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Sunni Shia Discussion Forum => General Sunni-Shia => Topic started by: Bolani Muslim on May 01, 2015, 01:57:54 AM

Title: Kamal al Haydari on Takfir on non-12ers
Post by: Bolani Muslim on May 01, 2015, 01:57:54 AM
Salaam, I did my best to translate and Inshallah I hope I made no mistakes.

Translation:
Dear friends, this is good so hear me out.
No 12er shia aalim will find a hukm that didn't give kufr statement on none besides shias (all non-shias are kafir) WITHOUT EXCEPTION, WITHOUT EXCEPTION.
The only difference between Shias are: Some gave kufr hukm against eachother in appearance and reality and some against others with opposing views in Islam.
But against Baatin All give kufr statement against them and their is ijma (consensus).
No Issues their! My dears, what is the origin of this kufr hukm? What's the basis of takfir?:
It is that imamate from the opinion of Shia, or Usool from 'Usool e Deen' (roots of deen) or from the roots of our mazhab.
And because of this dears, this belief: Meaning that the method of takfeer in the school of 'Ahlul Bayt' isn't chopping off hands or changing out main beliefs, and until shias (remove) imamat from usool e deen or usool e mazhab or importance of importance in our mazhab and deen, then the takfeer on ALL others stands and their is NO other way.
And the way of takfir in shia religion is clear cut.
Deers (not the animal) what I just said is authentically shia.
The book 'صاحب الجواهر' Volume 22 page 62 talks about people with beliefs outside the fold of 12er shiaism: With a hadees that's frequent about the 'others' with a frequently occurring hadees that's final says that: They (Ahlul Bayt?) did lanat on Ahlul Sunnah and said abusive words to them, and abused Ahlul Sunnah and considers the Ahlul Sunnah as KAFIR, because they (Ahlul Sunnah) are the Zoroastrians (fire-worshipper) of the ummah, and are moer evil than the Christians, and are as filthy as DOGS.
When the Ahlul Sunnah say stuff like this, then what usually goes through your mind?
I don't want this year's actions of al-Qaeda and Daesh and send out takfir statements. Never! Never! However, when you read what the Shias believe about them (sunnis), Wallah, Shias should read these statements and they (shia) won't know what to do!!!
Shias have given a religious ruling that Sunnis are Najis kafirs, and see Sunnis as at a lower level then Christians and Jews.
While we're the ummah of Mohammad (saw) and the Quran says: If someone assaults you, then someone (abuse?) them.
Now that we've given the verdict that Ahlul Sunnah are najis kafirs and we are to do lanat on Sunnis and that they are worse then Christians and Jews!
Title: Re: Kamal al Haydari on Takfir on non-12ers
Post by: MuslimAnswers on May 01, 2015, 02:30:05 AM
^

I do not know Farsi, but the translation will need some improvement (like for the term "Dear ones", some other term will have to be used).
Title: Re: Kamal al Haydari on Takfir on non-12ers
Post by: Bolani Muslim on May 01, 2015, 05:14:26 AM
'Dear' sounds odd, but I don't think theirs any English equivalent.
Title: Re: Kamal al Haydari on Takfir on non-12ers
Post by: Farid on May 01, 2015, 05:37:00 AM
Pretty harsh video. I don't think i've seen Kamal like this before.

I don't watch much TV or youtube so i wouldn't know if he's usually like this.
Title: Re: Kamal al Haydari on Takfir on non-12ers
Post by: MuslimAnswers on May 01, 2015, 11:34:45 AM
'Dear' sounds odd, but I don't think theirs any English equivalent.

Hmm, you should stick to translations of 'originally Farsi' videos to English, since a twice translated video or text will have problems, and will decrease the effect of the work.
Title: Re: Kamal al Haydari on Takfir on non-12ers
Post by: Hani on May 01, 2015, 09:02:39 PM
Sahib al-Jawahir means the author of al-Jawahir, he's Ayatullat al-Jawahiri and his book is Jawahir al-Kalam.
Title: Re: Kamal al Haydari on Takfir on non-12ers
Post by: MuslimK on May 01, 2015, 09:48:29 PM
Powerful Video!

AM should upload this on this their sites ASAP. This topic of Takfir is very important especially nowadays.
Title: Re: Kamal al Haydari on Takfir on non-12ers
Post by: Rationalist on May 03, 2015, 05:16:48 AM
Awesome! One 12er Shia brother was telling me that Sunnis do takfir on Shias too. I told him the ones  that do are open about it. Unlike the 12ers who on  inside consider Sunnis kaffir, but on the outside smile and call you brother.
Title: Re: Kamal al Haydari on Takfir on non-12ers
Post by: Bolani Muslim on May 05, 2015, 07:45:57 PM
I made my first video and I'd like to give thanks to Abu Muslim Khoraisani and Kalemah TV :D
Title: Re: Kamal al Haydari on Takfir on non-12ers
Post by: MuslimAnswers on May 06, 2015, 06:38:37 PM
^

We have to consider the motive behind these statements: For the Sunnis, we are, as everyone knows, quite open about declaring the Kufr of those who are open in their disbelief. If a person is a Munaafiq, we cannot declare Kufr, since he is doing the actions of Islam and harboring hatred for Islam inside his heart, but we only judge based on the apparent.

But for the Shia, if he says that we are 'Muslims in this world', then the belief in 'Ali's (RAA) Imaamah is a secret doctrine and/or a probabilistic one. It cannot be said that the belief in Imaamah is obligatory, and yet the one who openly rejects it knowingly is a 'hidden non-Muslim', precisely because of the open nature of his disbelief about an indubitable doctrine.

(It could also be that the double-speak could not be kept up: One can only scratch one's head when, throughout their books, the Shia calls the beliefs of the Sunnis and the leaders of the Sunnis as Nasibis and Hell-bound for rejecting their 'Infallibles', then closes it with 'an appeal for our Sunni brothers to reconsider their beliefs'...something has got to give.)
Title: Re: Kamal al Haydari on Takfir on non-12ers
Post by: matpau_83 on May 07, 2015, 08:48:18 AM
This is like clear cut proof of their deviant creed towards others sects. But i'm pretty sure when i post this video to any shi'i, the first thing that come out is, it's not a full video bla bla bla, this is wahabi propoganda, bla bla bla. I think Haydari above is trying to diffuse the tension of conflicting texts and fatwa between classical shi'i scholars and 'contemporary' shi'i scholar regarding 'unity with sunnis'. its like nuri tabarsi all over again. u cover one hole, two new leaks come out..
Title: Re: Kamal al Haydari on Takfir on non-12ers
Post by: MuslimK on July 18, 2015, 12:31:41 AM
Here is the full lecture from the official site of Ayatollah Kamal Haydari in case Shias claim these are taken out of context:

(Last 10 minutes)

http://alhaydari.com/ar/2014/09/54415/

Title: Re: Kamal al Haydari on Takfir on non-12ers
Post by: Ebn Hussein on November 01, 2020, 02:12:52 AM
English translation:

Title: Re: Kamal al Haydari on Takfir on non-12ers
Post by: Rationalist on November 01, 2020, 06:09:01 PM
If 12er Shia accept this, they will still talk about how Shias are being killed by Sunnis, and how more Sunnis are takfiri. When it comes to them, we are supposed to accept that they are created from a special clay, and how they are the only momins in the world.
Title: Re: Kamal al Haydari on Takfir on non-12ers
Post by: Soccer on November 02, 2020, 03:18:58 PM
Most of non-Muslim propaganda that are not against laws of Islam or life of Mohammad (s) - are about our stance against disbelievers in general.

As Muslims, we make a compact with God, that we will submit to his guidance and accept his chosen ones, this is the heart of religion in all times.  Books always got corrupted in the past, but if God sends a chosen one, people must listen and given them a chance.

There is different levels of hell, but when children of Israel had all they been given, and they believed some of the book while disbelieved in what they didn't want to believe, they became like Pharaoh's people, the lowest of the low in fire, and the most severe punishment in the next world awaits them.

The same is explicitly said about hypocrites in Quran, they are of the lowest fire. And Mohammad (s) said that most of the hypocrites are among the reciters of Quran.

And the Quran talked about sorcery, hard hearts, blindness, and contextualization and what happens when sorcery and hard hearts combine - is blind taking verses out of their place, whether heedless or not, the latter (not) being a bigger evil, but heedlessly is not allowed either.

And attributing God what we don't of his religion won't be forgiven by so many verses of Quran.

And not seeing the truth and hating it, despite the purpose of Quran so we understand it and rely on it and are guided by it, doesn't have an excuse.

And what kills the excuse even further is that clear message of Mohammad (s) that dispels any dark magic surrounding his Nubuwa (Quran reception).

And Nubuwa is two things, it's Quran that we read, and it's Quran we have yet to read in the sense, there is higher levels of "Quran" in understanding, and Nubuwa covers reception at levels we perceive and levels we don't perceive.

And Sunnah is more comprehensive then Resalah, Resalah is what is clear and manifest to society in general, in clear terms, but Sunnah contains secrets too, and the secrets is not because Mohammad (s) doesn't want to convey us knowledge, rather, the constraint on his chest, is due to what people would say and the propaganda they relied on.

And Musa (a) looked to the one God will send, but Allah (swt) told him you have Harun (a) per the Torah, and this shows a lot and shows Mohammad (s) and his family (a) in the Torah, and the Mahdi (a), and if you keep this in mind, you will see that God reminds through the prayer of Musa (a) about Harun (a) in many places, how Mohammad (s) and his family (a) are still in the Torah today.

And it's clear - as the one who God will send to the whole world is not going to repair the physical tongue of Moses (a) and make him speak clearly in that regard, but it was a metaphor, and expressed differently in other places for example "they put their hands on their mouths" - showing societies made it impossible for Messengers (a) to deliver the truth.

And Ahlulbayt is not new, Quran shows, there has always been an Ahlulbayt to the extent if let's for sake of argument Mohammad (s) was ignorant or was in doubt, he would have to seek those who recite the book before, the Messengers sent before him, the family of the reminder and if Mohammad (s) was a forger, still, can't God having sealed his heart in that case, destroy his falsehood in that regard and all falsehood on earth and confirm the truth with his words.

Guidance of God is the guidance. You can't rely on people or make your own religion or mix up innovation with God's commands and guidance.

You either want to be guided by God and come completely submissive, or you better off just embracing no shame and living life - because this neither sincerity to God nor embracing the world fully, this neutral stance of no where, not loving God's chosen but reciting Quran still and admiring Jihaad of companions but not loving striving in God's path yourself, it won't be forgiven.

We better off doing porn videos - then deceiving ourselves with purity and piety while hating God and his chosen and believers truly in secret, though we are so far deluded we don't realize ourselves.

I chose not to be direct here for a reason.  There is a verse to people of the book "Do you hate us only because we believe in what is revealed to us and that most of you are transgressors".

If Quran teaches about Ahlulbayt (a), that is one strike, but the latter strike if obvious.   Sunnis are obsessed with the fact if Shiites are correct, majority would be transgressors and hate Shiites for this reason.

Yet, you don't care if Christians consider you disbelievers or Jews that you follow a fake Prophet or any other religion, your obsession with Shiites, stems from the tree of hell and this envy towards believer is because of our love of Ahlulbayt (a) and Ahlulbayt (a) are not the problem, but rather, the oppressive people have a problem with God's signs and proofs, and so in the hidden hidden, it's rebellion towards God. And this is God's words about polytheists who loved Mohammad (a) as a person before his revelation "...for it's not you who they deny but rather the oppressors reject the signs of God...."
Title: Re: Kamal al Haydari on Takfir on non-12ers
Post by: Rationalist on November 03, 2020, 01:59:59 AM

Yet, you don't care if Christians consider you disbelievers or Jews that you follow a fake Prophet or any other religion, your obsession with Shiites, stems from the tree of hell and this envy towards believer is because of our love of Ahlulbayt (a) and Ahlulbayt (a) are not the problem, but rather, the oppressive people have a problem with God's signs and proofs, and so in the hidden hidden, it's rebellion towards God. And this is God's words about polytheists who loved Mohammad (a) as a person before his revelation "...for it's not you who they deny but rather the oppressors reject the signs of God...."
You did exactly what I mentioned above. You played the victim card, and used it to cover up the takfir against any non-12er Shia. What oppressive Sunnis do not binding on every Sunni because the Quran says 'A man shall not take the burden of another sins." As for Christians and Jews, they are still considered people of book even if they do no follow our Prophet (pbuh). In the end, it is Allah who will judge them.

Indeed, those who have believed and those who were Jews and the Sabeans and the Christians and the Magians and those who associated with Allah - Allah will judge between them on the Day of Resurrection. Indeed Allah is, over all things, Witness (22:17)
Title: Re: Kamal al Haydari on Takfir on non-12ers
Post by: Soccer on November 03, 2020, 03:24:05 PM
If Imam Ali (a) down to the Mahdi (a) are not appointed by God and we follow them as leaders of guidance appointed by God, it would be disbelief, in the same way,  people following a fake Prophet are disbelievers.

And if Imam Ali (a) down to the Mahdi (a) are appointed by God, it would be disbelief to not believe in them, as obviously both Quran and Sunnah in this case would've proven them.

This notion that we have to accept other sects or each other as believers, doesn't make sense. As for the people of the book, there is conditions on which you can marry.

(1) They cannot be sexually active before marriage and not having repented for it (so most of the people of the book in this day and age are forbidden to be married on this basis alone).
(2) They cannot be calling to you to evil deeds and a life that leads away from God (so most of the people of the book also forbidden on this basis)
(3) While accepting Mohammad (s) is not a requirement, they cannot mock God's signs and show hatred to him, they must be open minded, and Quran has allowed marriage to the people of the book at a time when Islam became established and allowed on the basis that people are allow to marry having not reached the truth but both on the quest to truth or find the truth and discuss the truth together.

The people of the book are disbelievers if they reject Mohammad (s) though. It's clear in Quran, it's vividly clear.

More then that, they are disbelievers if they don't give Mohammad (s) a chance and don't give Quran a chance.  Marriage of those given the book is in the discretion of believers, but they should keep in mind other verses that put conditions to that and who marriage is forbidden to.

If you know a Christian or a Jew have no sincerity to God and belittle Quran and Mohammad (s), you cannot marry them, as there are clear verses, that disbelievers are forbidden to be married.

People of the book - true, not all are disbelievers, same with all sects of Islam and in fact all religions - there are seekers of truth in all of them.  However, God allowed people of the book, because we can find still Mohammad (s) in the Torah and Gospels and books between that, in a clear manner, and guide others who rely on those books to Mohammad (s) and show them the Quran corrections.

However, if you sense they don't care and are disbelievers and love the dunya over the next world, you cannot marry them because they are disbelievers.

Shiites are allowed to marry Sunnis but they must do it on discretion that they are not arrogant towards the proofs of Ahlulbayt (a) in either Quran or Sunnah.

Divorce even is required at the moment they sense hatred towards Ahlulbayt (a) being chosen by God if they had married a Sunni.

There is a category of those who are seeking the truth and have not found a way to reject or believe in it. This concept is known as mustafeen. However, people with access to knowledge and means to seek it, are not excused. They weren't excused back in a time when they would be required to travel in the earth, let alone now, when you can access all this knowledge through the internet.

There are some poor people in the world, their struggle is just to find a meal a day, there are people without means still, those are musatafeen.

People in the west over all cannot be said to be mustafeen.  And Muslims with access to internet and have time but don't research are not excused at all.

And certainly, Quran is not open to interpretation, it contextualizes it's verses and is a clear book, therefore, if someone relies on ambiguity made in their head over it's clear insights and bright signs and don't let it contextualize itself through itself, then that person let caprice and Iblis win over his soul, and the best book of guidance couldn't guide him, the clearest of all books, the best proofs, and insights, and a book which leaves nothing open to interpretation but it's own words explains it's own signs in details and clarifies itself, then yes, they are a person bound to hell forever.

The Quran when it says "Ulil-Amr" is clear. When it says "Al-Qurba" in 42:23 it is clear.  People who want to play games with language and make unclear God's book are disbelievers of the worst kind.

Title: Re: Kamal al Haydari on Takfir on non-12ers
Post by: Rationalist on November 03, 2020, 04:57:18 PM
If Imam Ali (a) down to the Mahdi (a) are not appointed by God and we follow them as leaders of guidance appointed by God, it would be disbelief, in the same way,  people following a fake Prophet are disbelievers.
Same case with Prophet Isa(as). He is not son of God. Of course Christians are much more extreme. Yet in the Quran, Prophet Isa(as) still asks Allah to forgive his ummah. What happens after is up to Allah.


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And if Imam Ali (a) down to the Mahdi (a) are appointed by God, it would be disbelief to not believe in them, as obviously both Quran and Sunnah in this case would've proven them.
Why did he became the 4th Calipah? The people who gave him bayah did not do it on the basis on divine appointment. Were they kaffirs. Did Muawiyah win a war before it even started?

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This notion that we have to accept other sects or each other as believers, doesn't make sense. As for the people of the book, there is conditions on which you can marry.
It not up to us to decide. Its Allah's judgement. In fact, Imam Jafar in Al Kafi condemns Zurara for making takfir on Sunnis.






Title: Re: Kamal al Haydari on Takfir on non-12ers
Post by: Soccer on November 04, 2020, 02:54:48 PM
Same case with Prophet Isa(as). He is not son of God. Of course Christians are much more extreme. Yet in the Quran, Prophet Isa(as) still asks Allah to forgive his ummah. What happens after is up to Allah.

Where does it say he will ask forgiveness for his people, the statement is "if you forgive them" and Isa (a) knew they would not be forgiven as in his own words "whoever associates with God, God has forbidden him paradise and their destination is the fire", he is saying, it's not up him but up to God, so he is not going to tell God to curse them and put them in hell, when really they are God servants, and so he forgives them, it's up to him, but Isa (a) knows for sure with no an element of doubt, that their destiny is hell those who worshipped other then God.



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Why did he became the 4th Calipah?

This is explained in Nahjul balagha, and you know why.



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The people who gave him bayah did not do it on the basis on divine appointment. Were they kaffirs.



If anyone did, then yes.

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Did Muawiyah win a war before it even started?

Yes he did, it started near the end of the Prophet (s) life mostly, but through out also, in which hypocrites and disbelievers strived to make unclear Quran and hide Sunnah, and fabricate Sunnah, and it got worse when Fatima (a) clarification of Quran was abandoned for a lie against the Prophet (a) that was disproven, and the sorcery of the two sorcerers gained sway, and the Quran put under locks of sorcery with the Yajuj ruling and Majuj infiltrating.

Its a wonder how even in this century, people don't see Ali (a) and his family (a) in Quran.  It's not natural at all, since Quran by linguistic norms, is very clear in designating them. The sorcery of two sorcerers was not only passed on, it was increased, and more locks put to play, and the sorcery has gotten stronger on humanity and the way to defeat it forgotten.

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It not up to us to decide. Its Allah's judgement. In fact, Imam Jafar in Al Kafi condemns Zurara for making takfir on Sunnis.

I know the hadith you are talking about. But it's the case that those who recite Quran and don't get guided by it are not believers or God-fearing but deceive themselves.  Those who believe when they recite God's proofs and insights and signs - do not remain blind to them.  Blindness is temporary for the believer and sight is temporary for the hypocrite and disbeliever - both their destiny is hell forever because they turned away and sought the other direction and whatever remain of little knowledge they had, they made big, and whatever evil and big ignorance they had, they thought little of, and they mixed unclean sources with their clean, ambiguity with what is clear, falsehood with truth, and destroyed themselves by mixing everything up in confusion and not seeking mental clarity or guidance.
Title: Re: Kamal al Haydari on Takfir on non-12ers
Post by: Rationalist on November 04, 2020, 06:09:48 PM
Where does it say he will ask forgiveness for his people, the statement is "if you forgive them" and Isa (a) knew they would not be forgiven as in his own words "whoever associates with God, God has forbidden him paradise and their destination is the fire", he is saying, it's not up him but up to God, so he is not going to tell God to curse them and put them in hell, when really they are God servants, and so he forgives them, it's up to him, but Isa (a) knows for sure with no an element of doubt, that their destiny is hell those who worshipped other then God.
We don't know the conclusion because there are two statements he made. If already knew the answer then there would be no need to make two statements. Also with their shirk the Quran says they are the closest to the believers.
If You punish them, they belong to You after all.1 But if You forgive them, You are surely the Almighty, All-Wise.”(5:118)

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This is explained in Nahjul balagha, and you know why.
I don't interpet with the context of divine appointment. You on the other hand do. The Imam did not say this bayah on the basis of nass.


 

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If anyone did, then yes.
So they fight on his side, die and still go to hell?




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I know the hadith you are talking about. But it's the case that those who recite Quran and don't get guided by it are not believers or God-fearing but deceive themselves.  Those who believe when they recite God's proofs and insights and signs - do not remain blind to them.  Blindness is temporary for the believer and sight is temporary for the hypocrite and disbeliever - both their destiny is hell forever because they turned away and sought the other direction and whatever remain of little knowledge they had, they made big, and whatever evil and big ignorance they had, they thought little of, and they mixed unclean sources with their clean, ambiguity with what is clear, falsehood with truth, and destroyed themselves by mixing everything up in confusion and not seeking mental clarity or guidance.

That's why Zurara got angry. Imam Jafar said they can go to jannah.
Title: Re: Kamal al Haydari on Takfir on non-12ers
Post by: Soccer on November 04, 2020, 06:24:13 PM
We don't know the conclusion because there are two statements he made. If already knew the answer then there would be no need to make two statements. Also with their shirk the Quran says they are the closest to the believers.
If You punish them, they belong to You after all.1 But if You forgive them, You are surely the Almighty, All-Wise.”(5:118)

Your argument is there is no other reason to put the two possibilities, but that they are both possible. This is not true, I already gave you a reason, it's due to the fact he wants to say,  I am not a god and I can't even effect your decision in this matter. In fact, it's so clear, that "You are their Lord- and so if you punish them or forgive them, it's up to you, I'm am definitely not a god and rather it's up to you to punish them" - then what does God reply, he says, the truthful will benefit by their truthfulness. 

Shirk is not forgiven, neither inward or outward form.



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I don't interpet with the context of divine appointment. You on the other hand do. The Imam did not say this bayah on the basis of nass.


The truth is not at the mercy of your interpretation and it's clarity is not at the mercy of what you testify to it or not, it's clear regardless, which is why disbelief in it per Quran results in hell.  This especially true for all the reciters of Quran.



 
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So they fight on his side, die and still go to hell?

For sure they would if they didn't believe in his divinely chosen status in the Quran and what he himself emphasized on sermon after sermon.


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That's why Zurara got angry. Imam Jafar said they can go to jannah.

Once again, the Quran talks about something through out it's pages, and you rather follow what we don't know to due away with what we know.

So many clear verses that Shirk is not forgiven, yet, you hold to unclear way of interpreting a verse, a logically fallacy, and pretend all those verses don't exist.

Rejecting Ahlulbayt (a) is disbelief for sure, and more then that, not coming to them, you perish forever and have no chance for guidance in this world or next.

Title: Re: Kamal al Haydari on Takfir on non-12ers
Post by: Rationalist on November 04, 2020, 07:15:29 PM
3 Questions for you:
Why did the Quran ask Muslims to support the Byzantine Empire over the Persian Empire. In your view both are guilty of Helll based shirk?
Why does the Quran says Christians are close to Believers?
Do you believe the Prophet (pbuh) read the Janazah of the Najashi who remained a Christian till death?
Title: Re: Kamal al Haydari on Takfir on non-12ers
Post by: Soccer on November 04, 2020, 08:49:40 PM
(1) Mohammad (s) was not well known and widespread for them to be obligated to accept the message at that point.
(2) That verse has expansion, it says describing those Christians in that area - that when they hear the truth, they accept it and come under Mohammad (s) authority. This is no longer true of Christians today over all.
(3) I'm not aware of what you are talking about and would have to look into it/research.
Title: Re: Kamal al Haydari on Takfir on non-12ers
Post by: Rationalist on November 04, 2020, 09:05:00 PM
(1) Mohammad (s) was not well known and widespread for them to be obligated to accept the message at that point.
But why the support for Byzantine over Persian? They both are mushrik in your view.

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(2) That verse has expansion, it says describing those Christians in that area - that when they hear the truth, they accept it and come under Mohammad (s) authority. This is no longer true of Christians today over all.
It says they will cry. It does not say they will become Muslims.


Title: Re: Kamal al Haydari on Takfir on non-12ers
Post by: Rationalist on November 04, 2020, 09:09:06 PM
For point number 3.
https://youtu.be/VUX7zUKVhOk
Title: Re: Kamal al Haydari on Takfir on non-12ers
Post by: Soccer on November 05, 2020, 04:02:03 PM
But why the support for Byzantine over Persian? They both are mushrik in your view.

The official religion was polytheistic but individuals themselves or society - might have believed in one God and not gone into the trinity too much.  This is one possibility. The second possibility, is that despite their polytheism, the believers before Mohammad (s) came were among the Christian people and so it's a way of God protecting them even though they are surrounded by deviants.

For example, today, the evil USA and Israel hate Muslims in general although they may hate Shiites more due to our political religious stance,  it's a war on Islam in general.   This doesn't mean all Muslims are good or guided, but since believers are found in this community,  we would be happy if Muslims gain upper hand or some power better then their state now.
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It says they will cry. It does not say they will become Muslims.

Actually it says they do accept it and the crying is implied they recognize the truth and then when they convert they are rewarded twice for their deeds, their act of submission before meeting Mohammad (s) (they are rewarded) and then after Mohammad (s) and both times - they are titled "Muslims" as in submitters to God and his guidance.

You keep making arguments out of ignorance - this is while so many verses say if people don't follow God's guidance they go to hell, let alone if they reject Mohammad (s), let alone if they are polytheists.

You ignore what is clear for conjecture you come up with over verses that don't prove your case by you turn to fallacies like argument from ignorance or excluded middle and keep at it like that - instead of turning to what Quran clearly says, you resort to ambiguity in your head.
Title: Re: Kamal al Haydari on Takfir on non-12ers
Post by: Rationalist on November 05, 2020, 04:56:22 PM
The official religion was polytheistic but individuals themselves or society - might have believed in one God and not gone into the trinity too much.  This is one possibility. The second possibility, is that despite their polytheism, the believers before Mohammad (s) came were among the Christian people and so it's a way of God protecting them even though they are surrounded by deviants.
Yes, also in Ethiopia the Muslims were sent for protection. The ruler cried when Imam Ali's own brother Jafar read the verses. He didn't become a follower of Prophet Muhammad(s).
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For example, today, the evil USA and Israel hate Muslims in general although they may hate Shiites more due to our political religious stance,  it's a war on Islam in general.   This doesn't mean all Muslims are good or guided, but since believers are found in this community,  we would be happy if Muslims gain upper hand or some power better then their state now.
Actually it says they do accept it and the crying is implied they recognize the truth and then when they convert they are rewarded twice for their deeds, their act of submission before meeting Mohammad (s) (they are rewarded) and then after Mohammad (s) and both times - they are titled "Muslims" as in submitters to God and his guidance.
Putin says these Christians exist even today.
https://youtu.be/10cDyeIRF3k
https://youtu.be/7bSAB5OPkwQ



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You keep making arguments out of ignorance - this is while so many verses say if people don't follow God's guidance they go to hell, let alone if they reject Mohammad (s), let alone if they are polytheists.

You ignore what is clear for conjecture you come up with over verses that don't prove your case by you turn to fallacies like argument from ignorance or excluded middle and keep at it like that - instead of turning to what Quran clearly says, you resort to ambiguity in your head.


I believe those verses apply to everyone. There are so many Muslims in both Shia and Sunni included who work with jinns and belong to such evil bloodlines. I posted a clip where a Christian women talks about these as the Bani Isreali who mixed their bloodline with sahirs and became corrupt.
Title: Re: Kamal al Haydari on Takfir on non-12ers
Post by: Soccer on November 05, 2020, 05:03:32 PM
Yes, also in Ethiopia the Muslims were sent for protection. The ruler cried when Imam Ali's own brother Jafar read the verses. He didn't become a follower of Prophet Muhammad(s).Putin says these Christians exist even today.

I can't verify either way, but I can verify that the Quran says about the people closest in love to believers in that time, would and did convert when became aware of God's signs and proofs and when it was recited to them, came to Mohammad (s) and said why would they not as they always hope God would enter them among the righteous people or be on on their side (two ways of seeing that in Arabic).



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I believe those verses apply to everyone. There are so many Muslims in both Shia and Sunni included who work with jinns and belong to such evil bloodlines. I posted a clip where a Christian women talks about these as the Bani Isreali who mixed their bloodline with sahirs and became corrupt.


It's necessary to testify to Ahlulbayt (a) at least in heart (if Taqiya is needed, you don't have to outside) to be guided, but it doesn't mean if you testify to them outwardly or think you recognize their position and God's favor through them that you are guided.

Mohamad (s) is a door of faith, but hypocrites deceive themselves when they testify to him. The same is true of 12 Imams (a) and Fatima (a).

Just as doing Salah outwardly is necessary to ascend to God, but it doesn't mean if you do it outwardly, you weren't heedless in it or did the proper job inwardly and that it brings you closer to God.

Rejecting God's guidance is not acceptable, and it's further, not coming to it when you have circumstance in which you can search it out and strive for it and find it, is not acceptable.


Title: Re: Kamal al Haydari on Takfir on non-12ers
Post by: Rationalist on November 05, 2020, 05:51:47 PM
I can't verify either way, but I can verify that the Quran says about the people closest in love to believers in that time, would and did convert when became aware of God's signs and proofs and when it was recited to them, came to Mohammad (s) and said why would they not as they always hope God would enter them among the righteous people or be on on their side (two ways of seeing that in Arabic).
Who are those people who converted from Christianity to Islam in those times?



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It's necessary to testify to Ahlulbayt (a) at least in heart (if Taqiya is needed, you don't have to outside) to be guided, but it doesn't mean if you testify to them outwardly or think you recognize their position and God's favor through them that you are guided.

Mohamad (s) is a door of faith, but hypocrites deceive themselves when they testify to him. The same is true of 12 Imams (a) and Fatima (a).

Just as doing Salah outwardly is necessary to ascend to God, but it doesn't mean if you do it outwardly, you weren't heedless in it or did the proper job inwardly and that it brings you closer to God.

Rejecting God's guidance is not acceptable, and it's further, not coming to it when you have circumstance in which you can search it out and strive for it and find it, is not acceptable.




Here is a Shia professor who says magic is halaal.

https://fb.watch/1zZ1IV7HpE/

I have come across 12er Shia jinns from Safavid era and some came from Pakistan during ruqyah.

Title: Re: Kamal al Haydari on Takfir on non-12ers
Post by: Soccer on November 05, 2020, 07:23:36 PM
Who are those people who converted from Christianity to Islam in those times?



Here is a Shia professor who says magic is halaal.

https://fb.watch/1zZ1IV7HpE/

I have come across 12er Shia jinns from Safavid era and some came from Pakistan during ruqyah.

You haven't addressed what I said in either of those, and there is no reason for me to really even respond but just to inform you,  you always keep moving goal posts and side track proofs and never prove what you say and never attempt to.

If you have a point make it.  Don't ask questions as if you have a point, when you never do prove your point, but constantly are proven to have none with your questions at all but a fallacy in your head or misunderstanding.

Prove your point, come with proofs. This is how you have a dialogue.  To not try to make a dialogue by just responding by what has no substance or proof.

That is unfair, when proofs are presented you just reply and don't address what has been proven on certainty. 



Title: Re: Kamal al Haydari on Takfir on non-12ers
Post by: Rationalist on November 05, 2020, 09:00:06 PM
You haven't addressed what I said in either of those, and there is no reason for me to really even respond but just to inform you,  you always keep moving goal posts and side track proofs and never prove what you say and never attempt to.

That is because you have  already made up mind about takfir. To me momin exist within the people of the book. The Prophet Muhammad(s) included the Jews to be part of the Ummah as part of his state policy. The real issue within all sects and ummah  is that they are in the minority. The Quran punishes hose who sin and Muslims are not except those verses.

As for the 12ers I happy with scholars like Kamal Hyderi, Fadalullah, Asif Mohseni, Jawad Naqwi and others who went against the takfiri views of the 12er Shia.
Title: Re: Kamal al Haydari on Takfir on non-12ers
Post by: Soccer on November 08, 2020, 05:29:02 PM
Salam


There are verses that show, those who truly believe in the next world, believe in the Quran. There are verses that show those who truly believe in God, will believe in God's Ayat and not disbelieve in them.  And there are plenty of verses that show, those who truly believe in all of the book, will be guided by it to the straight path and it will become vividly clear to them, it's proofs and signs that it is. 

These verses are understood, that if a person has the means to be guided and believes in God, God will guide his heart.

There are exceptions to the rule, those without power to believe or disbelieve, but keep in mind that even in that time, as hard as it was to travel, the Quran showed if they can travel, they had to search out God's Messengers on earth and come to God and his Messenger.  The fact, if they were traveling and searching and never found it and death came to them, they get rewarded by God.

In this day and age, it just takes a little time off your day to research what the sent ones by God have brought to humanity and research their words a long with reflecting over holy books and researching religion, is not the daunting task it was in the past.

It's MUCH EASIER to research religions right now and even be aware of the disputes and differences and build methodology of knowing what is true and what is false.

There are people without even access to clear water, let alone means to know religions out there, let alone see past the darkness of Islam as is, and see what Islam was meant to be, in this day and age. These people are the exception, they can be of any religion and God will mostly likely forgive them, as long as they don't murder etc, you know what I mean.


There also a case of a certain people who are neither good or evil, but are living in a place where their affair is totally in God's hand and no one knows their fate, not even the witness of our time, who sees their deeds, but rather, their inner secret despite his witnessing deeds in unseen forms - they are still so hidden, not even the Imam (a) of our time knows their fate.  The thing with these people, if the trials don't make them shift one or the other in this world,  it is said, there will be trials for them on the day of judgment and so their test is not done even the life after death doesn't complete their trial.

This is where people are exception to the rule.

Another thing to mention is there levels of hell. Stubborn denial or hypocrites of Muslims who have proofs but don't apply their knowledge, is the lowest fire gate way.

But among the gateways although much less evil, is choosing never to give the ones sent by God a chance to guide you, and never giving Gods' book a chance to guide you, not giving God's rope a chance to help you, but just ignoring or denying it while not knowing.

This is a much lower evil, these type of people can be easily saved, if people go out to them and teach them or they witness miracles, so it's really sad,  that we don't try to guide humans in general and push them to seek knowledge.

There are levels of hell compared to other levels seem like those people are not evil compared to the more lower gates, but still, they are ALL evil though their evil status significantly is different, that if you were to compare them, one appears almost like saints compared to the others.

At the end, the way to paradise, and it won't be accepted otherwise, with some exceptions only  (without means to know the truth), is really through sincere love of God that you value nothing else on par with that Great being and that you believe in his Wrath, that you actually do fear him and don't feel safe from his displeasure.

If we are free of Shirk we enter paradise, and while our minds can be convinced there is only one God,  it's the heart that has to be trained to value God above all other things and people and the dunya has to be so low in our eyes, in fact, hated to a degree because it leads away from God, it's this SHIRK that is harder to defeat.

We have to also love God to the extent that we only attribute him truth that we know and have proof for, and not attribute him through ignorance or trusting others to attribute God on their claim they study his religion and know how to teach his teachings when they don't present proof and mixed falsehood with truth and mix fame and money with religion and have made their career path and confirming forefathers concerning religion interwined.

God requires sincerity that we do value him and love him above all else. If we do, we enter paradise.  So oneness of God is enough, but the Quran shows, those who do unify him will come to the proper guidance of God and be acknowledge the current guides or rope or family of the reminder or reminder.


Title: Re: Kamal al Haydari on Takfir on non-12ers
Post by: Rationalist on November 09, 2020, 02:17:22 AM
What you are saying is what is said by many Sunnis and Shia scholars. Shaykh Imran Hosein has taken a new approach to understanding the Quran, and has a different view point. His views are also backed by minority tafseers and historical points. 
Title: Re: Kamal al Haydari on Takfir on non-12ers
Post by: Soccer on November 19, 2020, 06:36:25 PM
What you are saying is what is said by many Sunnis and Shia scholars. Shaykh Imran Hosein has taken a new approach to understanding the Quran, and has a different view point. His views are also backed by minority tafseers and historical points.

That's interesting but also irrelevant.
Title: Re: Kamal al Haydari on Takfir on non-12ers
Post by: Rationalist on November 19, 2020, 06:52:45 PM
You are the one who asked about Jews and Christians. I told you how there are views which do not do takfir on them either.
Title: Re: Kamal al Haydari on Takfir on non-12ers
Post by: Soccer on November 19, 2020, 06:55:56 PM
You are the one who asked about Jews and Christians. I told you how there are views which do not do takfir on them either.

Interesting but irrelevant as I said.
Title: Re: Kamal al Haydari on Takfir on non-12ers
Post by: Rationalist on November 20, 2020, 01:32:12 AM
Interesting but irrelevant as I said.

You also said...
Yet, you don't care if Christians consider you disbelievers or Jews that you follow a fake Prophet or any other religion,


I am saying there will always be trouble makers in the ummah. Yet the best people are those who don't  use the bad apples to represent each group. The Quran is clear on the existence of believers among the Muslims, Jews and Christians. To you this is irrelevant because only 12ers Shia are the only believers of the universe, yet the 12th Imam abandoned you, and still did not make an appearance till this day. Instead you want to tell people that you are the only ones who can love Ahlul bayt.
Title: Re: Kamal al Haydari on Takfir on non-12ers
Post by: Soccer on November 27, 2020, 01:02:18 PM
You also said...
Yet, you don't care if Christians consider you disbelievers or Jews that you follow a fake Prophet or any other religion,


I am saying there will always be trouble makers in the ummah. Yet the best people are those who don't  use the bad apples to represent each group. The Quran is clear on the existence of believers among the Muslims, Jews and Christians. To you this is irrelevant because only 12ers Shia are the only believers of the universe, yet the 12th Imam abandoned you, and still did not make an appearance till this day. Instead you want to tell people that you are the only ones who can love Ahlul bayt.


God reveals in Quran the general rule and allows exceptions.  Zina is haram and prostitution is haram, but then says for women who are pushed towards while hating it, they are forgiven.  It maybe this is force force, or it maybe they are a forced to provide for their child forced type situation.  Both places of the veil in Quran talk about women and being free, and talk about prostitution in both places.

Prostitution in general lands you in hell and Zina (fornication) in general does, but there are exceptions to the rule as Quran itself shows.

Eating pork is haram, but if it's the cheapest protein and same thing with halal food, it's too expensive, and a person is in a harsh financial situation, and doesn't do it out of rebellion, God doesn't hold you accountable for it.

There are people without means to guidance. There are people who literally are too stupid and it's not their fault. There are people working 3 jobs and no time.  God knows who is the exception.

But as a general rule "what was your response to the those sent (by God)", is a legitimate question on the day of judgment.   Being too in love with Dunya to not have given Quran and Mohammad (s) a chance, or his family (a) a chance, to guide us, will not be accepted.

Too apathetic to oppression will never be accepted is another thing.  For sure, some people are doing their best to stay alive and cannot strive in God's way against oppressors. 

But many of us, we are apathetic to the oppression of the oppressors and the poor, and we will be raised with the oppressors for sure in that case.

God knows the exceptions but as a general rule, not striving against oppression and oppressors lands you to hell as well forever and no doubt, there is no way out of hell ever.