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Sunni Shia Discussion Forum => General Sunni-Shia => Topic started by: Optimus Prime on March 08, 2015, 03:28:01 AM

Title: Did Umar ibn Sa'ad withdraw from the Battle of Karbala?
Post by: Optimus Prime on March 08, 2015, 03:28:01 AM
Asalamualaikum.

Is it true he withdraw after realising how far he took the whole thing?

A brother told me he did not take part in the Battle of Karbala?
Title: Re: Did Umar ibn Sa'ad withdraw from the Battle of Karbala?
Post by: Hani on March 08, 2015, 03:32:44 AM
I'll have to research this, but I do know he was threatened if he did not lead that army, so he selfishly decided to lead those men to battle.

Whether he withdrew and repented before or after the battle is another case since the doors of repentance are always open even from Shirk, let alone what is less.

Allah will give Husayn justice.
Title: Re: Did Umar ibn Sa'ad withdraw from the Battle of Karbala?
Post by: Optimus Prime on March 09, 2015, 12:28:16 AM
According to this lecture of Dr Yasir Qadhi, he's guilty:

Title: Re: Did Umar ibn Sa'ad withdraw from the Battle of Karbala?
Post by: Husayn on March 09, 2015, 12:45:03 AM
None of the sources I've read on this state that 'Umar ibn Sa'd retreated from the battle - I am quite sure he was there until the very end.

I remember Hurr ibn Yazid (rahimahullah) asks 'Umar ibn Sa'd "why are you doing this" and he says "ta'atun lil amir" - "obedience to the amir" ('Ubaidallah ibn Ziyad).

And he allows the horsemen to trample the body of al-Husayn (RA) after.

Infact, if I remember correctly, 'Umar ibn Sa'd shoots the first arrow and tells the people to testify to 'Ubaidallah that he fired the first shot.

I do not believe that ibn Sa'd had any animosity toward al-Husayn (RA) and his companions though - I think he was just lustful for worldly power, and didn't want to lose out on his prestigious position.

Infact, Shimr ibn Dhil Jawshan was sent to replace him, with orders to kill him if he didn't carry out ibn Ziyad orders, and I believe this is what spurred him into action (fear of losing his place).
Title: Re: Did Umar ibn Sa'ad withdraw from the Battle of Karbala?
Post by: Hani on March 09, 2015, 02:02:14 AM
I will write for you in summary what `Umar bin Sa`d ibn abi Waqqas's role was in the death of Husayn according to the book "al-Mihan" by abu al-`Arab:

When Muslim bin `Aqeel was arrested and before he was killed, he asked them to allow him to make a Wasiyyah, he looked at the faces of the people and saw `Umar bin Sa`d ibn abi Waqqas, he decided to offer his will to him and told him: "I see you are the only man from Quraysh here, come closer so I may tell you something." So he did and he told him: "If you wish to be from the masters of Quraysh for as long as Quraysh exists, then go to Husayn and his companions who are 90 individuals, men and women, and ask them to turn back and tell them what happened to me."

Muslim was killed so `Umar bin Sa`d told the man in charge that he heard something important, so he told him to keep the secrets of his cousin and not say, but `Umar insisted that he must know because it is a matter of great importance then told him about Husayn. The man said: "Now that you have said this, no one is to go and fight him other than you!"

After Husayn and his companions fought a group from the filth of `Iraq near the water, they won and were able to rest and drink. `Ubaydullah ibn Ziyad had meanwhile sent `Umar bin Sa`d with an army, and when they met Husayn and his companions, Husayn stood up and said to Ibn Sa`d: "I give you one of three choices: Either you let me go back, or you send me to Yazeed and I place my hand in his hand and he shall know how to judge me, or you send me to the Turks so I may fight until death."

`Umar ibn Sa`d sent this request to Ibn Ziyad who in turn decided to send him to Yazeed. A filthy man called Shahr ibn Hawshab (Not the popular narrator) told Ibn Ziyad that he must not let him go, he must pass his own judgement on him and Husayn must accept.

Husayn of course rejected this, and `Umar ibn Sa`d intentionally wasted time so as to not fight Husayn. Ibn Ziyad told Shahr: "If `Umar fights Husayn then fight, if he does not then kill him and take his place."

Thirty Koufans in `Umar ibn Sa`d's army became angry at the situation and defected to Husayn's side. A soldier from Ibn Sa`d's army went and killed a family member of Husayn, Husayn then retaliated by killing the man so a fight broke out and what happened happened.

^ That's what I found about `Umar ibn Sa`d in this book. We need to look at all the other books of course to get the most accurate story.
Title: Re: Did Umar ibn Sa'ad withdraw from the Battle of Karbala?
Post by: ahlebaitlover on March 09, 2015, 04:47:57 PM
I remember reading this in some book that umar ibn sa'ad ibn abi waqqas withdrew from fighting Husayn R.A. and was even ready to face the consequences from Ibn Ziyaad. However, the name of that book is not coming to mind right now. If anyone does have its name please write it here.
Title: Re: Did Umar ibn Sa'ad withdraw from the Battle of Karbala?
Post by: Optimus Prime on March 10, 2015, 01:09:30 AM
I remember reading this in some book that umar ibn sa'ad ibn abi waqqas withdrew from fighting Husayn R.A. and was even ready to face the consequences from Ibn Ziyaad. However, the name of that book is not coming to mind right now. If anyone does have its name please write it here.

I think you'll find most authentic sources suggesting otherwise, akhi.

Even Dr Yasir Qadhi reiterates what brother Hani said he did feel threatened, but in the end took part in the battle which, makes him partly responsible for spilling innocent blood of the Prophet's (SAW) family.

I hope you can find this book/source, so we can examine it's authenticity.
Title: Re: Did Umar ibn Sa'ad withdraw from the Battle of Karbala?
Post by: Hani on March 10, 2015, 01:18:26 AM
Does `Umar ibn Sa`d ibn abi Waqqas have anything good going for him other than him being a Qurashi and his dad being famous?
Title: Re: Did Umar ibn Sa'ad withdraw from the Battle of Karbala?
Post by: Optimus Prime on March 10, 2015, 01:22:48 AM
Does `Umar ibn Sa`d ibn abi Waqqas have anything good going for him other than him being a Qurashi and his dad being famous?

Good question.
Title: Re: Did Umar ibn Sa'ad withdraw from the Battle of Karbala?
Post by: Furkan on March 10, 2015, 02:33:57 AM
And how did he die? (tauba ...)
Title: Re: Did Umar ibn Sa'ad withdraw from the Battle of Karbala?
Post by: Optimus Prime on March 10, 2015, 02:51:49 AM
And how did he die? (tauba ...)

How did he pass away?
Title: Re: Did Umar ibn Sa'ad withdraw from the Battle of Karbala?
Post by: Hani on March 10, 2015, 02:55:52 AM
This requires research but know this, there is NO WAY any of us can know what is inside anyone's heart, he may or may not have repented at any point, this is Ghayb.
Title: Re: Did Umar ibn Sa'ad withdraw from the Battle of Karbala?
Post by: Optimus Prime on March 10, 2015, 03:09:12 AM
This requires research but know this, there is NO WAY any of us can know what is inside anyone's heart, he may or may not have repented at any point, this is Ghayb.

True.