bin 'Amr bin Nufail in the bottom of (the valley of) Baldah before any Divine Inspiration came to the Prophet. A meal was presented to the Prophet but he refused to eat from it. (Then it was presented to Zaid) who said, "I do not eat anything which you slaughter in the name of your stone idols. I eat none but those things on which Allah's Name has been mentioned at the time of slaughtering." Zaid bin 'Amr used to criticize the way Quraish used to slaughter their animals, and used to say, "Allah has created the sheep and He has sent the water for it from the sky, and He has grown the grass for it from the earth; yet you slaughter it in other than the Name of Allah. He used to say so, for he rejected that practice and considered it as something abominable. Narrated Ibn 'Umar: Zaid bin 'Amr bin Nufail went to Sham, inquiring about a true religion to follow. He met a Jewish religious scholar and asked him about their religion. He said, "I intend to embrace your religion, so tell me some thing about it." The Jew said, "You will not embrace our religion unless you receive your share of Allah's Anger." Zaid said, "'I do not run except from Allah's Anger, and I will never bear a bit of it if I have the power to avoid it. Can you tell me of some other religion?" He said, "I do not know any other religion except the Hanif." Zaid enquired, "What is Hanif?" He said, "Hanif is the religion of (the prophet) Abraham who was neither a Jew nor a Christian, and he used to worship None but Allah (Alone)" Then Zaid went out and met a Christian religious scholar and told him the same as before. The Christian said, "You will not embrace our religion unless you get a share of Allah's Curse." Zaid replied, "I do not run except from Allah's Curse, and I will never bear any of Allah's Curse and His Anger if I have the power to avoid them. Will you tell me of some other religion?" He replied, "I do not know any other religion except Hanif." Zaid enquired, "What is Hanif?" He replied, Hanif is the religion of (the prophet) Abraham who was neither a Jew nor a Christian and he used to worship None but Allah (Alone)" When Zaid heard their Statement about (the religion of) Abraham, he left that place, and when he came out, he raised both his hands and said, "O Allah! I make You my Witness that I am on the religion of Abraham." Narrated Asma bint Abi Bakr: I saw Zaid bin Amr bin Nufail standing with his back against the Ka'ba and saying, "O people of Quraish! By Allah, none amongst you is on the religion of Abraham except me." He used to preserve the lives of little girls: If somebody wanted to kill his daughter he would say to him, "Do not kill her for I will feed her on your behalf." So he would take her, and when she grew up nicely, he would say to her father, "Now if you want her, I will give her to you, and if you wish, I will feed her on your behalf."


By these hadiths we get to know 2 things. First the possibility of Prophet (s.a.w.w) eating of pagan meat as in the first ahadith he (s.a.w.w) offered that meat to Zayd bin 'Amro. Why would Prophet (s.a.w.w) offer something which himself disliked or considered haraam to another person to eat? Secondly there is no indication of Prophet (s.a.w.w) disliking the pagan meat as there is clear indication of Zayd bin 'Amro disliking the pagan meat.

In Second ahadith we get more information as to where the concept of Hanif (Monotheist) started from. This concept was given by Syrian Jew and Christian religious scholars to Zayd bin 'Amro. And from them Zayd bin 'Amro introduced the Concept of Hanif in Makkah. Clearly by the words of Zayd bin 'Amro it is known that Prophet (s.a.w.w) was not Hanif because Zayd bin 'Amro says to Quraysh that he alone is on the Religion of Ibrahim (a.s)

I guess that it is now more likely that Prophet Mohammed (s.a.w.w) was on the Religion of his (s.a.w.w) forefathers and not on the Religion of Ibrahim (a.s) before receiving Revelation.

Can anyone share more information on this topic by giving authentic hadiths.

Hani

Re: Before Prophethood
« Reply #16 on: November 12, 2015, 01:54:19 AM »
Concerning Zayd, Waraqah, Abu Bakr and any other monotheist: I have not researched it thoroughly to know how many reports there are and if they are authentic (Not that authenticity matters in such minor matters), it is just popular knowledge. If you go to the second chapter of my book on Abu Bakr you will find some related material to how things were before prophet-hood:
http://twelvershia.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/The-pure-confirmation-of-al-Siddiq%E2%80%99s-virtues.pdf

As for the Christian, being one of them does not make you a polytheist unless you believe in the trinity. I know a few monotheist Christians today and I imagine there were more back in those days.

As for them not worshiping idols, this doesn't mean that they never worshiped them at any point, or that they were born infallible and rightly guided from the start, it could be for instance that Umayyah worshiped idols as a kid or accompanied his parents to the temple but was not convinced so he left paganism later on in his life.

As for Salat being revealed later, what we Muslims know as "prayer" is not the only form of worship, pondering upon the creator's might and splendor is worship in and of itself.

You said: "Didn't Ibrahim (as) worship stars, planets etc... before God guided him?" Here there's two opinions:

A- He was using that as an argument against his people to prove that God is not a creation no matter how great the creation was. In this case, he was never a pagan and so there is no problem.

B- He was brought up surrounded by pagans since childhood, when he grew mature he observed and contemplated until he reached the conclusion that God is one. In this case, if one considers Ibrahim (as) to have been a polytheist at one point in his life, then it isn't an issue for them to think the same concerning our Prophet (saw).

You asked: "Who would have told him about path of Ibrahim (a.s) before receiving Revelation?" I say: As he was growing up, un-convinced by his people's religion, he may have asked around and learned about the path of Ibrahim (as). He could have also been practicing the path of Ibrahim (as) before even knowing that it was the path of Ibrahim (as).
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Ijtaba

Re: Before Prophethood
« Reply #17 on: November 12, 2015, 03:04:12 AM »
Thanks Hani for your views.

There is one thing which I want to make clear is that I am no scholar neither do I believe that I have perfect knowledge that I can say something with certainity. I too am learning and I do believe that my beliefs and views which I hold now maybe wrong. At present I believe in 12 Infallible Imams including Hidden Mehdi (a.s). But it isn't necessary that I would stick with this belief. If at some point in my life I get convinced with Ahlul Sunnah concept of Khilafah and find faults in the Shia concept of Imamate then I would readily accept Ahlul Sunnah concept of Khilafah and reject Shia concept of Imamah. My main purpose over here is to learn about Ahlul Sunnah.

Now coming back to the topic I know this isn't a major issue but there is only one confusion. One can believe in the possibility of Prophets being mushrik but this contradicts with Sunni-Shia popular belief that Prophets are protected from major sins such as Shirk.

Shias have tried to solve this contradiction by saying that Prophet's Parents, Grandparents and Forefathers were all Muslims who were following Path of Ibrahim (a.s) and Ismail (a.s). As for Nabi Ibrahim (a.s) Parents being Muslims they refer to Du'a of Ibrahim (a.s) in Al-Quran where he prays for his parents together with believers.

Some Sunnis like Shias also hold this view. They believe that Parents of all Prophets (a.s) were Muslims.




Hani

Re: Before Prophethood
« Reply #18 on: November 12, 2015, 05:08:56 AM »
Except that the Qur'an clearly states that Ibrahim's (as) father was a polytheist and authentic Shia narrations back this up.

Qur'an

{And when Abraham said to his father Azar, 'Takest thou idols for gods? I see thee, and thy people, in manifest error.}

Authentic Shia narration (al-Kafi):

[Narrated Ali ibn Ibrahim from his father, from ibn Abu Umeyr from Hisham ibn Salim from Abu Ayub al-Hazzari from Abu Abdullah (alaihi salam), which said: "Azar father of Ibrahim (alaihi salam) was an astrologer for Namrud etc... One day, his brothers were making idols so Ibrahim (as) crafted a wooden idol none of them have ever seen before, so Azar told his mother: "We may receive blessings due to this son of yours." But suddenly Ibrahim (as) grabbed the tool and broke the idol etc...]

Al-Shareef al-Murtada the top Shia theologian, said in Tanzeeh-ul-Anbiya' that Azar was a hypocrite who fooled his own son Ibrahim (as) etc...

As for the Prophet (saw) being misguided because his parents were misguided, this is incorrect, for Allah's guidance can reach anyone even if he was alone on a stranded island.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2015, 05:48:26 AM by Hani »
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Ijtaba

Re: Before Prophethood
« Reply #19 on: November 12, 2015, 07:09:53 PM »
Except that the Qur'an clearly states that Ibrahim's (as) father was a polytheist and authentic Shia narrations back this up.

Qur'an

{And when Abraham said to his father Azar, 'Takest thou idols for gods? I see thee, and thy people, in manifest error.}

Authentic Shia narration (al-Kafi):

[Narrated Ali ibn Ibrahim from his father, from ibn Abu Umeyr from Hisham ibn Salim from Abu Ayub al-Hazzari from Abu Abdullah (alaihi salam), which said: "Azar father of Ibrahim (alaihi salam) was an astrologer for Namrud etc... One day, his brothers were making idols so Ibrahim (as) crafted a wooden idol none of them have ever seen before, so Azar told his mother: "We may receive blessings due to this son of yours." But suddenly Ibrahim (as) grabbed the tool and broke the idol etc...]

Al-Shareef al-Murtada the top Shia theologian, said in Tanzeeh-ul-Anbiya' that Azar was a hypocrite who fooled his own son Ibrahim (as) etc...

True but what would you say for the following verse of Al-Quran?

40. “O my Lord! Make me one who performs As-Salat (Iqamat-as-Salat), and (also) from my offspring, our Lord! And accept my invocation.
41. “Our Lord! Forgive me and my parents, and (all) the believers on the Day when the reckoning will be established.”

Al- Quran (Surah Ibrahim: 40-41)

Why would Nabi Ibrahim (a.s) pray for his idolatrous parents?

As for the Prophet (saw) being misguided because his parents were misguided, this is incorrect, for Allah's guidance can reach anyone even if he was alone on a stranded island.

Correct and ALLAH (SWT) can hide a human being for more 3000 years [e.g Shia Imam Mehdi (a.s) hidden for more than 1400 years) like HE (SWT) has hidden Angels and Jinns from the eyes of Human Beings.

The thing is Ahlul Sunnah does not deny ALLAH (SWT) Power to do so but they ask Shias to give evidence of a existence of their Imam Mehdi (a.s) and evidence of his hiding and still being alive until this day. Similarly I do not deny ALLAH (SWT) Guidance reaching alone person on a stranded island but I need evidence for Prophet Mohammed (s.a.w.w) of following the path of Ibrahim (a.s) before receiving Nabuwah.

As searching the person named by you in your previous post I came across Sahih Hadith narrated by Hadhrat Abdullah ibn Umar (r.a) and Hadhrat Asma bint Abi Bakr both of whom are from Sahabis and children of Sheikhan (r.a) confirming the fact the concept of Hanif was not known in Makkah and the only person to introduce in Makkah and the only person to claim to be following the Path of Ibrahim (a.s) as Monotheist in Makkah without anyone disagreeing with his claim was Zayd bin 'Amro.

 

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