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Did Ayesha do Matam for Abu Bakar too..?

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Shia not Rafidi

Did Ayesha do Matam for Abu Bakar too..?
« on: May 26, 2019, 06:29:48 PM »
السلام علیکم..
toda3i faced with a shia about matam and he quoted the hadith when Ayesha ra did matam for Prophet PBUH (beating her face), in the same hadith she says that was because of her ignorance and lil age (that she didn't know how to act) but then he quoted another narration whuch says she did Matam for Abu Bakar ra too along with other women..
here's the reference.

تاریخ طبری، ج 3، ص 423 

حَدَّثَنِي يُونُسُ، قَالَ: أَخْبَرَنَا ابْنُ وَهْبٍ، قَالَ: أَخْبَرَنَا يُونُسُ بْنُ يَزِيدَ عَنِ ابْنِ شِهَابٍ، قَالَ: حَدَّثَنِي سَعِيدُ بْنُ الْمُسَيِّبِ، قَالَ: لَمَّا تُوُفِّيَ أَبُو بَكْرٍ رَحِمَهُ اللَّهُ أَقَامَتْ عَلَيْهِ عَائِشَةُ النَّوْحَ، فَأَقْبَلَ عُمَرُ بْنُ الْخَطَّابِ حَتَّى قَامَ بِبَابِهَا، فَنَهَاهُنَّ عَنِ الْبُكَاءِ عَلَى أَبِي بَكْرٍ، فَأَبَيْنَ أَنْ يَنْتَهِينَ، فَقَالَ عُمَرُ لِهِشَامِ بْنِ الْوَلِيدِ: ادْخُلْ فَأَخْرِجْ إِلَيَّ ابْنَةَ أَبِي قُحَافَةَ، أُخْتَ أَبِي بَكْرٍ، فَقَالَتْ عَائِشَةُ لِهِشَامٍ حِينَ سَمِعَتْ ذَلِكَ مِنْ عُمَرَ: إِنِّي أُحَرِّجُ عَلَيْكَ بَيْتِي فَقَالَ عُمَرُ لِهِشَامٍ: ادْخُلْ فَقَدْ أَذِنْتُ لَكَ، فَدَخَلَ هِشَامٌ فَأَخْرَجَ أُمَّ فَرْوَةَ أُخْتَ أَبِي بَكْرٍ إِلَى عُمَرَ، فَعَلاهَا بِالدِّرَّةِ، فَضَرَبَهَا ضَرَبَاتٍ، فَتَفَرَّقَ النَّوْحُ حِينَ سَمِعُوا ذَلِكَ.
..........
 امام یحیی بن معین:

أَصَحُّ الْمَرَاسِيلِ مَرَاسِيلُ سَعِيدِ بْنِ الْمُسَيِّبِ
 معرفۃ علوم الحدیث، امام حاکم، ص 26؛  تحریر علم الحدیث عبداللہ بن یوسف، ج 2، ص 932 پر اس قول کی سند کو صحیح کہا گیا ہے)

 علامہ شمس الدین ذہبی فی کتابہِ سیر اعلام نبلاء، ج4 ، ص 221 

هَذَا حَدِيْثٌ مُرْسَلٌ، وَمَرَاسِيْلُ سَعِيْدٍ مُحْتَجٌّ بِهَا.
قَالَ أَحْمَدُ بنُ حَنْبَلٍ، وَغَيْرُ وَاحِدٍ: مُرْسَلاَتُ سَعِيْدِ بنِ المُسَيِّبِ صِحَاحٌ.
...........
#__Shia of Ali__#
#__Sunni of Prophet Muhammad__#

Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: Did Ayesha do Matam for Abu Bakar too..?
« Reply #1 on: May 26, 2019, 10:32:34 PM »
السلام علیکم..
toda3i faced with a shia about matam and he quoted the hadith when Ayesha ra did matam for Prophet PBUH (beating her face), in the same hadith she says that was because of her ignorance and lil age (that she didn't know how to act) but then he quoted another narration whuch says she did Matam for Abu Bakar ra too along with other women..
here's the reference.

تاریخ طبری، ج 3، ص 423 

حَدَّثَنِي يُونُسُ، قَالَ: أَخْبَرَنَا ابْنُ وَهْبٍ، قَالَ: أَخْبَرَنَا يُونُسُ بْنُ يَزِيدَ عَنِ ابْنِ شِهَابٍ، قَالَ: حَدَّثَنِي سَعِيدُ بْنُ الْمُسَيِّبِ، قَالَ: لَمَّا تُوُفِّيَ أَبُو بَكْرٍ رَحِمَهُ اللَّهُ أَقَامَتْ عَلَيْهِ عَائِشَةُ النَّوْحَ، فَأَقْبَلَ عُمَرُ بْنُ الْخَطَّابِ حَتَّى قَامَ بِبَابِهَا، فَنَهَاهُنَّ عَنِ الْبُكَاءِ عَلَى أَبِي بَكْرٍ، فَأَبَيْنَ أَنْ يَنْتَهِينَ، فَقَالَ عُمَرُ لِهِشَامِ بْنِ الْوَلِيدِ: ادْخُلْ فَأَخْرِجْ إِلَيَّ ابْنَةَ أَبِي قُحَافَةَ، أُخْتَ أَبِي بَكْرٍ، فَقَالَتْ عَائِشَةُ لِهِشَامٍ حِينَ سَمِعَتْ ذَلِكَ مِنْ عُمَرَ: إِنِّي أُحَرِّجُ عَلَيْكَ بَيْتِي فَقَالَ عُمَرُ لِهِشَامٍ: ادْخُلْ فَقَدْ أَذِنْتُ لَكَ، فَدَخَلَ هِشَامٌ فَأَخْرَجَ أُمَّ فَرْوَةَ أُخْتَ أَبِي بَكْرٍ إِلَى عُمَرَ، فَعَلاهَا بِالدِّرَّةِ، فَضَرَبَهَا ضَرَبَاتٍ، فَتَفَرَّقَ النَّوْحُ حِينَ سَمِعُوا ذَلِكَ.
..........
 امام یحیی بن معین:

أَصَحُّ الْمَرَاسِيلِ مَرَاسِيلُ سَعِيدِ بْنِ الْمُسَيِّبِ
 معرفۃ علوم الحدیث، امام حاکم، ص 26؛  تحریر علم الحدیث عبداللہ بن یوسف، ج 2، ص 932 پر اس قول کی سند کو صحیح کہا گیا ہے)

 علامہ شمس الدین ذہبی فی کتابہِ سیر اعلام نبلاء، ج4 ، ص 221 

هَذَا حَدِيْثٌ مُرْسَلٌ، وَمَرَاسِيْلُ سَعِيْدٍ مُحْتَجٌّ بِهَا.
قَالَ أَحْمَدُ بنُ حَنْبَلٍ، وَغَيْرُ وَاحِدٍ: مُرْسَلاَتُ سَعِيْدِ بنِ المُسَيِّبِ صِحَاحٌ.
...........

Wa alaikumsalam.

The main narrator of the hadeeth Saeed bin Musayyib was born in 15 AH, during Caliphate of Umar(RA). We don't know from whom he came to know about this incident. Hence, it is weak.

Moreover, the report just says she mourned. It doesn't say she did Matam as in beating and hitting oneself, like what shias do.

Shia not Rafidi

Re: Did Ayesha do Matam for Abu Bakar too..?
« Reply #2 on: May 27, 2019, 07:57:59 AM »
Wa alaikumsalam.

The main narrator of the hadeeth Saeed bin Musayyib was born in 15 AH, during Caliphate of Umar(RA). We don't know from whom he came to know about this incident. Hence, it is weak.

Moreover, the report just says she mourned. It doesn't say she did Matam as in beating and hitting oneself, like what shias do.
حضرتِ ابوہریرہ رضی اللہ تعالیٰ عنہ :
 اِثْنَتَانِ فِیْ النَّاسِ ھُمَا بِھِمْ کُفْرٌ: اَلطَّعْنُ فِیْ النَّسَبِ وَالنِّیَاحَۃُ عَلیَ الْمَیِّتِ۔(مسلم،اطلاق اسم الکفر علی الطعن فی النسب)
#__Shia of Ali__#
#__Sunni of Prophet Muhammad__#

Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: Did Ayesha do Matam for Abu Bakar too..?
« Reply #3 on: May 27, 2019, 08:40:34 AM »
حضرتِ ابوہریرہ رضی اللہ تعالیٰ عنہ :
 اِثْنَتَانِ فِیْ النَّاسِ ھُمَا بِھِمْ کُفْرٌ: اَلطَّعْنُ فِیْ النَّسَبِ وَالنِّیَاحَۃُ عَلیَ الْمَیِّتِ۔(مسلم،اطلاق اسم الکفر علی الطعن فی النسب)
The report about Ayesha(ra) is weak. And the point I mentioned was to show that it can’t be used by Shias in support of what they call Matam.

Ibn Taymiyya

Re: Did Ayesha do Matam for Abu Bakar too..?
« Reply #4 on: May 27, 2019, 01:31:03 PM »
The report about Ayesha(ra) is weak. And the point I mentioned was to show that it can’t be used by Shias in support of what they call Matam.
Quote
They think that their annual and pre-determined plan of hitting themselves in mourning for the death of Hussain is anything comparable to any of the narrations above where people hit themselves due to the harsh circumstances that they were in.

Sure, you in a grievious moment could "lose control" and might hit your head or face (not hard to enough to bleed or cause bruises). Fine that is understandable. but its not like you preplan to do so every single year and turn it into a religious event. Its not like this is something that you want to do.

Man these shias and what they would appeal to inorder to justify their nonsense. Its just sad.
Quote
Also, the Prophet peace be upon him said that we should not mourn for more than three days. The Shias try to reply back citing the "Year of Mourning" when the Prophet's uncle and wife died. They say that this is an entire year, which is more than three days.

First of all, "Year of Mourning" does not imply that they mourned for an actual year. It implies that this tragic incident occurred during that year. Similar to the "Year of the Elephant". No one understood that this event actually took a whole year, but that this is the year in which this incident occurred.

Secondly, one has to prove that this took place after the prophet said that one should not mourn for more than three days.
by bassam zawadi
wasn't it for umar r.a , that islam entered persia ?

Shia not Rafidi

Re: Did Ayesha do Matam for Abu Bakar too..?
« Reply #5 on: May 28, 2019, 07:17:31 AM »
by bassam zawadi
ok fine and Thanks for your replies.. one more thing, i need some online libraries to explore through various books on both shia an sunni let itbe Arabic or English or whatever the language is
#__Shia of Ali__#
#__Sunni of Prophet Muhammad__#

Ibn Taymiyya

Re: Did Ayesha do Matam for Abu Bakar too..?
« Reply #6 on: May 28, 2019, 01:40:48 PM »
ok fine and Thanks for your replies.. one more thing, i need some online libraries to explore through various books on both shia an sunni let itbe Arabic or English or whatever the language is
i dont think there will be specific libraries, which hold books exclusively on the subject
but here are few books you may read
https://islamhouse.com/en/books/2825559/
https://islamhouse.com/en/books/256040/
https://gift2shias.com/2016/10/15/superb-books-in-english/
« Last Edit: May 28, 2019, 01:44:15 PM by Ibn Taymiyya »
wasn't it for umar r.a , that islam entered persia ?

Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: Did Ayesha do Matam for Abu Bakar too..?
« Reply #7 on: May 28, 2019, 02:41:32 PM »
ok fine and Thanks for your replies.. one more thing, i need some online libraries to explore through various books on both shia an sunni let itbe Arabic or English or whatever the language is
Read thoroughly the book -Minhaj as-Sunnah by Imam Ahmad ibn Taymiyyah, that's sufficient. You may add to the list, Usul Madhab al-Shia by Qaffari. This one https://mahajjah.com/usul-madhab-al-shia-al-imamiyyah-al-ithna-ashariyyah/
 

Rationalist

Re: Did Ayesha do Matam for Abu Bakar too..?
« Reply #8 on: May 28, 2019, 05:08:06 PM »
The narration here shows that Prophet (pbuh) died in Ayesha's lap. This is a big contradiction to the belief that the Prophet (pbuh) died on Ali's chest.

Shia not Rafidi

Re: Did Ayesha do Matam for Abu Bakar too..?
« Reply #9 on: May 28, 2019, 08:31:01 PM »
Read thoroughly the book -Minhaj as-Sunnah by Imam Ahmad ibn Taymiyyah, that's sufficient. You may add to the list, Usul Madhab al-Shia by Qaffari. This one https://mahajjah.com/usul-madhab-al-shia-al-imamiyyah-al-ithna-ashariyyah/
i mean websites like Waqfeya and shamela where all kinds of books can be found
#__Shia of Ali__#
#__Sunni of Prophet Muhammad__#

Ibn Taymiyya

Re: Did Ayesha do Matam for Abu Bakar too..?
« Reply #10 on: May 29, 2019, 06:08:50 PM »
i mean websites like Waqfeya and shamela where all kinds of books can be found
https://www.australianislamiclibrary.org
« Last Edit: May 29, 2019, 06:10:48 PM by Ibn Taymiyya »
wasn't it for umar r.a , that islam entered persia ?

Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: Did Ayesha do Matam for Abu Bakar too..?
« Reply #11 on: May 22, 2020, 03:18:38 AM »
This argument was answered in this article:
https://youpuncturedtheark.wordpress.com/2019/09/27/crying-for-hussainas-because-prophets-wept-then-why-hypocrisy/

A Zindeeq named Abbas Hussain(Shia shogun) who goes with a different name on this forum, raised the argument, Hence I felt to respond it in the article.

 

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