TwelverShia.net Forum

Poll

Do you make takfeer of 12er Shi'as?

Yes
1 (8.3%)
No
3 (25%)
Just their scholars
1 (8.3%)
Just their laymen
0 (0%)
Only those who meet a certain condition (please provide that condition in post)
7 (58.3%)

Total Members Voted: 12

Do you make takfeer of 12er Shi'as?

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Khaled

Do you make takfeer of 12er Shi'as?
« on: February 22, 2018, 11:48:14 PM »
السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته

I wanted to open up this poll to see how the various people that post on this view the 12ers.  Do you consider them kuffaar or not?  Or do you only make takfeer of people who meet a certain condition i.e. those who claim the Qur'an is muharraf, those who make takfeer of the Sahaba, those who accuse Ayesha رضي الله عنها of zina and things like that.
كلُّ سُلامى من الناس عليه صدقة كلَّ يوم تطلع فيه الشمس، تَعدلُ بين اثنين صدقة، وتعين الرَّجل في دابَّته فتحمله عليها أو ترفع له عليها متاعَه صدقة، والكلمةُ الطيِّبة صدقة، وبكلِّ خطوة تَمشيها إلى الصلاة صدقة، وتُميط الأذى عن الطريق صدقة

أبو ماريا المرزم

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Re: Do you make takfeer of 12er Shi'as?
« Reply #1 on: February 23, 2018, 04:06:53 AM »
I view the vast majority of 12ver Shias to be apostates, uninformed or well-learned

I hold that believing in Imamah constitutes disbelief in tawhid and the shahada, without being aware.
They asked how many will be with the one I hate. I said 313

Abu Muhammad

Re: Do you make takfeer of 12er Shi'as?
« Reply #2 on: February 23, 2018, 04:21:31 AM »
I voted for "with condition" and the condition is:

Narrated by Abu Huraira:
Allah's Apostle (may peace and blessings be upon him) said, "If a man says to his brother, O Kafir (disbeliever)!' Then surely one of them is such (i.e. a Kafir). "
(Sahih Bukhari: Volume 8, Book 73, Number 125)

It is reported on the authority of Ibn 'Umar that the Messenger of Allah (may peace and blessings be upon him) said: Any person who calls his brother: O Unbeliever! (then the truth of this label) would return to one of them. If it is true, (then it is) as he asserted, (but if it is not true), then it returns to him (and thus the person who made the accusation is an Unbeliever)
(Sahih Muslim: Book 001, Number 0117)

If what @Zlatan said in another thread is true (i.e. regardless usul al-deen or usul al-madzhab, Sunnis in reality are Kuffar according to Twelverism), then you know the answer from the above hadiths. No need for me to say anything.

muslim720

Re: Do you make takfeer of 12er Shi'as?
« Reply #3 on: February 23, 2018, 06:10:14 AM »
Salaam alaykum wa rahmatullah,

Great topic; I'm glad someone opened this thread.

I always viewed Shias, within the Islamic family, as the "younger sibling" who is a bit rebellious, perhaps adventurous.  I always thought they just wanted Imam Ali (ra) to be the first Caliph without the whole resentment toward those who became Caliphs before him, not to mention imposing Imamah upon the Qur'an, following scholars that narrated so much about tahreef but nothing to negate it (tahreef), etc.  Even within Ahlus Sunnah Wal Jama'ah if I'm not mistaken, there is a fringe opinion that Imam Ali (ra) should have been the successor of the Prophet (saw) so I always thought of it to be a benign belief.

Anyways, I had this innocent image of Shias, for the longest time, until I got to interact with them and learn some of their beliefs.  So I find it hard to shake off that image.  As such, I consider them Muslims and refuse to believe otherwise until one (or more) of them openly testifies to believe in tahreef, etc.  I will have to see and hear it first-hand to declare them kafir; in fact, I might give them a chance to retract their statement before proceeding with takfeer.  Well, even in the absence of their repentance, I'd find it hard to make takfeer.

Muslims, according to me; I have led them in prayer and even prayed behind them.

As for my selection, I clicked on "only those who meet a certain condition"....however, as I said, it would be very very very hard for me to make takfeer on them; even with utterance of clear kufr, I'd give them many chances to retract their statements and redeem themselves.

« Last Edit: February 23, 2018, 06:15:55 AM by muslim720 »
"Our coward ran from those in authority" - Iceman (admitting the truth regarding his 12th Imam)

MuslimAnswers

Re: Do you make takfeer of 12er Shi'as?
« Reply #4 on: February 23, 2018, 06:35:48 AM »
^

Quote
I wanted to open up this poll to see how the various people that post on this view the 12ers.  Do you consider them kuffaar or not?  Or do you only make takfeer of people who meet a certain condition i.e. those who claim the Qur'an is muharraf, those who make takfeer of the Sahaba, those who accuse Ayesha رضي الله عنها of zina and things like that.

This is a difficult poll even with the 'certain condition' option which is what was chosen, the reason is: The Ahl us Sunnah will make Takfir of whoever rejects something that is necessarily known of the Deen. This is generally avoided as much as possible since it has real consequences in this world and the next, but our Twelver colleagues seem to be pushing the boundaries on purpose to see when the technicalities run out.

We Sunnis should also remember there are certain beliefs, like their view of the superiority of their Imams over the Prophets, which are quite popular and entrenched, but when confronted they deny it and blame it as a "Wahaabi fabrication" - some may take it as posturing by the Twelvers and others may take it as ignorance. Also, the Sunnis should remember that the Twelvers don't put any weight at all on something 'necessarily known' of the religion, since they have basically built an alternate Universe within which theology, history, and legislation reveal themselves.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2018, 06:37:07 AM by MuslimAnswers »

Rationalist

Re: Do you make takfeer of 12er Shi'as?
« Reply #5 on: February 24, 2018, 09:01:06 AM »
Only those who believe the Quran is incomplete.

iceman

Re: Do you make takfeer of 12er Shi'as?
« Reply #6 on: February 24, 2018, 12:27:21 PM »
Nice replies. Why not start off with what is takfeer? What is the meaning and definition of takfeer and take it from there. And who has the certificate of approval to send takfeer.

Muhammad Tazin

Re: Do you make takfeer of 12er Shi'as?
« Reply #7 on: February 24, 2018, 12:57:38 PM »
Only those who think-
* Imamah is Fard, a fundamental thing of deen
* deniers of this belief(Imamah) will be in hell
* Sahaba became apostate by not establishing Imamah of Ali(ra.)
* Those who think Quran got distorted/ original copy is in the hand of Cave dweller 12th Imam
* Those who does shirk with their Imams, ex- some Shirazi scholar


iceman

Re: Do you make takfeer of 12er Shi'as?
« Reply #8 on: February 24, 2018, 03:47:42 PM »
What is the definition and meaning off takfeer and who has the right to send or issue it? Why are  we hesitant and shy to discuss what educates us.

iceman

Re: Do you make takfeer of 12er Shi'as?
« Reply #9 on: February 24, 2018, 03:55:22 PM »
People are putting fforward what they assume based on their thought, opinion and point of view. This is where things go wrong. Stick to Allah and his Messenger or back it up through them.

Abu Muhammad

Re: Do you make takfeer of 12er Shi'as?
« Reply #10 on: February 24, 2018, 06:29:54 PM »
Nice replies. Why not start off with what is takfeer? What is the meaning and definition of takfeer and take it from there. And who has the certificate of approval to send takfeer.

Open a new thread and discuss there. This thread is a poll.

iceman

Re: Do you make takfeer of 12er Shi'as?
« Reply #11 on: February 24, 2018, 11:28:19 PM »
Open a new thread and discuss there. This thread is a poll.

It doesn't bother me. Just making a point. opinion or polls don't mean anything if you don't even understand the basics.

Abu Muhammad

Re: Do you make takfeer of 12er Shi'as?
« Reply #12 on: February 25, 2018, 01:10:15 AM »
It doesn't bother me. Just making a point. opinion or polls don't mean anything if you don't even understand the basics.

When asked to open up another thread, he doesn't care less. TROLL, as usual.

iceman

Re: Do you make takfeer of 12er Shi'as?
« Reply #13 on: March 01, 2018, 02:00:03 AM »
When asked to open up another thread, he doesn't care less. TROLL, as usual.

Troll? Is that what you think? Well you certainly must have the experience. It takes one to know one. Don't look for excuses. If you can't answer then just admit it.

Abu Muhammad

Re: Do you make takfeer of 12er Shi'as?
« Reply #14 on: March 01, 2018, 06:46:46 PM »
Troll? Is that what you think? Well you certainly must have the experience. It takes one to know one. Don't look for excuses. If you can't answer then just admit it.

Instead of asking others to answer, why don't you start the discussion by giving the answer first to your below questions. I would like to see how "smart" your answer is, Mr Smart.

Nice replies. Why not start off with what is takfeer? What is the meaning and definition of takfeer and take it from there. And who has the certificate of approval to send takfeer.

muslim720

Re: Do you make takfeer of 12er Shi'as?
« Reply #15 on: March 01, 2018, 09:59:35 PM »
Instead of asking others to answer, why don't you start the discussion by giving the answer first to your below questions. I would like to see how "smart" your answer is, Mr Smart.

Don't hold your breath!  I have many positive experiences to share from my visits to Shia mosques (and I've a discussion topic for it) but this is one thing that irks me which, I believe, is a Shia problem.  You sit through their lectures and they mention some champion debater who renders tens of opponents helpless all by himself.  Most of the time, these debaters refute masses by just posing a question.  Therefore, our Shia brothers are programmed to debate like them.  Asking question after question is their crutch; it helps them move away from situations that just got unpleasant for them.

Otherwise, what business does our brother Iceman have to open his mouth when it is obvious that we do not make absolute takfeer on all Shias (quite apparent from the poll on this very discussion); we have conditions set, like belief in tahreef (which is monumental), etc.  This while Zlatan - and I commend him for his honesty - clearly said that all Sunnis will be dealt as unbelievers; it is just a matter of whether we are unbelievers in this world and the Hereafter or just the Hereafter.  Either way, we are all hell-bound.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2018, 10:03:26 PM by muslim720 »
"Our coward ran from those in authority" - Iceman (admitting the truth regarding his 12th Imam)

Abu Muhammad

Re: Do you make takfeer of 12er Shi'as?
« Reply #16 on: March 02, 2018, 01:32:49 AM »
Don't hold your breath!  I have many positive experiences to share from my visits to Shia mosques (and I've a discussion topic for it) but this is one thing that irks me which, I believe, is a Shia problem.  You sit through their lectures and they mention some champion debater who renders tens of opponents helpless all by himself.  Most of the time, these debaters refute masses by just posing a question.  Therefore, our Shia brothers are programmed to debate like them.  Asking question after question is their crutch; it helps them move away from situations that just got unpleasant for them.

I know. It is all evident from his posts in other threads. Questions after questions. That is why I'm asking him to start off the discussion by giving his take on his own questions.

Abu Muhammad

Re: Do you make takfeer of 12er Shi'as?
« Reply #17 on: March 04, 2018, 02:45:41 AM »
@iceman

*bump*

MuslimAnswers

Re: Do you make takfeer of 12er Shi'as?
« Reply #18 on: March 06, 2018, 09:43:32 PM »
You sit through their lectures and they mention some champion debater who renders tens of opponents helpless all by himself.  Most of the time, these debaters refute masses by just posing a question.  Therefore, our Shia brothers are programmed to debate like them.  Asking question after question is their crutch; it helps them move away from situations that just got unpleasant for them.

This is ironic, especially since we Sunnis can pose many core questions about 12er ideology once we become somewhat familiar with it, such as: "If we accept the Shia position of the rottenness of the Muslim Ummah in general, why should we accept anything conveyed by it about the 'Purity' of the Ahl ul Bayt? Going by the 12er reasoning it is obvious that no information can be taken from corrupt, pathological liars [i.e. the Sahabah, Tabieen, and so on], and there is no reason to engage in the logical fallacy of special pleading and apply it only for the 'Ahl ul Bayt'".

iceman

Re: Do you make takfeer of 12er Shi'as?
« Reply #19 on: March 13, 2018, 11:18:08 PM »
@iceman

*bump*

Yes your highness, your majesty, your honour, You called! What seems to be bothering you this time?

 

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