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Kamal al Haydari on Takfir on non-12ers

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Soccer

Re: Kamal al Haydari on Takfir on non-12ers
« Reply #20 on: November 04, 2020, 09:24:13 PM »
We don't know the conclusion because there are two statements he made. If already knew the answer then there would be no need to make two statements. Also with their shirk the Quran says they are the closest to the believers.
If You punish them, they belong to You after all.1 But if You forgive them, You are surely the Almighty, All-Wise.”(5:118)

Your argument is there is no other reason to put the two possibilities, but that they are both possible. This is not true, I already gave you a reason, it's due to the fact he wants to say,  I am not a god and I can't even effect your decision in this matter. In fact, it's so clear, that "You are their Lord- and so if you punish them or forgive them, it's up to you, I'm am definitely not a god and rather it's up to you to punish them" - then what does God reply, he says, the truthful will benefit by their truthfulness. 

Shirk is not forgiven, neither inward or outward form.



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I don't interpet with the context of divine appointment. You on the other hand do. The Imam did not say this bayah on the basis of nass.


The truth is not at the mercy of your interpretation and it's clarity is not at the mercy of what you testify to it or not, it's clear regardless, which is why disbelief in it per Quran results in hell.  This especially true for all the reciters of Quran.



 
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So they fight on his side, die and still go to hell?

For sure they would if they didn't believe in his divinely chosen status in the Quran and what he himself emphasized on sermon after sermon.


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That's why Zurara got angry. Imam Jafar said they can go to jannah.

Once again, the Quran talks about something through out it's pages, and you rather follow what we don't know to due away with what we know.

So many clear verses that Shirk is not forgiven, yet, you hold to unclear way of interpreting a verse, a logically fallacy, and pretend all those verses don't exist.

Rejecting Ahlulbayt (a) is disbelief for sure, and more then that, not coming to them, you perish forever and have no chance for guidance in this world or next.

"Is it so bad, then, to be misunderstood? Pythagoras was misunderstood, and Socrates, and Jesus, and Luther, and Copernicus, and Galileo, and Newton, and every pure and wise spirit that ever took flesh. To be great is to be misunderstood.” ― Ralph Waldo Emerson, Self-Reliance

Rationalist

Re: Kamal al Haydari on Takfir on non-12ers
« Reply #21 on: November 04, 2020, 10:15:29 PM »
3 Questions for you:
Why did the Quran ask Muslims to support the Byzantine Empire over the Persian Empire. In your view both are guilty of Helll based shirk?
Why does the Quran says Christians are close to Believers?
Do you believe the Prophet (pbuh) read the Janazah of the Najashi who remained a Christian till death?

Soccer

Re: Kamal al Haydari on Takfir on non-12ers
« Reply #22 on: November 04, 2020, 11:49:40 PM »
(1) Mohammad (s) was not well known and widespread for them to be obligated to accept the message at that point.
(2) That verse has expansion, it says describing those Christians in that area - that when they hear the truth, they accept it and come under Mohammad (s) authority. This is no longer true of Christians today over all.
(3) I'm not aware of what you are talking about and would have to look into it/research.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2020, 11:51:51 PM by Soccer »
"Is it so bad, then, to be misunderstood? Pythagoras was misunderstood, and Socrates, and Jesus, and Luther, and Copernicus, and Galileo, and Newton, and every pure and wise spirit that ever took flesh. To be great is to be misunderstood.” ― Ralph Waldo Emerson, Self-Reliance

Rationalist

Re: Kamal al Haydari on Takfir on non-12ers
« Reply #23 on: November 05, 2020, 12:05:00 AM »
(1) Mohammad (s) was not well known and widespread for them to be obligated to accept the message at that point.
But why the support for Byzantine over Persian? They both are mushrik in your view.

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(2) That verse has expansion, it says describing those Christians in that area - that when they hear the truth, they accept it and come under Mohammad (s) authority. This is no longer true of Christians today over all.
It says they will cry. It does not say they will become Muslims.



Rationalist

Re: Kamal al Haydari on Takfir on non-12ers
« Reply #24 on: November 05, 2020, 12:09:06 AM »
For point number 3.
https://youtu.be/VUX7zUKVhOk

Soccer

Re: Kamal al Haydari on Takfir on non-12ers
« Reply #25 on: November 05, 2020, 07:02:03 PM »
But why the support for Byzantine over Persian? They both are mushrik in your view.

The official religion was polytheistic but individuals themselves or society - might have believed in one God and not gone into the trinity too much.  This is one possibility. The second possibility, is that despite their polytheism, the believers before Mohammad (s) came were among the Christian people and so it's a way of God protecting them even though they are surrounded by deviants.

For example, today, the evil USA and Israel hate Muslims in general although they may hate Shiites more due to our political religious stance,  it's a war on Islam in general.   This doesn't mean all Muslims are good or guided, but since believers are found in this community,  we would be happy if Muslims gain upper hand or some power better then their state now.
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It says they will cry. It does not say they will become Muslims.

Actually it says they do accept it and the crying is implied they recognize the truth and then when they convert they are rewarded twice for their deeds, their act of submission before meeting Mohammad (s) (they are rewarded) and then after Mohammad (s) and both times - they are titled "Muslims" as in submitters to God and his guidance.

You keep making arguments out of ignorance - this is while so many verses say if people don't follow God's guidance they go to hell, let alone if they reject Mohammad (s), let alone if they are polytheists.

You ignore what is clear for conjecture you come up with over verses that don't prove your case by you turn to fallacies like argument from ignorance or excluded middle and keep at it like that - instead of turning to what Quran clearly says, you resort to ambiguity in your head.
"Is it so bad, then, to be misunderstood? Pythagoras was misunderstood, and Socrates, and Jesus, and Luther, and Copernicus, and Galileo, and Newton, and every pure and wise spirit that ever took flesh. To be great is to be misunderstood.” ― Ralph Waldo Emerson, Self-Reliance

Rationalist

Re: Kamal al Haydari on Takfir on non-12ers
« Reply #26 on: November 05, 2020, 07:56:22 PM »
The official religion was polytheistic but individuals themselves or society - might have believed in one God and not gone into the trinity too much.  This is one possibility. The second possibility, is that despite their polytheism, the believers before Mohammad (s) came were among the Christian people and so it's a way of God protecting them even though they are surrounded by deviants.
Yes, also in Ethiopia the Muslims were sent for protection. The ruler cried when Imam Ali's own brother Jafar read the verses. He didn't become a follower of Prophet Muhammad(s).
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For example, today, the evil USA and Israel hate Muslims in general although they may hate Shiites more due to our political religious stance,  it's a war on Islam in general.   This doesn't mean all Muslims are good or guided, but since believers are found in this community,  we would be happy if Muslims gain upper hand or some power better then their state now.
Actually it says they do accept it and the crying is implied they recognize the truth and then when they convert they are rewarded twice for their deeds, their act of submission before meeting Mohammad (s) (they are rewarded) and then after Mohammad (s) and both times - they are titled "Muslims" as in submitters to God and his guidance.
Putin says these Christians exist even today.
https://youtu.be/10cDyeIRF3k
https://youtu.be/7bSAB5OPkwQ



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You keep making arguments out of ignorance - this is while so many verses say if people don't follow God's guidance they go to hell, let alone if they reject Mohammad (s), let alone if they are polytheists.

You ignore what is clear for conjecture you come up with over verses that don't prove your case by you turn to fallacies like argument from ignorance or excluded middle and keep at it like that - instead of turning to what Quran clearly says, you resort to ambiguity in your head.


I believe those verses apply to everyone. There are so many Muslims in both Shia and Sunni included who work with jinns and belong to such evil bloodlines. I posted a clip where a Christian women talks about these as the Bani Isreali who mixed their bloodline with sahirs and became corrupt.

Soccer

Re: Kamal al Haydari on Takfir on non-12ers
« Reply #27 on: November 05, 2020, 08:03:32 PM »
Yes, also in Ethiopia the Muslims were sent for protection. The ruler cried when Imam Ali's own brother Jafar read the verses. He didn't become a follower of Prophet Muhammad(s).Putin says these Christians exist even today.

I can't verify either way, but I can verify that the Quran says about the people closest in love to believers in that time, would and did convert when became aware of God's signs and proofs and when it was recited to them, came to Mohammad (s) and said why would they not as they always hope God would enter them among the righteous people or be on on their side (two ways of seeing that in Arabic).



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I believe those verses apply to everyone. There are so many Muslims in both Shia and Sunni included who work with jinns and belong to such evil bloodlines. I posted a clip where a Christian women talks about these as the Bani Isreali who mixed their bloodline with sahirs and became corrupt.


It's necessary to testify to Ahlulbayt (a) at least in heart (if Taqiya is needed, you don't have to outside) to be guided, but it doesn't mean if you testify to them outwardly or think you recognize their position and God's favor through them that you are guided.

Mohamad (s) is a door of faith, but hypocrites deceive themselves when they testify to him. The same is true of 12 Imams (a) and Fatima (a).

Just as doing Salah outwardly is necessary to ascend to God, but it doesn't mean if you do it outwardly, you weren't heedless in it or did the proper job inwardly and that it brings you closer to God.

Rejecting God's guidance is not acceptable, and it's further, not coming to it when you have circumstance in which you can search it out and strive for it and find it, is not acceptable.


"Is it so bad, then, to be misunderstood? Pythagoras was misunderstood, and Socrates, and Jesus, and Luther, and Copernicus, and Galileo, and Newton, and every pure and wise spirit that ever took flesh. To be great is to be misunderstood.” ― Ralph Waldo Emerson, Self-Reliance

Rationalist

Re: Kamal al Haydari on Takfir on non-12ers
« Reply #28 on: November 05, 2020, 08:51:47 PM »
I can't verify either way, but I can verify that the Quran says about the people closest in love to believers in that time, would and did convert when became aware of God's signs and proofs and when it was recited to them, came to Mohammad (s) and said why would they not as they always hope God would enter them among the righteous people or be on on their side (two ways of seeing that in Arabic).
Who are those people who converted from Christianity to Islam in those times?



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It's necessary to testify to Ahlulbayt (a) at least in heart (if Taqiya is needed, you don't have to outside) to be guided, but it doesn't mean if you testify to them outwardly or think you recognize their position and God's favor through them that you are guided.

Mohamad (s) is a door of faith, but hypocrites deceive themselves when they testify to him. The same is true of 12 Imams (a) and Fatima (a).

Just as doing Salah outwardly is necessary to ascend to God, but it doesn't mean if you do it outwardly, you weren't heedless in it or did the proper job inwardly and that it brings you closer to God.

Rejecting God's guidance is not acceptable, and it's further, not coming to it when you have circumstance in which you can search it out and strive for it and find it, is not acceptable.




Here is a Shia professor who says magic is halaal.

https://fb.watch/1zZ1IV7HpE/

I have come across 12er Shia jinns from Safavid era and some came from Pakistan during ruqyah.


Soccer

Re: Kamal al Haydari on Takfir on non-12ers
« Reply #29 on: November 05, 2020, 10:23:36 PM »
Who are those people who converted from Christianity to Islam in those times?



Here is a Shia professor who says magic is halaal.

https://fb.watch/1zZ1IV7HpE/

I have come across 12er Shia jinns from Safavid era and some came from Pakistan during ruqyah.

You haven't addressed what I said in either of those, and there is no reason for me to really even respond but just to inform you,  you always keep moving goal posts and side track proofs and never prove what you say and never attempt to.

If you have a point make it.  Don't ask questions as if you have a point, when you never do prove your point, but constantly are proven to have none with your questions at all but a fallacy in your head or misunderstanding.

Prove your point, come with proofs. This is how you have a dialogue.  To not try to make a dialogue by just responding by what has no substance or proof.

That is unfair, when proofs are presented you just reply and don't address what has been proven on certainty. 



"Is it so bad, then, to be misunderstood? Pythagoras was misunderstood, and Socrates, and Jesus, and Luther, and Copernicus, and Galileo, and Newton, and every pure and wise spirit that ever took flesh. To be great is to be misunderstood.” ― Ralph Waldo Emerson, Self-Reliance

Rationalist

Re: Kamal al Haydari on Takfir on non-12ers
« Reply #30 on: November 06, 2020, 12:00:06 AM »
You haven't addressed what I said in either of those, and there is no reason for me to really even respond but just to inform you,  you always keep moving goal posts and side track proofs and never prove what you say and never attempt to.

That is because you have  already made up mind about takfir. To me momin exist within the people of the book. The Prophet Muhammad(s) included the Jews to be part of the Ummah as part of his state policy. The real issue within all sects and ummah  is that they are in the minority. The Quran punishes hose who sin and Muslims are not except those verses.

As for the 12ers I happy with scholars like Kamal Hyderi, Fadalullah, Asif Mohseni, Jawad Naqwi and others who went against the takfiri views of the 12er Shia.

Soccer

Re: Kamal al Haydari on Takfir on non-12ers
« Reply #31 on: November 08, 2020, 08:29:02 PM »
Salam


There are verses that show, those who truly believe in the next world, believe in the Quran. There are verses that show those who truly believe in God, will believe in God's Ayat and not disbelieve in them.  And there are plenty of verses that show, those who truly believe in all of the book, will be guided by it to the straight path and it will become vividly clear to them, it's proofs and signs that it is. 

These verses are understood, that if a person has the means to be guided and believes in God, God will guide his heart.

There are exceptions to the rule, those without power to believe or disbelieve, but keep in mind that even in that time, as hard as it was to travel, the Quran showed if they can travel, they had to search out God's Messengers on earth and come to God and his Messenger.  The fact, if they were traveling and searching and never found it and death came to them, they get rewarded by God.

In this day and age, it just takes a little time off your day to research what the sent ones by God have brought to humanity and research their words a long with reflecting over holy books and researching religion, is not the daunting task it was in the past.

It's MUCH EASIER to research religions right now and even be aware of the disputes and differences and build methodology of knowing what is true and what is false.

There are people without even access to clear water, let alone means to know religions out there, let alone see past the darkness of Islam as is, and see what Islam was meant to be, in this day and age. These people are the exception, they can be of any religion and God will mostly likely forgive them, as long as they don't murder etc, you know what I mean.


There also a case of a certain people who are neither good or evil, but are living in a place where their affair is totally in God's hand and no one knows their fate, not even the witness of our time, who sees their deeds, but rather, their inner secret despite his witnessing deeds in unseen forms - they are still so hidden, not even the Imam (a) of our time knows their fate.  The thing with these people, if the trials don't make them shift one or the other in this world,  it is said, there will be trials for them on the day of judgment and so their test is not done even the life after death doesn't complete their trial.

This is where people are exception to the rule.

Another thing to mention is there levels of hell. Stubborn denial or hypocrites of Muslims who have proofs but don't apply their knowledge, is the lowest fire gate way.

But among the gateways although much less evil, is choosing never to give the ones sent by God a chance to guide you, and never giving Gods' book a chance to guide you, not giving God's rope a chance to help you, but just ignoring or denying it while not knowing.

This is a much lower evil, these type of people can be easily saved, if people go out to them and teach them or they witness miracles, so it's really sad,  that we don't try to guide humans in general and push them to seek knowledge.

There are levels of hell compared to other levels seem like those people are not evil compared to the more lower gates, but still, they are ALL evil though their evil status significantly is different, that if you were to compare them, one appears almost like saints compared to the others.

At the end, the way to paradise, and it won't be accepted otherwise, with some exceptions only  (without means to know the truth), is really through sincere love of God that you value nothing else on par with that Great being and that you believe in his Wrath, that you actually do fear him and don't feel safe from his displeasure.

If we are free of Shirk we enter paradise, and while our minds can be convinced there is only one God,  it's the heart that has to be trained to value God above all other things and people and the dunya has to be so low in our eyes, in fact, hated to a degree because it leads away from God, it's this SHIRK that is harder to defeat.

We have to also love God to the extent that we only attribute him truth that we know and have proof for, and not attribute him through ignorance or trusting others to attribute God on their claim they study his religion and know how to teach his teachings when they don't present proof and mixed falsehood with truth and mix fame and money with religion and have made their career path and confirming forefathers concerning religion interwined.

God requires sincerity that we do value him and love him above all else. If we do, we enter paradise.  So oneness of God is enough, but the Quran shows, those who do unify him will come to the proper guidance of God and be acknowledge the current guides or rope or family of the reminder or reminder.


"Is it so bad, then, to be misunderstood? Pythagoras was misunderstood, and Socrates, and Jesus, and Luther, and Copernicus, and Galileo, and Newton, and every pure and wise spirit that ever took flesh. To be great is to be misunderstood.” ― Ralph Waldo Emerson, Self-Reliance

Rationalist

Re: Kamal al Haydari on Takfir on non-12ers
« Reply #32 on: November 09, 2020, 05:17:22 AM »
What you are saying is what is said by many Sunnis and Shia scholars. Shaykh Imran Hosein has taken a new approach to understanding the Quran, and has a different view point. His views are also backed by minority tafseers and historical points. 

Soccer

Re: Kamal al Haydari on Takfir on non-12ers
« Reply #33 on: November 19, 2020, 09:36:25 PM »
What you are saying is what is said by many Sunnis and Shia scholars. Shaykh Imran Hosein has taken a new approach to understanding the Quran, and has a different view point. His views are also backed by minority tafseers and historical points.

That's interesting but also irrelevant.
"Is it so bad, then, to be misunderstood? Pythagoras was misunderstood, and Socrates, and Jesus, and Luther, and Copernicus, and Galileo, and Newton, and every pure and wise spirit that ever took flesh. To be great is to be misunderstood.” ― Ralph Waldo Emerson, Self-Reliance

Rationalist

Re: Kamal al Haydari on Takfir on non-12ers
« Reply #34 on: November 19, 2020, 09:52:45 PM »
You are the one who asked about Jews and Christians. I told you how there are views which do not do takfir on them either.

Soccer

Re: Kamal al Haydari on Takfir on non-12ers
« Reply #35 on: November 19, 2020, 09:55:56 PM »
You are the one who asked about Jews and Christians. I told you how there are views which do not do takfir on them either.

Interesting but irrelevant as I said.
"Is it so bad, then, to be misunderstood? Pythagoras was misunderstood, and Socrates, and Jesus, and Luther, and Copernicus, and Galileo, and Newton, and every pure and wise spirit that ever took flesh. To be great is to be misunderstood.” ― Ralph Waldo Emerson, Self-Reliance

Rationalist

Re: Kamal al Haydari on Takfir on non-12ers
« Reply #36 on: November 20, 2020, 04:32:12 AM »
Interesting but irrelevant as I said.

You also said...
Yet, you don't care if Christians consider you disbelievers or Jews that you follow a fake Prophet or any other religion,


I am saying there will always be trouble makers in the ummah. Yet the best people are those who don't  use the bad apples to represent each group. The Quran is clear on the existence of believers among the Muslims, Jews and Christians. To you this is irrelevant because only 12ers Shia are the only believers of the universe, yet the 12th Imam abandoned you, and still did not make an appearance till this day. Instead you want to tell people that you are the only ones who can love Ahlul bayt.

 

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