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I feel like there is some truth to the imamate

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Equate

Re: I feel like there is some truth to the imamate
« Reply #20 on: September 27, 2018, 09:51:49 PM »
A simple question and I got an essay on this, that and the other. So what was the last brick? When was this or these verse/s revealed and why? Whether religion was PERFECTED or COMPLETED but by what?

"The first brick is as important as the last brick to "perfect" the construction. Simple language"

Yeh, so why are you getting all hyped up about it. What was this last brick that was so important just as the first?

Well, the analogy was that in constructing a building, the last brick is the same as the first brick; the fourth brick is the same as the ninth brick; all of them are the same as any other brick out of millions of bricks that were used to construct the building. Every brick plays their role in the same way as part of the building. You seemed to suggest that, when something is said to be "completed", it must inherently mean that the last bit of it outweighs every other preceding bit of it in importance, and that the last bit inherently carries a special significance. I gave you an analogy saying that is not at all the case.

"What was this last brick that was so important just as the first?" - Nothing. The 114,516th brick is equally important as the last brick brick, as the first brick, as any other brick out of millions of bricks that make up the building. Every brick plays their role as part of the building equally importantly. What is important is that it is completed, not that there is a special bit or event at the end right before completion that stands apart from other preceding bits.

I wonder how you have a conversation with your mum at home.

Mum: "OK, the food is complete. Everybody at the table please."
You: "Mum, what happened on the last minute that before this minute food was but it hadn't been COMPLETED yet?"
Mum: "Umm, are you OK? I just said I finished cooking, come to eat"
« Last Edit: September 27, 2018, 09:53:11 PM by Equate »

iceman

Re: I feel like there is some truth to the imamate
« Reply #21 on: September 28, 2018, 09:52:22 AM »
Well, the analogy was that in constructing a building, the last brick is the same as the first brick; the fourth brick is the same as the ninth brick; all of them are the same as any other brick out of millions of bricks that were used to construct the building. Every brick plays their role in the same way as part of the building. You seemed to suggest that, when something is said to be "completed", it must inherently mean that the last bit of it outweighs every other preceding bit of it in importance, and that the last bit inherently carries a special significance. I gave you an analogy saying that is not at all the case.

"What was this last brick that was so important just as the first?" - Nothing. The 114,516th brick is equally important as the last brick brick, as the first brick, as any other brick out of millions of bricks that make up the building. Every brick plays their role as part of the building equally importantly. What is important is that it is completed, not that there is a special bit or event at the end right before completion that stands apart from other preceding bits.

I wonder how you have a conversation with your mum at home.

Mum: "OK, the food is complete. Everybody at the table please."
You: "Mum, what happened on the last minute that before this minute food was but it hadn't been COMPLETED yet?"
Mum: "Umm, are you OK? I just said I finished cooking, come to eat"

"Well, the analogy was that in constructing a building, the last brick is the same as the first brick; the fourth brick is the same as the ninth brick; all of them are the same as any other brick out of millions of bricks that were used to construct the building. Every brick plays their role in the same way as part of the building"

And I absolutely agree. But you've got to keep in mind that when it comes to construction or cooking we're not dealing with material or cooking but infact principles regarding construction and ingredients regarding cooking. You've got the wrong end of the stick.

iceman

Re: I feel like there is some truth to the imamate
« Reply #22 on: September 28, 2018, 10:08:07 AM »
Back at the verse/s in question, it starts off with "ALYAUMA  meaning TODAY" What exactly happened on that particular day? I've asked you this before, when and why was this/these verse/s revealed? What's the Ahle Sunnah perspective?

Mythbuster1

Re: I feel like there is some truth to the imamate
« Reply #23 on: September 28, 2018, 10:26:42 AM »
"This day have I perfected for you your religion and completed my favor on you and chosen for you Islam as a religion"
Qur'an, 5:3

When and why was this verse revealed? What exactly happened on this particular day that religion was PERFECTED and  favours were COMPLETED? 😊

Here's another translation of the verses,

This day I have perfected for you your religion and completed My favor upon you and have approved for you Islam as religion"

What happened on this day that before this day Islam was but it hadn't been PERFECTED yet, favours were but they weren't COMPLETED yet and Islam was but it hadn't been fully APPROVED yet?

DO READ THE FULL VERSES PLEASE!

The verse is about haram and halal not some mystery divine leader.

Why do you make stuff up?
You use verses that are for wives to try and prove of some mystery divinity leadership, you use verse that are for prophets and apply them to normal humans who Allah swt hasn’t chosen or in your case PROMOTED😂😂😂 ( that still kills me I love that response), and now you are using a part of a verse again and ADDING your own take on it without evidence or proof to lead you to such a thing (divine imarmite).

You are useless you can’t even bring one CLEAR verse you have FAILED as a Shiite you can’t even EXPLAIN divine imarmite and now you want to move on and ask me more questions???

A TRUE TROLL 👍👍

Until you can prove it CLEAR then we can move on and I will answer you, so stop the trolling troll my answers to others is none of your business, I will only reply back until you read the Quran and show me the verse that trumps shura, I told you shura is a noose round your neck you cannot shake it off or even speak ill of it as can be seen by your abysmal responses.

GreatChineseFall

Re: I feel like there is some truth to the imamate
« Reply #24 on: September 28, 2018, 12:07:04 PM »
But when it comes to their 12th Imam, it is all okay to overlook all the things that you have said above. When it comes to their 12th imam, it is okay not to have the leader leading the ummah nor for him to appoint anybody to lead while he is away. And it is okay too that the leader is away for more than 11 centuries!

This is and will always remain the achilles' heel of any such argument.

On a personal level, this is really a very simple matter.
If you run a business and need to step outside for a moment, what’s the first thing you do? You appoint someone to run it in your place.

Not comparable. If you really want an analogy, take one from the Prophet (ﷺ):
Quote
Narrated `Abdullah bin `Umar:
The Prophet (ﷺ) said, "Everyone of you is a guardian and everyone of you is responsible (for his wards). A ruler is a guardian and is responsible(for his subjects); a man is a guardian of his family and responsible (for them); a wife is a guardian of her husband's house and she is responsible (for it), a slave is a guardian of his master's property and is responsible (for that). Beware! All of you are guardians and are responsible (for your wards).

So the ruler has a need for appointing a successor after his death as much as a husband has a need for appointing a next husband for his wife.

iceman

Re: I feel like there is some truth to the imamate
« Reply #25 on: September 28, 2018, 06:41:12 PM »
This is and will always remain the achilles' heel of any such argument.

Not comparable. If you really want an analogy, take one from the Prophet (ﷺ):
So the ruler has a need for appointing a successor after his death as much as a husband has a need for appointing a next husband for his wife.

"So the ruler has a need for appointing a successor after his death as much as a husband has a need for appointing a next husband for his wife."

What a ridiculous example. First construction and cooking and now husband and wife. 😑 This is becoming a joke.

GreatChineseFall

Re: I feel like there is some truth to the imamate
« Reply #26 on: September 28, 2018, 07:14:56 PM »
"So the ruler has a need for appointing a successor after his death as much as a husband has a need for appointing a next husband for his wife."

What a ridiculous example. First construction and cooking and now husband and wife. 😑 This is becoming a joke.

I agree, that's why I said "If you REALLY want one". Every other example else is more ridiculous.

GreatChineseFall

Re: I feel like there is some truth to the imamate
« Reply #27 on: September 28, 2018, 10:15:06 PM »
By the way, feel free to use any example that suits you, as long as you don't forget to include al Mahdi in your example. Please show us how al Mahdi was a proper husband, football coach, business tycoon, president or gangster kingpin for that matter.

wannabe

Re: I feel like there is some truth to the imamate
« Reply #28 on: September 29, 2018, 06:50:41 AM »
There is no disrespect in your response, brother.
sorry for the delay.
sure glad you feel like so.
Quote
Normally, Twelver Shia do not go beyond Ali when when discussing about logic of having successor after Prophet (saw).
it seems to me, 1 argument put forward is like this:
if one believes in the 1st imam, it makes sense to inquire further who's the next (2nd) imam.
if one believes in the 1st and 2nd imams, it makes sense to inquire further who's the next (3rd) imam.
i hope you get the drift.
if one believe in the 1st eleven imams, it makes sense to inquire further who's the next (12th) imam.
i'm sure bro iceman/ijtaba can provide a more satisfactory answer.
Quote
If you know that "vanezilla" guy, why don't you throw that 12th imam thingy and see whether he can "make a lot of sense" out of that.
No, i don't know him/her.
with regards to 12th imam, here's an excerpt from  Al Kafi V 1 – The Book Of Divine Authority CHAPTER 41 H 4

....Then He has said in another part of His book, "Guard yourselves against discord among yourselves so that it will not mislead anyone of you, especially the unjust, and know that God's retribution is most severe." (8:25). It is about the Night of Determination. He has also said in His book, "Muhammad is only a Messenger. There lived other Messengers before him. Should (Muhammad) die or be slain, would you then turn back to your pre-Islamic behavior?
Whoever does so can cause no harm to God. God will reward those who give thanks." (3:144)
In the verse He has said that when Muhammad will die the opposition to the command of Allah, the Most Holy, the Most High, will say , "The Night of Determination has gone along with the Messenger of Allah." This is the first calamity that has befallen them exclusively. With this they returned back to their old ways. Had they not said so, it would have been necessary to believe that Allah, the Most Holy, the Most High, has His commands on that Night. Once they would affirm and acknowledge the command (delegation of Divine authority) it would have become necessary to believe in the existence of the man who possesses Divine authority."
 
i also read in PooyaTafsirQuranSurah71-114.pdf:
The night of qadr is in the month of Ramadan. See Baqarah: 185 and Dukhan: 1 to 3 wherein it is stated that the whole Quran was revealed in this night. The descension of the angels and the spirit is a regular occurrence since the creation of Allah till the day of resurrection, and the place of descent is a thoroughly purified heart (Ahzab: 33). Therefore there should be such a purified heart in existence at all times.
Imam Muhammad bin Ali al Baqir said:
"Present this surah as a decisive argument for the continuity of the divine vicegerency on the earth."

thus, i think shia believes "kulli amri"  in the verse ([Shakir 97:4] The angels and Gibreel descend in it by the permission of their Lord for every affair), came down for Rasul Allah, during his lifetime. After his demise, it comes for the imams.

all i'm saying, they do have grounds for their belief.

bro iceman/ijtaba
i don't see shia using this argument on the internet. any reason for it? or maybe i didn't look hard enough!

ps: in tafsir ibn kathir, concerning the verse 97:4,  i read
.
.
Qatadah and others have said,
"The matters are determined during it, and the times of death and provisions are measured out (i.e., decided) during it.''

wannabe

Re: I feel like there is some truth to the imamate
« Reply #29 on: September 29, 2018, 06:59:33 AM »
If you allow room for this much "eisegesis" (look it up on dictionary) in a text, then you can make it mean just about anything you would want it to mean. Not surprising, I mean, if you head over to anti-majos videos on youtube, you will see plenty of such "eisegesis" where pretty much anything in the Quran is "interpolated" (look it up on dictionary) to somehow be talking about Ali (ra) [Not necessarily saying that you endorse the shias showcased in anti-majos videos]. I am just flabbergasted how someone can insert so much extraneous substance into a text and not realize it. I guess I am witnessing the power of psychological conditioning.

What I make of it? I don't have to make anything of it. The verse is very clear and self-explanatory. You may want to look up what "perfecting/completing" actually means. When you perfect/complete something, the last bit that you complete it with does not necessarily have to be a special bit. When you construct a building and you put the last brick in it to complete it, that last brick is not necessarily any different from the very first brick. You just finish it off. The first brick is as important as the last brick to "perfect" the construction. Simple language. If the architect/workers go, "OK, here, after putting the last brick, the building is completed/perfected today", and you ask "well, what special thing did you do today and not before/what special brick did you put today and not before that it is now completed?", you are going to make a fool out of yourself.

It takes an incredible amount of desperation with all kinds of extraneous ideas to come up with the understandings you have about simple texts.
IMO, we lay the last brick, hence we have completed the building.
we make the building f.e self-sustaining and self-healing and ....(like the movie skyscraper 2018?), hence we have perfected it.
https://wikidiff.com/complete/perfect

iceman

Re: I feel like there is some truth to the imamate
« Reply #30 on: September 29, 2018, 09:44:54 AM »
I agree, that's why I said "If you REALLY want one". Every other example else is more ridiculous.

You need to look at what we're discussing and the nature of it and take it seriously just as the companions did at the demise of the Prophet s.a.w, that there should be someone incharge to govern and handle the Muslim affairs.

I'm trying to establish that Muhammad s.a.w didn't pass away leaving such an important matter without being addressed. You're trying to establish that he s.a.w did but the companions were worried and concerned about so they did what they had to do.

iceman

Re: I feel like there is some truth to the imamate
« Reply #31 on: September 29, 2018, 09:47:01 AM »
By the way, feel free to use any example that suits you, as long as you don't forget to include al Mahdi in your example. Please show us how al Mahdi was a proper husband, football coach, business tycoon, president or gangster kingpin for that matter.

You should be at a circus or pantomime, this is a discussion forum. I don't know what you think it is 😊

iceman

Re: I feel like there is some truth to the imamate
« Reply #32 on: September 29, 2018, 10:14:22 AM »
Forget about the first or last Imam, Imamah, occultation or hiding or anything else you have in mind, the main issue is, did the Prophet s.a.w have worries and concerns about who is going to govern the Muslims and handle their affairs or not? That's what we need to look at and establish the fact whether YES or NO.

Yes consensus (Shura) is in the Qur'an but what is it for? Where does it say that such an important matter was left to the Ummah by means of consensus? And if we still believe in this then why wasn't it followed?

There was no Shura in Saqifa to begin with if you look at the reason and nature of Saqifa. And Abu Bakr named and appointed his successor and Umar took a different turn in how the third Caliph should be selected.

Yes we bag on about Shura but why wasn't  it used to select/elect? What was the method and procedure concerning Shura and what are the principles and rules and regulations concerning it? Still hasn't been touched on.

Abu Muhammad

Re: I feel like there is some truth to the imamate
« Reply #33 on: September 29, 2018, 11:26:51 AM »
You need to look at what we're discussing and the nature of it and take it seriously just as the companions did at the demise of the Prophet s.a.w, that there should be someone incharge to govern and handle the Muslim affairs.

I'm trying to establish that Muhammad s.a.w didn't pass away leaving such an important matter without being addressed. You're trying to establish that he s.a.w did but the companions were worried and concerned about so they did what they had to do.

Just an advice. Every time you throw these kind of statements, please apply the same to your 12th imam. Or else, people will call it as "double standard"...

iceman

Re: I feel like there is some truth to the imamate
« Reply #34 on: September 29, 2018, 11:53:38 AM »
Just an advice. Every time you throw these kind of statements, please apply the same to your 12th imam. Or else, people will call it as "double standard"...

They can't call it a double standard because how is it a double standard? Thanks for the advice but what's your point? Every time I throw these kind of statements you boys are too hesitant to address them. You  look for counter arguments just to avoid addressing them.

GreatChineseFall

Re: I feel like there is some truth to the imamate
« Reply #35 on: September 30, 2018, 03:30:17 PM »
You need to look at what we're discussing and the nature of it and take it seriously just as the companions Shia did at the demise of the Prophet s.a.w ghayba of al Mahdi, that there should be someone incharge to govern and handle the Muslim affairs.

I'm trying to establish that Muhammad s.a.w didn't pass al Mahdi didn't hide away leaving such an important matter without being addressed. You're trying to establish that he s.a.w did but the companions Shia were worried and concerned about so they did what they had to do.

Forget about the first or last Imam Prophet, Imamah Prophethood, occultation or hiding Shura or election/selection or anything else you have in mind, the main issue is, did the Prophet s.a.w al Mahdi have worries and concerns about who is going to govern the Muslims and handle their affairs or not? That's what we need to look at and establish the fact whether YES or NO.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2018, 03:37:54 PM by GreatChineseFall »

GreatChineseFall

Re: I feel like there is some truth to the imamate
« Reply #36 on: September 30, 2018, 03:36:48 PM »
it seems to me, 1 argument put forward is like this:
if one believes in the 1st imam, it makes sense to inquire further who's the next (2nd) imam.
if one believes in the 1st and 2nd imams, it makes sense to inquire further who's the next (3rd) imam.
i hope you get the drift.
if one believe in the 1st eleven imams, it makes sense to inquire further who's the next (12th) imam.
i'm sure bro iceman/ijtaba can provide a more satisfactory answer.

This isn't about the appointment of the twelfth Imam, we accept his appointment (for argument's sake) and we pledged allegiance to him ( for argument's sake), the question is when it is necessary for him to leave, why doesn't he appoint someone to take care of the affairs of the Ummah like the Prophet (ﷺ) when he left for Tabuk and let Ali be in charge of Medina. So trying to prove the Imamate of the twelfth has no application here, it is not what is in question.

« Last Edit: September 30, 2018, 03:38:23 PM by GreatChineseFall »

GreatChineseFall

Re: I feel like there is some truth to the imamate
« Reply #37 on: September 30, 2018, 03:39:29 PM »
You should be at a circus or pantomime, this is a discussion forum. I don't know what you think it is 😊

Again, I could agree with the statement that whoever seriously use these kinds of examples should be at a circus or a pantomime.

iceman

Re: I feel like there is some truth to the imamate
« Reply #38 on: September 30, 2018, 10:06:56 PM »


What a lovely joke. I'll give you 10 out of 10 for it. At least you're useful at something😊

GreatChineseFall

Re: I feel like there is some truth to the imamate
« Reply #39 on: October 01, 2018, 12:38:24 AM »
What a lovely joke. I'll give you 10 out of 10 for it. At least you're useful at something😊

Again, I could agree that this is an appropriate response to people who seriously argue this way.

 

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