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Sunni Shia Discussion Forum => General Sunni-Shia => Topic started by: Bolani Muslim on December 12, 2014, 01:31:25 AM

Title: Life after Shia questions
Post by: Bolani Muslim on December 12, 2014, 01:31:25 AM
سلام علیک
For all the fellow ex-shias, I have been wondering.
How did your family/friends/community take it?
Are you the only ex-shia you know of?
Do you eat from shias (since they believe in kufr)?
Are you a specific madhab?


Currently I'm planning to tell my family I'm not Shia after I'm married.  :P
Thanks for reading, Allah Hafiz
Title: Re: Life after Shia questions
Post by: Ameen on December 12, 2014, 01:44:22 AM
سلام علیک
For all the fellow ex-shias, I have been wondering.
How did your family/friends/community take it?
Are you the only ex-shia you know of?
Do you eat from shias (since they believe in kufr)?
Are you a specific madhab?


Currently I'm planning to tell my family I'm not Shia after I'm married.  :P
Thanks for reading, Allah Hafiz

Are you also going to take the opinion of Ex Sunnis??? How they must feel??? I'm sure their feelings must also be brought in to consideration. Since they believe in Kufar??? Wow! A big statement but I'm sure it can't be backed by anything. So tell me what made you become an Ex Shia??? Congratulations on becoming a Sunni. Would you mind telling me which Sunni have you become and why??? They have four schools of thought so which one have you taken on and why??? I don't think I'm going to here from you now. If I do I'm sure it wont be positive but lets see.
Title: Re: Life after Shia questions
Post by: Ebn Hussein on December 12, 2014, 02:07:17 AM
Brother Bolani, Salam Alaykum.

There are a number of Ex-Shias on this board. Brother Husayn, Efendi (owner of gift2shias.com) and myself. There are some threads about Ex-Shias on this forum:

The Rise of the Sunnis & EX-Shias [VIDEO]: http://forum.twelvershia.net/general-sunni-vs-shia/the-rise-of-the-sunnais-ex-shias-%28video%29/

Why I left Shiasm (by Husayn. A Rafidi  member from the old forum whom I debated myself for literally TEN years till he became Muslim!!!): http://forum.twelvershia.net/general-sunni-vs-shia/why-i-left-shiaism/

As for my story, well It's a bit long, maybe I write something about it one day, as for now here is ONE of MANY main reasons why I believe that Shiism is the religion of satan and the unholy progeny of satan (it's written by myself but from brother Ibn Al-Hindi's aka swords of sunnah's amazing blog) and not the religion and school of the Ahl Al-Bayt:

http://youpuncturedtheark.wordpress.com/2012/05/06/from-whom-do-you-take-your-religion/

As for our families, well, it's kinda private question, but those who like can answer of course. May Allah bless you for leaving the religion of shirk for Islam, Tawhid and Sunnah.

As for schools of thought. These are Fiqhi schools, ever rotten Marja' is a fiqhi school (they differ on tons of issues, from najasat, to the ruling of the jumu3a prayer), so don't be bothered by the cheap shots of the Rawafid. What is important is that you are a Muslim now (whatever fiqh you follow) and not an Imamite Mushrik.
Title: Re: Life after Shia questions
Post by: Ebn Hussein on December 12, 2014, 02:08:50 AM
I don't think I'm going to here from you now. If I do I'm sure it wont be positive but lets see.

Clear sign of ta3assub/bias. Zindiqs like you will only get impressed by zandaqah, not by tawhid and iman, so get out of here if you have already made up your mind.
Title: Re: Life after Shia questions
Post by: Taha on December 12, 2014, 04:36:07 AM
I'm an ex-Sunni and my family took it fabulously.  They got worried when I got religious, thought I would go join al-Qa'idah.  So when I became a Shia they were happy because they knew I wouldn't blow people up.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯


To be fair though, 99.9999999% of my family isn't religious at all.  Just my grandma.  And my aunt.  And my gay cousin  :-\
Title: Re: Life after Shia questions
Post by: Farid on December 12, 2014, 01:55:17 PM
To be fair though, 99.9999999% of my family isn't religious at all.  Just my grandma.  And my aunt.  And my gay cousin  :-\

I lol'ed @ gay cousin being religious.  =))
Title: Re: Life after Shia questions
Post by: Hani on December 12, 2014, 06:06:20 PM
Are you a specific madhab?
Do you eat from shias (since they believe in kufr)?


You can pick any Madhab you like, they're all the same.


And we eat from Shia yes.

Title: Re: Life after Shia questions
Post by: Hani on December 12, 2014, 06:09:21 PM
I lol'ed @ gay cousin being religious.  =))


It makes things a lot spicier.
Title: Re: Life after Shia questions
Post by: Ameen on December 12, 2014, 07:16:38 PM
Brother Bolani, Salam Alaykum.

There are a number of Ex-Shias on this board. Brother Husayn, Efendi (owner of gift2shias.com) and myself. There are some threads about Ex-Shias on this forum:

The Rise of the Sunnis & EX-Shias [VIDEO]: http://forum.twelvershia.net/general-sunni-vs-shia/the-rise-of-the-sunnais-ex-shias-%28video%29/

Why I left Shiasm (by Husayn. A Rafidi  member from the old forum whom I debated myself for literally TEN years till he became Muslim!!!): http://forum.twelvershia.net/general-sunni-vs-shia/why-i-left-shiaism/

As for my story, well It's a bit long, maybe I write something about it one day, as for now here is ONE of MANY main reasons why I believe that Shiism is the religion of satan and the unholy progeny of satan (it's written by myself but from brother Ibn Al-Hindi's aka swords of sunnah's amazing blog) and not the religion and school of the Ahl Al-Bayt:

http://youpuncturedtheark.wordpress.com/2012/05/06/from-whom-do-you-take-your-religion/

As for our families, well, it's kinda private question, but those who like can answer of course. May Allah bless you for leaving the religion of shirk for Islam, Tawhid and Sunnah.

As for schools of thought. These are Fiqhi schools, ever rotten Marja' is a fiqhi school (they differ on tons of issues, from najasat, to the ruling of the jumu3a prayer), so don't be bothered by the cheap shots of the Rawafid. What is important is that you are a Muslim now (whatever fiqh you follow) and not an Imamite Mushrik.

Big talk we have here from you as usual. But I'm afraid that's all it is. Nothing positive and nothing constructive. There never has been. Just slander and attacks. You can't declare and introduce yourself, who, why and what you are and this is for sure, never mind about promoting your belief and faith. This is out of the question. This is your misfortune. Hey you can't even discuss and debate on Shiasim on fair and just terms with a balanced approach, never mind about proving it wrong. So tell me what is your alternative???  Or what is the alternative??? You slandered and attacked Shiaism for ten years and then he finally became a Muslim??? Is that it??? Is that the alternative??? So how did he become a Muslim??? By saying the two Shahadas??? By giving the two testimonies??? Well my friend if you're Shia, you still say and believe in the two Shahadas. So what seems to be the difference here??? If you're a Shia you say and believe in the two Shahadas and if you're a Sunni you're the same to begin with. Both are Muslims, so how was he Kafir to begin with??? And then what different did he have to say and do, to become a Sunni??? After a ten year debate with you he didn't become a Muslim, since he already was one. And if you can prove me wrong then I would like to see that. So which Sunni did he become??? There is a hell of a lot of difference between the four schools of thought. And if there isn't then which Sunni did he become and why not the other??? Or do you need another ten years to sort this out as well. Get out of here if i haven't already made up my mind??? Rather than asking me to get out of here why don'y you GET IN HERE and start do discuss all your grievances with me, one by one like a MATURE individual and a TRUE gentlemen. Or are you going to look for the easy route AGAIN and look for a cheap and lame excuse to ban me. So what's it going to be??? Are you finally going to step up to me??? Bring it on one by one! And you know from me it has always been a humble request. Your agents on Shia chat have issued challenges. Well lets see what you got!
Title: Re: Life after Shia questions
Post by: Ameen on December 12, 2014, 07:20:12 PM
Are you a specific madhab?
Do you eat from shias (since they believe in kufr)?


You can pick any Madhab you like, they're all the same.


And we eat from Shia yes.
s

And you eat from Shias??? Really??? I thought Shias were Kafir according to you boys. Is a Kafir not najas according to you??? May be you can enlighten me about najaasath according to you.
Title: Re: Life after Shia questions
Post by: Ameen on December 12, 2014, 07:24:59 PM
I don't think I'm going to here from you now. If I do I'm sure it wont be positive but lets see.

Clear sign of ta3assub/bias. Zindiqs like you will only get impressed by zandaqah, not by tawhid and iman, so get out of here if you have already made up your mind.

I see that you still haven't grown out of your childish behaviour. But come on, you can do better than that! Why don't you bring this Tawheed and Eemaan to begin with rather than the childish behaviour. I'm here and I would like to here your version of Tawheed and Eemaan.
Title: Re: Life after Shia questions
Post by: Hani on December 12, 2014, 08:18:00 PM

And you eat from Shias??? Really??? I thought Shias were Kafir according to you boys. Is a Kafir not najas according to you??? May be you can enlighten me about najaasath according to you.


You're the boy, have some self respect.




Quote
There is a hell of a lot of difference between the four schools of thought. And if there isn't then which Sunni did he become and why not the other???


If you bothered to open one book of Fiqh in your life, you'd know that what you said is false.
Title: Re: Life after Shia questions
Post by: Taha on December 12, 2014, 08:24:44 PM
I lol'ed @ gay cousin being religious.  =))

Yeah lol. He is the only one in my family that has a problem with Shias. Said I was going to hell.

On the other hand, he just recently gay married his long time boyfriend that he lives with. So I'm not sure how serious to take him.
Title: Re: Life after Shia questions
Post by: Hani on December 12, 2014, 08:33:43 PM
Yeah lol. He is the only one in my family that has a problem with Shias. Said I was going to hell.

On the other hand, he just recently gay married his long time boyfriend that he lives with. So I'm not sure how serious to take him.


Your gay relatives aside, do you want to remain upon this path that you are on? Or don't you see any problems at all with Tashayyu`?
Title: Re: Life after Shia questions
Post by: Farid on December 12, 2014, 08:55:15 PM


On the other hand, he just recently gay married his long time boyfriend that he lives with. So I'm not sure how serious to take him.

Oh, you're just upset you weren't invited to the wedding. ;p
Title: Re: Life after Shia questions
Post by: Ebn Hussein on December 12, 2014, 09:08:50 PM


Quote
Oh, you're just upset you weren't invited to the wedding. ;p

^ ;D
Title: Re: Life after Shia questions
Post by: Ameen on December 12, 2014, 09:59:06 PM


Quote
Oh, you're just upset you weren't invited to the wedding. ;p

^ ;D

I didn't know you were in to weddings as well, apart from Shia bitterness, hatred and envy. So who's getting married??? Once you tell me then the question of getting upset or not can arise.
Title: Re: Life after Shia questions
Post by: Hadrami on December 13, 2014, 01:16:14 AM
I lol'ed @ gay cousin being religious.  =))

Yeah lol. He is the only one in my family that has a problem with Shias. Said I was going to hell.

On the other hand, he just recently gay married his long time boyfriend that he lives with. So I'm not sure how serious to take him.

yuck i shiver just thinking about it...but you do know that in the end of the day, a gay is still much much "better" or less evil than a musyrik right?
Title: Re: Life after Shia questions
Post by: Bolani Muslim on December 13, 2014, 03:13:57 AM
Brother Bolani, Salam Alaykum.

There are a number of Ex-Shias on this board. Brother Husayn, Efendi (owner of gift2shias.com) and myself. There are some threads about Ex-Shias on this forum:

...

As for schools of thought. These are Fiqhi schools, ever rotten Marja' is a fiqhi school (they differ on tons of issues, from najasat, to the ruling of the jumu3a prayer), so don't be bothered by the cheap shots of the Rawafid. What is important is that you are a Muslim now (whatever fiqh you follow) and not an Imamite Mushrik.
The article you wrote was really good, a lot better than the posts I've read from ex-sunnis (who are usually ignorant about their faith)

To be fair though, 99.9999999% of my family isn't religious at all.  Just my grandma.  And my aunt.  And my gay cousin  :-\
How can your cousin call himself religious and practice sodomy, then tell you you're going to hell? Did he do a 'nikah' or no? This is too weird  :o
Title: Re: Life after Shia questions
Post by: Hani on December 13, 2014, 02:06:01 PM
How can your cousin call himself religious and practice sodomy, then tell you you're going to hell? Did he do a 'nikah' or no? This is too weird  :o


Don't believe people's random stories online brother.
Title: Re: Life after Shia questions
Post by: Farid on December 14, 2014, 03:46:06 AM



Don't believe people's random stories online brother.

Gay religious Muslims do exist. They are usually Qur'an only and extremely ignorant.
Title: Re: Life after Shia questions
Post by: Ameen on December 16, 2014, 01:54:50 AM



My dear brother Hani,

You said,

"You're the boy, have some self respect."

My reply,

If I'm the boy how come you're the one with the childish behaviour (ha ha ha, hee hee hee)???
And you're telling me about self respect! You really need to practice before you preach and gain before you advise.

You said,

"
If you bothered to open one book of Fiqh in your life, you'd know that what you said is false."

My reply,

Since you seem to know it all, why don't you prove that I'm false??? Accusing is easy, which you seem to do and proving is difficult, which you seem to run from.
Title: Re: Life after Shia questions
Post by: Hani on December 16, 2014, 10:01:43 AM
I told you how to find out, open the books of Fiqh and READ!


I'm not going to do it for you.
Title: Re: Life after Shia questions
Post by: Ameen on December 17, 2014, 02:03:10 AM
I told you how to find out, open the books of Fiqh and READ!


I'm not going to do it for you.

You don't have to do anything for me. But what you need to do for yourself is, if you believe something I've said is false then, it's down to you to prove it. Then the ball is in your court! It's your serve! Otherwise don't accuse me of falsehood or back your claim. You need to give up the childish response.
Title: Re: Life after Shia questions
Post by: Ameen on December 17, 2014, 02:13:27 AM
Brother Bolani, Salam Alaykum.

There are a number of Ex-Shias on this board. Brother Husayn, Efendi (owner of gift2shias.com) and myself. There are some threads about Ex-Shias on this forum:

The Rise of the Sunnis & EX-Shias [VIDEO]: http://forum.twelvershia.net/general-sunni-vs-shia/the-rise-of-the-sunnais-ex-shias-%28video%29/

Why I left Shiasm (by Husayn. A Rafidi  member from the old forum whom I debated myself for literally TEN years till he became Muslim!!!): http://forum.twelvershia.net/general-sunni-vs-shia/why-i-left-shiaism/

As for my story, well It's a bit long, maybe I write something about it one day, as for now here is ONE of MANY main reasons why I believe that Shiism is the religion of satan and the unholy progeny of satan (it's written by myself but from brother Ibn Al-Hindi's aka swords of sunnah's amazing blog) and not the religion and school of the Ahl Al-Bayt:

http://youpuncturedtheark.wordpress.com/2012/05/06/from-whom-do-you-take-your-religion/

As for our families, well, it's kinda private question, but those who like can answer of course. May Allah bless you for leaving the religion of shirk for Islam, Tawhid and Sunnah.

As for schools of thought. These are Fiqhi schools, ever rotten Marja' is a fiqhi school (they differ on tons of issues, from najasat, to the ruling of the jumu3a prayer), so don't be bothered by the cheap shots of the Rawafid. What is important is that you are a Muslim now (whatever fiqh you follow) and not an Imamite Mushrik.

Your words,

"Why I left Shiasm (by Husayn. A Rafidi  member from the old forum whom I debated myself for literally TEN years till he became Muslim!!!): http://forum.twelvershia.net/general-sunni-vs-shia/why-i-left-shiaism/"

So tell me how did this Rafidi member, from the old forum whom you debated for ten years yourself, become a Muslim??? How do you become a Muslim from a Rafidi??? What did he have to say or do??? Or what did you make him say or do??? How do you become a Muslim??? By saying Shahadathain, yes??? The Rafidi (Shia) already believes in and says the Shahadathain, so what does he further say or do to become a Muslim??? Well come on hot shot!
Title: Re: Life after Shia questions
Post by: Bolani Muslim on December 17, 2014, 03:10:29 AM

Your words,

"Why I left Shiasm (by Husayn. A Rafidi  member from the old forum whom I debated myself for literally TEN years till he became Muslim!!!): http://forum.twelvershia.net/general-sunni-vs-shia/why-i-left-shiaism/"

So tell me how did this Rafidi member, from the old forum whom you debated for ten years yourself, become a Muslim??? How do you become a Muslim from a Rafidi??? What did he have to say or do??? Or what did you make him say or do??? How do you become a Muslim??? By saying Shahadathain, yes??? The Rafidi (Shia) already believes in and says the Shahadathain, so what does he further say or do to become a Muslim??? Well come on hot shot!
Just because a person says the shahada doesn't make them a Muslim. The Qadianis say shahada, love Hazrat Muhammad (saw), pray, ect, but are unanimously declared as kaafir by Sunnis and shias. Same thing with Quranists, agha khanis, and definetly some twelvers.
Title: Re: Life after Shia questions
Post by: Ebn Hussein on December 17, 2014, 10:43:30 PM
^Ibn Muljim the Shia of Ali, who fought with Ali, as a soldier of Ali at Siffin, eventually killed Ali and thought of himself as being a pious person. Rawafidh are Munafiq Akhi, they don't understand tawhid, they think tawhid means to repeat the shahada, well I can teach the Shahada to a parrot, Ibn Muljim the mal3un also said the shahada, he was a Khariji, in fact they are KNOWN for their worship, well does it make him a good Muslim? Does it make a parrot a Muslim (if you teach it the shahada)? Does it make Mushrik Twelver Muslim if they repeat the Shahada even a million times a day? Certainly NOT, because they negate the shahada with all of the kufriyat and shirkiyat which are essentially parts of their khurafi Deen and ADVOCATED and TAUGHT by their Shayatin (Ayatullats):

Title: Re: Life after Shia questions
Post by: Ameen on December 22, 2014, 06:52:30 AM

Your words,

"Why I left Shiasm (by Husayn. A Rafidi  member from the old forum whom I debated myself for literally TEN years till he became Muslim!!!): http://forum.twelvershia.net/general-sunni-vs-shia/why-i-left-shiaism/"

So tell me how did this Rafidi member, from the old forum whom you debated for ten years yourself, become a Muslim??? How do you become a Muslim from a Rafidi??? What did he have to say or do??? Or what did you make him say or do??? How do you become a Muslim??? By saying Shahadathain, yes??? The Rafidi (Shia) already believes in and says the Shahadathain, so what does he further say or do to become a Muslim??? Well come on hot shot!
Just because a person says the shahada doesn't make them a Muslim. The Qadianis say shahada, love Hazrat Muhammad (saw), pray, ect, but are unanimously declared as kaafir by Sunnis and shias. Same thing with Quranists, agha khanis, and definetly some twelvers.


Brother let me break it down to you in simple tems, when it comes to thought, opinion and point of view we have two types; 1, What Allah and his Messenger (pbuh) thinks and 2, What we (humans or muslims) think. There is a huge difference here. According to Allah and his Messenger (pbuh) who is and remains a Muslim is one thing but according to us is another. I will contune this.
Title: Re: Life after Shia questions
Post by: Ameen on December 22, 2014, 07:27:13 PM
Continued!

To enter Islam by becoming a Muslim one must say the Shahadah, one must give the two testimonies;
1, Ash hado an la ilahaa illallah ho wahdahu la sharee Kalah.
I swear that there is no deity worthy of worship except Allah and he is the only one, he has no associate or partner.
2, Ash hado Anna Muhammadan abdohu Wa Rasool.
I swear that Mhuammad (pbuh) is his Prophet and spokesman.

Now anyone who says and believes in this, is a Muslim. The ones who don't accept and believe in this are called nonbelievers (kafir). From a Muslim to being or becoming a nonbeliever (kafir), one needs to announce and declare that they have left Islam. In other words one needs to go back from their testimonies that they have given and then announce and declare their new faith.

Brothers, what you, I or anybody else thinks is our thought, opinion and point of view. According to us, who we think remains a Muslim and which Muslim we think has become a kafir, is nothing but accusation based on our thinking. This is something we need to refrain from and bring a stop to. We should focus on and consider ourselves. This is who we should be more concerned about, ourselves rather than others. We are not going to be questioned about others but ourselves. And no one is going to be berried with us or enter out graves, except us.

I'm not interested in people's opinion, who they think has become a kafir or which Muslims they accuse of Kufar. Can someone provide me with clear verses and or hadiths about, which Muslims have become Kafir according to Allah and his Messenger (pbuh), while still saying and believing in the two testimonies???
Title: Re: Life after Shia questions
Post by: Ameen on December 22, 2014, 07:37:42 PM
Brother Ebn Hussein, "Ibne Muljim, the Shia of Ali", how was he the Shia of Hazrath Ali (as)??? He was the killer and murderer of Hazrath Ali (as), so how can he be two things at one time, a friend and enemy of Ali (as)??? Either he was his Shia or he wasn't. Would it be nice for me to say that the killers and murderers of Hazrath Umar (ra) and Hazrath Usman (ra) were their friends and Sunnis??? Accusing and coming out with silly statements doesn't suit anybody. The enemies of Hazrath Ali (as) were those who went to war with him. Those who fought him by becoming against him to such an extreme level. Your enemy is the one who fights you by going against you. Your friend is the one who protects by standing firm with you.
Title: Re: Life after Shia questions
Post by: Hadrami on December 22, 2014, 09:17:21 PM
Continued!

To enter Islam by becoming a Muslim one must say the Shahadah, one must give the two testimonies;
1, Ash hado an la ilahaa illallah ho wahdahu la sharee Kalah.
I swear that there is no deity worthy of worship except Allah and he is the only one, he has no associate or partner.
2, Ash hado Anna Muhammadan abdohu Wa Rasool.
I swear that Mhuammad (pbuh) is his Prophet and spokesman.

Now anyone who says and believes in this, is a Muslim. The ones who don't accept and believe in this are called nonbelievers (kafir).

But according to Shia Imam, not believing in just 1 of the 12 = rejecting Nubuwwah (the second testimony).

Let me quote what you wrote in the other thread http://forum.twelvershia.net/general-discussion/smashing-the-myth-of-taking-ahlulbayt-as-the-only-conveyors-of-islamic-knowledge/msg1271/#msg1271
Quote
To reject "Nabuwath" or any part or bit of it, results in "Kufar"[/size]. And to associate anything, anyone or yourself to "Allah" results in "Shirk".

So using your definition plus imam's saying, then Ebn Hussein, me & all Sunni of this world don't believe in the other half of shahada. What does it make us? Muslim?
Title: Re: Life after Shia questions
Post by: Ameen on December 22, 2014, 11:47:00 PM
Continued!

To enter Islam by becoming a Muslim one must say the Shahadah, one must give the two testimonies;
1, Ash hado an la ilahaa illallah ho wahdahu la sharee Kalah.
I swear that there is no deity worthy of worship except Allah and he is the only one, he has no associate or partner.
2, Ash hado Anna Muhammadan abdohu Wa Rasool.
I swear that Mhuammad (pbuh) is his Prophet and spokesman.

Now anyone who says and believes in this, is a Muslim. The ones who don't accept and believe in this are called nonbelievers (kafir).

But according to Shia Imam, not believing in just 1 of the 12 = rejecting Nubuwwah (the second testimony).

Let me quote what you wrote in the other thread http://forum.twelvershia.net/general-discussion/smashing-the-myth-of-taking-ahlulbayt-as-the-only-conveyors-of-islamic-knowledge/msg1271/#msg1271
Quote
To reject "Nabuwath" or any part or bit of it, results in "Kufar"[/size]. And to associate anything, anyone or yourself to "Allah" results in "Shirk".

So using your definition plus imam's saying, then Ebn Hussein, me & all Sunni of this world don't believe in the other half of shahada. What does it make us? Muslim?

Rather than answering the matter your turning it around and derailing it. According to certain brothers some Shias are considered Kafir because of their belief and faith. You haven't told me how this would make them a kafir. How would you be a kafir if you accused certain companions of being half hearted Muslims or having a weak Eemaan??? Or if you accused certain companions or wives of the Propher (pbuh) of having sinned, how would this make you a kafir??? Or what other belief would throw you out of the fold of Islam. Prove or at least explain this to me through Quran and Sunnah rather than what you, I or anybody else thinks.
Title: Re: Life after Shia questions
Post by: Ameen on December 22, 2014, 11:52:47 PM
Plus brother Hadrami, I asked you about who wouldn't remain a Muslim through Quran and Sunnah, according to Allah and his Messenger (pbuh). Not what I or you think. I did mention Nabuwath but where did I say that you would be a kafir or would become one if you didn't accept Shia Imamath???

Brothers need to explain why they consider certain other Muslims as kafir and out of the fold of Islam.
Title: Re: Life after Shia questions
Post by: MuslimK on December 22, 2014, 11:59:12 PM
Rather than answering the matter your turning it around and derailing it. According to certain brothers some Shias are considered Kafir because of their belief and faith. You haven't told me how this would make them a kafir. How would you be a kafir if you accused certain companions of being half hearted Muslims or having a weak Eemaan??? Or if you accused certain companions or wives of the Propher (pbuh) of having sinned, how would this make you a kafir??? Or what other belief would throw you out of the fold of Islam. Prove or at least explain this to me through Quran and Sunnah rather than what you, I or anybody else thinks.

سلام علیکم
You know that is not true. Nobody calls Shia Kafir because they accuse certain companions of having weak eman or committing sin.


Plus brother Hadrami, I asked you about who wouldn't remain a Muslim through Quran and Sunnah, according to Allah and his Messenger (pbuh). Not what I or you think. I did mention Nabuwath but where did I say that you would be a kafir or would become one if you didn't accept Shia Imamath???

Brothers need to explain why they consider certain other Muslims as kafir and out of the fold of Islam.

It is not about what you say. Your opinion changes nothing in the Shia beliefs. It is about what Shia text and major early and contemporary scholars say.
Title: Re: Life after Shia questions
Post by: Ameen on December 23, 2014, 12:15:30 AM
Rather than answering the matter your turning it around and derailing it. According to certain brothers some Shias are considered Kafir because of their belief and faith. You haven't told me how this would make them a kafir. How would you be a kafir if you accused certain companions of being half hearted Muslims or having a weak Eemaan??? Or if you accused certain companions or wives of the Propher (pbuh) of having sinned, how would this make you a kafir??? Or what other belief would throw you out of the fold of Islam. Prove or at least explain this to me through Quran and Sunnah rather than what you, I or anybody else thinks.

سلام علیکم
You know that is not true. Nobody calls Shia Kafir because they accuse certain companions of having weak eman or committing sin.


Plus brother Hadrami, I asked you about who wouldn't remain a Muslim through Quran and Sunnah, according to Allah and his Messenger (pbuh). Not what I or you think. I did mention Nabuwath but where did I say that you would be a kafir or would become one if you didn't accept Shia Imamath???

Brothers need to explain why they consider certain other Muslims as kafir and out of the fold of Islam.

It is not about what you say. Your opinion changes nothing in the Shia beliefs. It is about what Shia text and major early and contemporary scholars say.

You are still not coming out clear and clean. Do you believe that certain Shias are kafirs or have become kafir because of what they say and believe in??? You are also a group of people who do not represent the Ahle Sunnah of the entire world or their views. What you say is your thought, opinion and point of view but I still would like to here it. Come out straight and clean. What do Shia text and major early and contemporary scholars say??? Tell me!

Title: Re: Life after Shia questions
Post by: Hadrami on December 23, 2014, 12:53:13 AM
What? Me derailing? Of course not, im just pointing out your double standard in complaining about others calling shias kuffar when it is your scholars who loves calling the best of Muslim as kuffar.

Cut the BS about half hearted iman etc, we know what your scholars think about abu bakar. According to them, he has no iman, not 1/2 or 1/4 and that other taqiyah term youve been using.

The reason why believing Abu Bakar RA a kafir makes a person a kafir is because that person denies what Allah clearly say about Muhajirin such as Abu Bakar RA, not because we believe he is infalible. Another reason is we know that according to your imam, Sunni = people who denied nubuwwah = kuffar.

So how on earth you are complaining about us when the one with extremist takfiri mind is your scholars???
Have you ever complained to your scholar and tell them to renounce their takfiri mind?
Title: Re: Life after Shia questions
Post by: Ameen on December 23, 2014, 01:17:39 PM
What? Me derailing? Of course not, im just pointing out your double standard in complaining about others calling shias kuffar when it is your scholars who loves calling the best of Muslim as kuffar.

Cut the BS about half hearted iman etc, we know what your scholars think about abu bakar. According to them, he has no iman, not 1/2 or 1/4 and that other taqiyah term youve been using.

The reason why believing Abu Bakar RA a kafir makes a person a kafir is because that person denies what Allah clearly say about Muhajirin such as Abu Bakar RA, not because we believe he is infalible. Another reason is we know that according to your imam, Sunni = people who denied nubuwwah = kuffar.

So how on earth you are complaining about us when the one with extremist takfiri mind is your scholars???
Have you ever complained to your scholar and tell them to renounce their takfiri mind?

Calm down brother and relax. There is no need to get personal. It is just a general discussion. First you speak about takfeer, take a look at all the Muslim organisation/parties/groups who are involved in and carry out terrorist activities world wide, they all claim to be and no doubt are from the Ahle Sunnah.

Second explain to me where have I accused any Muslim, individual, group, party, sect etc to be a kafir. What the Shia scholars or any Shia individual say, please put it forward as evidence to back your claim and we will discuss it. Bring forward your worries rather than the abusive attitude and language.

Thirdly I don't want your opinion and I'm not interested in mine either, prove to me through Quran and Sunnah and absolutely clearly that you would become a kafir if you say this, do that or believe in this. It doesn't matter if it is the companions, wives or any other relative of the Prophet (pbuh), how would you become a kafir by not accepting and believing in them, in the manner you have put forward??!

Don't forget to put forward references for what Shia scholars say and the claims you have made. I will discuss them one by one.
Title: Re: Life after Shia questions
Post by: Ameen on December 23, 2014, 01:24:38 PM
Brother Hadrami, certain Ahle Sunnah scholars have even refused to accept that Yazeed was a kafir. They believe he was very wrong in what he did and most certainly was a very bad man for what he did but they refuse to accept that he was and became a kafir for what he did. And you speak about Hazrath Abu Bakar (ra) that certain Shia scholars have said that he was a kafir full stop. Is this true??? Then please provide me with those references and prove to me how would you become a kafir by accusing someone of becoming a kafir??? And also how would someone become a kafir because you believe and accuse them of it???
Title: Re: Life after Shia questions
Post by: Ameen on December 23, 2014, 01:38:43 PM
Brother Bolani, Salam Alaykum.

There are a number of Ex-Shias on this board. Brother Husayn, Efendi (owner of gift2shias.com) and myself. There are some threads about Ex-Shias on this forum:

The Rise of the Sunnis & EX-Shias [VIDEO]: http://forum.twelvershia.net/general-sunni-vs-shia/the-rise-of-the-sunnais-ex-shias-%28video%29/

Why I left Shiasm (by Husayn. A Rafidi  member from the old forum whom I debated myself for literally TEN years till he became Muslim!!!): http://forum.twelvershia.net/general-sunni-vs-shia/why-i-left-shiaism/

As for my story, well It's a bit long, maybe I write something about it one day, as for now here is ONE of MANY main reasons why I believe that Shiism is the religion of satan and the unholy progeny of satan (it's written by myself but from brother Ibn Al-Hindi's aka swords of sunnah's amazing blog) and not the religion and school of the Ahl Al-Bayt:

http://youpuncturedtheark.wordpress.com/2012/05/06/from-whom-do-you-take-your-religion/

As for our families, well, it's kinda private question, but those who like can answer of course. May Allah bless you for leaving the religion of shirk for Islam, Tawhid and Sunnah.

As for schools of thought. These are Fiqhi schools, ever rotten Marja' is a fiqhi school (they differ on tons of issues, from najasat, to the ruling of the jumu3a prayer), so don't be bothered by the cheap shots of the Rawafid. What is important is that you are a Muslim now (whatever fiqh you follow) and not an Imamite Mushrik.

Can you explain to me why you believe that Shiaism is the religion of Satan, the religion of Shirk??? And for you brother Hadrami and brother Hani, here we have a brother who doesn't believe that certain Shias are kafir or have become one , due to what they say, do and believe in but in fact this brother claims that Shiaism as a whole is the religion of Satan, the religion of shirk.

What do you brothers have to say about this??? What is Shirk and who is a Mushrik??? What is Kufar and who is a kafir??? What do you have to say??? According to Allah Satan became a kafir, now how is Shiaism the religion of Satan, who is a kafir, and also the religion of shirk at the same time???
Title: Re: Life after Shia questions
Post by: Hadrami on December 24, 2014, 01:15:17 AM
Then please provide me with those references and prove to me how would you become a kafir by accusing someone of becoming a kafir??? And also how would someone become a kafir because you believe and accuse them of it???

Can you at least try to read what I post? It makes someone a kafir because those with such believe have gone against Allah who testify that Abu Bakar RA is not a kafir. Get it?

Calm down brother and relax. There is no need to get personal. It is just a general discussion. First you speak about takfeer, take a look at all the Muslim organisation/parties/groups who are involved in and carry out terrorist activities world wide, they all claim to be and no doubt are from the Ahle Sunnah.

You'd probably too young to know where those terrorism ideas came from. It was pioneered by secular/marxist/shia organisations in the late 70s/early 80s & unfortunately some sunni groups now are embracing it without knowing that they are following what is originally shia/secularist diseases.

Thirdly I don't want your opinion and I'm not interested in mine either, prove to me through Quran and Sunnah and absolutely clearly that you would become a kafir if you say this, do that or believe in this. It doesn't matter if it is the companions, wives or any other relative of the Prophet (pbuh), how would you become a kafir by not accepting and believing in them, in the manner you have put forward??!

Don't worry, i'll give one of your greatest scholar opinion who said all Sunni are disbeliever.

Don't forget to put forward references for what Shia scholars say and the claims you have made. I will discuss them one by one.
As a start, let's just use 1 reference so we don't go all over the place. You know al-Majlisi right? Just in case you don't, hes the greatest Iranian shia scholar whose works is respected by all Shia scholars to this day. Can I quote from one of his works to proof that shia is a takfiri sect?
Title: Re: Life after Shia questions
Post by: Ameen on December 24, 2014, 12:08:39 PM
Then please provide me with those references and prove to me how would you become a kafir by accusing someone of becoming a kafir??? And also how would someone become a kafir because you believe and accuse them of it???

Can you at least try to read what I post? It makes someone a kafir because those with such believe have gone against Allah who testify that Abu Bakar RA is not a kafir. Get it?

Calm down brother and relax. There is no need to get personal. It is just a general discussion. First you speak about takfeer, take a look at all the Muslim organisation/parties/groups who are involved in and carry out terrorist activities world wide, they all claim to be and no doubt are from the Ahle Sunnah.

You'd probably too young to know where those terrorism ideas came from. It was pioneered by secular/marxist/shia organisations in the late 70s/early 80s & unfortunately some sunni groups now are embracing it without knowing that they are following what is originally shia/secularist diseases.

Thirdly I don't want your opinion and I'm not interested in mine either, prove to me through Quran and Sunnah and absolutely clearly that you would become a kafir if you say this, do that or believe in this. It doesn't matter if it is the companions, wives or any other relative of the Prophet (pbuh), how would you become a kafir by not accepting and believing in them, in the manner you have put forward??!

Don't worry, i'll give one of your greatest scholar opinion who said all Sunni are disbeliever.

Don't forget to put forward references for what Shia scholars say and the claims you have made. I will discuss them one by one.
As a start, let's just use 1 reference so we don't go all over the place. You know al-Majlisi right? Just in case you don't, hes the greatest Iranian shia scholar whose works is respected by all Shia scholars to this day. Can I quote from one of his works to proof that shia is a takfiri sect?

Who said that Hazrath Abu Bakar (ra) was a kafir??? If someone believes that he was a munafiq then that is another thing. If someone has accused Hazrath Abu Bakar (ra) of kufar or claim he was a kafir then, i would like to see this. Going against what is said in the Quran either makes you a sinner or a kafir or a mushrik. I read very carefully what you say but unfortunately you are not making any sense. You're giving me a lot words and advice but that is it, nothing concrete and solid. You're beating around the bush. I would like to here what these Shia scholars say and I also what to know why certain Shias are Kafir. You haven't given me any reference from the Quran to back what you're saying. All you're doing is going on about it rather than taking it forward.
Title: Re: Life after Shia questions
Post by: Hadrami on December 25, 2014, 07:08:08 AM
Who said that Hazrath Abu Bakar (ra) was a kafir??? If someone believes that he was a munafiq then that is another thing. If someone has accused Hazrath Abu Bakar (ra) of kufar or claim he was a kafir then, i would like to see this. Going against what is said in the Quran either makes you a sinner or a kafir or a mushrik. I read very carefully what you say but unfortunately you are not making any sense. You're giving me a lot words and advice but that is it, nothing concrete and solid. You're beating around the bush. I would like to here what these Shia scholars say and I also what to know why certain Shias are Kafir. You haven't given me any reference from the Quran to back what you're saying. All you're doing is going on about it rather than taking it forward.

Munafiq is worse than kafir. Its either you dont know much about your own scholar's belief or you just playing the taqiyah card. In this case, I believe youre a very passionate but extremely ignorant & uninformed Shia.

Let's open al-Majlisi, one of the greatest shia scholar from the what is now known as the great "Islamic" Republic of Iran. In his book Hayat al-Qulub Vol 3 Chapter "There is Imam in every age & his obedience is wajib" Part "It is mandatory to know the imam of the time"

"Allamah" Majlisi wrote

Quote
It must be understood that among SHIA, the confession/belief in the Imam is one of the principles of faith and the one who discards it will be, in the akhirat, with the kuffar and mushrik

Now, did Sunni believe in your hidden mahdi? No! So what does it make us?
Or what about this quote from that same chapter

Quote
In Kamaluddin with reliable chain of narrators that people asked Imam Ridha (AS): "If a man dies without knowing his imam has he died the death of jahiliyah? The Hazrat said: Yes, a man who doubts the Imamah of Imam or desist from him is a kafir and the one who denies the Imamah or shows hate towards Imam is a mushrik, that is, like an idol worshipper"

Sunni not just doubt your mahdi, we deny that hidden mahdi exist, so according to imam, Sunni are also mushrik.

That is just a drop of the ocean and you want to deny that shia is a takfiri sect? Instead of asking for proof & reference, why dont you just read your own books?
Title: Re: Life after Shia questions
Post by: Ameen on December 25, 2014, 11:53:59 AM
Who said that Hazrath Abu Bakar (ra) was a kafir??? If someone believes that he was a munafiq then that is another thing. If someone has accused Hazrath Abu Bakar (ra) of kufar or claim he was a kafir then, i would like to see this. Going against what is said in the Quran either makes you a sinner or a kafir or a mushrik. I read very carefully what you say but unfortunately you are not making any sense. You're giving me a lot words and advice but that is it, nothing concrete and solid. You're beating around the bush. I would like to here what these Shia scholars say and I also what to know why certain Shias are Kafir. You haven't given me any reference from the Quran to back what you're saying. All you're doing is going on about it rather than taking it forward.

Munafiq is worse than kafir. Its either you dont know much about your own scholar's belief or you just playing the taqiyah card. In this case, I believe youre a very passionate but extremely ignorant & uninformed Shia.

Let's open al-Majlisi, one of the greatest shia scholar from the what is now known as the great "Islamic" Republic of Iran. In his book Hayat al-Qulub Vol 3 Chapter "There is Imam in every age & his obedience is wajib" Part "It is mandatory to know the imam of the time"

"Allamah" Majlisi wrote

Quote
It must be understood that among SHIA, the confession/belief in the Imam is one of the principles of faith and the one who discards it will be, in the akhirat, with the kuffar and mushrik

Now, did Sunni believe in your hidden mahdi? No! So what does it make us?
Or what about this quote from that same chapter

Quote
In Kamaluddin with reliable chain of narrators that people asked Imam Ridha (AS): "If a man dies without knowing his imam has he died the death of jahiliyah? The Hazrat said: Yes, a man who doubts the Imamah of Imam or desist from him is a kafir and the one who denies the Imamah or shows hate towards Imam is a mushrik, that is, like an idol worshipper"

Sunni not just doubt your mahdi, we deny that hidden mahdi exist, so according to imam, Sunni are also mushrik.

That is just a drop of the ocean and you want to deny that shia is a takfiri sect? Instead of asking for proof & reference, why dont you just read your own books?

Brother thanks for putting these references forward. I am not going to disregard and dispute over the narration or narrators like others do, when I put references forward. I would like to take this discussion forward. Brother you are still beating around the bush. You still haven't answered my question that how does one become a Mushrik, kafir or munafiq just because some has accused you of shirk, nifaq or Kufr ???? Just because someone believes that you are??? Explain to me!

What people think and what their thought, opinion and point of view is down to them. You accuse Shia of the same thing, now this doesn't mean they have become Mushrik, munafiq or kafir because if you believe in this then that's fine, continue to believe in what ever you want. But to prove your thought, opinion and point of view is entirely a different matter.You don't become one just because someone thinks that you are and accuses you of it.

This discussion started off by a brother saying that Shiaism is the religion of satan, the religion of shirk. Some brothers, just like you, believe Shia are kafir. They are a takfeeri sect. Now we have different views here. Shirk and Kufr are two completely different things. I ask you to discuss and prove your views and you start beating around the bush, brother Ebn Hussein has gone completely silent. So what's happening???

Brother Ebn Hussain believes that Shiaism is a religion of satan, a religion of shirk. Brother Hani completely and absolutely disagrees with this. He believes that it depends on the Shia individual or sect. What they say and believe in. So what is the score???

Once again you don't become anything just because someone believes in and accuses you of something. Prove me through  Quran and Sunnah that, never mind about Shia, so and so is a kafir or Mushrik??? I advise brother Ebn Hussein to learn and educate himself about shirk and Kufr. These are two completely different things. Shiaism can't be the religion of satan and the religion of shirk at the same time. It's either one or the other.

I am still waiting for him to come out of hiding and explain himself!
Title: Re: Life after Shia questions
Post by: Hadrami on December 25, 2014, 12:49:20 PM
I dont know how many times i have to repeat myself that when shia scholars accuse Abu Bakar RA as kafir, munafiq, full of treachery etc that belief itself is kufr because it is a belief which is against Allah testimony that:
- he was an emigrant & believer
- he was the second of the two whose Rasulullah shallallahu alaihi wasallam said "Allah is with US".
- he fought with his life & wealth
- he became muslim before fathul makkah
- he was the person who pledge under the tree whose Allah was pleased with
he is so full of virtues from all those examples above that its mind boggling that after reading al-Qur'an someone would still believe shia scholar that he was a bad man.

Anyway, you can find all that in al Qur'an since there is no use for me to mention sunni ahadith. Please don't ask the same question 3-4-5 times OK. Its annoying.
Title: Re: Life after Shia questions
Post by: Ameen on December 25, 2014, 03:14:09 PM
Ok brother, i am not going to ask you this question again.

The definition of "kufr" is the rejection of   "nabuwath" or any part of it. What i mean by any part is that, one needs to accept and believe in all Messengers and Prophets and what ever was revealed upon them. Any rejection of any messenger and or Prophet or what ever was revealed upon whom ever results in kufr and you become a kafir.

Now would you agree to this??? If yes then explain to me that Hazrath Abu Bakar (ra), a great companipn of the Prophet (pbuh), since when did  he or his Emaan become part of "nabuwath"???

Like i said before going against or disregarding certain things concerning Allah himself, never mind about the Prophet (pbuh), would make you a sinner (guehgaar) but not a kafir.

How would or how does having suspicion and doubt about any companions faith and belief make you a kafir??? Explain to me this.

Now if Allah says that Abu Bakar (ra) was a believer and a firm believer, a very strong believer but certain people believe and accept that he went astray on and over certain matters after the death of the Prophet (pbuh) then, how is this kufr???

Exain this to me please brother. As far as i am concerned no Shia believes Hazrath Abu Bakar (ra) was or became a kafir. If there is anyone out there who does then, i would like them to step forward.

You or anyone making accusations that this is what Shias believe in and that is what Shias believe in, please i have heard enough of this.
Title: Re: Life after Shia questions
Post by: Ebn Hussein on December 25, 2014, 09:40:24 PM
Brother Hadhrami, why you wasting your time on this taqiyyah mongering kid. I mean for God's sake, seriously ... he doesn't even know that a Munafiq is worse than a Kafir, in fact a Munafiq is the lowest part of hell, yet look what this 'smart' boy says:

Quote from: Rafidilink=topic=191.msg1357#msg1357 date=1419383717


Who said that Hazrath Abu Bakar (ra) was a kafir??? If someone believes that he was a munafiq then that is another thing.

Wallahi I laughed so hard. Read my signature and you will understand that Imam al-Shafi'i was right when he basically said that the Rafidah are the most lying and dumbest creatures walking the earth.
Title: Re: Life after Shia questions
Post by: Ameen on December 25, 2014, 11:04:07 PM
Brother Hadhrami, why you wasting your time on this taqiyyah mongering kid. I mean for God's sake, seriously ... he doesn't even know that a Munafiq is worse than a Kafir, in fact a Munafiq is the lowest part of hell, yet look what this 'smart' boy says:

Quote from: Rafidilink=topic=191.msg1357#msg1357 date=1419383717


Who said that Hazrath Abu Bakar (ra) was a kafir??? If someone believes that he was a munafiq then that is another thing.

Wallahi I laughed so hard. Read my signature and you will understand that Imam al-Shafi'i was right when he basically said that the Rafidah are the most lying and dumbest creatures walking the earth.

Between me and you, our attitude, language and behaviour towards each other tells, who is a kid and who isn't. Even kids nowa days don't even behave the way you do. But i guess you are what you are. Don't forget you are an ex rafidah and how many years of your life have you been a rafidah??? So when did you finally decide to leave this religion of satan and shirk that you now speak of???

You keep yapping on about thaqeya, along with kufr, shirk etc, I advise you to gain some basic knowledge and information about things and do your homework, before you start shooting off. You can't answer anything I have put forward and that is for sure. As far as thaqeya is concerned, I can easily introduce and talk about myself, you on the other hand can't. So how am I in thaqeya when you're in constant hiding about your belief and faith???

Once again to refresh your memory, which Sunni are you and why??? Can you introduce yourself??? From the rafidah religion which Sunni did you become and why??? Don't yapp on about thaqeya in front of me. Munafiq is worse than a kafir??? Who said anything about this??? Why don't you answer the questions related to your posts or just remain silent and stay out of the way, if you can't say anything useful???

You can't explain kufr then, ok. If someone considers any companion to be a munafiq, how does that companion become a munafiq and how does the accuser become a kafir because of this??? Prove to me through Quran and Sunnah or get someone who can and stay out of the way and stop derailing the discussion.

Title: Re: Life after Shia questions
Post by: Ebn Hussein on December 26, 2014, 12:25:45 AM
^Kids don't admit mistakes. You made a blunder and write and essay to cover it. Surely you are an ignorant kid, have a nice day. Also it's called Ex-Rafidi. Rafidah is a sect, you can't be an "Ex-Christianity" for example. Tse, tse, tse ... the level is so low here, where are the knowledgable Shias?

Don't interview me, who the heck are you anway? I've dozens of posts here where I express my belief, the rest is none of your business. The following made me laugh:

So how am I in thaqeya when you're in constant hiding about your belief and faith???

What is "Thaqeya". It's called Taqiyyah and the only one who is hiding constantly is your 12th Imam, the useless coward.
Title: Re: Life after Shia questions
Post by: Hadrami on December 27, 2014, 12:11:13 AM
Brother Hadhrami, why you wasting your time on this taqiyyah mongering kid. I mean for God's sake, seriously ... he doesn't even know that a Munafiq is worse than a Kafir, in fact a Munafiq is the lowest part of hell, yet look what this 'smart' boy says:

Quote from: Rafidilink=topic=191.msg1357#msg1357 date=1419383717


Who said that Hazrath Abu Bakar (ra) was a kafir??? If someone believes that he was a munafiq then that is another thing.

Wallahi I laughed so hard. Read my signature and you will understand that Imam al-Shafi'i was right when he basically said that the Rafidah are the most lying and dumbest creatures walking the earth.

I want to know what he really believes. That quote above is nothing compare to this one below

Now if Allah says that Abu Bakar (ra) was a believer and a firm believer, a very strong believer but certain people believe and accept that he went astray on and over certain matters after the death of the Prophet (pbuh) then, how is this kufr???

This is the worst comment so far. I advise you, Ameen, to retract that statement and repent. This is my last post. You need help ASAP.
Title: Re: Life after Shia questions
Post by: Hani on December 27, 2014, 03:03:27 PM
This topic is not very fruitful I suggest all of you stop arguing.
Title: Re: Life after Shia questions
Post by: Ameen on December 27, 2014, 05:20:40 PM
^Kids don't admit mistakes. You made a blunder and write and essay to cover it. Surely you are an ignorant kid, have a nice day. Also it's called Ex-Rafidi. Rafidah is a sect, you can't be an "Ex-Christianity" for example. Tse, tse, tse ... the level is so low here, where are the knowledgable Shias?

Don't interview me, who the heck are you anway? I've dozens of posts here where I express my belief, the rest is none of your business. The following made me laugh:

So how am I in thaqeya when you're in constant hiding about your belief and faith???

What is "Thaqeya". It's called Taqiyyah and the only one who is hiding constantly is your 12th Imam, the useless coward.

Brother what or which blunder did I make??? I strongly agree with brother Hani and advise you that please don't turn this in to an argument. Lets keep it a discussion. Can you define Shirk, Kufr and Taqiyya for me??? I am not going to comment on your sarcasm, slander and attacks from now on. You want to continue in such a manner then that is down to you.
Title: Re: Life after Shia questions
Post by: MuslimK on December 27, 2014, 05:24:46 PM

Now if Allah says that Abu Bakar (ra) was a believer and a firm believer, a very strong believer but certain people believe and accept that he went astray on and over certain matters after the death of the Prophet (pbuh) then, how is this kufr???

This is the worst comment so far. I advise you, Ameen, to retract that statement and repent. This is my last post. You need help ASAP.

Thats it! No more replies to such ridiculous comments.
Title: Re: Life after Shia questions
Post by: Ameen on December 27, 2014, 05:31:18 PM
Brother Hadhrami, why you wasting your time on this taqiyyah mongering kid. I mean for God's sake, seriously ... he doesn't even know that a Munafiq is worse than a Kafir, in fact a Munafiq is the lowest part of hell, yet look what this 'smart' boy says:

Quote from: Rafidilink=topic=191.msg1357#msg1357 date=1419383717


Who said that Hazrath Abu Bakar (ra) was a kafir??? If someone believes that he was a munafiq then that is another thing.

Wallahi I laughed so hard. Read my signature and you will understand that Imam al-Shafi'i was right when he basically said that the Rafidah are the most lying and dumbest creatures walking the earth.

I want to know what he really believes. That quote above is nothing compare to this one below

Now if Allah says that Abu Bakar (ra) was a believer and a firm believer, a very strong believer but certain people believe and accept that he went astray on and over certain matters after the death of the Prophet (pbuh) then, how is this kufr???

This is the worst comment so far. I advise you, Ameen, to retract that statement and repent. This is my last post. You need help ASAP.

All I asked from you was how do you become a Kafir by accusing anyone of Kufr??? What you have done is cross questioned or turned the discussion around instead of backing and proving your claim. I have not come across any Shia that has openly turned around and said "we believe that Hazrath Abu Bakar (ra) was a Kafir". If there is then I would like to here it from that Shia and I will discuss this with them in great detail.

Now if someone did believe that Hazrath Abu Bakar (ra) was a Kafir then how does this make the accuser or the accused a kafir?!! This is all I have asked you and all you have done is beat around the bush or turn this discussion in to an argument. Do you want to attract Shias and welcome them for a healthy discussion or do you want to discourage them from speaking to you because of your attitude, behaviour and ways.
Title: Re: Life after Shia questions
Post by: Ameen on December 27, 2014, 05:41:24 PM

Now if Allah says that Abu Bakar (ra) was a believer and a firm believer, a very strong believer but certain people believe and accept that he went astray on and over certain matters after the death of the Prophet (pbuh) then, how is this kufr???

This is the worst comment so far. I advise you, Ameen, to retract that statement and repent. This is my last post. You need help ASAP.

Thats it! No more replies to such ridiculous comments.

What about the slander, attacks, accusing and abusing, calling names and all the other comments, such as calling people's faith and belief as wretched, the religion of Satan, the religion of shirk and all the rest of it, that is being said and going on right in front of your eyes and right under your nose???

Do we have any justice, fairness or may be a little shame here if not much, to be reasonable from all sides and parties??? Or are we bias but just turn a blind eye to it and then accuse others of it???
Title: Re: Life after Shia questions
Post by: Ameen on December 28, 2014, 04:48:51 PM
My dear brothers you mention and talk a lot about Tabarra and Cursing. Take a look at the following and lets here your thought, opinion and point of view about this.


Muawiyah Instituting The Curse Of Imam ‘Ali (as)

Muawiyah not only fought Imam ‘Ali, he cursed Imam ‘Ali as well. Furthermore, he did force/make everybody to curse ‘Ali (as). To prove it, we begin with

Sahih Muslim:

Narrated Sa’d Ibn Abi Waqqas: Muawiyah, the son of Abu Sufyan, give order to Sa’d, and told him: "What prevents you that you are refraining from cursing Abu Turab (nickname of ‘Ali)?”Sa’d replied: "Don’t you remember that the Prophet said three things about (the virtue of) ‘Ali? So I will never curse ‘Ali."

Sunni reference: Sahih Muslim, Chapter of Virtues of Companions, Section of Virtues of ‘Ali, Arabic, v4, p1871, Tradition #32.

For the English version of Sahih Muslim, see Chapter CMXCVI, p1284,

Tradition #5916

 أمر معاوية بن أبي سفيان سعدا ، فقال: مامنعك أن تسب أبا التراب ، فقال: أما ما ذكرت ثلاثا قالهن له رسول الله (ص) فلن أسبه
The above tradition, by the way, indicates that Muawiyah was surprised why Sa’d does not follow his order of cursing ‘Ali, like others do. This shows that cursing ‘Ali was a habit (Sunnah) for people at that time. Who made this Sunnah? Was it ‘Ali, or those who fought him? Now, who fought against ‘Ali? Wasn’t he Muawiyah (the beloved companion of Wahhabis)? So this implies that Muawiyah did innovate that habit (cursing ‘Ali as Sunnah).

Below is more references in Sahih Muslim about Sunnah cursing Imam ‘Ali (as), to prove that people were urged/forced to curse ‘Ali in public, otherwise they would face a costly sentence. It is narrated on the authority of Abu Hazim that:

The Governor of Medina who was one of the members of the house of Marwan called Sahl Ibn Sa’d, and ordered him to curse ‘Ali. But Sahl refused to do so. The governor said: "If you don’t want to curse ‘Ali, just say God curse Abu Turab (the nickname of ‘Ali).”Sahl said: "‘Ali did not like any name for himself better than Abu Turab, and ‘Ali used to become very happy when somebody would call him Abu Turab.”

Sunni reference: Sahih Muslim, Chapter of Virtues of Companions, Section of Virtues of ‘Ali, Arabic version, v4, p1874, Tradition #38.

Here is the Arabic text of the above tradition given by Sahih Muslim:

استعمل على المدينة رجل من آل مروان ، قال فدعا سهل بن سعد فأمره أن يشتم عليا ، قال: فأبى سهل ، فقال له: أمّا إذ أبيت فقل: لعن الله أبا التراب. فقال سهل: ما كان لعليٍّ اسم أحب إليهِ من أبي التراب و إن كان ليفرح إذا دُعيَّ به.
Cursing Imam ‘Ali (as) was an order from the beginning of Muawiyah’s reign for 65 years. He was Umar Ibn Abdil Aziz (may Allah be easy with him) who canceled this order after more than half a century. Some historians even believe that the Umayyah descendants themselves killed (poisoned) Umar Ibn Abdil Aziz, because he changed their Sunnah, one of which was cursing ‘Ali.

(See the Sunni book entitled "History of the Saracens,”by Amir ‘Ali, Chapter X, pp 126-127).

One of the ugliest innovations that started during the reign of Muawiyah was that Muawiyah himself, and through his order to his Governors, they used to insult Imam ‘Ali (as) during the Sermons in the Mosques. This was even done on the pulpit of the mosque of the Prophet in Medina in front of the grave of the Prophet Muhammad (May Allah bless him and his Progeny), so that even the dearest Companions of the Prophet (S), and Imam ‘Ali (as), his family and his near relatives used to hear these swears with their ears.

Sunni references:

- History of al-Tabari, v4, p188
- History of Ibn Kathir, v3, p234; v4, p154
- al-Bidayah wa al-Nihayah, v8, p259; v9, p80

On insulting ‘Ali Ibn Abi Talib and cursing him during the Umayah period starting in Muawiyah’s reign, it is reported that:

"‘Ali Ibn Abi Talib (ra) was cursed on the pulpits (manabir) of the east and west...", during the time of Muawiyah.

Sunni reference: Mu’jam al-Buldan, al-Hamawi, v5, p38

In her letter, Umm Salama, the wife of the Prophet (S) wrote to Muawiyah: "...You are cursing Allah and His messenger on your minbar, and that is because you are cursing ‘Ali Ibn Abi Talib and whomever loves him, and I am a witness that Allah and His messengerloved him.”But no one paid any attention to what she said.

Sunni reference: al-Aqd al-Fareed, v2, p300

"That it was in the days of Bani Umayyah, more than seventy thousand minbar (in mosques) upon which they cursed ‘Ali Ibn Abi-Talib, in some of what Muawiyah made a Sunnah for them."

Sunni references:

- Rabeea’ al-Abrar, al-Zamakhshari
- al-Hafidh Jalaluddin al-Suyuti

al-Shaikh Ahmad al-Hafdhi al-Shafi’i, composed 9 verses of poetry expanding on what al-Suyuti has reported in the previous quote, I translated the first three verses:

And Shaikh al-Suyuti told:

That it was what they made into a "Sunnah". Seventy thousand mibar plus ten from the top of which they cursed Haydara (‘Ali). And next to this the greatest (sins) look small, but blame ought to be directed.

Let us now see the opinion of the son of Yazid about his father and his grandfather, who was the witness from within the royal family! ...When (Yazid) offered the kingdom (throne) to his son, Muawiyah the second, in order that the flag of caliphate continues to wave in the house of Abi Sufyan!!

After his death, Muawiyah the second, gathered the people on a well known day, he stood in them preaching, he said:

"My grandfather Muawiyah stripped the command from those who deserved it, and from one who is more justified of it, for his relation to the Messenger of Allah and his being first in Islam, and that is ‘Ali Ibn Abi Talib, he (Muawiyah) took over it by your help as you are fully aware."

"Then following it my father Yazid wore the command after him, and he did not deserve it. He quarreled with the son of the daughter of the Messenger of Allah, and by that he shortened his own life... He rode his whim and hope left him behind.”

Then he cried and continued: "Surely, the greatest problems of us is our knowledge of his bad behavior and his awful ending, and that he killed the progeny (Itrah) of the Messenger of Allah, and he permitted drinking alcohol, and he fought in the sanctuary of Mecca, and destroyed the Ka’ba.”

"And I am not the one who is dressing up for your command, nor the one to be responsible for your followers... You choose for yourselves..!!"

Sunni references:

- Khulafaa al-Rasool, by Khalid Muhammad Khalid, p531 (The above quote includes author’s punctuation.)

- Sawaiq al-Muhriqah, by Ibn Hajar al-Haythami, end of Ch. 11, pp 336

Muawiyah and Yazid murdering Imam al-Hasan Ibn ‘Ali (as) by poison, reported by many, here are a few Sunni references:

1. Tathkarat al-Khawass, Sibt ibn al-Jawzi al-Hanafi, pp 191-194.
2. Ibn Abd al-Barr, in his "Seera"
3. al-Suddi
4. al-Sha’bi
5. Abu Nu’aym
Title: Re: Life after Shia questions
Post by: Taha on December 31, 2014, 03:51:14 AM
You can pick any Madhab you like, they're all the same.


Even though Malik ibn Anas, Ahmad ibn Hanbal, and Imam Shafi'i hated Abu Hanifa (http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/234969073-abu-hanifah-in-the-eys-of-sunni-scholars/)?


Although, as far as Madhahib go, the school of Abu Hanifa is probably the best as long as you stay away with the Salafi-infused modern interpretations (like from Dar'ul Ulum Deoband).  Abu Hanifa was the most tolerant of all four and his authentic views are quite different from modern "Hanifi" scholars.  He allowed beer, for example.


Your gay relatives aside, do you want to remain upon this path that you are on? Or don't you see any problems at all with Tashayyu`?



There are problems with tashayyu`, sure.  But there are more problems with Sunniism, as far as I can see.  I'd be happy to tell you in private all the issues I have with tashayyu`, but I don't want to post them publicly.



Oh, you're just upset you weren't invited to the wedding. ;p



Oh hush.  :P




How can your cousin call himself religious and practice sodomy, then tell you you're going to hell? Did he do a 'nikah' or no? This is too weird  :o 

Yeah, I don't know.  I don't think he did a 'nikah' and it was just civil, but I don't even know.  I'm not close with him or anything.  I only see him once or twice a year.  I saw pictures of the wedding on Facebook is all.


Don't believe people's random stories online brother.

Yeah, we rawafid make up stories that slander our own families just so we can one up some anonymous screen-name online. 
Title: Re: Life after Shia questions
Post by: Optimus Prime on December 31, 2014, 10:10:53 AM
My dear brothers you mention and talk a lot about Tabarra and Cursing. Take a look at the following and lets here your thought, opinion and point of view about this.


Muawiyah Instituting The Curse Of Imam ‘Ali (as)

Muawiyah not only fought Imam ‘Ali, he cursed Imam ‘Ali as well. Furthermore, he did force/make everybody to curse ‘Ali (as). To prove it, we begin with

Sahih Muslim:

Narrated Sa’d Ibn Abi Waqqas: Muawiyah, the son of Abu Sufyan, give order to Sa’d, and told him: "What prevents you that you are refraining from cursing Abu Turab (nickname of ‘Ali)?”Sa’d replied: "Don’t you remember that the Prophet said three things about (the virtue of) ‘Ali? So I will never curse ‘Ali."

Sunni reference: Sahih Muslim, Chapter of Virtues of Companions, Section of Virtues of ‘Ali, Arabic, v4, p1871, Tradition #32.

For the English version of Sahih Muslim, see Chapter CMXCVI, p1284,

Tradition #5916

 أمر معاوية بن أبي سفيان سعدا ، فقال: مامنعك أن تسب أبا التراب ، فقال: أما ما ذكرت ثلاثا قالهن له رسول الله (ص) فلن أسبه
The above tradition, by the way, indicates that Muawiyah was surprised why Sa’d does not follow his order of cursing ‘Ali, like others do. This shows that cursing ‘Ali was a habit (Sunnah) for people at that time. Who made this Sunnah? Was it ‘Ali, or those who fought him? Now, who fought against ‘Ali? Wasn’t he Muawiyah (the beloved companion of Wahhabis)? So this implies that Muawiyah did innovate that habit (cursing ‘Ali as Sunnah).

Below is more references in Sahih Muslim about Sunnah cursing Imam ‘Ali (as), to prove that people were urged/forced to curse ‘Ali in public, otherwise they would face a costly sentence. It is narrated on the authority of Abu Hazim that:

The Governor of Medina who was one of the members of the house of Marwan called Sahl Ibn Sa’d, and ordered him to curse ‘Ali. But Sahl refused to do so. The governor said: "If you don’t want to curse ‘Ali, just say God curse Abu Turab (the nickname of ‘Ali).”Sahl said: "‘Ali did not like any name for himself better than Abu Turab, and ‘Ali used to become very happy when somebody would call him Abu Turab.”

Sunni reference: Sahih Muslim, Chapter of Virtues of Companions, Section of Virtues of ‘Ali, Arabic version, v4, p1874, Tradition #38.

Here is the Arabic text of the above tradition given by Sahih Muslim:

استعمل على المدينة رجل من آل مروان ، قال فدعا سهل بن سعد فأمره أن يشتم عليا ، قال: فأبى سهل ، فقال له: أمّا إذ أبيت فقل: لعن الله أبا التراب. فقال سهل: ما كان لعليٍّ اسم أحب إليهِ من أبي التراب و إن كان ليفرح إذا دُعيَّ به.
Cursing Imam ‘Ali (as) was an order from the beginning of Muawiyah’s reign for 65 years. He was Umar Ibn Abdil Aziz (may Allah be easy with him) who canceled this order after more than half a century. Some historians even believe that the Umayyah descendants themselves killed (poisoned) Umar Ibn Abdil Aziz, because he changed their Sunnah, one of which was cursing ‘Ali.

(See the Sunni book entitled "History of the Saracens,”by Amir ‘Ali, Chapter X, pp 126-127).

One of the ugliest innovations that started during the reign of Muawiyah was that Muawiyah himself, and through his order to his Governors, they used to insult Imam ‘Ali (as) during the Sermons in the Mosques. This was even done on the pulpit of the mosque of the Prophet in Medina in front of the grave of the Prophet Muhammad (May Allah bless him and his Progeny), so that even the dearest Companions of the Prophet (S), and Imam ‘Ali (as), his family and his near relatives used to hear these swears with their ears.

Sunni references:

- History of al-Tabari, v4, p188
- History of Ibn Kathir, v3, p234; v4, p154
- al-Bidayah wa al-Nihayah, v8, p259; v9, p80

On insulting ‘Ali Ibn Abi Talib and cursing him during the Umayah period starting in Muawiyah’s reign, it is reported that:

"‘Ali Ibn Abi Talib (ra) was cursed on the pulpits (manabir) of the east and west...", during the time of Muawiyah.

Sunni reference: Mu’jam al-Buldan, al-Hamawi, v5, p38

In her letter, Umm Salama, the wife of the Prophet (S) wrote to Muawiyah: "...You are cursing Allah and His messenger on your minbar, and that is because you are cursing ‘Ali Ibn Abi Talib and whomever loves him, and I am a witness that Allah and His messengerloved him.”But no one paid any attention to what she said.

Sunni reference: al-Aqd al-Fareed, v2, p300

"That it was in the days of Bani Umayyah, more than seventy thousand minbar (in mosques) upon which they cursed ‘Ali Ibn Abi-Talib, in some of what Muawiyah made a Sunnah for them."

Sunni references:

- Rabeea’ al-Abrar, al-Zamakhshari
- al-Hafidh Jalaluddin al-Suyuti

al-Shaikh Ahmad al-Hafdhi al-Shafi’i, composed 9 verses of poetry expanding on what al-Suyuti has reported in the previous quote, I translated the first three verses:

And Shaikh al-Suyuti told:

That it was what they made into a "Sunnah". Seventy thousand mibar plus ten from the top of which they cursed Haydara (‘Ali). And next to this the greatest (sins) look small, but blame ought to be directed.

Let us now see the opinion of the son of Yazid about his father and his grandfather, who was the witness from within the royal family! ...When (Yazid) offered the kingdom (throne) to his son, Muawiyah the second, in order that the flag of caliphate continues to wave in the house of Abi Sufyan!!

After his death, Muawiyah the second, gathered the people on a well known day, he stood in them preaching, he said:

"My grandfather Muawiyah stripped the command from those who deserved it, and from one who is more justified of it, for his relation to the Messenger of Allah and his being first in Islam, and that is ‘Ali Ibn Abi Talib, he (Muawiyah) took over it by your help as you are fully aware."

"Then following it my father Yazid wore the command after him, and he did not deserve it. He quarreled with the son of the daughter of the Messenger of Allah, and by that he shortened his own life... He rode his whim and hope left him behind.”

Then he cried and continued: "Surely, the greatest problems of us is our knowledge of his bad behavior and his awful ending, and that he killed the progeny (Itrah) of the Messenger of Allah, and he permitted drinking alcohol, and he fought in the sanctuary of Mecca, and destroyed the Ka’ba.”

"And I am not the one who is dressing up for your command, nor the one to be responsible for your followers... You choose for yourselves..!!"

Sunni references:

- Khulafaa al-Rasool, by Khalid Muhammad Khalid, p531 (The above quote includes author’s punctuation.)

- Sawaiq al-Muhriqah, by Ibn Hajar al-Haythami, end of Ch. 11, pp 336

Muawiyah and Yazid murdering Imam al-Hasan Ibn ‘Ali (as) by poison, reported by many, here are a few Sunni references:

1. Tathkarat al-Khawass, Sibt ibn al-Jawzi al-Hanafi, pp 191-194.
2. Ibn Abd al-Barr, in his "Seera"
3. al-Suddi
4. al-Sha’bi
5. Abu Nu’aym

There are no authentic reports that Muawiyah (RA) advocated the cursing of Ali (RA), and I doubt the reports suggesting Muawiyah (RA) poisioning Hassan (RA) are authentic either.
Title: Re: Life after Shia questions
Post by: Hani on December 31, 2014, 02:39:04 PM

Quote
Even though Malik ibn Anas, Ahmad ibn Hanbal, and Imam Shafi'i hated Abu Hanifa?


So what? Kho'i and Khomayni wiped the floor with eachother, you can still make Taqleed of whoever. Abu Hanifah was criticized for his new method and approach to Fiqh, but if you look at the Hanafi Madhab at the end of the day it is almost identical to the others.



Quote

Although, as far as Madhahib go, the school of Abu Hanifa is probably the best as long as you stay away with the Salafi-infused modern interpretations (like from Dar'ul Ulum Deoband).  Abu Hanifa was the most tolerant of all four and his authentic views are quite different from modern "Hanifi" scholars.  He allowed beer, for example.


Go to a Hanafi forum and tell them to explain his Fiqhi stance for you, he didn't just "Allow beer". There's a lot more detail than that.



Quote

There are problems with tashayyu`, sure.  But there are more problems with Sunniism, as far as I can see.  I'd be happy to tell you in private all the issues I have with tashayyu`, but I don't want to post them publicly.


Whatever you like, I'd be happy to see what problems you have.



Quote
Yeah, we rawafid make up stories that slander our own families just so we can one up some anonymous screen-name online.


You'd be surprised how often that happened.



Quote
There are no authentic reports that Muawiyah (RA) advocated the cursing of Ali (RA),


They threw a lot of verbal abuse against one another and harshly criticized one another. This in English means "Cursing", but absolutely no Takfeer was made.


Quote

and I doubt the reports suggesting Muawiyah (RA) poisioning Hassan (RA) are authentic either.


al-Hasan (ra) didn't even die from poison, he had health issues.



Title: Re: Life after Shia questions
Post by: Optimus Prime on December 31, 2014, 06:46:51 PM
Brother Hani, are you sure?

I've come across scholars mention he passed away due to poisioning and refused to disclose who the culprit was before his death.

And, I get Ali (RA) and Muawiyah (RA) certainly exchanged a few verbals, but the whole idea of Muawiyah allowing cursing of Ali (RA) is all fabrications is it not? All the sources he provided are baseless.
Title: Re: Life after Shia questions
Post by: Hani on December 31, 2014, 07:39:37 PM


Quote
I've come across scholars mention he passed away due to poisioning and refused to disclose who the culprit was before his death.


Scholars believe that only because al-Hasan believed that he was poisoned, and he wasn't sure who the culprit was and that's the only reason he never disclosed the name. Based on how al-Hasan was describing his condition in several narrations, an expert medical source I read about in a book stated that what al-Hasan was suffering from was not "poisoning" rather he had a serious condition in his health. (Translating the man's words is very hard as it is all medical terminology.)


And so I have to go with what the medical expert says based on his diagnosis of al-Hasan's condition.


Quote
And, I get Ali (RA) and Muawiyah (RA) certainly exchanged a few verbals, but the whole idea of Muawiyah allowing cursing of Ali (RA) is all fabrications is it not? All the sources he provided are baseless.


As for him allowing or encouraging then evidence must be presented, if it's weak then that's that. Brother when people say "cursing" in English they mean verbal abuse, not the cursing which is in the sense of asking Allah to remove his mercy from him or what is known as "La`an".

Title: Re: Life after Shia questions
Post by: Ameen on December 31, 2014, 08:35:20 PM
Quote;

"There are no authentic reports that Muawiyah (RA) advocated the cursing of Ali (RA), and I doubt the reports suggesting Muawiyah (RA) poisioning Hassan (RA) are authentic either."

Turning something down and rejecting it point blank and that's it, is very easy and simple brother. Putting forward an explanation with your statement and discussing the matter with references is another thing. Ameer Muavia (ra) fought 72 battles, not one but 72 with the fourth rightly guided Khalif of the Muslims. He must have done all this out of love for Hazrath Ali (as). You don't go to battle as friends but as enemies. But going to war??? You go to war as bitter enemies and rivals. It looks like sense and logic has gone A.W.O.L.
Title: Re: Life after Shia questions
Post by: Optimus Prime on December 31, 2014, 09:20:28 PM
No one is putting it to one side for the sake of it, but as I said neither of those reports are authentic.

That's exactly what you haven't done. Put forward a list, but not stated or mentioned which and which are not authentic reports. I've read many articles and watched scholars refute the entire lot.

Booyakashah to Muawiyah (RA). He is my hero.
Title: Re: Life after Shia questions
Post by: Taha on December 31, 2014, 11:56:20 PM
So what? Kho'i and Khomayni wiped the floor with eachother, you can still make Taqleed of whoever. Abu Hanifah was criticized for his new method and approach to Fiqh, but if you look at the Hanafi Madhab at the end of the day it is almost identical to the others.
Allahumma la`an saname Fars.  O Allah, curse the two idols of Persia (Khomeini Khamenei). 
Now, do you have the courage to curse one of your four?

Go to a Hanafi forum and tell them to explain his Fiqhi stance for you, he didn't just "Allow beer". There's a lot more detail than that.
The details are, there is a hadeeth where the Holy Prophet (sawa) explains that Khamr is from grapes or dates.  So Abu Hanifa takes it to mean that only wine from grapes or dates is forbidden, alcohol made from other substances such as hops, grain, barley, etc. is allowed.  Ergo, beer is halal according to Abu Hanifa. 


But sure, what's a Hanafi forum I can ask provocative questions to and get actual answers in response?

You'd be surprised how often that happened.
Reminds me of all the Sunni stories that the rawafid spit in their food, or something like that.
Title: Re: Life after Shia questions
Post by: Ebn Hussein on January 01, 2015, 12:12:48 AM
So what? Kho'i and Khomayni wiped the floor with eachother, you can still make Taqleed of whoever. Abu Hanifah was criticized for his new method and approach to Fiqh, but if you look at the Hanafi Madhab at the end of the day it is almost identical to the others.
Allahumma la`an saname Fars.  O Allah, curse the two idols of Persia (Khomeini Khamenei). 
Now, do you have the courage to curse one of your four?

Go to a Hanafi forum and tell them to explain his Fiqhi stance for you, he didn't just "Allow beer". There's a lot more detail than that.
The details are, there is a hadeeth where the Holy Prophet (sawa) explains that Khamr is from grapes or dates.  So Abu Hanifa takes it to mean that only wine from grapes or dates is forbidden, alcohol made from other substances such as hops, grain, barley, etc. is allowed.  Ergo, beer is halal according to Abu Hanifa. 


But sure, what's a Hanafi forum I can ask provocative questions to and get actual answers in response?

You'd be surprised how often that happened.
Reminds me of all the Sunni stories that the rawafid spit in their food, or something like that.

Stories? You mean facts caught on tape:



I guess that's a unicorn wahhabi dressed in a filthy Rafidi robe, huh?
Title: Re: Life after Shia questions
Post by: Hani on January 01, 2015, 12:22:13 AM
Mr. Taha


Quote
Allahumma la`an saname Fars.  O Allah, curse the two idols of Persia (Khomeini Khamenei). 
Now, do you have the courage to curse one of your four?




I'm happy you're cursing Khomayni n all, but why do you want me to curse abu Hanifa? I have no issue with him and even if he made a mistake here or there I simply ask Allah to forgive him and raise the rank of all believers.


We Muslims aren't too fond of cursing as we heave mercy in our hearts.


Quote
The details are, there is a hadeeth where the Holy Prophet (sawa) explains that Khamr is from grapes or dates.  So Abu Hanifa takes it to mean that only wine from grapes or dates is forbidden, alcohol made from other substances such as hops, grain, barley, etc. is allowed.  Ergo, beer is halal according to Abu Hanifa. 


But sure, what's a Hanafi forum I can ask provocative questions to and get actual answers in response?


It's not about the forum, it's about who answers you on that forum. Try to find a reliable authority in Hanafi Fiqh and forward that question to him.



Title: Re: Life after Shia questions
Post by: Taha on January 01, 2015, 04:36:45 PM

I'm happy you're cursing Khomayni n all, but why do you want me to curse abu Hanifa? I have no issue with him and even if he made a mistake here or there I simply ask Allah to forgive him and raise the rank of all believers.
Imam Shafi'i, Malik ibn Anas, and Ahmad ibn Hanbal had a huge problem with him.


Quote
We Muslims aren't too fond of cursing as we heave mercy in our hearts.
So Muaeuyah (and all Umayyads except for Umar ibn Abdul Aziz) isn't /aren't Muslims since they cursed Imam Ali?  Glad you agree. Ebn Hussein seems fond of cursing.
Title: Re: Life after Shia questions
Post by: Hani on January 01, 2015, 05:37:06 PM
Imam Shafi'i, Malik ibn Anas, and Ahmad ibn Hanbal had a huge problem with him.


I follow Shafi`i's Fiqhi rulings but I'm not al-Shafi`i, he's not my prophet nor would I follow anything he does if I am not convinced it is correct.



So Muaeuyah (and all Umayyads except for Umar ibn Abdul Aziz) isn't /aren't Muslims since they cursed Imam Ali?  Glad you agree. Ebn Hussein seems fond of cursing.


Muslims at the time of Fitnah committed many mistakes that the Prophet (saw) warned us of, our duty today as intelligent human beings is to learn from their mistakes not repeat them.


`Ali himself regretted everything he did in those days as is authentically attributed to him: "O Hasan, your father wishes he died twenty years ago!"
Title: Re: Life after Shia questions
Post by: Optimus Prime on January 01, 2015, 05:40:42 PM
Imam Shafi'i, Malik ibn Anas, and Ahmad ibn Hanbal had a huge problem with him.


I follow Shafi`i's Fiqhi rulings but I'm not al-Shafi`i, he's not my prophet nor would I follow anything he does if I am not convinced it is correct.



So Muaeuyah (and all Umayyads except for Umar ibn Abdul Aziz) isn't /aren't Muslims since they cursed Imam Ali?  Glad you agree. Ebn Hussein seems fond of cursing.


Muslims at the time of Fitnah committed many mistakes that the Prophet (saw) warned us of, our duty today as intelligent human beings is to learn from their mistakes not repeat them.


`Ali himself regretted everything he did in those days as is authentically attributed to him: "O Hasan, your father wishes he died twenty years ago!"

Brother Hani, do you have a source for this narration or quote?
Title: Re: Life after Shia questions
Post by: Optimus Prime on January 01, 2015, 05:42:58 PM
Quote
The details are, there is a hadeeth where the Holy Prophet (sawa) explains that Khamr is from grapes or dates.  So Abu Hanifa takes it to mean that only wine from grapes or dates is forbidden, alcohol made from other substances such as hops, grain, barley, etc. is allowed.  Ergo, beer is halal according to Abu Hanifa. 


But sure, what's a Hanafi forum I can ask provocative questions to and get actual answers in response?


www.sunniforum.com

Taha, I've invited a scholar who's studied, teaches and practices the Hanafi madhab. He'll address any concerns or questions you have.
Title: Re: Life after Shia questions
Post by: Taha on January 02, 2015, 08:00:03 AM
I follow Shafi`i's Fiqhi rulings but I'm not al-Shafi`i, he's not my prophet nor would I follow anything he does if I am not convinced it is correct.
So why blindly follow the Sahabah and refuse to admit they made mistakes?  `Umar himself admitted that he introduced "excellent" bidaa into Islam, and all bidaa is in the hell fire (Sunni hadeeth).  I'm not saying `Umar is in hell (although I believe he is, that's a different discussion), but you must admit he made a mistake.  You also must admit that `Aisha made a mistake when she went to war with Imam Ali.  Same with Muawiyah.  To blindly say that all the Sahabah were 100% righteous 100% of the time is just as ridiculous as blindly following a "righteous" scholar.  This is one of the Sunni opinions that troubles me the most; blind adherence.  I will Private Message you something, and I ask you not to post it or reveal it to anyone else.  Please keep what I say to you in mind as I say the following: Just because someone is held in high regard does not mean they are 100% right, or that one must agree with them 100% of the time.  Several times, people have posted opinions of certain Shia scholars and say that this is what all rawafid must believe.  It is not the case.  Even today, Shia scholars are at odds with each other.  Same with Sunni scholars.  Quoting the classics helps understand history, but it does not always point to what all people in a group believe. 

Muslims at the time of Fitnah committed many mistakes that the Prophet (saw) warned us of, our duty today as intelligent human beings is to learn from their mistakes not repeat them.
I agree.  But some people made bigger mistakes than others.

`Ali himself regretted everything he did in those days as is authentically attributed to him: "O Hasan, your father wishes he died twenty years ago!"
Please source.
Title: Re: Life after Shia questions
Post by: Husayn on January 02, 2015, 11:55:38 AM
Ahlul Sunnah freely admit that the Sahabah made mistakes - they are recorded in ahadith and tareeqh.

They do not claim they were "100% righteous 100% of the time".

Please educate yourself, you hilarious child.
Title: Re: Life after Shia questions
Post by: Hani on January 02, 2015, 12:41:26 PM

Quote
So why blindly follow the Sahabah and refuse to admit they made mistakes?  `Umar himself admitted that he introduced "excellent" bidaa into Islam, and all bidaa is in the hell fire (Sunni hadeeth).  I'm not saying `Umar is in hell (although I believe he is, that's a different discussion), but you must admit he made a mistake.  You also must admit that `Aisha made a mistake when she went to war with Imam Ali.  Same with Muawiyah.  To blindly say that all the Sahabah were 100% righteous 100% of the time is just as ridiculous as blindly following a "righteous" scholar.  This is one of the Sunni opinions that troubles me the most; blind adherence.  I will Private Message you something, and I ask you not to post it or reveal it to anyone else.  Please keep what I say to you in mind as I say the following: Just because someone is held in high regard does not mean they are 100% right, or that one must agree with them 100% of the time.  Several times, people have posted opinions of certain Shia scholars and say that this is what all rawafid must believe.  It is not the case.  Even today, Shia scholars are at odds with each other.  Same with Sunni scholars.  Quoting the classics helps understand history, but it does not always point to what all people in a group believe. 


Aside from all that useless detail above, no Sunni believes the Sahabah were 100% correct on everything (including `Ali). What does this have to do with me cursing abu Hanifa?



Quote

I agree.  But some people made bigger mistakes than others.


Obviously.



Quote
Please source.


It's in several books such as al-Sunnah by `Abdullah and al-Sunnah by al-Khallal etc...



Title: Re: Life after Shia questions
Post by: Taha on January 02, 2015, 11:00:01 PM
It's in several books such as al-Sunnah by `Abdullah and al-Sunnah by al-Khallal etc...


Are they authentic?  And can you prove it if you had to?  (Not asking you to go through the authentication process, but just curious on how certain you are of it.)


Ahlul Sunnah freely admit that the Sahabah made mistakes - they are recorded in ahadith and tareeqh.They do not claim they were "100% righteous 100% of the time".Please educate yourself, you hilarious child.

So you admit that Umar innovated and that all innovations are in hell?
Title: Re: Life after Shia questions
Post by: Hani on January 02, 2015, 11:08:50 PM

Quote
Are they authentic?  And can you prove it if you had to?  (Not asking you to go through the authentication process, but just curious on how certain you are of it.)


Yes I can.



Quote
So you admit that Umar innovated and that all innovations are in hell?


This is a linguistic innovation not an innovation in religion, meaning `Umar never innovated anything he just organized the people behind one Imam instead of leaving them disorganized in groups.


The people would come to the mosques and each group would pray on their own, he simply united them as they used to do in Rasul-Allah's (saw) time, this is not an innovation in religion.

Title: Re: Life after Shia questions
Post by: Ameen on January 03, 2015, 03:14:05 AM
No one is putting it to one side for the sake of it, but as I said neither of those reports are authentic.

That's exactly what you haven't done. Put forward a list, but not stated or mentioned which and which are not authentic reports. I've read many articles and watched scholars refute the entire lot.

Booyakashah to Muawiyah (RA). He is my hero.

Well it's obvious they're going to refute the entire lot. It doesn't matter which party you belong to, what suits your belief, faith, thought, opinion and point of view you will automatically accept and what doesn't you will automatically reject.

As far as I am concerned, I go by reality and facts. Ameer Muavia (ra) as a companion and brother in law of the Prophet (pbuh) is one thing but being a rebel and outlaw is another. Going against the fourth rightly guided Khalif of the Muslims and using means of violence and threatening behaviour to have your demands met, is what the definition of a terrorist is and what terrorism is all about.

Who is right is right and who is wrong is wrong. It's all about double standards for some!
Title: Re: Life after Shia questions
Post by: Ameen on January 03, 2015, 03:24:21 AM
Ahlul Sunnah freely admit that the Sahabah made mistakes - they are recorded in ahadith and tareeqh.

They do not claim they were "100% righteous 100% of the time".

Please educate yourself, you hilarious child.

Education is very important. Both need to educate themselves and learn about the other. So what does rightly guided mean then??? Rightly guided Khalifs, Haq char Yaar??? Then you have the statement about the Sahaba,
"Kullohum Udool", what is this all about??? Then you have, "all the Sahaba are like the stars, it doesn't matter who you follow, you are guided"??? So if they weren't 100% right then, where did they go wrong and how???
Title: Re: Life after Shia questions
Post by: Hani on January 03, 2015, 01:05:20 PM
Ahlul Sunnah freely admit that the Sahabah made mistakes - they are recorded in ahadith and tareeqh.

They do not claim they were "100% righteous 100% of the time".

Please educate yourself, you hilarious child.

Education is very important. Both need to educate themselves and learn about the other. So what does rightly guided mean then??? Rightly guided Khalifs, Haq char Yaar??? Then you have the statement about the Sahaba,
"Kullohum Udool", what is this all about??? Then you have, "all the Sahaba are like the stars, it doesn't matter who you follow, you are guided" ??? So if they weren't 100% right then, where did they go wrong and how???


Khulafa' Rashideen Mahdiyeen is how Rasul-Allah (saw) referred to those who shall succeed him in leadership, he called them "rightly guided" because they ruled religiously and were faithful to his teachings.


Haq Char Yaar is some Pakistani saying I think, it means the four Caliphs were good friends and not enemies as Shia claim.


As for `Adalat al-Sahabah this is a deep topic that you can discuss with Farid or the scholars of Hadith because this mainly is related to their transmission of Hadith.


As for the Sahabah are like the stars, this is a fabricated narration according to the scholars of Hadith, it spread between laypeople just like any rumors spread between laypeople.
Title: Re: Life after Shia questions
Post by: Abu Zayd on January 03, 2015, 09:59:01 PM
Ahlul Sunnah freely admit that the Sahabah made mistakes - they are recorded in ahadith and tareeqh.

They do not claim they were "100% righteous 100% of the time".

Please educate yourself, you hilarious child.

Education is very important. Both need to educate themselves and learn about the other. So what does rightly guided mean then??? Rightly guided Khalifs, Haq char Yaar??? Then you have the statement about the Sahaba,
"Kullohum Udool", what is this all about??? Then you have, "all the Sahaba are like the stars, it doesn't matter who you follow, you are guided"??? So if they weren't 100% right then, where did they go wrong and how???

Actually, although it does seem to be the case that some Sunnis give the Sahaba (or certain individuals) a Demi-God type status, those who are educated enough give the Sahaba [ra] the place that they are due.  The following narrations do show that the Sahaba did err at times:

1.  Rabi'ah al-Aslami narrated: I used to serve the Messenger of Allah (SAWS) so he gave me a piece of land and he gave Abu Bakr a piece of land, then life and its pleasures came between us and we differed on a small part of land surrounding a palm tree, Abu Bakr may Allah be pleased with him said: "It is on my side of the land." and I said that it was on mine, so there was an argument between us and Abu Bakr told me a word that I hated to hear, then he regretted it and he told me: "O Rabi'ah, say to me what I said to you, as a Qasas." I said I wouldn't, Abu Bakr told me to do so otherwise he'd call the Prophet (SAWS), I insisted that I would not, so he refused that piece of land and he went to the Prophet (SAWS). I followed him and met some people from (the tribe of) Aslam along the way, they asked: "May Allah have mercy on Abu Bakr, why would he call on the Prophet (SAWS) because of you if he was the one who said what he said to you?" I replied to them: "Do you know who this is!? This is Abu Bakr al-Siddeeq, he is the second of the two (in the cave), he is the elder of the Muslims! So beware of letting him see you supporting me against him, then he would be angry and then the Prophet (SAWS) would come and be angry for his anger and then Allah would be angry for their anger and then Rabi'ah would perish!" They said: "What do you suggest we do?" I said: "Return." Then I continued to follow him alone until we reached the Prophet (SAWS), and he told him exactly what happened, so he (SAWS) raised his head and looked at me and said: "O Rabi'ah, what is between you and al-Siddeeq?" I said: "O Prophet of Allah, this and that happened, so he spoke a word I hated to hear, then told me to return the word as a Qasas and I refused." The Prophet (SAWS) then said: "Do not return the word, instead say: May Allah forgive you O Abu Bakr." So I said: "May Allah forgive you O Abu Bakr." Then Abu Bakr may Allah have mercy on him left with tears in his eyes.

2.  'Abdullah bin al-Zubair narrated: A caravan from Bani Tamim came to the Messenger of Allaah (SAWS) and Abu Bakr (ra) said to appoint as the Amir Qa’qaa’ bin Ma’bad and ‘Umar (ra) said to appoint as the Amir al-Aqra’ bin Haabis. Abu Bakr said ‘you always wanted to oppose me’ and ‘Umar said ‘I did not want to oppose you’ and they disputed until their voices raised. So Allah (swt) revealed: ‘O you who believe! Make not (a decision) in advance before Allaah and His Messenger, and fear Allaah. Verily, Allaah is All-Hearing, All-Knowing …’ until ‘And if they had had patience till you could come out to them, it would have been better for them. And Allaah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

Coming from a Shia background I know this is a widely held misconception, that Sunnis believe all Sahaba to be practically infallible, but Sahaba were human and made mistakes, but we should respect their status and their sacrifices for Allah (swt) and His Prophet (PBUH).
Title: Re: Life after Shia questions
Post by: Hani on January 03, 2015, 10:07:43 PM
Brother abu Zayd you should also write "ex-Shia" on your profile description : p
Title: Re: Life after Shia questions
Post by: Abu Zayd on January 03, 2015, 10:16:58 PM
Perhaps. Those who need to know now all know, and those who couldn't care less will continue to feel that way.
Title: Re: Life after Shia questions
Post by: Optimus Prime on January 03, 2015, 11:50:06 PM
Ahlul Sunnah freely admit that the Sahabah made mistakes - they are recorded in ahadith and tareeqh.

They do not claim they were "100% righteous 100% of the time".

Please educate yourself, you hilarious child.

Education is very important. Both need to educate themselves and learn about the other. So what does rightly guided mean then??? Rightly guided Khalifs, Haq char Yaar??? Then you have the statement about the Sahaba,
"Kullohum Udool", what is this all about??? Then you have, "all the Sahaba are like the stars, it doesn't matter who you follow, you are guided"??? So if they weren't 100% right then, where did they go wrong and how???

Actually, although it does seem to be the case that some Sunnis give the Sahaba (or certain individuals) a Demi-God type status, those who are educated enough give the Sahaba [ra] the place that they are due.  The following narrations do show that the Sahaba did err at times:

1.  Rabi'ah al-Aslami narrated: I used to serve the Messenger of Allah (SAWS) so he gave me a piece of land and he gave Abu Bakr a piece of land, then life and its pleasures came between us and we differed on a small part of land surrounding a palm tree, Abu Bakr may Allah be pleased with him said: "It is on my side of the land." and I said that it was on mine, so there was an argument between us and Abu Bakr told me a word that I hated to hear, then he regretted it and he told me: "O Rabi'ah, say to me what I said to you, as a Qasas." I said I wouldn't, Abu Bakr told me to do so otherwise he'd call the Prophet (SAWS), I insisted that I would not, so he refused that piece of land and he went to the Prophet (SAWS). I followed him and met some people from (the tribe of) Aslam along the way, they asked: "May Allah have mercy on Abu Bakr, why would he call on the Prophet (SAWS) because of you if he was the one who said what he said to you?" I replied to them: "Do you know who this is!? This is Abu Bakr al-Siddeeq, he is the second of the two (in the cave), he is the elder of the Muslims! So beware of letting him see you supporting me against him, then he would be angry and then the Prophet (SAWS) would come and be angry for his anger and then Allah would be angry for their anger and then Rabi'ah would perish!" They said: "What do you suggest we do?" I said: "Return." Then I continued to follow him alone until we reached the Prophet (SAWS), and he told him exactly what happened, so he (SAWS) raised his head and looked at me and said: "O Rabi'ah, what is between you and al-Siddeeq?" I said: "O Prophet of Allah, this and that happened, so he spoke a word I hated to hear, then told me to return the word as a Qasas and I refused." The Prophet (SAWS) then said: "Do not return the word, instead say: May Allah forgive you O Abu Bakr." So I said: "May Allah forgive you O Abu Bakr." Then Abu Bakr may Allah have mercy on him left with tears in his eyes.

2.  'Abdullah bin al-Zubair narrated: A caravan from Bani Tamim came to the Messenger of Allaah (SAWS) and Abu Bakr (ra) said to appoint as the Amir Qa’qaa’ bin Ma’bad and ‘Umar (ra) said to appoint as the Amir al-Aqra’ bin Haabis. Abu Bakr said ‘you always wanted to oppose me’ and ‘Umar said ‘I did not want to oppose you’ and they disputed until their voices raised. So Allah (swt) revealed: ‘O you who believe! Make not (a decision) in advance before Allaah and His Messenger, and fear Allaah. Verily, Allaah is All-Hearing, All-Knowing …’ until ‘And if they had had patience till you could come out to them, it would have been better for them. And Allaah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

Coming from a Shia background I know this is a widely held misconception, that Sunnis believe all Sahaba to be practically infallible, but Sahaba were human and made mistakes, but we should respect their status and their sacrifices for Allah (swt) and His Prophet (PBUH).

Brother, can you provide the sources for these narrations, please?
Title: Re: Life after Shia questions
Post by: Abu Zayd on January 04, 2015, 10:50:57 AM
Brother, can you provide the sources for these narrations, please?

If I recorded them correctly then the first is al-Albani's al-Silsilah al-Sahiha 7/407 and the second is Sahih al-Bukhari #4367.
Title: Re: Life after Shia questions
Post by: Optimus Prime on January 04, 2015, 03:50:21 PM
Brother, can you provide the sources for these narrations, please?

If I recorded them correctly then the first is al-Albani's al-Silsilah al-Sahiha 7/407 and the second is Sahih al-Bukhari #4367.

Jazak'Allah, the first Hadith, can you quote the original source? Isn't al-Albani's al-Silsilah a compilation of Hadiths?
Title: Re: Life after Shia questions
Post by: labelingtheory on February 21, 2015, 06:25:26 AM

Your words,

"Why I left Shiasm (by Husayn. A Rafidi  member from the old forum whom I debated myself for literally TEN years till he became Muslim!!!): http://forum.twelvershia.net/general-sunni-vs-shia/why-i-left-shiaism/"

So tell me how did this Rafidi member, from the old forum whom you debated for ten years yourself, become a Muslim??? How do you become a Muslim from a Rafidi??? What did he have to say or do??? Or what did you make him say or do??? How do you become a Muslim??? By saying Shahadathain, yes??? The Rafidi (Shia) already believes in and says the Shahadathain, so what does he further say or do to become a Muslim??? Well come on hot shot!
Just because a person says the shahada doesn't make them a Muslim. The Qadianis say shahada, love Hazrat Muhammad (saw), pray, ect, but are unanimously declared as kaafir by Sunnis and shias. Same thing with Quranists, agha khanis, and definetly some twelvers.

Actually all twelvers are muslim at least according to the majority of scholars in the world. Ever heard of the amman pact?
Title: Re: Life after Shia questions
Post by: Hani on February 21, 2015, 11:50:24 AM

Actually all twelvers are muslim at least according to the majority of scholars in the world. Ever heard of the amman pact?

I had a thread just about that, it seems even the Nawasib who hate `Ali and his Ahlul-Bayt are also our Muslim brothers according to this `Amman pact:
http://forum.twelvershia.net/general-sunni-vs-shia/the-amman-message/msg3222/#msg3222
Title: Re: Life after Shia questions
Post by: Ibn Al Qayyim on June 25, 2016, 02:37:35 AM
سلام علیک
For all the fellow ex-shias, I have been wondering.
How did your family/friends/community take it?
Are you the only ex-shia you know of?
Do you eat from shias (since they believe in kufr)?
Are you a specific madhab?


Currently I'm planning to tell my family I'm not Shia after I'm married.  :P
Thanks for reading, Allah Hafiz

Are you also going to take the opinion of Ex Sunnis??? How they must feel??? I'm sure their feelings must also be brought in to consideration. Since they believe in Kufar??? Wow! A big statement but I'm sure it can't be backed by anything. So tell me what made you become an Ex Shia??? Congratulations on becoming a Sunni. Would you mind telling me which Sunni have you become and why??? They have four schools of thought so which one have you taken on and why??? I don't think I'm going to here from you now. If I do I'm sure it wont be positive but lets see.


broo


cann u pls ffs stop using too mny question marks? please?

just pls dont use question marks unless ur asking a question and if u do no need to use more thn one question mark...