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Sunni Shia Discussion Forum => General Sunni-Shia => Topic started by: Ibn Yahya on November 01, 2015, 06:05:53 AM

Title: Logic Question for the Shi'ah
Post by: Ibn Yahya on November 01, 2015, 06:05:53 AM
I'd like to ask the Shi'ah a question using Qiyas since they like to use it so much.

If Abu Bakr, 'Umar and 'Uthman and the Sahabah had led people astray and corrupted Islam why did 'Ali in his 5 years as Caliph never go out or send anyone to call any cities to the "true" Islam of the Imamiyyah.

If you cannot provide sufficient proof of him giving Da'wah to Ahl as-Sunnah then he must not have seen fault with their beliefs thereby confirming that Ahl as-Sunnah wa l-Jama'ah are on the Haqq according to 'Ali.

But let's say for the sake of argument he did. According to al-Mufid in his al-Irshad: 'Ali converted the city of Hamdan to Islam in just 1 day.

'Ali reigned for 5 years. 2 of them were in peace. Let's subtract 2 Months for things like travelling. That leaves us with 670 days. So 'Ali could've converted 670 cities and towns. That's more towns and cities than 'Umar conquered I think. So why is it we find the Imamiyyah were only ever present in Iraq and Iran and they only became majority in Iran thanks to the Safavids in the 1500's. This is Iraq. Specifically south Iraq, the home of the Khawarij and Kufans. Are these your ancestors? Or did 'Ali deliberately leave people misguided n'audhu billah something prohibited by the Qur'an? How is that possible when 'Ali was to fight for the interpret of the Qur'an?
Title: Re: Logic Question for the Shi'ah
Post by: Farid on November 01, 2015, 05:58:55 PM
Good questions akhi.

Other sub-questions include: Why didn't Ali reveal the true Qur'an? Why didn't he make Mut'ah permissible? Why didn't he curse Abu Bakr and Omar?

...and the list goes on.
Title: Re: Logic Question for the Shi'ah
Post by: Ibn Yahya on November 02, 2015, 12:12:46 AM
Good questions akhi.

Other sub-questions include: Why didn't Ali reveal the true Qur'an? Why didn't he make Mut'ah permissible? Why didn't he curse Abu Bakr and Omar?

...and the list goes on.

I'm thinking of posting it on Shiachat. But I want to refine it more. Do you have any criticisms of the post?
Title: Re: Logic Question for the Shi'ah
Post by: Farid on November 02, 2015, 12:15:04 AM
Not at the moment. Just remember to pick your battles.
Title: Re: Logic Question for the Shi'ah
Post by: Ibn Yahya on November 02, 2015, 01:26:07 AM
Not at the moment. Just remember to pick your battles.

Ok
Title: Re: Logic Question for the Shi'ah
Post by: Farid on November 02, 2015, 04:15:07 PM
Looks like you got a bunch of non-answers.

=]
Title: Re: Logic Question for the Shi'ah
Post by: Ibn Yahya on November 02, 2015, 10:27:35 PM
Looks like you got a bunch of non-answers.

=]

some of the answers don't even make sense
Title: Re: Logic Question for the Shi'ah
Post by: Khaled on November 02, 2015, 10:49:57 PM
Looks like you got a bunch of non-answers.

=]

some of the answers don't even make sense

LOL, did "Darth Vader" the same dude that admitted to being radicalized, actually trying to imply that we have a hard time converting people to "Sunnism?"  There is no religious group in the world more religious than Muslims, and top it off, when controlling for Sunni vs Shia, the Sunnis are even more religious.

Honestly, hatred and sectarianism will make you say anything
Title: Re: Logic Question for the Shi'ah
Post by: Furkan on November 02, 2015, 11:26:32 PM
Remember, sunnis often pray sunnah too, while shias hardly do.  Enough ex shias here to confirm this
Title: Re: Logic Question for the Shi'ah
Post by: Ibn Yahya on November 03, 2015, 02:22:23 AM
Looks like you got a bunch of non-answers.

=]

some of the answers don't even make sense

LOL, did "Darth Vader" the same dude that admitted to being radicalized, actually trying to imply that we have a hard time converting people to "Sunnism?"  There is no religious group in the world more religious than Muslims, and top it off, when controlling for Sunni vs Shia, the Sunnis are even more religious.

Honestly, hatred and sectarianism will make you say anything

Anyone who names them self after a Star Wars character who abandoned his kids and killed his wife isn't really likely to post anything intelligent. I feel shouldn't even have responded to him, but I probably silenced when I reminded him the first Jihadi terror groups were Shi'is. 
Title: Re: Logic Question for the Shi'ah
Post by: Ibn Yahya on November 03, 2015, 02:23:26 AM
Remember, sunnis often pray sunnah too, while shias hardly do.  Enough ex shias here to confirm this
They have a Hadith somewhere that says it's alright to abandon prayer so long as the majority of people pray lol
Title: Re: Logic Question for the Shi'ah
Post by: Bolani Muslim on November 03, 2015, 02:59:08 AM
Wasn't 'StrugglingfortheLight' an apostate for a solid 2 years? According to Shiaism, even if a person repents, they're are to be killed for apostatizing even AFTER repenting (blood thirsty). Someone should ask him how he feels following a religion that mandated his killing :p
Title: Re: Logic Question for the Shi'ah
Post by: Ijtaba on November 05, 2015, 09:44:03 PM
Salaam.

My reply to your question is that when Imam Ali (a.s) got caliphate at that time Muslim Ummah was going through Great Fitna as Muslims Caliph Uthman (r.a) had been murdered. Muslim Ummah was in unstable state which needed stability. That is why Imam Ali (a.s) main focus was on Stability of Muslim Ummah.

We Shias believe that Imam Ali (a.s) throughout his life always talked about his right of being First Caliph and true Imam but never enforced on anyone to accept it. You may disagree with me but we believe our Imams (a.s) always said about themselves being true Imam of their time.
Title: Re: Logic Question for the Shi'ah
Post by: Hani on November 05, 2015, 09:59:09 PM
@Ijtaba,

So because the nation was going through a political Fitnah, he couldn't give them simple religious verdicts about some aspects of Wudu', Salat, Adhan, Khums? Because this according to you was very dangerous in time of Fitnah?

Yet he had enough time and energy to march with a giant army and fight Talhah and Zubayr, then march and fight Mu`awiyah and `Amr, then march and fight the Khawarij... This was easy, but informing people they should wipe their feet instead of washing them was hard, informing people about the validity of Mut`ah was hard so he had to do Taqiyyah.

That's your first contradiction. Review this historically and with an open critical mind and you'll find that the Shia scholars only offered their followers bad excuses as to why `Ali may Allah be pleased with him did this or that. (review related article here (http://forum.twelvershia.net/general-sunni-vs-shia/a-religion-of-excuses-and-reactions/))

Your second contradiction, is that you claimed that `Ali did not preach the true Imami Islam nor did he mention his divine right because it was a time of Fitnah and his focus was on stability. Then in your second paragraph you mention that he was always 24/7 talking about his divine right and how he was the true Imam as if that wouldn't cause Fitnah and bloodshed!?

Let me ask you this, since you say the man was very concerned about stability and preserving the egg of Islam. Then you say that he was always mentioning how he was divinely appointed and how his right was taken away from him and how he was oppressed and how the people abandoned the Prophet's (saw) will, I ask: Doesn't this behavior directly lead to Fitnah and instability? If I cared about stability and peace more than Allah's will I would keep silent and not stir trouble from under the table as you just described `Ali.

In the end `Ali had to figure out his priorities, if peace and stability and unity were his goals then he should not have mentioned anything about his divine right at any point. If Allah's religion and people's guidance were his goals, then he should have announced it at all times and whoever wished to disbelieve could disbelieve and perish.

Then again, ponder over this. Did the Prophet (saw) disrupt the peace and stability of the Arabs when he announced his faith and fought for it? Did he break the unity of Quraysh when he spread Islam? What were his priorities?
Title: Re: Logic Question for the Shi'ah
Post by: Ijtaba on November 06, 2015, 12:54:53 AM
Hani.. Thanks for the reply. I will read the article which you gave.

Before answering your questions I want to let you know about myself. I am no scholar. I just read Islamic Books and Articles available on Internet. So my knowledge about Quranic Studies, Hadith Studies and Islamic History is limited and insignificant. I am not interested in any kind of debate but I am more interested in learning. So views presented by me may not always be right as I myself am learning and am willing to change my views when I see flaws in them or when I find other person's argument irrefutable.

Now coming to your questions. You asked about Imam Ali (a.s) giving Religious Verdicts during Fitnah. Yes, Imam Ali (a.s) did give Religious Verdicts. He used to say in Masjid of Kufa to people, "Ask me Ask me before you lose me."

About wars of Jamal and Siffen, Imam Ali (a.s) never wanted them and always tried to avoid them as he (a.s) said to his (a.s) opponents that he also wanted murderers of Hadhrat Uthman (r.a) to be punished but now was not the right time as Muslim Ummah was unstable. First he (a.s) wanted to stabilize the situation and after that deal with the murderers. About War with Khawarij it was important as they were damaging Islam from the inside.

About Imam Ali (a.s) talking about his right to Caliphate there is some indication of this in the books of Ahlul Sunnah as well. When Hadhrat Abu Bakr (r.a) inquired of Imam Ali (a.s) as where he was when he had yet to pledge allegiance. Then Imam Ali (a.s) says to him that at least he should had been consulted during the nomination of Caliph or in other place he said that he thought he also had some right in matters of Caliphate. I don't know much about Imam Ali (a.s) mentioning his (a.s) rights in Sunni books but in our books we do have such narrations.

Lastly as you said about peace and stability of Muslim Ummah. Imam Ali (a.s) had two choices either to fight for his rights or keep silent and keep Muslim Ummah safe from divisions as Nabi Harun (a.s) did during the event of golden calf to avoid division in Bani Israel. Imam Ali (a.s) kept silent. He (a.s) never forced his leadership on anyone even when people came running towards him (a.s) to make him (a.s) their Caliph. He (a.s) accepted Caliphate on the condition that he (a.s) would rule according to Quran and Sunnah and would not follow desires of people.

 
Title: Re: Logic Question for the Shi'ah
Post by: Hani on November 06, 2015, 02:40:47 AM

Quote
Before answering your questions I want to let you know about myself. I am no scholar. I just read Islamic Books and Articles available on Internet. So my knowledge about Quranic Studies, Hadith Studies and Islamic History is limited and insignificant. I am not interested in any kind of debate but I am more interested in learning. So views presented by me may not always be right as I myself am learning and am willing to change my views when I see flaws in them or when I find other person's argument irrefutable.


Wal-`Aleykum al-Salam, welcome to the forum where people constantly learn and change their views based on evidence and strong argument. (I can even provide my skype address if you like to discuss further)





Quote

Now coming to your questions. You asked about Imam Ali (a.s) giving Religious Verdicts during Fitnah. Yes, Imam Ali (a.s) did give Religious Verdicts. He used to say in Masjid of Kufa to people, "Ask me Ask me before you lose me."


Great, we both agree he was giving religious verdicts at the time and this is the opinion of all mainstream Muslims. `Ali ibn abi Talib was one of the prominent Sahabah, he was the head of Aal-ul-Nabi (as), he was one of the four guided Khulafa' and from the top ten narrators of prophetic-traditions.


The reason the brother was asking originally, was because it is common knowledge historical that `Ali's followers did not view him as an infallible divinely appointed leader. Even al-Murtada the head of the Ithna-`Ashariyyah had to admit this as all texts point in this direction.


The point of the thread was, why didn't `Ali inform the Muslim masses of the special Ithna-`Ashari version of Islam instead of the mainstream version adopted by the Sahabah.


To which the usual Shia excuse would be: "He did so out of Taqiyyah as his soldiers all loved Abu Bakr and `Umar and so he could not oppose them nor criticize them."


I'll give you an example of `Ali's Taqiyyah according to Twelvers from their own books.



Washing the feet in Wudu', Tahdheeb al-Ahkaam by al-Tusi, vol.1 pg.93:


[Zayd bin `Ali from Imam `Ali (as): I sat down to perform Wudhu(ablution)  and the Prophet (SAWS) had come when I began so he said to me: “Rinse your mouth, sniff water and use Siwak” So I washed my face three times so he (SAWS) said: “Wash it only twice.” then I washed my arm and wiped my head twice, so he (SAWS) told me: “Wipe it only once” and I washed my feet so he (SAWS) told me: “O `Ali wash between the fingers so that the fire may not reach them.”]



Al-Tusi writes in his commentary:


[This narration agrees with the beliefs of al-‘Aamah(Ahlul-Sunnah) so it is Taqiyya.]


In fact, `Ali's entire life according to Shia leader al-Mufid can be summarized as follows in al-Irshad:



"The Imamah of Ameer al-Mumineen (as) after the Prophet SAWS was thirty years, from it he spent twenty four years and a few months while unable to practice his Imamah, using Taqqiyah and Mudarat."


source: al-Irshad by al-Mufid, vol 1 pg 9.



Quote
About wars of Jamal and Siffen, Imam Ali (a.s) never wanted them and always tried to avoid them as he (a.s) said to his (a.s) opponents that he also wanted murderers of Hadhrat Uthman (r.a) to be punished but now was not the right time as Muslim Ummah was unstable. First he (a.s) wanted to stabilize the situation and after that deal with the murderers. About War with Khawarij it was important as they were damaging Islam from the inside.


This is the correct version of history based on reliable books. Shia would say `Ali had absolutely no intention of punishing `Uthman's killers.



Quote

About Imam Ali (a.s) talking about his right to Caliphate there is some indication of this in the books of Ahlul Sunnah as well. When Hadhrat Abu Bakr (r.a) inquired of Imam Ali (a.s) as where he was when he had yet to pledge allegiance. Then Imam Ali (a.s) says to him that at least he should had been consulted during the nomination of Caliph or in other place he said that he thought he also had some right in matters of Caliphate. I don't know much about Imam Ali (a.s) mentioning his (a.s) rights in Sunni books but in our books we do have such narrations.


Everything `Ali and his companions did and said historically shows he was not divinely appointed. I have a short research on this where I go through all major history books one by one and this is the result so far:
http://forum.twelvershia.net/imamah-ghaybah/imamah-of-ali-a-historical-reading/


(Which reminds me to look into al-Akhbar al-Muwafaqiyat by al-Zubayr bin Bakkar)


As for what you're referring to, it could be one of two authentic reports and I will go through both with you now and show you they have nothing to do with divine appointment:


1-
 ما غضبنا إلا أنا أُخرنا عن المشورة ،و أنا نرى أن أبا بكر أحق الناس بها


The narration about when `Ali and al-Zubayr were asked why they were late in pledging allegiance to Abu Bakr, they said in response: "We were only angry because we were not included in the consultation, we view Abu Bakr as being most deserving of it."


Notice: A- Their anger was not because the Prophet's (saw) will was abandoned, their anger was because they were not consulted in the matter of leadership. B- They view Abu Bakr as being most worthy of it from among the people.


2-
إنا قد عرفنا يا ‏أبا بكر ‏فضيلتك، وما أعطاك الله، ولم ‏ننفس ‏عليك خيراً ساقه الله إليك، ولكنك ‏استبددت ‏علينا بالأمر، وكنا نحن نرى لنا حقاً لقرابتنا من رسول الله ‏صلى الله عليه وسلم


The long narration of Fadak and `Ali's meeting with Abu Bakr after Fatimah's passing, `Ali tells Abu Bakr: "O Aba Bakr, we know your virtue and know what Allah had bestowed upon you, and we are not jealous of the goodness that Allah has given you. However, you have left us out when it comes to this affair and we used to see that we had a right to it due to our closeness from the Messenger of Allah (saw)."


Notice: A- `Ali praises Abu Bakr's virtue and acknowledges that Allah has bestowed upon him goodness (leadership). B- `Ali and the family of the Prophet (saw) felt oppressed as they were left out of the equation since they were not consulted in Saqifah. C- They saw they had a right to it (not just `Ali but also al-`Abbas and al-Zubayr), the same way Abu Bakr, `Umar, Mu`adh and anybody else saw they had a right to it. D- `Ali did not mention being divinely appointed, he said that the relatives of the Prophet (saw) have a right due to closeness and blood-relation (which is not an issue).


Now please dear brother, tell me where there is a sign in this report that the man was chosen as divine successor?
Title: Re: Logic Question for the Shi'ah
Post by: Farid on November 06, 2015, 09:09:38 AM
Welcome to the boards brother Ijtaba. Inshallah you find your stay here beneficial.
Title: Re: Logic Question for the Shi'ah
Post by: Abubakar on November 06, 2015, 11:03:17 AM
Great one from brother Hani.
Hope our brother (Ijtabah) will reason with us together.
Title: Re: Logic Question for the Shi'ah
Post by: Ibn Yahya on November 07, 2015, 03:16:14 AM
Salaam.

My reply to your question is that when Imam Ali (a.s) got caliphate at that time Muslim Ummah was going through Great Fitna as Muslims Caliph Uthman (r.a) had been murdered. Muslim Ummah was in unstable state which needed stability. That is why Imam Ali (a.s) main focus was on Stability of Muslim Ummah.

We Shias believe that Imam Ali (a.s) throughout his life always talked about his right of being First Caliph and true Imam but never enforced on anyone to accept it. You may disagree with me but we believe our Imams (a.s) always said about themselves being true Imam of their time.

You seem to be looking at things in extremes, something that nearly all your brothers at shiachat did. I pointed that 'Ali had a good few years in peace. So instability was not an issue. 'Ali could convert an entire city in a day so if he was saying it in Khutbahs all the time why aren't we all Shi'i.

No one is talking about forced conversion, this was never implied, it's always odd how Shias always jump to the extreme of something. Nothing's black and white and there's two sides to every story. That's important to know about history.
Title: Re: Logic Question for the Shi'ah
Post by: Ibn Yahya on November 07, 2015, 03:19:14 AM
Walaykum as-Salaam wa Rahmat Allah. It's good to see a Shi'i on this forum
Title: Re: Logic Question for the Shi'ah
Post by: zaid_ibn_ali on November 07, 2015, 04:29:47 PM
logic & shi'ism...

1) Imamate is the fundamental shia belief yet it is nowhere mentioned in the Quran

2) The leader of the muslims is divinely appointed by God, yet for over a thousand years the shia have had to appoint leaders the ways Sunni's did since the Prophet SAW left.

3) Shia claim to love & stick to ahle bayt & be their followers, yet according to them only 14 people were ahle bayt, the rest are rejected & some even cursed.
Title: Re: Logic Question for the Shi'ah
Post by: Ijtaba on November 07, 2015, 11:47:32 PM
Thanks Brother Farid for your warm welcome and In shaa ALLAH my stay over here will increase my knowledge and improve my understanding about Ahlul Sunnah.

Thanks Ibn Yahya and Abu Baker for your compliments.

I will inshaa ALLAH read your articles and if some questions come to my mind then I will be asking about them in this forum. Hope you guys would answer them so that I may get good understanding and my misconceptions if any would be cleared.
Title: Re: Logic Question for the Shi'ah
Post by: Furkan on November 08, 2015, 12:25:03 AM
Welcome, brother Ijtaba.

Insha'Allah the brothers here can be at your service ^^
Title: Re: Logic Question for the Shi'ah
Post by: Hani on November 08, 2015, 08:53:44 AM
May Allah grant you what you seek O seeker of truth.
Title: Re: Logic Question for the Shi'ah
Post by: Ijtaba on November 08, 2015, 06:00:00 PM
Ameen Ya RABBIL ALAMEEN. Thank you Brother Hani for your Du'a.