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Did Muawiyah Killed Muhammad ibn Abubakar and Hassan ?

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Did Muawiyah Killed Muhammad ibn Abubakar and Hassan ?
« on: October 24, 2015, 01:29:04 AM »
Salam
-How authentic is it that Muawiyah killed Mohammed ibn Abubakar and burnt his body on a horse?

-Also Did muawiyah really bribed Hassan's wife to poison him(Hassan Ibn Ali) ?

Rationalist

Re: Did Muawiyah Killed Muhammad ibn Abubakar and Hassan ?
« Reply #1 on: October 24, 2015, 08:58:28 AM »
Salam
-How authentic is it that Muawiyah killed Mohammed ibn Abubakar and burnt his body on a horse?
I believe  ibn Hajar has a report on it.

Quote
-Also Did muawiyah really bribed Hassan's wife to poison him(Hassan Ibn Ali) ?
This is is tough one since most Sunni scholars try to blame Yazid for it.

Hani

Re: Did Muawiyah Killed Muhammad ibn Abubakar and Hassan ?
« Reply #2 on: October 24, 2015, 06:24:58 PM »
Salam
-How authentic is it that Muawiyah killed Mohammed ibn Abubakar and burnt his body on a horse?

-Also Did muawiyah really bribed Hassan's wife to poison him(Hassan Ibn Ali) ?

1- Mu`awiyah himself didn't do it, it could be that one of his commanders did it assuming this is true (I recall a donkey and then it was burned?)

2- This is nothing more than a rumor, not verified historical fact so it's dismissed.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Optimus Prime

Re: Did Muawiyah Killed Muhammad ibn Abubakar and Hassan ?
« Reply #3 on: October 24, 2015, 09:16:13 PM »
Rationalist, post the report.

Hadrami

Re: Did Muawiyah Killed Muhammad ibn Abubakar and Hassan ?
« Reply #4 on: October 26, 2015, 01:55:24 AM »
Rationalist, post the report.


Unless Rationalist has changed his opinion, I don't think you should take anything related to this issue from someone who believes Hasan ra gave up khilafah to a kafir.

Optimus Prime

Re: Did Muawiyah Killed Muhammad ibn Abubakar and Hassan ?
« Reply #5 on: October 26, 2015, 02:19:59 AM »
Just curious, akhi.

Rationalist

Re: Did Muawiyah Killed Muhammad ibn Abubakar and Hassan ?
« Reply #6 on: October 28, 2015, 03:30:43 AM »
Rationalist, post the report.


al-Isabah Ibn Hajr - الإصابة في تمييز الصحابة [Companion (RA), Id:8300. - pg:6/245]
محمد بن أبي بكر الصديق تقدم نسبه في ترجمة والده عبد الله بن عثمان وأمه أسماء بنت عميس الخثعمية ولدته في طريق المدينة إلى مكة في حجة الوداع كما ثبت عند مسلم في حديث جابر الطويل ونشأ محمد في حجر علي لأنه كان تزوج أمه وروى عن أبيه مرسلا وعن أمه وغيرها قليلا روى عنه ابنه القاسم بن محمد وحديثه عنه عند النسائي وغيره من رواية يحيى بن سعيد عن القاسم عن أبيه عن أبي بكر وشهد محمد مع الجمل وصفين ثم أرسله إلى مصر أميرا فدخلها في شهر رمضان سنة سبع وثلاثين فولى إمارتها لعلي ثم جهز معاوية عمرو بن العاص في عسكر إلى مصر فقاتلهم محمد وانهزم ثم قتل في صفر سنة ثمان حكاه بن يونس وقال إنه اختفى لما انهزم في بيت امرأة فأخذ من بيتها فقتل وقال بن عبد البر كان علي يثني عليه ويفضله وكانت له عبادة واجتهاد ولما بلغ عائشة قتله حزنت عليه جدا وتولت تربية ولده القاسم فنشأ في حجرها فكان من أفضل أهل زمانه وأخرج البغوي في ترجمته من طريق عبد العزيز بن رفيع عن محمد بن أبي بكر قال أظلمت ليلة وكان لها ريح ومطر فأمر رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم المؤذنين أن ينادوا صلوا في رحالكم ثم قال لا أحسبه محمد بن الصديق
al-Isabah Ibn Hajr - الإصابة في تمييز الصحابة [Companion (RA), Id:8310. - pg:6/250]
محمد بن عبد الله بن عثمان التيمي أبو القاسم بن أبي بكر الصديق تقدم في محمد بن أبي بكر
Thiqat Ibn Hibban - ثقات ابن حبان [Companion (RA), Id:1213. - pg:Vol:3]
محمد بن أبي بكر الصديق ولد بالشجرة وهي البيداء مع رسول الله صلي الله عليه وسلم أمه أسماء بنت عميس الخثعمية وذلك في حجة الوداع فولي علي محمد بن أبي بكر مصر وصار إليه عمرو بن العاص فاقتتلوا فانهزم محمد بن أبي بكر فدخل خربة فيها حمار ميت فدخل جوفه فأحرق في جوف الحمار وقد قيل إنه قتل بالمعركة قتله معاوية بن خديج والأول أصح وقد قيل إنه قتله عمرو بن العاص بعد أن أسره ويقال إن كنيته أبو القاسم
Tarikhul Kabir al-Bukhari - التاريخ الكبير [ Hadith Narrator, Id:369. - pg:Vol:1]
محمد بن عبد الله بن عثمان وهو محمد بن أبي بكر بن أبي قحافة القرشي التيمي ولد عام حجة الوداع قاله لنا إسماعيل بن أبي أويس عن مالك عن عبد الرحمن عن أبيه عن أسماء بنت عميس أنها ولدته بالبيداء روى عنه ابنه القاسم يختلفون في حديثه قتل بمصر في زمن علي وقال لنا بن سلام أخبرنا عبدة عن عبيد الله عن عبد الرحمن بن القاسم عن أبيه عن عائشة أن أسماء نفست بالشجرة وقال لنا إسماعيل حدثني أخي عن سليمان عن يحيى بن سعيد سمعت القاسم يحدث عن أبيه عن أبي بكر الصديق قال خرج حاجا مع النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم فولدت أسماء بالشجرة محمد بن أبي بكر
Tahdheeb al-Tahdheeb Ibn Hajr - تهذيب التهذيب - ابن حجر [ Hadith Narrator, Id:8101. - pg:Vol:9]
محمد بن أبي بكر الصديق القرشي التيمي أبو القاسم المدني ولد عام حجة الوداع روى عن أبيه مرسلا وعن أمه أسماء بنت عميس روى عنه ابنه القاسم قال بن يونس قدم مصر أميرا عليها من قبل علي بن أبي طالب وجمع له صلاتها وخراجها فدخل في رمضان سنة 37 وقيل في صفر سنة 83 قتل يوم المسناة لما انهزم المصريون فقيل أنه اختفي في بيت امرأة من غافق آواه فيه أخوها وكانت الذي يطلبه معاوية بن حديج فلقيتهم أخت الرجل الذي كان آواه وكان ناقصة العقل فظنت أنهم يطلبون أخاها فقالت أدلكم علي محمد بن أبي بكر علي أن لا تقتلوا أخي قالوا نعم فدلتهم عليه فقال احفظوني لأبي بكر فقال معاوية قتلت ثمانين من قومي في دم عثمان وأتركك وأنت صاحبه فقتله حدثنا بذلك من أمره حسن بن محمد المدني عن يحيى بن بكير عن الليث عن عبد الكريم بن الحارث بهذا ونحوه له عندهما في حج أبيه في حجة الوداع قلت وقال بن عبد البر في الاستيعاب كان علي يثني عليه ويفضله لأنه كان له عبادة واجتهاد وكان علي رجالة علي يوم صفين وقال بن حبان قيل أن محمدا قتل في المعركة وقيل أن عمرو بن العاص قتله بعد أن أسره >> س ق النسائي وابن ماجة
Taqrib al-Tahdheeb Ibn Hajr - تقريب التهذيب - ابن حجر العسقلاني [ Hadith Narrator, Id:5764. - pg:470]
محمد بن أبي بكر الصديق أبو القاسم له رؤية وقتل سنة ثمان وثلاثين وكان علي يثني عليه س ق

Rationalist

Re: Did Muawiyah Killed Muhammad ibn Abubakar and Hassan ?
« Reply #7 on: October 28, 2015, 03:32:28 AM »
Rationalist, post the report.


Unless Rationalist has changed his opinion, I don't think you should take anything related to this issue from someone who believes Hasan ra gave up khilafah to a kafir.

I don't differ from the Khawarij, Zaidi, 12ers, Mutazilla and the other Shia sects on Muawiyah.

Hadrami

Re: Did Muawiyah Killed Muhammad ibn Abubakar and Hassan ?
« Reply #8 on: October 28, 2015, 09:44:08 AM »
Rationalist, post the report.


Unless Rationalist has changed his opinion, I don't think you should take anything related to this issue from someone who believes Hasan ra gave up khilafah to a kafir.

I don't differ from the Khawarij, Zaidi, 12ers, Mutazilla and the other Shia sects on Muawiyah.

I wonder why those who believe muawiyah RA was a kafir never ask this simple question

If muawiyah ra was a kafir, why on earth hasan ra pledged allegiance to him and also told him to rule according to quran & sunnah?

I never received a satisfactory answer to that question.

Rationalist

Re: Did Muawiyah Killed Muhammad ibn Abubakar and Hassan ?
« Reply #9 on: October 30, 2015, 03:33:15 AM »


I wonder why those who believe muawiyah RA was a kafir never ask this simple question

If muawiyah ra was a kafir, why on earth hasan ra pledged allegiance to him and also told him to rule according to quran & sunnah?

I never received a satisfactory answer to that question.

If you live outside a Muslim country your leader is a kaffir. How is this any different? Likewise, Imam Hassan's (as) father was betrayed in the arbitration, so he didn't accept the bayah of the treacherous people of Kufa to continue leading. His brother Imam Hussain (as) on the other hand was different from Imam Hassan (as). Also, unlike the 12er Shia sect, I do not believe the Imam's ijitihad is equal to the status of Wahi.

Hadrami

Re: Did Muawiyah Killed Muhammad ibn Abubakar and Hassan ?
« Reply #10 on: October 30, 2015, 01:21:23 PM »
If you live outside a Muslim country your leader is a kaffir. How is this any different?

Let me tell you 3 main differences:

- were you the leader of muslim nation?
- did you leave your post and then hand over it to your kafir leader?
- did you tell your kafir leader that he has to rule by quran & sunnah?

Realise the differences now?

Rationalist

Re: Did Muawiyah Killed Muhammad ibn Abubakar and Hassan ?
« Reply #11 on: October 31, 2015, 02:18:07 AM »
If you live outside a Muslim country your leader is a kaffir. How is this any different?

Let me tell you 3 main differences:

- were you the leader of muslim nation?
- did you leave your post and then hand over it to your kafir leader?
- did you tell your kafir leader that he has to rule by quran & sunnah?

Realise the differences now?

Ok if you go by your logic, is Yazid a kaffir ?

Hani

Re: Did Muawiyah Killed Muhammad ibn Abubakar and Hassan ?
« Reply #12 on: October 31, 2015, 03:44:05 AM »
Fear Allah people, Takfir is not a small thing. I'd rather call a Muslim "Great sinner" and curse him then to declare him a disbeliever.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Optimus Prime

Re: Did Muawiyah Killed Muhammad ibn Abubakar and Hassan ?
« Reply #13 on: October 31, 2015, 03:52:52 AM »
Was Firawn a disbeliever?

Hadrami

Re: Did Muawiyah Killed Muhammad ibn Abubakar and Hassan ?
« Reply #14 on: October 31, 2015, 10:20:15 PM »
If you live outside a Muslim country your leader is a kaffir. How is this any different?

Let me tell you 3 main differences:

- were you the leader of muslim nation?
- did you leave your post and then hand over it to your kafir leader?
- did you tell your kafir leader that he has to rule by quran & sunnah?

Realise the differences now?

Ok if you go by your logic, is Yazid a kaffir ?

dont be like a 12er who always jumps around. Did you or did you not tell your kafir leader to rule by quran & sunnah as hasan ra told muawiyah ra?

everytime a shia or someone else try to slander a companion, they end up ridiculing ahlulbait ra.

so either hasan ra knew that muawiya ra was a kafir and yet still told him to rule by quran & sunnah (irrational)
OR
muawiyah ra was told to do that because he wasnt a kafir but a muslim (rational)

Now are you rationalist or irrationalist?
« Last Edit: October 31, 2015, 10:43:52 PM by Hadrami »

Hadrami

Re: Did Muawiyah Killed Muhammad ibn Abubakar and Hassan ?
« Reply #15 on: October 31, 2015, 11:33:01 PM »
Was Firawn a disbeliever?

A shia once used firaun excuse, but he misses the fact that Hasan ra with his big army handed over the muslim nation and then promise to obey muawiyah ra (remember hasan ra also pledged his allegiance), BUT musa as with his 1 man army (harun as) came to firaun's palace and told him to believe in Allah SWT.

Then i asked, before you expect someone to rule islamically, shouldn't you tell them to be a muslim first? After that we went on a round the circle ride :D

Abdullah Efendi

Re: Did Muawiyah Killed Muhammad ibn Abubakar and Hassan ?
« Reply #16 on: November 04, 2015, 12:38:01 PM »
Salam
-How authentic is it that Muawiyah killed Mohammed ibn Abubakar and burnt his body on a horse?

-Also Did muawiyah really bribed Hassan's wife to poison him(Hassan Ibn Ali) ?

Alaikum Salam,  don't know the first one, as for the second there is sound report that Hasan been poisoned, but it also says that even Hasan himself didn't know the killer.

To blame anybody for this murder, we need to have sound report with unbroken chain from author of the book till the eye witness of incident where Yazid or Muawiyah ordered to kill Hasan.

Ibn Yahya

Re: Did Muawiyah Killed Muhammad ibn Abubakar and Hassan ?
« Reply #17 on: November 10, 2015, 03:00:48 AM »
Mu'awiyah certainly was a flawed individual even though at heart I honestly he ease good man and Rasul Allah certainly had love for him because he gave Du'a for him and gave him land. So Rasul Allah clearly saw good in him. And to be honest looking at his actions and character in the books of history confirm that. People overlook how much this Ummah, Sunni and non-Sunni alike has to thank Mu'awiyah for. Even to say he was a Dhalim is a stretch let alone a Kafir.

Optimus Prime

Re: Did Muawiyah Killed Muhammad ibn Abubakar and Hassan ?
« Reply #18 on: November 10, 2015, 02:42:35 PM »
Mu'awiyah certainly was a flawed individual even though at heart I honestly he ease good man and Rasul Allah certainly had love for him because he gave Du'a for him and gave him land. So Rasul Allah clearly saw good in him. And to be honest looking at his actions and character in the books of history confirm that. People overlook how much this Ummah, Sunni and non-Sunni alike has to thank Mu'awiyah for. Even to say he was a Dhalim is a stretch let alone a Kafir.

Asalamualaikum respected brother.

I hope you don't mind me saying, but saying "he was a flawed individual" is downright disrespectful and uncalled for in my opinion. Fear Allah, akhi, and seek repentance. When addressing any of the companions we must do so with decorum and utmost humility.

There is truth to what you're saying, and I fully realise you think of very highly of him as we all should, but it's a matter of principle and dignity of the Sahaba.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2015, 02:45:35 PM by Imam Ali »

Ibn Yahya

Re: Did Muawiyah Killed Muhammad ibn Abubakar and Hassan ?
« Reply #19 on: November 11, 2015, 02:07:54 AM »
Mu'awiyah certainly was a flawed individual even though at heart I honestly he ease good man and Rasul Allah certainly had love for him because he gave Du'a for him and gave him land. So Rasul Allah clearly saw good in him. And to be honest looking at his actions and character in the books of history confirm that. People overlook how much this Ummah, Sunni and non-Sunni alike has to thank Mu'awiyah for. Even to say he was a Dhalim is a stretch let alone a Kafir.

Asalamualaikum respected brother.

I hope you don't mind me saying, but saying "he was a flawed individual" is downright disrespectful and uncalled for in my opinion. Fear Allah, akhi, and seek repentance. When addressing any of the companions we must do so with decorum and utmost humility.

There is truth to what you're saying, and I fully realise you think of very highly of him as we all should, but it's a matter of principle and dignity of the Sahaba.

I meant no disrespect to Mu'awiyah. And Insha Allah I will choose my words more carefully next time.

 

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