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Abdullah Ibn Saba The Jew: Truth or Real?

Truth
8 (88.9%)
Fake
1 (11.1%)

Total Members Voted: 9

Voting closed: April 25, 2017, 09:54:43 PM

First Poll Here - Abdullah Ibn Saba

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أبو ماريا المرزم

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First Poll Here - Abdullah Ibn Saba
« on: April 20, 2017, 09:54:43 PM »
...
« Last Edit: April 20, 2017, 11:23:43 PM by MuslimK »
They asked how many will be with the one I hate. I said 313

Zlatan Ibrahimovic

Re: First Poll Here
« Reply #1 on: April 20, 2017, 10:07:49 PM »
Is there a single sahih hadith in the Sunni hadith corpus which proves the Ibn Saba "starter of Shi'ism" tale to be true?
محور المقاومة والممانعة

Hani

عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

MuslimK

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Re: First Poll Here
« Reply #3 on: April 20, 2017, 11:23:11 PM »
Truth or Real?
در خلافت میل نیست ای بی‌خبر
میل کی آید ز بوبکر و عمر
میل اگر بودی در آن دو مقتدا
هر دو کردندی پسر را پیشوا

عطار نِیشابوری

www.Nahjul-Balagha.net | www.TwelverShia.net | www.ghadirkhumm.com

Hani

Re: First Poll Here - Abdullah Ibn Saba
« Reply #4 on: April 20, 2017, 11:26:45 PM »
LoL, I voted truth, I don't think he's real hehe.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Rationalist

Re: First Poll Here - Abdullah Ibn Saba
« Reply #5 on: April 21, 2017, 12:28:16 AM »
He is fictional.

zaid_ibn_ali

Re: First Poll Here - Abdullah Ibn Saba
« Reply #6 on: April 21, 2017, 12:52:40 AM »
He is fictional.

What makes you say that?

Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: First Poll Here
« Reply #7 on: April 21, 2017, 05:38:24 AM »
Is there a single sahih hadith in the Sunni hadith corpus which proves the Ibn Saba "starter of Shi'ism" tale to be true?

(i)– Amr bin Marzooq narrated to us, he said: Shu’ba told us, from Salama bin Kuhail from Zaid bin Wahb, he said: Ali said: What do I have to do with this black container? He meant: Abdullah bin Saba’ and he used to attack Abi Bakr and Umar. This is what Salama said, from Zaid bin Wahb.

(ii).– Muhammad bin Abbad Al-Makki said: Sufyan narrated to us, he said: Abd Al-Jabbar bin Abbas Al-Hamadani narrated to us, from Salama, from Hujayyah Al-Kindi, he said: I saw Ali on the pulpit saying: Who will excuse me from this black container that lies upon Allah! He meant: Ibn Al-Sawda’.( Al-Tareekh Al-Kabeer 3/177 ) ; {Online Source}

(iii). Abu Ishaq Al-Fazari narrated from Shu’bah from Salamah b. Kuhayl from Abu Al-Za’raa’ AND from Zayd b. Wahb that Suwayd b. Ghaflah entered upon Ali during his rule, and said, “I passed by a group who were mentioning Abu Bakr and Umar, claiming that you hold the same views towards them both. Among them was Abd Allah b. Saba, and he was the first to manifest that. So, Ali said, “What does this evil black man want from me?” Then he said, “I seek Allah’s refuge. My opinion of them both (i.e. Abu Bakr and Umar) is nothing but good and beautiful.” Then he sent a messenger to Abd Allah b. Saba and exiled him to al-Madain, and said, “He shall not live in the same town as me ever again.” Then he rushed to the pulpit and gathered the people, and delivered a long speech to praise them both (i.e. Abu Bakr and Umar). At its end, he said, “Verily, if it reaches me that anyone places me above them both, I will whip him with the whipping of a lying slanderer.”(Lisan al-Mizan of Hafiz ibn Hajar Asqalani, vol 3, page 290, #1225).


We find two of the earliest and most reliable Shia historians – Al-Hasan bin Musa Al-Nawbakhti and Sa’ad bin `Abdullah Al-Qummi. Together, they describe the formation of the Saba’ee sect (the followers of Ibn Saba’) :

“A group of scholars from the companions of Ali (alaihi alsalam) said that Abdullah bin Saba was a Jew, who converted to Islam, and befriended Ali (alaihi alsalam), and he used to say, as a Jew that Yusha’ bin Noon is after Musa (alaihi alsalam) with this view, and so he said in Islam after the death of the Prophet (salallahu alaihi wa aalih) about Ali the same (belief). He was the first to say that it is mandatory that Ali (alaihi alsalam) was the Imam, and the first to disassociate from his enemies, and he made takfeer of them. It is in this light that those there were against the Shias said: The origins of Rafdh are taken from Judaism.” (Firaq Al-Shia .p. 32)

It is sufficient for Ahl Al-Sunnah to simply establish the existence of the man, who wasn’t from Ahl Al-Bayt, that had views that evolved into modern day Shiasm. Refer to Firaq Al-Shia by the top Shia classical historians Sa’ad Al-Ash’ari and Al-Nawbakhti. They have stated clearly that there is a sect called the Saba’ee sect and that they are the followers of Ibn Saba’. They also include that they are the first exaggerators, and that Ibn Saba’ used to curse Abu Bakr and `Umar, believe in Raja’ah, believed in Imamah, and was originally a Jew.

Zlatan Ibrahimovic

Re: First Poll Here
« Reply #8 on: April 21, 2017, 07:32:03 AM »
Is there a single sahih hadith in the Sunni hadith corpus which proves the Ibn Saba "starter of Shi'ism" tale to be true?

(i)– Amr bin Marzooq narrated to us, he said: Shu’ba told us, from Salama bin Kuhail from Zaid bin Wahb, he said: Ali said: What do I have to do with this black container? He meant: Abdullah bin Saba’ and he used to attack Abi Bakr and Umar. This is what Salama said, from Zaid bin Wahb.

(ii).– Muhammad bin Abbad Al-Makki said: Sufyan narrated to us, he said: Abd Al-Jabbar bin Abbas Al-Hamadani narrated to us, from Salama, from Hujayyah Al-Kindi, he said: I saw Ali on the pulpit saying: Who will excuse me from this black container that lies upon Allah! He meant: Ibn Al-Sawda’.( Al-Tareekh Al-Kabeer 3/177 ) ; {Online Source}

(iii). Abu Ishaq Al-Fazari narrated from Shu’bah from Salamah b. Kuhayl from Abu Al-Za’raa’ AND from Zayd b. Wahb that Suwayd b. Ghaflah entered upon Ali during his rule, and said, “I passed by a group who were mentioning Abu Bakr and Umar, claiming that you hold the same views towards them both. Among them was Abd Allah b. Saba, and he was the first to manifest that. So, Ali said, “What does this evil black man want from me?” Then he said, “I seek Allah’s refuge. My opinion of them both (i.e. Abu Bakr and Umar) is nothing but good and beautiful.” Then he sent a messenger to Abd Allah b. Saba and exiled him to al-Madain, and said, “He shall not live in the same town as me ever again.” Then he rushed to the pulpit and gathered the people, and delivered a long speech to praise them both (i.e. Abu Bakr and Umar). At its end, he said, “Verily, if it reaches me that anyone places me above them both, I will whip him with the whipping of a lying slanderer.”(Lisan al-Mizan of Hafiz ibn Hajar Asqalani, vol 3, page 290, #1225).


We find two of the earliest and most reliable Shia historians – Al-Hasan bin Musa Al-Nawbakhti and Sa’ad bin `Abdullah Al-Qummi. Together, they describe the formation of the Saba’ee sect (the followers of Ibn Saba’) :

“A group of scholars from the companions of Ali (alaihi alsalam) said that Abdullah bin Saba was a Jew, who converted to Islam, and befriended Ali (alaihi alsalam), and he used to say, as a Jew that Yusha’ bin Noon is after Musa (alaihi alsalam) with this view, and so he said in Islam after the death of the Prophet (salallahu alaihi wa aalih) about Ali the same (belief). He was the first to say that it is mandatory that Ali (alaihi alsalam) was the Imam, and the first to disassociate from his enemies, and he made takfeer of them. It is in this light that those there were against the Shias said: The origins of Rafdh are taken from Judaism.” (Firaq Al-Shia .p. 32)

It is sufficient for Ahl Al-Sunnah to simply establish the existence of the man, who wasn’t from Ahl Al-Bayt, that had views that evolved into modern day Shiasm. Refer to Firaq Al-Shia by the top Shia classical historians Sa’ad Al-Ash’ari and Al-Nawbakhti. They have stated clearly that there is a sect called the Saba’ee sect and that they are the followers of Ibn Saba’. They also include that they are the first exaggerators, and that Ibn Saba’ used to curse Abu Bakr and `Umar, believe in Raja’ah, believed in Imamah, and was originally a Jew.

Are any of the aforementioned hadiths sahih?

As for what Al-Nawbakhti (rah) said, there seems to be a difference as far as I can remember over whether Firaq Al-Shi'a is really his book. But even if we say that is true, he is simply saying there was a sect called Saba'ism. If you refer to our hadiths in Rijal Al-Kashi for the matter, they imply Ibn Saba was an exaggerator. Overall I still doubt his existence, based on what Sayyed Al-Khoei and Sayyed Al-Askari have said.
محور المقاومة والممانعة

Hani

Re: First Poll Here - Abdullah Ibn Saba
« Reply #9 on: April 21, 2017, 02:53:01 PM »
It's two books, one by Nawbakhti one by Qummi, both are pretty much reliable according to Shia. The two are very similar and Shia scholars usually quote from them and praise them as early works.

As for authentic narrations, check the first link I posted. Our book proves he was real and he had a sect of exaggerators.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: First Poll Here
« Reply #10 on: April 21, 2017, 05:52:33 PM »
Is there a single sahih hadith in the Sunni hadith corpus which proves the Ibn Saba "starter of Shi'ism" tale to be true?

(i)– Amr bin Marzooq narrated to us, he said: Shu’ba told us, from Salama bin Kuhail from Zaid bin Wahb, he said: Ali said: What do I have to do with this black container? He meant: Abdullah bin Saba’ and he used to attack Abi Bakr and Umar. This is what Salama said, from Zaid bin Wahb.

(ii).– Muhammad bin Abbad Al-Makki said: Sufyan narrated to us, he said: Abd Al-Jabbar bin Abbas Al-Hamadani narrated to us, from Salama, from Hujayyah Al-Kindi, he said: I saw Ali on the pulpit saying: Who will excuse me from this black container that lies upon Allah! He meant: Ibn Al-Sawda’.( Al-Tareekh Al-Kabeer 3/177 ) ; {Online Source}

(iii). Abu Ishaq Al-Fazari narrated from Shu’bah from Salamah b. Kuhayl from Abu Al-Za’raa’ AND from Zayd b. Wahb that Suwayd b. Ghaflah entered upon Ali during his rule, and said, “I passed by a group who were mentioning Abu Bakr and Umar, claiming that you hold the same views towards them both. Among them was Abd Allah b. Saba, and he was the first to manifest that. So, Ali said, “What does this evil black man want from me?” Then he said, “I seek Allah’s refuge. My opinion of them both (i.e. Abu Bakr and Umar) is nothing but good and beautiful.” Then he sent a messenger to Abd Allah b. Saba and exiled him to al-Madain, and said, “He shall not live in the same town as me ever again.” Then he rushed to the pulpit and gathered the people, and delivered a long speech to praise them both (i.e. Abu Bakr and Umar). At its end, he said, “Verily, if it reaches me that anyone places me above them both, I will whip him with the whipping of a lying slanderer.”(Lisan al-Mizan of Hafiz ibn Hajar Asqalani, vol 3, page 290, #1225).


We find two of the earliest and most reliable Shia historians – Al-Hasan bin Musa Al-Nawbakhti and Sa’ad bin `Abdullah Al-Qummi. Together, they describe the formation of the Saba’ee sect (the followers of Ibn Saba’) :

“A group of scholars from the companions of Ali (alaihi alsalam) said that Abdullah bin Saba was a Jew, who converted to Islam, and befriended Ali (alaihi alsalam), and he used to say, as a Jew that Yusha’ bin Noon is after Musa (alaihi alsalam) with this view, and so he said in Islam after the death of the Prophet (salallahu alaihi wa aalih) about Ali the same (belief). He was the first to say that it is mandatory that Ali (alaihi alsalam) was the Imam, and the first to disassociate from his enemies, and he made takfeer of them. It is in this light that those there were against the Shias said: The origins of Rafdh are taken from Judaism.” (Firaq Al-Shia .p. 32)

It is sufficient for Ahl Al-Sunnah to simply establish the existence of the man, who wasn’t from Ahl Al-Bayt, that had views that evolved into modern day Shiasm. Refer to Firaq Al-Shia by the top Shia classical historians Sa’ad Al-Ash’ari and Al-Nawbakhti. They have stated clearly that there is a sect called the Saba’ee sect and that they are the followers of Ibn Saba’. They also include that they are the first exaggerators, and that Ibn Saba’ used to curse Abu Bakr and `Umar, believe in Raja’ah, believed in Imamah, and was originally a Jew.

Are any of the aforementioned hadiths sahih?
They are atleast Hasan.

Quote
If you refer to our hadiths in Rijal Al-Kashi for the matter, they imply Ibn Saba was an exaggerator. Overall I still doubt his existence, based on what Sayyed Al-Khoei and Sayyed Al-Askari have said.
Their view was destroyed and proven to be incompetent if you refer the hadeeths above.

Zlatan Ibrahimovic

Re: First Poll Here
« Reply #11 on: April 21, 2017, 05:54:00 PM »
Is there a single sahih hadith in the Sunni hadith corpus which proves the Ibn Saba "starter of Shi'ism" tale to be true?

(i)– Amr bin Marzooq narrated to us, he said: Shu’ba told us, from Salama bin Kuhail from Zaid bin Wahb, he said: Ali said: What do I have to do with this black container? He meant: Abdullah bin Saba’ and he used to attack Abi Bakr and Umar. This is what Salama said, from Zaid bin Wahb.

(ii).– Muhammad bin Abbad Al-Makki said: Sufyan narrated to us, he said: Abd Al-Jabbar bin Abbas Al-Hamadani narrated to us, from Salama, from Hujayyah Al-Kindi, he said: I saw Ali on the pulpit saying: Who will excuse me from this black container that lies upon Allah! He meant: Ibn Al-Sawda’.( Al-Tareekh Al-Kabeer 3/177 ) ; {Online Source}

(iii). Abu Ishaq Al-Fazari narrated from Shu’bah from Salamah b. Kuhayl from Abu Al-Za’raa’ AND from Zayd b. Wahb that Suwayd b. Ghaflah entered upon Ali during his rule, and said, “I passed by a group who were mentioning Abu Bakr and Umar, claiming that you hold the same views towards them both. Among them was Abd Allah b. Saba, and he was the first to manifest that. So, Ali said, “What does this evil black man want from me?” Then he said, “I seek Allah’s refuge. My opinion of them both (i.e. Abu Bakr and Umar) is nothing but good and beautiful.” Then he sent a messenger to Abd Allah b. Saba and exiled him to al-Madain, and said, “He shall not live in the same town as me ever again.” Then he rushed to the pulpit and gathered the people, and delivered a long speech to praise them both (i.e. Abu Bakr and Umar). At its end, he said, “Verily, if it reaches me that anyone places me above them both, I will whip him with the whipping of a lying slanderer.”(Lisan al-Mizan of Hafiz ibn Hajar Asqalani, vol 3, page 290, #1225).


We find two of the earliest and most reliable Shia historians – Al-Hasan bin Musa Al-Nawbakhti and Sa’ad bin `Abdullah Al-Qummi. Together, they describe the formation of the Saba’ee sect (the followers of Ibn Saba’) :

“A group of scholars from the companions of Ali (alaihi alsalam) said that Abdullah bin Saba was a Jew, who converted to Islam, and befriended Ali (alaihi alsalam), and he used to say, as a Jew that Yusha’ bin Noon is after Musa (alaihi alsalam) with this view, and so he said in Islam after the death of the Prophet (salallahu alaihi wa aalih) about Ali the same (belief). He was the first to say that it is mandatory that Ali (alaihi alsalam) was the Imam, and the first to disassociate from his enemies, and he made takfeer of them. It is in this light that those there were against the Shias said: The origins of Rafdh are taken from Judaism.” (Firaq Al-Shia .p. 32)

It is sufficient for Ahl Al-Sunnah to simply establish the existence of the man, who wasn’t from Ahl Al-Bayt, that had views that evolved into modern day Shiasm. Refer to Firaq Al-Shia by the top Shia classical historians Sa’ad Al-Ash’ari and Al-Nawbakhti. They have stated clearly that there is a sect called the Saba’ee sect and that they are the followers of Ibn Saba’. They also include that they are the first exaggerators, and that Ibn Saba’ used to curse Abu Bakr and `Umar, believe in Raja’ah, believed in Imamah, and was originally a Jew.

Are any of the aforementioned hadiths sahih?
They are atleast Hasan.

Quote
If you refer to our hadiths in Rijal Al-Kashi for the matter, they imply Ibn Saba was an exaggerator. Overall I still doubt his existence, based on what Sayyed Al-Khoei and Sayyed Al-Askari have said.
Their view was destroyed and proven to be incompetent if you refer the hadeeths above.

The hadiths above are Sunni hadiths. As for the hadiths in Al-Kashi, Sayyed Al-Khoei mentioned them in his Mu'jam ans still denied Ibn Saba's existence.
محور المقاومة والممانعة

Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: First Poll Here
« Reply #12 on: April 21, 2017, 06:16:42 PM »
Is there a single sahih hadith in the Sunni hadith corpus which proves the Ibn Saba "starter of Shi'ism" tale to be true?

(i)– Amr bin Marzooq narrated to us, he said: Shu’ba told us, from Salama bin Kuhail from Zaid bin Wahb, he said: Ali said: What do I have to do with this black container? He meant: Abdullah bin Saba’ and he used to attack Abi Bakr and Umar. This is what Salama said, from Zaid bin Wahb.

(ii).– Muhammad bin Abbad Al-Makki said: Sufyan narrated to us, he said: Abd Al-Jabbar bin Abbas Al-Hamadani narrated to us, from Salama, from Hujayyah Al-Kindi, he said: I saw Ali on the pulpit saying: Who will excuse me from this black container that lies upon Allah! He meant: Ibn Al-Sawda’.( Al-Tareekh Al-Kabeer 3/177 ) ; {Online Source}

(iii). Abu Ishaq Al-Fazari narrated from Shu’bah from Salamah b. Kuhayl from Abu Al-Za’raa’ AND from Zayd b. Wahb that Suwayd b. Ghaflah entered upon Ali during his rule, and said, “I passed by a group who were mentioning Abu Bakr and Umar, claiming that you hold the same views towards them both. Among them was Abd Allah b. Saba, and he was the first to manifest that. So, Ali said, “What does this evil black man want from me?” Then he said, “I seek Allah’s refuge. My opinion of them both (i.e. Abu Bakr and Umar) is nothing but good and beautiful.” Then he sent a messenger to Abd Allah b. Saba and exiled him to al-Madain, and said, “He shall not live in the same town as me ever again.” Then he rushed to the pulpit and gathered the people, and delivered a long speech to praise them both (i.e. Abu Bakr and Umar). At its end, he said, “Verily, if it reaches me that anyone places me above them both, I will whip him with the whipping of a lying slanderer.”(Lisan al-Mizan of Hafiz ibn Hajar Asqalani, vol 3, page 290, #1225).


We find two of the earliest and most reliable Shia historians – Al-Hasan bin Musa Al-Nawbakhti and Sa’ad bin `Abdullah Al-Qummi. Together, they describe the formation of the Saba’ee sect (the followers of Ibn Saba’) :

“A group of scholars from the companions of Ali (alaihi alsalam) said that Abdullah bin Saba was a Jew, who converted to Islam, and befriended Ali (alaihi alsalam), and he used to say, as a Jew that Yusha’ bin Noon is after Musa (alaihi alsalam) with this view, and so he said in Islam after the death of the Prophet (salallahu alaihi wa aalih) about Ali the same (belief). He was the first to say that it is mandatory that Ali (alaihi alsalam) was the Imam, and the first to disassociate from his enemies, and he made takfeer of them. It is in this light that those there were against the Shias said: The origins of Rafdh are taken from Judaism.” (Firaq Al-Shia .p. 32)

It is sufficient for Ahl Al-Sunnah to simply establish the existence of the man, who wasn’t from Ahl Al-Bayt, that had views that evolved into modern day Shiasm. Refer to Firaq Al-Shia by the top Shia classical historians Sa’ad Al-Ash’ari and Al-Nawbakhti. They have stated clearly that there is a sect called the Saba’ee sect and that they are the followers of Ibn Saba’. They also include that they are the first exaggerators, and that Ibn Saba’ used to curse Abu Bakr and `Umar, believe in Raja’ah, believed in Imamah, and was originally a Jew.

Are any of the aforementioned hadiths sahih?
They are atleast Hasan.

Quote
If you refer to our hadiths in Rijal Al-Kashi for the matter, they imply Ibn Saba was an exaggerator. Overall I still doubt his existence, based on what Sayyed Al-Khoei and Sayyed Al-Askari have said.
Their view was destroyed and proven to be incompetent if you refer the hadeeths above.

The hadiths above are Sunni hadiths. As for the hadiths in Al-Kashi, Sayyed Al-Khoei mentioned them in his Mu'jam ans still denied Ibn Saba's existence.
This is unacademic approach, and following desires. A scholar should be unbiased and honest atleast to admit the existence of a personality, where in they find their own authentic hadeeth, Sunni authentic hadeeth, statements from the first three generations and from both early Sunni and Shia historians mentioning the existence of this person.

Infact, the existence of the Saba’ee sect is accepted by late Shia scholars like Mohammad Zaid Al-Deen Al-Amili in his book Al-Shia fil Tareekh. See pages 38-39 (second edition):

However it may be, Ibn Saba definitely existed and manifested ghuluww (extremism), even though some people doubt his existence and made him out to be an imaginary character created by personal interests. As for us, on grounds of the latest research we have no doubt concerning his existence and his extremism… Yes, Ibn Saba exhibited extremism in his religion. This innovation of his seeped into the thinking of a group that was by no means small, and that group was named after him. [Al-Shia fil Tareekh, pages 38-39]


And if you still disagree I leave you with a thought provoking question: Who was the earliest Shia scholar who denied the existence of Ibn Saba ?
« Last Edit: April 21, 2017, 06:20:27 PM by Noor-us-Sunnah »

Zlatan Ibrahimovic

Re: First Poll Here
« Reply #13 on: April 21, 2017, 06:29:56 PM »
Is there a single sahih hadith in the Sunni hadith corpus which proves the Ibn Saba "starter of Shi'ism" tale to be true?

(i)– Amr bin Marzooq narrated to us, he said: Shu’ba told us, from Salama bin Kuhail from Zaid bin Wahb, he said: Ali said: What do I have to do with this black container? He meant: Abdullah bin Saba’ and he used to attack Abi Bakr and Umar. This is what Salama said, from Zaid bin Wahb.

(ii).– Muhammad bin Abbad Al-Makki said: Sufyan narrated to us, he said: Abd Al-Jabbar bin Abbas Al-Hamadani narrated to us, from Salama, from Hujayyah Al-Kindi, he said: I saw Ali on the pulpit saying: Who will excuse me from this black container that lies upon Allah! He meant: Ibn Al-Sawda’.( Al-Tareekh Al-Kabeer 3/177 ) ; {Online Source}

(iii). Abu Ishaq Al-Fazari narrated from Shu’bah from Salamah b. Kuhayl from Abu Al-Za’raa’ AND from Zayd b. Wahb that Suwayd b. Ghaflah entered upon Ali during his rule, and said, “I passed by a group who were mentioning Abu Bakr and Umar, claiming that you hold the same views towards them both. Among them was Abd Allah b. Saba, and he was the first to manifest that. So, Ali said, “What does this evil black man want from me?” Then he said, “I seek Allah’s refuge. My opinion of them both (i.e. Abu Bakr and Umar) is nothing but good and beautiful.” Then he sent a messenger to Abd Allah b. Saba and exiled him to al-Madain, and said, “He shall not live in the same town as me ever again.” Then he rushed to the pulpit and gathered the people, and delivered a long speech to praise them both (i.e. Abu Bakr and Umar). At its end, he said, “Verily, if it reaches me that anyone places me above them both, I will whip him with the whipping of a lying slanderer.”(Lisan al-Mizan of Hafiz ibn Hajar Asqalani, vol 3, page 290, #1225).


We find two of the earliest and most reliable Shia historians – Al-Hasan bin Musa Al-Nawbakhti and Sa’ad bin `Abdullah Al-Qummi. Together, they describe the formation of the Saba’ee sect (the followers of Ibn Saba’) :

“A group of scholars from the companions of Ali (alaihi alsalam) said that Abdullah bin Saba was a Jew, who converted to Islam, and befriended Ali (alaihi alsalam), and he used to say, as a Jew that Yusha’ bin Noon is after Musa (alaihi alsalam) with this view, and so he said in Islam after the death of the Prophet (salallahu alaihi wa aalih) about Ali the same (belief). He was the first to say that it is mandatory that Ali (alaihi alsalam) was the Imam, and the first to disassociate from his enemies, and he made takfeer of them. It is in this light that those there were against the Shias said: The origins of Rafdh are taken from Judaism.” (Firaq Al-Shia .p. 32)

It is sufficient for Ahl Al-Sunnah to simply establish the existence of the man, who wasn’t from Ahl Al-Bayt, that had views that evolved into modern day Shiasm. Refer to Firaq Al-Shia by the top Shia classical historians Sa’ad Al-Ash’ari and Al-Nawbakhti. They have stated clearly that there is a sect called the Saba’ee sect and that they are the followers of Ibn Saba’. They also include that they are the first exaggerators, and that Ibn Saba’ used to curse Abu Bakr and `Umar, believe in Raja’ah, believed in Imamah, and was originally a Jew.

Are any of the aforementioned hadiths sahih?
They are atleast Hasan.

Quote
If you refer to our hadiths in Rijal Al-Kashi for the matter, they imply Ibn Saba was an exaggerator. Overall I still doubt his existence, based on what Sayyed Al-Khoei and Sayyed Al-Askari have said.
Their view was destroyed and proven to be incompetent if you refer the hadeeths above.

The hadiths above are Sunni hadiths. As for the hadiths in Al-Kashi, Sayyed Al-Khoei mentioned them in his Mu'jam ans still denied Ibn Saba's existence.
This is unacademic approach, and following desires. A scholar should be unbiased and honest atleast to admit the existence of a personality, where in they find their own authentic hadeeth, Sunni authentic hadeeth, statements from the first three generations and from both early Sunni and Shia historians mentioning the existence of this person.

Infact, the existence of the Saba’ee sect is accepted by late Shia scholars like Mohammad Zaid Al-Deen Al-Amili in his book Al-Shia fil Tareekh. See pages 38-39 (second edition):

However it may be, Ibn Saba definitely existed and manifested ghuluww (extremism), even though some people doubt his existence and made him out to be an imaginary character created by personal interests. As for us, on grounds of the latest research we have no doubt concerning his existence and his extremism… Yes, Ibn Saba exhibited extremism in his religion. This innovation of his seeped into the thinking of a group that was by no means small, and that group was named after him. [Al-Shia fil Tareekh, pages 38-39]


And if you still disagree I leave you with a thought provoking question: Who was the earliest Shia scholar who denied the existence of Ibn Saba ?

I never denied his existence. I doubt his existence. I also doubt Sayyed Al-Khoei denied Ibn Saba's existence out of whim, I will check Al-Mu'jam to see what he says.
محور المقاومة والممانعة

Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: First Poll Here
« Reply #14 on: April 21, 2017, 06:43:33 PM »
Is there a single sahih hadith in the Sunni hadith corpus which proves the Ibn Saba "starter of Shi'ism" tale to be true?

(i)– Amr bin Marzooq narrated to us, he said: Shu’ba told us, from Salama bin Kuhail from Zaid bin Wahb, he said: Ali said: What do I have to do with this black container? He meant: Abdullah bin Saba’ and he used to attack Abi Bakr and Umar. This is what Salama said, from Zaid bin Wahb.

(ii).– Muhammad bin Abbad Al-Makki said: Sufyan narrated to us, he said: Abd Al-Jabbar bin Abbas Al-Hamadani narrated to us, from Salama, from Hujayyah Al-Kindi, he said: I saw Ali on the pulpit saying: Who will excuse me from this black container that lies upon Allah! He meant: Ibn Al-Sawda’.( Al-Tareekh Al-Kabeer 3/177 ) ; {Online Source}

(iii). Abu Ishaq Al-Fazari narrated from Shu’bah from Salamah b. Kuhayl from Abu Al-Za’raa’ AND from Zayd b. Wahb that Suwayd b. Ghaflah entered upon Ali during his rule, and said, “I passed by a group who were mentioning Abu Bakr and Umar, claiming that you hold the same views towards them both. Among them was Abd Allah b. Saba, and he was the first to manifest that. So, Ali said, “What does this evil black man want from me?” Then he said, “I seek Allah’s refuge. My opinion of them both (i.e. Abu Bakr and Umar) is nothing but good and beautiful.” Then he sent a messenger to Abd Allah b. Saba and exiled him to al-Madain, and said, “He shall not live in the same town as me ever again.” Then he rushed to the pulpit and gathered the people, and delivered a long speech to praise them both (i.e. Abu Bakr and Umar). At its end, he said, “Verily, if it reaches me that anyone places me above them both, I will whip him with the whipping of a lying slanderer.”(Lisan al-Mizan of Hafiz ibn Hajar Asqalani, vol 3, page 290, #1225).


We find two of the earliest and most reliable Shia historians – Al-Hasan bin Musa Al-Nawbakhti and Sa’ad bin `Abdullah Al-Qummi. Together, they describe the formation of the Saba’ee sect (the followers of Ibn Saba’) :

“A group of scholars from the companions of Ali (alaihi alsalam) said that Abdullah bin Saba was a Jew, who converted to Islam, and befriended Ali (alaihi alsalam), and he used to say, as a Jew that Yusha’ bin Noon is after Musa (alaihi alsalam) with this view, and so he said in Islam after the death of the Prophet (salallahu alaihi wa aalih) about Ali the same (belief). He was the first to say that it is mandatory that Ali (alaihi alsalam) was the Imam, and the first to disassociate from his enemies, and he made takfeer of them. It is in this light that those there were against the Shias said: The origins of Rafdh are taken from Judaism.” (Firaq Al-Shia .p. 32)

It is sufficient for Ahl Al-Sunnah to simply establish the existence of the man, who wasn’t from Ahl Al-Bayt, that had views that evolved into modern day Shiasm. Refer to Firaq Al-Shia by the top Shia classical historians Sa’ad Al-Ash’ari and Al-Nawbakhti. They have stated clearly that there is a sect called the Saba’ee sect and that they are the followers of Ibn Saba’. They also include that they are the first exaggerators, and that Ibn Saba’ used to curse Abu Bakr and `Umar, believe in Raja’ah, believed in Imamah, and was originally a Jew.

Are any of the aforementioned hadiths sahih?
They are atleast Hasan.

Quote
If you refer to our hadiths in Rijal Al-Kashi for the matter, they imply Ibn Saba was an exaggerator. Overall I still doubt his existence, based on what Sayyed Al-Khoei and Sayyed Al-Askari have said.
Their view was destroyed and proven to be incompetent if you refer the hadeeths above.

The hadiths above are Sunni hadiths. As for the hadiths in Al-Kashi, Sayyed Al-Khoei mentioned them in his Mu'jam ans still denied Ibn Saba's existence.
This is unacademic approach, and following desires. A scholar should be unbiased and honest atleast to admit the existence of a personality, where in they find their own authentic hadeeth, Sunni authentic hadeeth, statements from the first three generations and from both early Sunni and Shia historians mentioning the existence of this person.

Infact, the existence of the Saba’ee sect is accepted by late Shia scholars like Mohammad Zaid Al-Deen Al-Amili in his book Al-Shia fil Tareekh. See pages 38-39 (second edition):

However it may be, Ibn Saba definitely existed and manifested ghuluww (extremism), even though some people doubt his existence and made him out to be an imaginary character created by personal interests. As for us, on grounds of the latest research we have no doubt concerning his existence and his extremism… Yes, Ibn Saba exhibited extremism in his religion. This innovation of his seeped into the thinking of a group that was by no means small, and that group was named after him. [Al-Shia fil Tareekh, pages 38-39]


And if you still disagree I leave you with a thought provoking question: Who was the earliest Shia scholar who denied the existence of Ibn Saba ?

I never denied his existence. I doubt his existence. I also doubt Sayyed Al-Khoei denied Ibn Saba's existence out of whim, I will check Al-Mu'jam to see what he says.
Good.  Meanwhile please try to answer my question:

Who was the earliest Shia scholar who denied the existence of Ibn Saba ?

Hani

Re: First Poll Here - Abdullah Ibn Saba
« Reply #15 on: April 21, 2017, 08:11:43 PM »
Interestingly, there's a lot more evidence for the existence of Ibn Saba' than there is for many of Husayn's companions, Sulaym bin Qays and dare I say one more person.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

 

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