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Did Muawiyah (RA) curse Ali (RA) from the pulpit?

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Optimus Prime

Did Muawiyah (RA) curse Ali (RA) from the pulpit?
« on: March 15, 2015, 05:28:31 PM »
I've never discussed or researched this myself, but just read that many of the narrations that suggest so are all weak. Is this correct?

Hani, I re-call you saying in another thread since it was a time of fitna that it wouldn't be surprising if they did and don't require an authentic narration to tell you that.

Are we accussing both slandering and backbiting one another?

Hani

Re: Did Muawiyah (RA) curse Ali (RA) from the pulpit?
« Reply #1 on: March 15, 2015, 06:27:08 PM »
I'm a hundred percent sure he abused `Ali without the need of an authentic narration, not just him, most of bani Umayyah, a lot from the people of Shaam and a good number of the governors in authority under Mu`awiyah all abused and slandered `Ali.

`Ali and many from banu Hashim and `Ali's army and governors as well as the rebels who besieged `Uthman, they also abused Mu`awiyah openly. Some thugs from `Ali's army even began to insult some of the wives and companions of the Prophet (saw) but `Ali silenced them.

That was all as far as the political Fitnah and the disagreement on who gets the kingdom.

On the other hand a group emerged that not only abused, but cursed and declared Takfeer on all other sides, that's the Haruriyyah.

عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Taha

Re: Did Muawiyah (RA) curse Ali (RA) from the pulpit?
« Reply #2 on: March 15, 2015, 06:35:12 PM »
What is the difference between abusing and cursing?

Hani

Re: Did Muawiyah (RA) curse Ali (RA) from the pulpit?
« Reply #3 on: March 15, 2015, 07:41:46 PM »
al-Subaab is usually verbally abusing someone, such as saying Marwan is a foolish moron or Marwan is an ignorant donkey.

al-La`n is cursing, which is more religious oriented, such as saying May Allah's curse befall Marwan, may Allah remove Marwan from his mercy and punish him.

What is established historically that `Ali and Mu`awiyah never declared Takfeer on eachother, they just had a great political dispute, which led to battles and hatred that lasted for centuries between `Uthmanis and `Alawies. Both parties treated eachother as Muslims and did not apply any of the rulings of apostasy on the other side.

The Haruriyyah on the other hand were a whole different story.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2015, 07:50:43 PM by Hani »
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Optimus Prime

Re: Did Muawiyah (RA) curse Ali (RA) from the pulpit?
« Reply #4 on: March 15, 2015, 08:21:25 PM »
What about the narrations used by the Shias? Are they authentic?

Hani

Re: Did Muawiyah (RA) curse Ali (RA) from the pulpit?
« Reply #5 on: March 15, 2015, 09:35:21 PM »
What narrations? lol Shia are usually confused they browse books as if possessed by demons, they just jump from book to book in the most amateur and biased manner, collect whatever suites their views and spread it as if it's a fact.

When it comes to the narrations quoted about Mu`awiyah, they need to be analysed especially in terms of their chains, some will be correct and some won't be.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Ameen

Re: Did Muawiyah (RA) curse Ali (RA) from the pulpit?
« Reply #6 on: March 16, 2015, 08:16:46 PM »
I've never discussed or researched this myself, but just read that many of the narrations that suggest so are all weak. Is this correct?

Hani, I re-call you saying in another thread since it was a time of fitna that it wouldn't be surprising if they did and don't require an authentic narration to tell you that.

Are we accussing both slandering and backbiting one another?

Well according to the history books this is exactly what Ameer Muavia (ra) ordered and did. And much much more. But these narrations are automatically considered weak and unreliable because they go against Bani Umeya supporters.

Otherwise no proper explanation has ever been given to why these narrations are suddenly considered weak apart from just branding them weak and that's just it.

The rest is all clear and open but certain people want to muddy the water and confuse things just to make the guilty look good to some extent.

The time of fitna??? What the hell does this suppose to mean??? It's like saying, "it's tea time" and everyone is having tea and biscuits so, it's all ok and everyone is fine and right.

The double standards are still up and running till this very day.


















Furkan

Re: Did Muawiyah (RA) curse Ali (RA) from the pulpit?
« Reply #7 on: March 16, 2015, 08:44:37 PM »
Ameen, can you explain to us why you say "ra" behind Muawiya's name? (honest question)
Before Qazî Mihemed, President of the first kurdish Republic Mahabad was hanged the iranian judge asked:

“last words?”

Qazî: “I thank Allah: even in death he put my shoes above your heads”

Optimus Prime

Re: Did Muawiyah (RA) curse Ali (RA) from the pulpit?
« Reply #8 on: March 16, 2015, 09:04:20 PM »
I've never discussed or researched this myself, but just read that many of the narrations that suggest so are all weak. Is this correct?

Hani, I re-call you saying in another thread since it was a time of fitna that it wouldn't be surprising if they did and don't require an authentic narration to tell you that.

Are we accussing both slandering and backbiting one another?

Well according to the history books this is exactly what Ameer Muavia (ra) ordered and did. And much much more. But these narrations are automatically considered weak and unreliable because they go against Bani Umeya supporters.

Otherwise no proper explanation has ever been given to why these narrations are suddenly considered weak apart from just branding them weak and that's just it.

The rest is all clear and open but certain people want to muddy the water and confuse things just to make the guilty look good to some extent.

The time of fitna??? What the hell does this suppose to mean??? It's like saying, "it's tea time" and everyone is having tea and biscuits so, it's all ok and everyone is fine and right.

The double standards are still up and running till this very day.



No, you're automatically assuming and/or talking [edit] as usual. Do extensive research, and I can betcha' you'll find many scholars explaining why they're weak.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2015, 10:07:05 PM by Hani »

Ameen

Re: Did Muawiyah (RA) curse Ali (RA) from the pulpit?
« Reply #9 on: March 17, 2015, 01:31:05 AM »
Ameen, can you explain to us why you say "ra" behind Muawiya's name? (honest question)

What seems to be the problem or query??? Was he not the companion of the Prophet (pbuh)??? I also put (ra) after Aisha, although she went to war with the Ulul Amre of the time but you don't seem to question that. Having a link with the Messenger (pbuh) has its own place and what you say or do has its own consequences.

Furkan

Re: Did Muawiyah (RA) curse Ali (RA) from the pulpit?
« Reply #10 on: March 17, 2015, 01:35:55 AM »
So you want Allah to be pleased with Muawiya (ra) ? ( a simple yes or no will suffice).
Before Qazî Mihemed, President of the first kurdish Republic Mahabad was hanged the iranian judge asked:

“last words?”

Qazî: “I thank Allah: even in death he put my shoes above your heads”

Optimus Prime

Re: Did Muawiyah (RA) curse Ali (RA) from the pulpit?
« Reply #11 on: March 17, 2015, 01:42:45 AM »
So you want Allah to be pleased with Muawiya (ra) ? ( a simple yes or no will suffice).

LOL.

Exactly, he doesn't seem to enjoy answering the questions directly.

Ameen

Re: Did Muawiyah (RA) curse Ali (RA) from the pulpit?
« Reply #12 on: March 17, 2015, 01:47:15 AM »
I've never discussed or researched this myself, but just read that many of the narrations that suggest so are all weak. Is this correct?

Hani, I re-call you saying in another thread since it was a time of fitna that it wouldn't be surprising if they did and don't require an authentic narration to tell you that.

Are we accussing both slandering and backbiting one another?

Well according to the history books this is exactly what Ameer Muavia (ra) ordered and did. And much much more. But these narrations are automatically considered weak and unreliable because they go against Bani Umeya supporters.

Otherwise no proper explanation has ever been given to why these narrations are suddenly considered weak apart from just branding them weak and that's just it.

The rest is all clear and open but certain people want to muddy the water and confuse things just to make the guilty look good to some extent.

The time of fitna??? What the hell does this suppose to mean??? It's like saying, "it's tea time" and everyone is having tea and biscuits so, it's all ok and everyone is fine and right.

The double standards are still up and running till this very day.



No, you're automatically assuming and/or talking [edit] as usual. Do extensive research, and I can betcha' you'll find many scholars explaining why they're weak.

Have you done research??? If yes then why are these narrations weak??? Why don't you tell me??? War is war full stop. Those who you go to war with are your enemies and you consider them as your enemies. Not one and not two, oh no but in fact Ameer Muavia (ra) used his influence and strength and fought 72 battles with the rightly guided Khalif and the Ulul Amre of the time and you still want to make it look like as though it was some kind of misunderstanding.

He saw Hazrath Ali (as) has his enemy and the bad blood was already there since Badar and Ohad. It was all about the grudge concerning Muavia's (ra) ancestors who were killed during the early battles. Why did Yazeed say "I have avenged the deaths of my ancestors who were killed during Badar" when Hussain's (as) head entered the palace of Yazeed??? Who told Yazeed about the bitter history of his ancestors??? His father!

What is the difference between father and son??? Muavia (ra) settled his differences and fed his grudge through politics, through techniques and tactics, through excuses that could be favoured and bought, where as Yazeed came out straight in to the open. One can not deny that the dad had no part in bringing up his son and is not responsible to some extent for his sons actions and ways.

Ameen

Re: Did Muawiyah (RA) curse Ali (RA) from the pulpit?
« Reply #13 on: March 17, 2015, 01:56:26 AM »
So you want Allah to be pleased with Muawiya (ra) ? ( a simple yes or no will suffice).

You ask rhetoric questions then you want a simple answer. Ok, you can call anyone (ra) or what ever you want but it is down to Allah to decide. And the decision will be based on the criteria that Allah has already laid down.

"Wa May Yamal Miskala Zarathin Kherin Yarah, Wa May Yamal Miskala Zarathin Sharin Yarah",

Who ever does a good deed no matter how small it is, that will be closely looked at and brought in to account and who ever does a bad deed no matter how small it is will also be closely looked at and brought in to account.

We will be tried and held accountable for out intentions and thoughts and it doesn't matter who we are, be it the common and average folk or the companions and wives.

Ameen

Re: Did Muawiyah (RA) curse Ali (RA) from the pulpit?
« Reply #14 on: March 17, 2015, 01:57:41 AM »
So you want Allah to be pleased with Muawiya (ra) ? ( a simple yes or no will suffice).

LOL.

Exactly, he doesn't seem to enjoy answering the questions directly.

LOL, directly??? Or the answer you want and are looking for???

Khaled

Re: Did Muawiyah (RA) curse Ali (RA) from the pulpit?
« Reply #15 on: March 17, 2015, 02:00:07 AM »
So you want Allah to be pleased with Muawiya (ra) ? ( a simple yes or no will suffice).

LOL.

Exactly, he doesn't seem to enjoy answering the questions directly.

LOL, directly??? Or the answer you want and are looking for???

He asked a yes or no question and he expected a yes or no answer...
كلُّ سُلامى من الناس عليه صدقة كلَّ يوم تطلع فيه الشمس، تَعدلُ بين اثنين صدقة، وتعين الرَّجل في دابَّته فتحمله عليها أو ترفع له عليها متاعَه صدقة، والكلمةُ الطيِّبة صدقة، وبكلِّ خطوة تَمشيها إلى الصلاة صدقة، وتُميط الأذى عن الطريق صدقة

Optimus Prime

Re: Did Muawiyah (RA) curse Ali (RA) from the pulpit?
« Reply #16 on: March 17, 2015, 02:03:52 AM »
So you want Allah to be pleased with Muawiya (ra) ? ( a simple yes or no will suffice).

You ask rhetoric questions then you want a simple answer. Ok, you can call anyone (ra) or what ever you want but it is down to Allah to decide. And the decision will be based on the criteria that Allah has already laid down.

"Wa May Yamal Miskala Zarathin Kherin Yarah, Wa May Yamal Miskala Zarathin Sharin Yarah",

Who ever does a good deed no matter how small it is, that will be closely looked at and brought in to account and who ever does a bad deed no matter how small it is will also be closely looked at and brought in to account.

We will be tried and held accountable for out intentions and thoughts and it doesn't matter who we are, be it the common and average folk or the companions and wives.

More re-hashed bollocks.

Optimus Prime

Re: Did Muawiyah (RA) curse Ali (RA) from the pulpit?
« Reply #17 on: March 17, 2015, 02:05:53 AM »
So you want Allah to be pleased with Muawiya (ra) ? ( a simple yes or no will suffice).

LOL.

Exactly, he doesn't seem to enjoy answering the questions directly.

LOL, directly??? Or the answer you want and are looking for???

The logical answer that anyone would give who has the ability to think straight and not backwards.

Based on your reasoning next time say Yazid (RA). ;)

Ameen

Re: Did Muawiyah (RA) curse Ali (RA) from the pulpit?
« Reply #18 on: March 17, 2015, 02:08:48 AM »
So you want Allah to be pleased with Muawiya (ra) ? ( a simple yes or no will suffice).

LOL.

Exactly, he doesn't seem to enjoy answering the questions directly.

LOL, directly??? Or the answer you want and are looking for???

The logical answer that anyone would give who has the ability to think straight and not backwards.

Based on your reasoning next time say Yazid (RA). ;)

Wow, you should get a reward for this. Bravo and well done. Give yourself a pat on the back. What an achievement.

Optimus Prime

Re: Did Muawiyah (RA) curse Ali (RA) from the pulpit?
« Reply #19 on: March 17, 2015, 02:11:16 AM »
So you want Allah to be pleased with Muawiya (ra) ? ( a simple yes or no will suffice).

LOL.

Exactly, he doesn't seem to enjoy answering the questions directly.

LOL, directly??? Or the answer you want and are looking for???

The logical answer that anyone would give who has the ability to think straight and not backwards.

Based on your reasoning next time say Yazid (RA). ;)

Wow, you should get a reward for this. Bravo and well done. Give yourself a pat on the back. What an achievement.

I sure should.

May Allah be pleased with Yazid. Now don't contribute to this thread if you have nothing else constructive to contribute.

 

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