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Ghadir Khumm context response

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Soccer

Re: Ghadir Khumm context response
« Reply #20 on: May 31, 2020, 11:03:50 PM »
LOL... does that statement of yours above conjectural too?

Please tell me what system that 12ver Shi'ism use then that is conjecture-free. I would love to know.

With all the viral news spreading nowadays, the advice that you consistently get is always verify the source of that news. Don't straightaway believe in it even though it makes sense to you.

That's what isnad is trying to achieve. A system with the aim to differentiate between reliable and unreliable information based on the source of information. That isn't that hard to grasp.

In version of Sahih Muslim clearly says the family of Jaafar, Aqil, etc are part of Ahlul Bayt and you conveniently exclude them. Why?

Your problem is you don't pay attention to Quran. Mohammad (s) and Ali (a) were neither Sunni or Shiite or Muslim for that matter, they submitted to God's guidance doesn't imply any of these.

Groups when forming groups, are bound to be astray in some regards while right in somethings. And how can it not be, when knowledge is layered, and God says to Mohammad (s) to say "increase me in knowledge".

It's better to avoid dividing from other humans and just testify to who you believe, but without splitting and dividing for other humans by sectarian titles including the title Muslim which further divide into sectarianism to claim.

Isnad may try to achieve that, but with the divisions and sectarian biases, and oppression towards the people and political situation, it failed.

It wasn't robust enough as we see many authentic hadiths contradict Quran.



« Last Edit: May 31, 2020, 11:12:01 PM by Soccer »
"Is it so bad, then, to be misunderstood? Pythagoras was misunderstood, and Socrates, and Jesus, and Luther, and Copernicus, and Galileo, and Newton, and every pure and wise spirit that ever took flesh. To be great is to be misunderstood.” ― Ralph Waldo Emerson, Self-Reliance

Soccer

Re: Ghadir Khumm context response
« Reply #21 on: May 31, 2020, 11:08:05 PM »

In version of Sahih Muslim clearly says the family of Jaafar, Aqil, etc are part of Ahlul Bayt and you conveniently exclude them. Why?

Because when looking all the hadiths together including them not separating, and then looking into Quran, we find thaqalayn is God's guidance in the past, albeit with different books and different chosen houses, but never the less, these chosen families were united with the scriptures they brought, you couldn't separate. And then you find verses which talk about the family of Mohammad like verse 42:23.

We find this emphasized so much in Quran, that you can't see a different meaning to what Prophet (s) said at Ghadeer.  Thaqalayn is a repeated theme in Quran.

But due to the sorcery - people might become heedless, as did bani-Israel when they thought no trial would occur and became blind as a result.

Hadith thaqalayn is a means of giving insight to Quran and is confirmed through it's pages. No one has an excuse to become blind to this in Quran after hearing these words from the Prophet (s).

"Is it so bad, then, to be misunderstood? Pythagoras was misunderstood, and Socrates, and Jesus, and Luther, and Copernicus, and Galileo, and Newton, and every pure and wise spirit that ever took flesh. To be great is to be misunderstood.” ― Ralph Waldo Emerson, Self-Reliance

Abu Muhammad

Re: Ghadir Khumm context response
« Reply #22 on: June 02, 2020, 03:53:17 PM »
Your problem is you don't pay attention to Quran. Mohammad (s) and Ali (a) were neither Sunni or Shiite or Muslim for that matter, they submitted to God's guidance doesn't imply any of these.

Groups when forming groups, are bound to be astray in some regards while right in somethings. And how can it not be, when knowledge is layered, and God says to Mohammad (s) to say "increase me in knowledge".

It's better to avoid dividing from other humans and just testify to who you believe, but without splitting and dividing for other humans by sectarian titles including the title Muslim which further divide into sectarianism to claim.

Isnad may try to achieve that, but with the divisions and sectarian biases, and oppression towards the people and political situation, it failed.

It wasn't robust enough as we see many authentic hadiths contradict Quran.

Going round and around without answering. Typical Link!

I repeat: tell me what system or method that 12ver Shi'ism used that is conjecture-free? I would love to know.

Abu Muhammad

Re: Ghadir Khumm context response
« Reply #23 on: June 02, 2020, 03:55:01 PM »
Because when looking all the hadiths together including them not separating, and then looking into Quran, we find thaqalayn is God's guidance in the past, albeit with different books and different chosen houses, but never the less, these chosen families were united with the scriptures they brought, you couldn't separate. And then you find verses which talk about the family of Mohammad like verse 42:23.

We find this emphasized so much in Quran, that you can't see a different meaning to what Prophet (s) said at Ghadeer.  Thaqalayn is a repeated theme in Quran.

But due to the sorcery - people might become heedless, as did bani-Israel when they thought no trial would occur and became blind as a result.

Hadith thaqalayn is a means of giving insight to Quran and is confirmed through it's pages. No one has an excuse to become blind to this in Quran after hearing these words from the Prophet (s).

Same here. Going round and around without answering.

I repeat: In version of Sahih Muslim clearly says the family of Jaafar, Aqil, etc are part of Ahlul Bayt and you conveniently exclude them. Why?

Abu Muhammad

Re: Ghadir Khumm context response
« Reply #24 on: June 02, 2020, 04:00:36 PM »
Since Soccer is Link, I am upping that thread for Soccer again

Thank you brother. I didn't realized that was him even though the style of writing is quite familiar to me. Start to feel that I'm wasting my time here... LOL.

Maybe I need to stop talking to him. He is the man with his own "madzhab". Everybody is in the wrong except, of course, him alone.

Soccer

Re: Ghadir Khumm context response
« Reply #25 on: June 02, 2020, 08:50:18 PM »
Going round and around without answering. Typical Link!

I repeat: tell me what system or method that 12ver Shi'ism used that is conjecture-free? I would love to know.

If you had any comprehension, you will see, that I said they have none.
"Is it so bad, then, to be misunderstood? Pythagoras was misunderstood, and Socrates, and Jesus, and Luther, and Copernicus, and Galileo, and Newton, and every pure and wise spirit that ever took flesh. To be great is to be misunderstood.” ― Ralph Waldo Emerson, Self-Reliance

Soccer

Re: Ghadir Khumm context response
« Reply #26 on: June 02, 2020, 08:51:49 PM »
Thank you brother. I didn't realized that was him even though the style of writing is quite familiar to me. Start to feel that I'm wasting my time here... LOL.

Maybe I need to stop talking to him. He is the man with his own "madzhab". Everybody is in the wrong except, of course, him alone.

Every Sect rinses and repeats exactly what Quran warned if you do, you will go astray by doing.  I decided to reflect over Quran through help of hadiths, and I've come to realize there is much simpler yet more complex way. And it's simple as we want to be and it's complications is due to sorcery on the hearts.
"Is it so bad, then, to be misunderstood? Pythagoras was misunderstood, and Socrates, and Jesus, and Luther, and Copernicus, and Galileo, and Newton, and every pure and wise spirit that ever took flesh. To be great is to be misunderstood.” ― Ralph Waldo Emerson, Self-Reliance

Soccer

Re: Ghadir Khumm context response
« Reply #27 on: June 02, 2020, 08:57:22 PM »
We live in a time when Quran and it's people is among the people but not among them because truth is not to be mixed with falsehood. The faster you realize this, the faster you will achieve guidance.
"Is it so bad, then, to be misunderstood? Pythagoras was misunderstood, and Socrates, and Jesus, and Luther, and Copernicus, and Galileo, and Newton, and every pure and wise spirit that ever took flesh. To be great is to be misunderstood.” ― Ralph Waldo Emerson, Self-Reliance

Soccer

Re: Ghadir Khumm context response
« Reply #28 on: June 02, 2020, 09:06:06 PM »
“A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines. With consistency a great soul has simply nothing to do. He may as well concern himself with his shadow on the wall. Speak what you think now in hard words, and to-morrow speak what to-morrow thinks in hard words again, though it contradict every thing you said to-day. — 'Ah, so you shall be sure to be misunderstood.' — Is it so bad, then, to be misunderstood? Pythagoras was misunderstood, and Socrates, and Jesus, and Luther, and Copernicus, and Galileo, and Newton, and every pure and wise spirit that ever took flesh. To be great is to be misunderstood.” ― Ralph Waldo Emerson, Self-Reliance
"Is it so bad, then, to be misunderstood? Pythagoras was misunderstood, and Socrates, and Jesus, and Luther, and Copernicus, and Galileo, and Newton, and every pure and wise spirit that ever took flesh. To be great is to be misunderstood.” ― Ralph Waldo Emerson, Self-Reliance

Soccer

Re: Ghadir Khumm context response
« Reply #29 on: June 02, 2020, 09:29:08 PM »
Same here. Going round and around without answering.

I repeat: In version of Sahih Muslim clearly says the family of Jaafar, Aqil, etc are part of Ahlul Bayt and you conveniently exclude them. Why?

My post answers your question.
"Is it so bad, then, to be misunderstood? Pythagoras was misunderstood, and Socrates, and Jesus, and Luther, and Copernicus, and Galileo, and Newton, and every pure and wise spirit that ever took flesh. To be great is to be misunderstood.” ― Ralph Waldo Emerson, Self-Reliance

 

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