TwelverShia.net Forum

Invitation to debating on the names of the Children of Ali, Hasan, and Hussain

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

whoaretheshia

In the name of Allah,

Salam,

I would like to invite one user on here to engage with dialogue with me on the names of the children of Ali b. Abi Talib, Hasan b. Ali and Hussein b. Ali. We should start with the first Khalifah, Abu Bakr, and then move stepwise onto the last of the three, Uthman b. Affan.

After agreeing on terms, hopefully brother Farid or one of the others can help us and make a thread on the debate forum, insha Allah.

The main condition is keeping respect of one another, no abuse, and as far as is possible, respecting revered individuals of our respective madhabs.

"I leave behind for you two weighty things, which if you hold onto, you will never go astray...the Quran and my Ahlulbayt" - Musnad Ibn Rawayh (al-Albani classes Isnaad *independently* as Hasan, and Matn as authentic, as does Al-Arnaut, Ibn Hajar and others.

muslim720

We all agree that Imam Ali (ra) named his children Abu Bakr, Umar, etc, even if we disagree who they were named after.  My issue is this: Imam Ali (ra), whom you follow, chose Umar as a name for his son.  I will pretend he named his son after some other Umar (other than the 2nd Caliph).  Show me one Shi'i today who named his son Umar.

Easy to claim "they hate us because we follow Ahlul Bayt" but then your ritualized cursing is nothing but following in the footsteps of Banu Ummayah who introduced ritualized cursing of Imam Ali (ra).
"Our coward ran from those in authority" - Iceman (admitting the truth regarding his 12th Imam)

whoaretheshia

We all agree that Imam Ali (ra) named his children Abu Bakr, Umar, etc, even if we disagree who they were named after.  My issue is this: Imam Ali (ra), whom you follow, chose Umar as a name for his son.  I will pretend he named his son after some other Umar (other than the 2nd Caliph).  Show me one Shi'i today who named his son Umar.

Easy to claim "they hate us because we follow Ahlul Bayt" but then your ritualized cursing is nothing but following in the footsteps of Banu Ummayah who introduced ritualized cursing of Imam Ali (ra).

I believe the debate should start with the assumption that everything must be proven. The very secondary issue of why no Shia today names their son Umar can be answered, and to be fair with you, that has more to do with the connotations in the religious and cultural sphere today particularly with regards to that name, as compared to the meaning the name would have had in seventh century Arabia, before Shia-Sunni polemics truly crystallised.

The absolute primary focus of the issue centres on:

1. Did Imam Ali b. Abi Talib , Hasan b. Ali, and Hussain b. Ali give the kunya 'Abu Bakr' to their children?

2. Does the weight of evidence show far more likelier candidates for the name 'Uthman'?

3. And what about the name 'Umar'?

If you or anyone else is willing to engage with me on these three primary questions, please do let me know.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2019, 04:18:04 PM by whoaretheshia »
"I leave behind for you two weighty things, which if you hold onto, you will never go astray...the Quran and my Ahlulbayt" - Musnad Ibn Rawayh (al-Albani classes Isnaad *independently* as Hasan, and Matn as authentic, as does Al-Arnaut, Ibn Hajar and others.

whoaretheshia

Double post
"I leave behind for you two weighty things, which if you hold onto, you will never go astray...the Quran and my Ahlulbayt" - Musnad Ibn Rawayh (al-Albani classes Isnaad *independently* as Hasan, and Matn as authentic, as does Al-Arnaut, Ibn Hajar and others.

muslim720

I believe the debate should start with the assumption that everything must be proven.

Even the most staunch opponents of Sunnis do not dispute the names; they only dispute who they were named after so no need to prove that which we agree upon.

Quote
The very secondary issue of why no Shia today names their son Umar can be answered, and to be fair with you, that has more to do with the connotations in the religious and cultural sphere today particularly with regards to that name, as compared to the meaning the name would have had in seventh century Arabia, before Shia-Sunni polemics truly crystallised.

Therefore, my point stands!  Part-time, in fact seasonal, followers of Ahlul Bayt (ra).  Cherry-picking what suits you and throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

Quote
The absolute primary focus of the issue centres on:

1. Did Imam Ali b. Abi Talib , Hasan b. Ali, and Hussain b. Ali give the kunya 'Abu Bakr' to their children?

2. Does the weight of evidence show far more likelier candidates for the name 'Uthman'?

3. And what about the name 'Umar'?

If you or anyone else is willing to engage with me on these three primary questions, please do let me know.

Your primary focus is to take focus away from the glaring problem for which you have no answer.  It is as simple as admitting that you know better than the Holy Prophet (saw) and your own first "infallible" Imam (ra).  More than Imam Ali (ra), you are better equipped with the knowledge as to which names are best suited for your children and you know the Sahaba (ra) better than the Holy Prophet (saw) did.  Problem solved! 
"Our coward ran from those in authority" - Iceman (admitting the truth regarding his 12th Imam)

iceman

Something I'd like to ask. Did any of the companions of the Prophet s.a.w and their children onwards name any of their kids by the name of Ali, Fatima, Hassan, Hussain etc?

muslim720

Something I'd like to ask. Did any of the companions of the Prophet s.a.w and their children onwards name any of their kids by the name of Ali, Fatima, Hassan, Hussain etc?

The First Three (ra) had children named Muhammad, Abdullah, Umm Kulthum, Zayd and Ruqayya all of which were names of Ahlul Bayt (ra), the members that you conveniently exclude.  The beautiful thing is that we do not claim to be following the Ahlul Bayt (ra) exclusively as you do yet you find a multiplicity of names among our children.  You, on the other hand, claim to follow the tradition which (allegedly) Imam Ali (ra) set in action and you still fail to imitate him in naming your children, lol.

Also, it is noteworthy to see that the First Three (ra) had 12 children (combined) whereas Imam Ali (ra) alone had 10.

"Our coward ran from those in authority" - Iceman (admitting the truth regarding his 12th Imam)

iceman

The First Three (ra) had children named Muhammad, Abdullah, Umm Kulthum, Zayd and Ruqayya all of which were names of Ahlul Bayt (ra), the members that you conveniently exclude.  The beautiful thing is that we do not claim to be following the Ahlul Bayt (ra) exclusively as you do yet you find a multiplicity of names among our children.  You, on the other hand, claim to follow the tradition which (allegedly) Imam Ali (ra) set in action and you still fail to imitate him in naming your children, lol.

Also, it is noteworthy to see that the First Three (ra) had 12 children (combined) whereas Imam Ali (ra) alone had 10.



Just asked a simple question and you come out with a SARCASTIC ATTACK  😊 You seem to have some serious issues with yourself. Get yourself checked out. Your health is more important than me or anything else.

muslim720

Just asked a simple question and you come out with a SARCASTIC ATTACK  😊 You seem to have some serious issues with yourself. Get yourself checked out. Your health is more important than me or anything else.

It was not a sarcastic attack.  Call it what you may but it successfully undid your deflection and foiled your attempt to deviate from the point being discussed.

My responses have exposed two key points:

1.  Shias claim to follow Ahlul Bayt (ra) but fall short to emulate them on issues such as naming their children after the First Three (ra).

2.  The Sahaba (ra), especially the First Three (ra), named their children after Ahlul Bayt (ra).  Too bad you do not consider those individuals to be "Ahlul Bayt" in the exclusive sense that you define the term.

My points still stand and as an added bonus, you can cry yourself to sleep over this tidbit that there are more children named after Ahlul Bayt (ra) in my family (immediate and extended) - especially Ali - than there are those named after the First Three (ra).
« Last Edit: June 11, 2019, 08:47:54 PM by muslim720 »
"Our coward ran from those in authority" - Iceman (admitting the truth regarding his 12th Imam)

Shia not Rafidi

They say, The Ashab e Salasa didn't have copyright of their names so no wonder if Ali ra named his sons Umar, Abu Bakr..
...
we say Would you name your son Umar or Abu Bakr even though they didn't do anything to you personally 😊
#__Shia of Ali__#
#__Sunni of Prophet Muhammad__#

iceman

It was not a sarcastic attack.  Call it what you may but it successfully undid your deflection and foiled your attempt to deviate from the point being discussed.

My responses have exposed two key points:

1.  Shias claim to follow Ahlul Bayt (ra) but fall short to emulate them on issues such as naming their children after the First Three (ra).

2.  The Sahaba (ra), especially the First Three (ra), named their children after Ahlul Bayt (ra).  Too bad you do not consider those individuals to be "Ahlul Bayt" in the exclusive sense that you define the term.

My points still stand and as an added bonus, you can cry yourself to sleep over this tidbit that there are more children named after Ahlul Bayt (ra) in my family (immediate and extended) - especially Ali - than there are those named after the First Three (ra).

"it successfully undid your deflection and foiled your attempt to deviate from the point being discussed"

I asked a simple question and you came out with a sarcastic attack. And now you come out with an attack based on accusation. You really need to get yourself checked out.

muslim720

I asked a simple question and you came out with a sarcastic attack. And now you come out with an attack based on accusation. You really need to get yourself checked out.

Your "simple question" is ineffective, even as a deflection tactic. 

The First Three (ra) had no sons named Ali, Hassan or Hussain, or a daughter named Fatima, yet these names are just as prevalent among Sunnis, if not more, than the names Abu Bakr, Umar and Uthman.

The real issue is that how come you do not follow Imam Ali (ra) when it comes to naming your children. 
"Our coward ran from those in authority" - Iceman (admitting the truth regarding his 12th Imam)

 

Related Topics

  Subject / Started by Replies Last post
3 Replies
1532 Views
Last post July 07, 2015, 01:41:53 PM
by MuslimK
0 Replies
621 Views
Last post August 15, 2015, 10:10:29 PM
by Ibn Yahya
2 Replies
468 Views
Last post February 11, 2018, 06:52:23 PM
by Rationalist
4 Replies
656 Views
Last post June 06, 2020, 09:33:24 PM
by whoaretheshia