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Immediate Calipah After Prophet Sulaiman (as)?

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Rationalist

Immediate Calipah After Prophet Sulaiman (as)?
« on: December 31, 2019, 07:46:33 AM »
The 12er Shia believe that a Prophet must appoint a Calipah. Can they tell us who succeeded the Calipahate of Prophet Sulaiman (as)? 

iceman

Re: Immediate Calipah After Prophet Sulaiman (as)?
« Reply #1 on: January 01, 2020, 06:16:31 PM »
The 12er Shia believe that a Prophet must appoint a Calipah. Can they tell us who succeeded the Calipahate of Prophet Sulaiman (as)?

We believe that Muhammad s.a.w named and appointed someone to govern after him. On the orders of Allah. This wasn't just Ali but the household of Ali. They were chosen to govern the Muslim Ummah and take charge of its affairs after Muhammad s.a.w. There is numerous amount of evidence within Qur'an and Sunnah regarding this despite those who pushed their way into authority and did their best to do away with what ever or who ever threatened or opposed their decision and position.

Rationalist

Re: Immediate Calipah After Prophet Sulaiman (as)?
« Reply #2 on: January 01, 2020, 08:41:25 PM »
So iceman for 12er Shia the rule isn't that every Prophet must appoint a Calipah? It is just the case for the ummah?

Salavaaat

Re: Immediate Calipah After Prophet Sulaiman (as)?
« Reply #3 on: January 01, 2020, 09:23:22 PM »
We believe that Muhammad s.a.w named and appointed someone to govern after him. On the orders of Allah. This wasn't just Ali but the household of Ali. They were chosen to govern the Muslim Ummah and take charge of its affairs after Muhammad s.a.w. There is numerous amount of evidence within Qur'an and Sunnah regarding this despite those who pushed their way into authority and did their best to do away with what ever or who ever threatened or opposed their decision and position.

Thats why in nahjul balaghah sermon 226 Ali says he refused khilafah until the people forced him.

In other words according to shias he was disobeying Allah and hence not an infallible

Rationalist

Re: Immediate Calipah After Prophet Sulaiman (as)?
« Reply #4 on: October 17, 2020, 01:27:21 AM »
Soccer can you give your input here.

Soccer

Re: Immediate Calipah After Prophet Sulaiman (as)?
« Reply #5 on: October 17, 2020, 07:20:42 PM »
We've discussed this indirectly before but the Successors of Musa (a) are as follows:

1. Harun (a)
2. Samuel (a)
3. Talut (a)
4. Dawood (a)
5. Sulaiman (a)
6. Elyas (a)
7. Alyasa (a)
8. Dul-Kifl (a)
9. Imran (a)
10. Zakariya (a)
11. Yahya (a)
12. Isa (a)

There is a hadtih in Bukhari or Muslim I forget which, but from Abu Huraira that the Prophet (s) said that bani-Israel used to be ruled by Prophets, whenever one died another took his place, and there won't be more Prophets but there will be successors.

"Is it so bad, then, to be misunderstood? Pythagoras was misunderstood, and Socrates, and Jesus, and Luther, and Copernicus, and Galileo, and Newton, and every pure and wise spirit that ever took flesh. To be great is to be misunderstood.” ― Ralph Waldo Emerson, Self-Reliance

Rationalist

Re: Immediate Calipah After Prophet Sulaiman (as)?
« Reply #6 on: October 18, 2020, 05:37:59 PM »
We've discussed this indirectly before but the Successors of Musa (a) are as follows:

1. Harun (a)

You also believe the 12 Chiefs of Bani Israel are his Calipahs so this makes it 13 in total.
Also you didn't mention Yusha bin Noon.

Quote

There is a hadtih in Bukhari or Muslim I forget which, but from Abu Huraira that the Prophet (s) said that bani-Israel used to be ruled by Prophets, whenever one died another took his place, and there won't be more Prophets but there will be successors.


Lets not rely on Abu Huraira. Give me the 12er Shia hadith. Do you believe Prophet only have Prophets as successors?

Soccer

Re: Immediate Calipah After Prophet Sulaiman (as)?
« Reply #7 on: October 18, 2020, 05:49:54 PM »
Also you didn't mention Yusha bin Noon.

Just as the Quran didn't.

Quote
Lets not rely on Abu Huraira. Give me the 12er Shia hadith. Do you believe Prophet only have Prophets as successors?

From hadiths of our sources:


(1) All Anbiya had an Ahlulbayt.
(2)With every Nabi or Messenger there is Twelve other Leaders (part of his family) with him.

That means every Ahlulbayt had 13 Men in total (including the founder) and the Successors was always Twelve.

"Is it so bad, then, to be misunderstood? Pythagoras was misunderstood, and Socrates, and Jesus, and Luther, and Copernicus, and Galileo, and Newton, and every pure and wise spirit that ever took flesh. To be great is to be misunderstood.” ― Ralph Waldo Emerson, Self-Reliance

Rationalist

Re: Immediate Calipah After Prophet Sulaiman (as)?
« Reply #8 on: October 18, 2020, 07:28:36 PM »
Just as the Quran didn't.


From hadiths of our sources:


(1) All Anbiya had an Ahlulbayt.
(2)With every Nabi or Messenger there is Twelve other Leaders (part of his family) with him.[/quote]
(2)With every Nabi or Messenger there is Twelve other Leaders (part of his family) with him.
Who are the 12 for Prophet Sulaimaan(as). He actually prays that nobody should get his Kingdom. While his father Dawud (as) allowed him to have this Kingdom.


Soccer

Re: Immediate Calipah After Prophet Sulaiman (as)?
« Reply #9 on: October 18, 2020, 07:34:03 PM »

From hadiths of our sources:


(1) All Anbiya had an Ahlulbayt.
(2)With every Nabi or Messenger there is Twelve other Leaders (part of his family) with him.Who are the 12 for Prophet Sulaimaan(as). He actually prays that nobody should get his Kingdom. While his father Dawud (as) allowed him to have this Kingdom.


The Twelve of Sulaiman (a) are his predecessors and successors:


Predecessors:

Musa (a)
Harun (a)
Samuel (a)
Talut (a)
Dawood (a)

Successors:

Elyas (a)
Alyasa (a)
Dul-Kifl (a)
Imran (a)
Zakariya (a)
Yahya (a)
Isa (a)


Together, they are Twelve Leaders with him, together with him - one Ahlulbayt, chosen for a time, given authority to guide humans and be helpers in the unseen journey.

"Is it so bad, then, to be misunderstood? Pythagoras was misunderstood, and Socrates, and Jesus, and Luther, and Copernicus, and Galileo, and Newton, and every pure and wise spirit that ever took flesh. To be great is to be misunderstood.” ― Ralph Waldo Emerson, Self-Reliance

Rationalist

Re: Immediate Calipah After Prophet Sulaiman (as)?
« Reply #10 on: October 18, 2020, 07:44:10 PM »
What about his dua that nobody should have his Kingdom?


The Twelve of Sulaiman (a) are his predecessors and successors:


Predecessors:

Musa (a)
Harun (a)
Samuel (a)
Talut (a)
Dawood (a)

Successors:

Elyas (a)
Alyasa (a)
Dul-Kifl (a)
Imran (a)
Zakariya (a)
Yahya (a)
Isa (a)


Together, they are Twelve Leaders with him, together with him - one Ahlulbayt, chosen for a time, given authority to guide humans and be helpers in the unseen journey.



What about Prophet Yunus (as)? He is not in there. There is also Uzair who a sect of Yahood referred to as a son of god.  Also, the 12er Shia sources about another Prophet named Khalid bin Sinan who came after Prophet Isa (as) and before Prophet Muhammad (sawas).

Soccer

Re: Immediate Calipah After Prophet Sulaiman (as)?
« Reply #11 on: October 18, 2020, 08:11:55 PM »
Yonus (a) was not part of the Bani-Israel.  And Uzair (a) is a religious scholar that was pious and God made him a sign through performing a miracle on him, but he isn't chosen by God like Anbiya (a), just as the companions of the cave are not chosen by God for guidance before the world was created but people who God did miracles on and were very close to him. 
"Is it so bad, then, to be misunderstood? Pythagoras was misunderstood, and Socrates, and Jesus, and Luther, and Copernicus, and Galileo, and Newton, and every pure and wise spirit that ever took flesh. To be great is to be misunderstood.” ― Ralph Waldo Emerson, Self-Reliance

Rationalist

Re: Immediate Calipah After Prophet Sulaiman (as)?
« Reply #12 on: October 18, 2020, 08:28:24 PM »
Yonus (a) was not part of the Bani-Israel. 

The Kingdom of Israel expanded into Iraq so he is included. Look him up he is still end in the area covered by Israel. In fact Dhul Kifl is located in Iraq as well. The time of Prophet Sulaiman talks about Babylon so Israeli back then was beyond Israel today.

Soccer

Re: Immediate Calipah After Prophet Sulaiman (as)?
« Reply #13 on: October 18, 2020, 11:27:53 PM »
Yonus (a) was before Musa (a).
"Is it so bad, then, to be misunderstood? Pythagoras was misunderstood, and Socrates, and Jesus, and Luther, and Copernicus, and Galileo, and Newton, and every pure and wise spirit that ever took flesh. To be great is to be misunderstood.” ― Ralph Waldo Emerson, Self-Reliance

Rationalist

Re: Immediate Calipah After Prophet Sulaiman (as)?
« Reply #14 on: October 19, 2020, 04:24:59 AM »
No that is false. He came after Musa(as). Look up the family tree, he came from later generation connecting to Israel(as). Also you forgot Ayyub(as).
« Last Edit: October 19, 2020, 04:28:56 AM by Rationalist »

Soccer

Re: Immediate Calipah After Prophet Sulaiman (as)?
« Reply #15 on: October 19, 2020, 05:15:02 PM »
Salam

Yonus (a) was a founder of his own nation and came before Musa (a). 
Ayub (a) although a book is about him in Bible, his story was told about him in a way, we don't even know what time and place he was in.  He was not one of the Bani-Israel Anbiya (a).

There shouldn't be argument, nothing in the Quran hints Yonus (a) was sent to bani-Israel at all, but rather, he was one of the many Messengers that was sent to people who can be destroyed.   Out of all the warned cities in Quran, he is said to be the only one who his people believed when they saw the punishment from 3 days off.

Yonus (a) is greek for "Sign of God" I believe, and even his name is not Hebrew like almost all the Prophets (a) of the Bible including Adam and Seth and Noah which is all Hebrew versions of what their names mean. Yonus (a) was told I believe by Jesus (a) and hence his name is not even Hebrew. 

Ayub (a) is one of the most important related stories in the Bible, but he was NOT within the children of Israel. 

Anyways, the way to go about this issue is to hold on to what is clear.

There are hadiths that indicate every Nabi or Messenger has an Ahlulbayt. There are hadiths that show each Nabi and Messenger is such that with them in their blessed ascension and as well associated with their mission on earth is Twelve  other Leaders.

Now there are hadith that contradict that, for example, Yushua ibn Noon would make it more then Twelve for sure. There is also other potentials like Daniel if he is not Dul-Kifl to be problematic.

But the rule to all divisions and unclarity is to seek mental clarity with what is clear.

Let us investigate how Twelve is used in Quran.

1. Suratal Baqara

Directly related to sticking to the sustenance of God and that every people knew it's drinking place, and not to corrupt or cause havoc in the earth, followed up by that they were cursed and worthy of God's wrath because they rejected God's Signs and killed Prophets without truth, and this was due to the fact they disobeyed and exceeded limits.

2. Suratal Maeeda

Twelve Captains which goes with all the verses about ships in Quran, including the line "by the name of God is it's sailing and anchoring", and there is no reason to assume Captain here is some trivial military post or tribal leaders, the reason is as follows:

(1) It's directly emphasizing the covenant, what the covenant is about is about Twelve Captains being risen over them, while Tribal leaders not chosen by God are not that important and hardly related to the covenant.
(2) There is a later verse that emphasizes the covenant and says God sent Messengers.... so we can see these two verses in the chapter interpret one another.
(3) The verse after talks about children of Israel breaking covenant but as well talks about the contemporary and future generations of Bani-Israel with regards to Mohammad (s) to be treacherous and Mohammad (s) won't cease to find treachery from them.  So this can't be just about Twelve Tribal leaders of the time of Moses (a).  It's about the span of children of Israel all the way to Mohammad (s)..
(4)The twelve tribes is a lie, it's irrational to divide people according to lineage so long time ago, why not different set of people down the lineage, etc, it makes no sense.  Also, this organization doesn't make sense what so ever, in that how is people of different nations suppose to join.
(5) In line with that, there is serious hints to show Bani-Israel is a term like how Ahlulbayt (a) emphasized Salman (a) is from Ahlulbayt (a) while he was neither part of the chosen family nor blood related, but as hadiths show, believers are from Ahlulbayt (a) if they follow them and that they are born out of their light. Indeed a great theme of Quran is how Ibrahim (a) would emphasize who follows him is from him and other verses show the believers are closer to Ibrahim (a) regardless of blood.
(6) To emphasize more on the above, the Quran could've said children of Israel are offspring of Yaqoub (a), in the place it described their lineage, but when it did, it said "offspring of those who we carried with Noah", this shows "children of Israel" is a metaphor, and this makes sense, because what happen to all the believers of the family of Abraham (a)? Did they all go away and only people of the lineage of Yaqoub (a) remain believers?
(7) Israel means the one who struggles or fights with God or for God, both possible Hebrew wise, and so while originally about Yaqoub (a), in reality, it's also a description of the real religion, in that, Mohammad (s) is also an Israel (fighter/struggler for God) that strives the most on earth and who God trains to be strong to train others and can eventually defeat Angels in strength and even augment the strength of Angels.  So when Quran talks to children of Israel, is it just talking to Jews or Jews and Christians? I believe it's talk to all people who were under the last covenant of Moses (a) - and so were under obligation of the Twelve Captains under him.     The current children of Israel though is those under the covenant of Mohammad (s) but God called them that, in the same way, he calls Christians Christians, although believers of that time are more fit to be called helpers of God (Arabic version) or if he English version, they are more worthy to be said to follow the anointed one of God of the times they live in. Same with Yahud, it's a title fitting believers more, but for language precision - bani-Israel in Quran refers to the nation of Moses (a) in general, and referred to the followers of Abraham (a) and his family (a) before Moses (a).
(8) To have a holy meaning that has an impact on the heart, verse 5:12 flows with the day that God completed and perfected the religion (5:3) and shows a similar covenant was taken in the past as it did with Ghadeer day.   The proof in this in the Surah has so many hints but the hadiths also verify this.


Surah A'araaf

(1) The talk of Ibrahim, Ismael, Isaac, Yaqoub (peace be upon them) and Asbaat, shows Asbaat doesn't mean tribes, but refers to it's original meaning which is branches.   Tribes by parable can be seen as branches linking to another branch or root (the grandparent of the tribes for example by which they all link back too). But there is serious hints in every where it's used, that, branches refers to the chosen ones like Yusuf (a) being a branch of Ibrahim (a). 

(2) Ummatan in many places in Quran, for example, when it states Ibrahim (a) is a ummatan, means course/way/path, and refers to Ibrahim (a) as a means to God that was the path for them to take.  Keep this in mind, the verse before the mention of twelve can be saying from the people of Moses was a course/way in which they guided by the truth... this can be referring to his successors again.  The next verse suggests even though they were one course, they were split in twelve branches, each themselves as ways, and to emphasize how they are one way but Twelve ways, reminds of the the twelve rivers gushing from one place and that every people knew their drinking source. Again, this meaning has a purpose of guidance, while other meanings like tribes having some sort of physical river and God dividing bani-Israel into twelve nations, simply, doesn't have any application to us and is a non-sensical way of God to act.

(3) There is a verse that has similarity in that it talks about from who God has created, there is a ummatan... and similar line. Then it heavily emphasizes not to violate God's Names and the lost of those who deny God's signs.

(4) The verses before talk about Mohammad (s) was sent to all people and emphasize on God's authority in the heavens and earth, and talked about believing in the light revealed with Mohammad (s).  The light and course is obviously linked here by flow.  This is a hint that twelve Successors (a) are the light revealed with Mohammad (s).  Mohammad (s) is instance of the Quranic light, but it's saying believe in the light revealed alongside Mohammad (s).

(5) The chapter begins with emphasizing to follow that which God revealed and to follow any Awliya - but the chapter emphasizes Mohammad (s) and Messengers (a) before, were to be followed and believed in, and so this a serious hint that light revealed by God is referring to his chosen ones, as the Quran reveals the reality of his chosen ones and their position as guides and path to God.



Chapter Tawba

There is serious way to prove that luminaries is the proper translation and year to be generic, and this by keeping in mind the flow of the verses before, and also the significance of the name Ali (a) with respect to that topic flowing before.  But let's talk about the talk above, and we can go into detail of this to finish things off.




That said, it becomes obvious, that there is but Twelve Successors of Moses (a), but the flow of all the times they are mentioned, it's stated in a way, that it's true of the future (Mohammad (s)) and it was true of the past (past Ahlulbayts).


I'm not making this concept up, it's the proper way the Quran talked about Twelve.   
"Is it so bad, then, to be misunderstood? Pythagoras was misunderstood, and Socrates, and Jesus, and Luther, and Copernicus, and Galileo, and Newton, and every pure and wise spirit that ever took flesh. To be great is to be misunderstood.” ― Ralph Waldo Emerson, Self-Reliance

Soccer

Re: Immediate Calipah After Prophet Sulaiman (as)?
« Reply #16 on: October 19, 2020, 07:25:53 PM »
What about his dua that nobody should have his Kingdom?

The authority of Sulaiman (a) was unique in that forced even devils to submit and obey Sulaiman (a).  You would think this would make humanity and Jinn to be firmer believers, but, Sulaiman (a) didn't have that hope too much, he and God wanted to show that forcing humans to submit outwardly will not change them necessarily inwardly.

Despite Elyas (a) bringing the throne of Balqis in a twinkle of an eye, which was a display he was the successor of Sulaiman (a), people hated the family of Dawood (a)/Harun (a)/Musa (a), they hated the Ahlulbayt (a) now more then ever and were super jealous of their power.

Dawood (a) despite being ruler outwardly, cursed disbelievers. And Isa (a) without power outwardly, cursed disbelievers.

Sulaiman (a) reacted to a body, it hit him, and he at the moment wanted to prove something to humans and Jinn by having forced authority which due to it's nature, would not befit any of his family successors all the way to Isa (a).

Despite all that force,  humans and Jinn became more rebellious towards miracles and proofs.  When Sulaiman (a) died, they ignored Elyas (a) who might have or not, gone to occultation only to return at a time when children of Israel started abandoning the God displayed by the Prophets (a) for the Creator as believed by pagans.   Baal is a name of the Creator, but it was the name pagans who were conquered by Dawood (a) and Sulaiman (a) referred to God. Children of Israel over all were engrossed in sorcery and worship of demonic beings and followed the Prophets of those devils and saw Sulaiman (a) as a sorcerer.

The sorcerers and their demons had power to lit the tower, but God and Elyas (a) didn't allow it to happen.  This was unexpected, because it was not the level of miracle to put the tower to fire when it was set up, demons have that power, even sorcerers can ignite to a certain degree.

The fact is Elyas (a) put something they all thought they can easily do or at least do together, the Devils and their friend Prophets that it is,  but God and Elyas (a) didn't allow them to do it, embarrassed them.

And that was just the first competition. It was followed by many miracles.

Elyas (a) after Sulaiman (a) let them deviate for a bit, only to come back, and show them their sorcerers have no power but what God and Elyas (a) allow them to have.

Elyas (a) could've have also forced the Jinn and humans, even Nuh (a) says
will we force you to it and you are averse to it?", but, this would've caused more rebellion on humans.

Sulaiman (a) wanted to show - that it doesn't matter,  only day of judgment type display of proof, will cause all humans and Jinn to believe.  This is why he said it doesn't fit for his successors to have this authority of compelling and forcing humans to submitting to his power. It was to prove something and repeating it would be more harmful for humans and Jinn in terms of evil and disbelief as it became obvious, as their hate towards the chosen ones only intensified save a few of believers and lovers of God.

This is also ultimately why when Hussain (a) was given a choice between victory through Angels (a) and God's help or die and let his women be captured as well, chose not to do it.  He could've forced all enemies to submission, but his sacrifice and more a natural way of dying instead of defeating everyone was an act of compassion and way of inspiring believers who don't have that power.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2020, 07:33:14 PM by Soccer »
"Is it so bad, then, to be misunderstood? Pythagoras was misunderstood, and Socrates, and Jesus, and Luther, and Copernicus, and Galileo, and Newton, and every pure and wise spirit that ever took flesh. To be great is to be misunderstood.” ― Ralph Waldo Emerson, Self-Reliance

Rationalist

Re: Immediate Calipah After Prophet Sulaiman (as)?
« Reply #17 on: October 21, 2020, 12:45:09 PM »
Salam

Yonus (a) was a founder of his own nation and came before Musa (a). 
Prove it. Post their family linkage.



Quote
Ayub (a) is one of the most important related stories in the Bible, but he was NOT within the children of Israel. 
Post the lineage.


Quote
(7) Israel means the one who struggles or fights with God or for God, both possible Hebrew wise, and so while originally about Yaqoub (a), in reality, it's also a description of the real religion, in that, Mohammad (s) is also an Israel (fighter/struggler for God) that strives the most on earth and who God trains to be strong to train others and can eventually defeat Angels in strength and even augment the strength of Angels. 
Fights with God? Wrestles with an angel?

Quote
I'm not making this concept up, it's the proper way the Quran talked about Twelve.   
Yes I thinks its the white magic.

Soccer

Re: Immediate Calipah After Prophet Sulaiman (as)?
« Reply #18 on: October 21, 2020, 06:34:35 PM »
Why is knowing their lineage a requirement to proving what I said about them?
"Is it so bad, then, to be misunderstood? Pythagoras was misunderstood, and Socrates, and Jesus, and Luther, and Copernicus, and Galileo, and Newton, and every pure and wise spirit that ever took flesh. To be great is to be misunderstood.” ― Ralph Waldo Emerson, Self-Reliance

Rationalist

Re: Immediate Calipah After Prophet Sulaiman (as)?
« Reply #19 on: October 22, 2020, 05:59:16 AM »
You said Prophets Ayub(as) and Yunus(as) are not part of Bani Israel. So which lineage are they from?

 

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