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Kamal al Haydari on Takfir on non-12ers

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Bolani Muslim

Kamal al Haydari on Takfir on non-12ers
« on: May 01, 2015, 03:57:54 AM »
Salaam, I did my best to translate and Inshallah I hope I made no mistakes.

Translation:
Dear friends, this is good so hear me out.
No 12er shia aalim will find a hukm that didn't give kufr statement on none besides shias (all non-shias are kafir) WITHOUT EXCEPTION, WITHOUT EXCEPTION.
The only difference between Shias are: Some gave kufr hukm against eachother in appearance and reality and some against others with opposing views in Islam.
But against Baatin All give kufr statement against them and their is ijma (consensus).
No Issues their! My dears, what is the origin of this kufr hukm? What's the basis of takfir?:
It is that imamate from the opinion of Shia, or Usool from 'Usool e Deen' (roots of deen) or from the roots of our mazhab.
And because of this dears, this belief: Meaning that the method of takfeer in the school of 'Ahlul Bayt' isn't chopping off hands or changing out main beliefs, and until shias (remove) imamat from usool e deen or usool e mazhab or importance of importance in our mazhab and deen, then the takfeer on ALL others stands and their is NO other way.
And the way of takfir in shia religion is clear cut.
Deers (not the animal) what I just said is authentically shia.
The book 'صاحب الجواهر' Volume 22 page 62 talks about people with beliefs outside the fold of 12er shiaism: With a hadees that's frequent about the 'others' with a frequently occurring hadees that's final says that: They (Ahlul Bayt?) did lanat on Ahlul Sunnah and said abusive words to them, and abused Ahlul Sunnah and considers the Ahlul Sunnah as KAFIR, because they (Ahlul Sunnah) are the Zoroastrians (fire-worshipper) of the ummah, and are moer evil than the Christians, and are as filthy as DOGS.
When the Ahlul Sunnah say stuff like this, then what usually goes through your mind?
I don't want this year's actions of al-Qaeda and Daesh and send out takfir statements. Never! Never! However, when you read what the Shias believe about them (sunnis), Wallah, Shias should read these statements and they (shia) won't know what to do!!!
Shias have given a religious ruling that Sunnis are Najis kafirs, and see Sunnis as at a lower level then Christians and Jews.
While we're the ummah of Mohammad (saw) and the Quran says: If someone assaults you, then someone (abuse?) them.
Now that we've given the verdict that Ahlul Sunnah are najis kafirs and we are to do lanat on Sunnis and that they are worse then Christians and Jews!

MuslimAnswers

Re: Kamal al Haydari on Takfir on non-12ers
« Reply #1 on: May 01, 2015, 04:30:05 AM »
^

I do not know Farsi, but the translation will need some improvement (like for the term "Dear ones", some other term will have to be used).

Bolani Muslim

Re: Kamal al Haydari on Takfir on non-12ers
« Reply #2 on: May 01, 2015, 07:14:26 AM »
'Dear' sounds odd, but I don't think theirs any English equivalent.

Farid

Re: Kamal al Haydari on Takfir on non-12ers
« Reply #3 on: May 01, 2015, 07:37:00 AM »
Pretty harsh video. I don't think i've seen Kamal like this before.

I don't watch much TV or youtube so i wouldn't know if he's usually like this.

MuslimAnswers

Re: Kamal al Haydari on Takfir on non-12ers
« Reply #4 on: May 01, 2015, 01:34:45 PM »
'Dear' sounds odd, but I don't think theirs any English equivalent.

Hmm, you should stick to translations of 'originally Farsi' videos to English, since a twice translated video or text will have problems, and will decrease the effect of the work.

Hani

Re: Kamal al Haydari on Takfir on non-12ers
« Reply #5 on: May 01, 2015, 11:02:39 PM »
Sahib al-Jawahir means the author of al-Jawahir, he's Ayatullat al-Jawahiri and his book is Jawahir al-Kalam.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

MuslimK

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Re: Kamal al Haydari on Takfir on non-12ers
« Reply #6 on: May 01, 2015, 11:48:29 PM »
Powerful Video!

AM should upload this on this their sites ASAP. This topic of Takfir is very important especially nowadays.
در خلافت میل نیست ای بی‌خبر
میل کی آید ز بوبکر و عمر
میل اگر بودی در آن دو مقتدا
هر دو کردندی پسر را پیشوا

عطار نِیشابوری

www.Nahjul-Balagha.net | www.TwelverShia.net | www.ghadirkhumm.com

Rationalist

Re: Kamal al Haydari on Takfir on non-12ers
« Reply #7 on: May 03, 2015, 07:16:48 AM »
Awesome! One 12er Shia brother was telling me that Sunnis do takfir on Shias too. I told him the ones  that do are open about it. Unlike the 12ers who on  inside consider Sunnis kaffir, but on the outside smile and call you brother.

Bolani Muslim

Re: Kamal al Haydari on Takfir on non-12ers
« Reply #8 on: May 05, 2015, 09:45:57 PM »
I made my first video and I'd like to give thanks to Abu Muslim Khoraisani and Kalemah TV :D
« Last Edit: May 05, 2015, 09:51:06 PM by Bolani Muslim »

MuslimAnswers

Re: Kamal al Haydari on Takfir on non-12ers
« Reply #9 on: May 06, 2015, 08:38:37 PM »
^

We have to consider the motive behind these statements: For the Sunnis, we are, as everyone knows, quite open about declaring the Kufr of those who are open in their disbelief. If a person is a Munaafiq, we cannot declare Kufr, since he is doing the actions of Islam and harboring hatred for Islam inside his heart, but we only judge based on the apparent.

But for the Shia, if he says that we are 'Muslims in this world', then the belief in 'Ali's (RAA) Imaamah is a secret doctrine and/or a probabilistic one. It cannot be said that the belief in Imaamah is obligatory, and yet the one who openly rejects it knowingly is a 'hidden non-Muslim', precisely because of the open nature of his disbelief about an indubitable doctrine.

(It could also be that the double-speak could not be kept up: One can only scratch one's head when, throughout their books, the Shia calls the beliefs of the Sunnis and the leaders of the Sunnis as Nasibis and Hell-bound for rejecting their 'Infallibles', then closes it with 'an appeal for our Sunni brothers to reconsider their beliefs'...something has got to give.)
« Last Edit: May 06, 2015, 09:00:52 PM by MuslimAnswers »

matpau_83

Re: Kamal al Haydari on Takfir on non-12ers
« Reply #10 on: May 07, 2015, 10:48:18 AM »
This is like clear cut proof of their deviant creed towards others sects. But i'm pretty sure when i post this video to any shi'i, the first thing that come out is, it's not a full video bla bla bla, this is wahabi propoganda, bla bla bla. I think Haydari above is trying to diffuse the tension of conflicting texts and fatwa between classical shi'i scholars and 'contemporary' shi'i scholar regarding 'unity with sunnis'. its like nuri tabarsi all over again. u cover one hole, two new leaks come out..

MuslimK

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Re: Kamal al Haydari on Takfir on non-12ers
« Reply #11 on: July 18, 2015, 02:31:41 AM »
Here is the full lecture from the official site of Ayatollah Kamal Haydari in case Shias claim these are taken out of context:

(Last 10 minutes)

http://alhaydari.com/ar/2014/09/54415/

در خلافت میل نیست ای بی‌خبر
میل کی آید ز بوبکر و عمر
میل اگر بودی در آن دو مقتدا
هر دو کردندی پسر را پیشوا

عطار نِیشابوری

www.Nahjul-Balagha.net | www.TwelverShia.net | www.ghadirkhumm.com

Ebn Hussein

Re: Kamal al Haydari on Takfir on non-12ers
« Reply #12 on: November 01, 2020, 05:12:52 AM »
English translation:

الإمام الشافعي رحمه الله
لم أر أحداً من أهل الأهواء أشهد بالزور من الرافضة! - الخطيب في الكفاية والسوطي.

Imam Al-Shafi3i - may Allah have mercy upon him - said: "I have not seen among the heretics a people more famous for falsehood than the Rafidah." [narrated by Al-Khatib Al-Baghdadi/Al-Kifayah]

Rationalist

Re: Kamal al Haydari on Takfir on non-12ers
« Reply #13 on: November 01, 2020, 09:09:01 PM »
If 12er Shia accept this, they will still talk about how Shias are being killed by Sunnis, and how more Sunnis are takfiri. When it comes to them, we are supposed to accept that they are created from a special clay, and how they are the only momins in the world.

Soccer

Re: Kamal al Haydari on Takfir on non-12ers
« Reply #14 on: November 02, 2020, 06:18:58 PM »
Most of non-Muslim propaganda that are not against laws of Islam or life of Mohammad (s) - are about our stance against disbelievers in general.

As Muslims, we make a compact with God, that we will submit to his guidance and accept his chosen ones, this is the heart of religion in all times.  Books always got corrupted in the past, but if God sends a chosen one, people must listen and given them a chance.

There is different levels of hell, but when children of Israel had all they been given, and they believed some of the book while disbelieved in what they didn't want to believe, they became like Pharaoh's people, the lowest of the low in fire, and the most severe punishment in the next world awaits them.

The same is explicitly said about hypocrites in Quran, they are of the lowest fire. And Mohammad (s) said that most of the hypocrites are among the reciters of Quran.

And the Quran talked about sorcery, hard hearts, blindness, and contextualization and what happens when sorcery and hard hearts combine - is blind taking verses out of their place, whether heedless or not, the latter (not) being a bigger evil, but heedlessly is not allowed either.

And attributing God what we don't of his religion won't be forgiven by so many verses of Quran.

And not seeing the truth and hating it, despite the purpose of Quran so we understand it and rely on it and are guided by it, doesn't have an excuse.

And what kills the excuse even further is that clear message of Mohammad (s) that dispels any dark magic surrounding his Nubuwa (Quran reception).

And Nubuwa is two things, it's Quran that we read, and it's Quran we have yet to read in the sense, there is higher levels of "Quran" in understanding, and Nubuwa covers reception at levels we perceive and levels we don't perceive.

And Sunnah is more comprehensive then Resalah, Resalah is what is clear and manifest to society in general, in clear terms, but Sunnah contains secrets too, and the secrets is not because Mohammad (s) doesn't want to convey us knowledge, rather, the constraint on his chest, is due to what people would say and the propaganda they relied on.

And Musa (a) looked to the one God will send, but Allah (swt) told him you have Harun (a) per the Torah, and this shows a lot and shows Mohammad (s) and his family (a) in the Torah, and the Mahdi (a), and if you keep this in mind, you will see that God reminds through the prayer of Musa (a) about Harun (a) in many places, how Mohammad (s) and his family (a) are still in the Torah today.

And it's clear - as the one who God will send to the whole world is not going to repair the physical tongue of Moses (a) and make him speak clearly in that regard, but it was a metaphor, and expressed differently in other places for example "they put their hands on their mouths" - showing societies made it impossible for Messengers (a) to deliver the truth.

And Ahlulbayt is not new, Quran shows, there has always been an Ahlulbayt to the extent if let's for sake of argument Mohammad (s) was ignorant or was in doubt, he would have to seek those who recite the book before, the Messengers sent before him, the family of the reminder and if Mohammad (s) was a forger, still, can't God having sealed his heart in that case, destroy his falsehood in that regard and all falsehood on earth and confirm the truth with his words.

Guidance of God is the guidance. You can't rely on people or make your own religion or mix up innovation with God's commands and guidance.

You either want to be guided by God and come completely submissive, or you better off just embracing no shame and living life - because this neither sincerity to God nor embracing the world fully, this neutral stance of no where, not loving God's chosen but reciting Quran still and admiring Jihaad of companions but not loving striving in God's path yourself, it won't be forgiven.

We better off doing porn videos - then deceiving ourselves with purity and piety while hating God and his chosen and believers truly in secret, though we are so far deluded we don't realize ourselves.

I chose not to be direct here for a reason.  There is a verse to people of the book "Do you hate us only because we believe in what is revealed to us and that most of you are transgressors".

If Quran teaches about Ahlulbayt (a), that is one strike, but the latter strike if obvious.   Sunnis are obsessed with the fact if Shiites are correct, majority would be transgressors and hate Shiites for this reason.

Yet, you don't care if Christians consider you disbelievers or Jews that you follow a fake Prophet or any other religion, your obsession with Shiites, stems from the tree of hell and this envy towards believer is because of our love of Ahlulbayt (a) and Ahlulbayt (a) are not the problem, but rather, the oppressive people have a problem with God's signs and proofs, and so in the hidden hidden, it's rebellion towards God. And this is God's words about polytheists who loved Mohammad (a) as a person before his revelation "...for it's not you who they deny but rather the oppressors reject the signs of God...."
"Is it so bad, then, to be misunderstood? Pythagoras was misunderstood, and Socrates, and Jesus, and Luther, and Copernicus, and Galileo, and Newton, and every pure and wise spirit that ever took flesh. To be great is to be misunderstood.” ― Ralph Waldo Emerson, Self-Reliance

Rationalist

Re: Kamal al Haydari on Takfir on non-12ers
« Reply #15 on: November 03, 2020, 04:59:59 AM »

Yet, you don't care if Christians consider you disbelievers or Jews that you follow a fake Prophet or any other religion, your obsession with Shiites, stems from the tree of hell and this envy towards believer is because of our love of Ahlulbayt (a) and Ahlulbayt (a) are not the problem, but rather, the oppressive people have a problem with God's signs and proofs, and so in the hidden hidden, it's rebellion towards God. And this is God's words about polytheists who loved Mohammad (a) as a person before his revelation "...for it's not you who they deny but rather the oppressors reject the signs of God...."
You did exactly what I mentioned above. You played the victim card, and used it to cover up the takfir against any non-12er Shia. What oppressive Sunnis do not binding on every Sunni because the Quran says 'A man shall not take the burden of another sins." As for Christians and Jews, they are still considered people of book even if they do no follow our Prophet (pbuh). In the end, it is Allah who will judge them.

Indeed, those who have believed and those who were Jews and the Sabeans and the Christians and the Magians and those who associated with Allah - Allah will judge between them on the Day of Resurrection. Indeed Allah is, over all things, Witness (22:17)

Soccer

Re: Kamal al Haydari on Takfir on non-12ers
« Reply #16 on: November 03, 2020, 06:24:05 PM »
If Imam Ali (a) down to the Mahdi (a) are not appointed by God and we follow them as leaders of guidance appointed by God, it would be disbelief, in the same way,  people following a fake Prophet are disbelievers.

And if Imam Ali (a) down to the Mahdi (a) are appointed by God, it would be disbelief to not believe in them, as obviously both Quran and Sunnah in this case would've proven them.

This notion that we have to accept other sects or each other as believers, doesn't make sense. As for the people of the book, there is conditions on which you can marry.

(1) They cannot be sexually active before marriage and not having repented for it (so most of the people of the book in this day and age are forbidden to be married on this basis alone).
(2) They cannot be calling to you to evil deeds and a life that leads away from God (so most of the people of the book also forbidden on this basis)
(3) While accepting Mohammad (s) is not a requirement, they cannot mock God's signs and show hatred to him, they must be open minded, and Quran has allowed marriage to the people of the book at a time when Islam became established and allowed on the basis that people are allow to marry having not reached the truth but both on the quest to truth or find the truth and discuss the truth together.

The people of the book are disbelievers if they reject Mohammad (s) though. It's clear in Quran, it's vividly clear.

More then that, they are disbelievers if they don't give Mohammad (s) a chance and don't give Quran a chance.  Marriage of those given the book is in the discretion of believers, but they should keep in mind other verses that put conditions to that and who marriage is forbidden to.

If you know a Christian or a Jew have no sincerity to God and belittle Quran and Mohammad (s), you cannot marry them, as there are clear verses, that disbelievers are forbidden to be married.

People of the book - true, not all are disbelievers, same with all sects of Islam and in fact all religions - there are seekers of truth in all of them.  However, God allowed people of the book, because we can find still Mohammad (s) in the Torah and Gospels and books between that, in a clear manner, and guide others who rely on those books to Mohammad (s) and show them the Quran corrections.

However, if you sense they don't care and are disbelievers and love the dunya over the next world, you cannot marry them because they are disbelievers.

Shiites are allowed to marry Sunnis but they must do it on discretion that they are not arrogant towards the proofs of Ahlulbayt (a) in either Quran or Sunnah.

Divorce even is required at the moment they sense hatred towards Ahlulbayt (a) being chosen by God if they had married a Sunni.

There is a category of those who are seeking the truth and have not found a way to reject or believe in it. This concept is known as mustafeen. However, people with access to knowledge and means to seek it, are not excused. They weren't excused back in a time when they would be required to travel in the earth, let alone now, when you can access all this knowledge through the internet.

There are some poor people in the world, their struggle is just to find a meal a day, there are people without means still, those are musatafeen.

People in the west over all cannot be said to be mustafeen.  And Muslims with access to internet and have time but don't research are not excused at all.

And certainly, Quran is not open to interpretation, it contextualizes it's verses and is a clear book, therefore, if someone relies on ambiguity made in their head over it's clear insights and bright signs and don't let it contextualize itself through itself, then that person let caprice and Iblis win over his soul, and the best book of guidance couldn't guide him, the clearest of all books, the best proofs, and insights, and a book which leaves nothing open to interpretation but it's own words explains it's own signs in details and clarifies itself, then yes, they are a person bound to hell forever.

The Quran when it says "Ulil-Amr" is clear. When it says "Al-Qurba" in 42:23 it is clear.  People who want to play games with language and make unclear God's book are disbelievers of the worst kind.

"Is it so bad, then, to be misunderstood? Pythagoras was misunderstood, and Socrates, and Jesus, and Luther, and Copernicus, and Galileo, and Newton, and every pure and wise spirit that ever took flesh. To be great is to be misunderstood.” ― Ralph Waldo Emerson, Self-Reliance

Rationalist

Re: Kamal al Haydari on Takfir on non-12ers
« Reply #17 on: November 03, 2020, 07:57:18 PM »
If Imam Ali (a) down to the Mahdi (a) are not appointed by God and we follow them as leaders of guidance appointed by God, it would be disbelief, in the same way,  people following a fake Prophet are disbelievers.
Same case with Prophet Isa(as). He is not son of God. Of course Christians are much more extreme. Yet in the Quran, Prophet Isa(as) still asks Allah to forgive his ummah. What happens after is up to Allah.


Quote
And if Imam Ali (a) down to the Mahdi (a) are appointed by God, it would be disbelief to not believe in them, as obviously both Quran and Sunnah in this case would've proven them.
Why did he became the 4th Calipah? The people who gave him bayah did not do it on the basis on divine appointment. Were they kaffirs. Did Muawiyah win a war before it even started?

Quote
This notion that we have to accept other sects or each other as believers, doesn't make sense. As for the people of the book, there is conditions on which you can marry.
It not up to us to decide. Its Allah's judgement. In fact, Imam Jafar in Al Kafi condemns Zurara for making takfir on Sunnis.







Soccer

Re: Kamal al Haydari on Takfir on non-12ers
« Reply #18 on: November 04, 2020, 05:54:48 PM »
Same case with Prophet Isa(as). He is not son of God. Of course Christians are much more extreme. Yet in the Quran, Prophet Isa(as) still asks Allah to forgive his ummah. What happens after is up to Allah.

Where does it say he will ask forgiveness for his people, the statement is "if you forgive them" and Isa (a) knew they would not be forgiven as in his own words "whoever associates with God, God has forbidden him paradise and their destination is the fire", he is saying, it's not up him but up to God, so he is not going to tell God to curse them and put them in hell, when really they are God servants, and so he forgives them, it's up to him, but Isa (a) knows for sure with no an element of doubt, that their destiny is hell those who worshipped other then God.



Quote
Why did he became the 4th Calipah?

This is explained in Nahjul balagha, and you know why.



Quote
The people who gave him bayah did not do it on the basis on divine appointment. Were they kaffirs.



If anyone did, then yes.

Quote
Did Muawiyah win a war before it even started?

Yes he did, it started near the end of the Prophet (s) life mostly, but through out also, in which hypocrites and disbelievers strived to make unclear Quran and hide Sunnah, and fabricate Sunnah, and it got worse when Fatima (a) clarification of Quran was abandoned for a lie against the Prophet (a) that was disproven, and the sorcery of the two sorcerers gained sway, and the Quran put under locks of sorcery with the Yajuj ruling and Majuj infiltrating.

Its a wonder how even in this century, people don't see Ali (a) and his family (a) in Quran.  It's not natural at all, since Quran by linguistic norms, is very clear in designating them. The sorcery of two sorcerers was not only passed on, it was increased, and more locks put to play, and the sorcery has gotten stronger on humanity and the way to defeat it forgotten.

Quote
It not up to us to decide. Its Allah's judgement. In fact, Imam Jafar in Al Kafi condemns Zurara for making takfir on Sunnis.

I know the hadith you are talking about. But it's the case that those who recite Quran and don't get guided by it are not believers or God-fearing but deceive themselves.  Those who believe when they recite God's proofs and insights and signs - do not remain blind to them.  Blindness is temporary for the believer and sight is temporary for the hypocrite and disbeliever - both their destiny is hell forever because they turned away and sought the other direction and whatever remain of little knowledge they had, they made big, and whatever evil and big ignorance they had, they thought little of, and they mixed unclean sources with their clean, ambiguity with what is clear, falsehood with truth, and destroyed themselves by mixing everything up in confusion and not seeking mental clarity or guidance.
"Is it so bad, then, to be misunderstood? Pythagoras was misunderstood, and Socrates, and Jesus, and Luther, and Copernicus, and Galileo, and Newton, and every pure and wise spirit that ever took flesh. To be great is to be misunderstood.” ― Ralph Waldo Emerson, Self-Reliance

Rationalist

Re: Kamal al Haydari on Takfir on non-12ers
« Reply #19 on: November 04, 2020, 09:09:48 PM »
Where does it say he will ask forgiveness for his people, the statement is "if you forgive them" and Isa (a) knew they would not be forgiven as in his own words "whoever associates with God, God has forbidden him paradise and their destination is the fire", he is saying, it's not up him but up to God, so he is not going to tell God to curse them and put them in hell, when really they are God servants, and so he forgives them, it's up to him, but Isa (a) knows for sure with no an element of doubt, that their destiny is hell those who worshipped other then God.
We don't know the conclusion because there are two statements he made. If already knew the answer then there would be no need to make two statements. Also with their shirk the Quran says they are the closest to the believers.
If You punish them, they belong to You after all.1 But if You forgive them, You are surely the Almighty, All-Wise.”(5:118)

Quote
This is explained in Nahjul balagha, and you know why.
I don't interpet with the context of divine appointment. You on the other hand do. The Imam did not say this bayah on the basis of nass.


 

Quote
If anyone did, then yes.
So they fight on his side, die and still go to hell?




Quote
I know the hadith you are talking about. But it's the case that those who recite Quran and don't get guided by it are not believers or God-fearing but deceive themselves.  Those who believe when they recite God's proofs and insights and signs - do not remain blind to them.  Blindness is temporary for the believer and sight is temporary for the hypocrite and disbeliever - both their destiny is hell forever because they turned away and sought the other direction and whatever remain of little knowledge they had, they made big, and whatever evil and big ignorance they had, they thought little of, and they mixed unclean sources with their clean, ambiguity with what is clear, falsehood with truth, and destroyed themselves by mixing everything up in confusion and not seeking mental clarity or guidance.

That's why Zurara got angry. Imam Jafar said they can go to jannah.

 

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