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Most reasonable & unreasonable Shia claim

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GreatChineseFall

Most reasonable & unreasonable Shia claim
« on: February 28, 2016, 01:57:29 PM »
What do you guys think is the most reasonable Shia claim?

What is the most unreasonable?

Ibn Yahya

Re: Most reasonable & unreasonable Shia claim
« Reply #1 on: February 28, 2016, 01:59:05 PM »
That all evil in the world is because of Abu Bake and 'Umar

Rationalist

Re: Most reasonable & unreasonable Shia claim
« Reply #2 on: February 28, 2016, 06:59:36 PM »
What do you guys think is the most reasonable Shia claim?
That the Ahlul Bayt should have been given the Caliphate before anyone else.
Quote
What is the most unreasonable?
There are many, but the belief that Umar killed Fatima.

Arabismo

Re: Most reasonable & unreasonable Shia claim
« Reply #3 on: February 28, 2016, 09:54:46 PM »
Quote
That the Ahlul Bayt should have been given the Caliphate before anyone else.
How is that reasonable?
An ant from the valley of the ants possesses more intellect than a Rafidhi - Fakhr Al-Din Razi

Hani

Re: Most reasonable & unreasonable Shia claim
« Reply #4 on: February 28, 2016, 11:28:12 PM »
I don't agree they should be given precedence just because they're his family (as), not in the matter of leadership.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Farid

Re: Most reasonable & unreasonable Shia claim
« Reply #5 on: February 29, 2016, 12:21:14 AM »
Most reasonable: The correct way of ablution is by wiping the feet.

(Refuted here: http://twelvershia.net/2015/10/18/washing-of-the-feet-in-wudu-answering-shii-contentions-part-2/)

Most unreasonable claim: Taqiyyah. If the Imam that is appointed by Allah leads to so much confusion, then the evidence has not been established upon the creation.

Rationalist

Re: Most reasonable & unreasonable Shia claim
« Reply #6 on: February 29, 2016, 05:32:14 AM »
Quote
That the Ahlul Bayt should have been given the Caliphate before anyone else.
How is that reasonable?
I see Ali to be more qualified to lead the Ummah and more knowledgeable than Abi Bakr. Again even this view I don't think he was divinely appointed to rule.

Rationalist

Re: Most reasonable & unreasonable Shia claim
« Reply #7 on: February 29, 2016, 05:34:41 AM »
I don't agree they should be given precedence just because they're his family (as), not in the matter of leadership.
Are you its just only a family link with Ali bin Abi Talib? His merits and knowledge is great too.

MuslimAnswers

Re: Most reasonable & unreasonable Shia claim
« Reply #8 on: February 29, 2016, 07:35:00 AM »
^

Most unreasonable: The Muslims as a community could not deliver Islam to the next generations, and coerced all to conform to a false teaching, even the Imams for the most part [sort of like Samaritan claim against Judaism, for those of you who are into inter-religious discussions.] To be honest after all, there is no reasonable claim left, since the parts of Islam that are Talaqqi are then totally rejected, and the main 'Aqli claims for the need of an Imam are rendered null.

Abu Zayd

Re: Most reasonable & unreasonable Shia claim
« Reply #9 on: February 29, 2016, 11:14:28 AM »
I found one of my old books that my family had given to me.  It listed all the Prophets and how they mourned the death of Hussain (as).  The evidence was various ayats taken out of context to refer to his death. Found that to be fairly unreasonable.

Hadrami

Re: Most reasonable & unreasonable Shia claim
« Reply #10 on: February 29, 2016, 12:21:48 PM »
Most reasonable: we have to have a leader to guide us
Most unreasonable: that leader we have to have, doesn't have to guide us

scusemyenglish

Re: Most reasonable & unreasonable Shia claim
« Reply #11 on: March 02, 2016, 03:55:05 PM »
What do you guys think is the most reasonable Shia claim?

What is the most unreasonable?

Most Reasonalbe: There is no hadith from Jaffar asadik in sahih Bukhari.
 
Most unreasonable: to claim that Hitler said to his army during stalingrad battle  " You must follow Hussain's example  when he fough Yazid in battle of Kerbala!"
« Last Edit: March 02, 2016, 04:06:46 PM by scusemyenglish »
Abou Hourayra narrated that the messenger saws said:

"“There will come to the people years
of treachery (...) the Ruwaibidhah will decide matters.”
It was said

 'Who are the Ruwaibidhah?'

The Prophet replied:

 “Vile and
ignorant men who will speak in the affairs of the people.”

MuslimK

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Re: Most reasonable & unreasonable Shia claim
« Reply #12 on: March 02, 2016, 05:31:34 PM »

That the Ahlul Bayt should have been given the Caliphate before anyone else.

Most unreasonable claim. Lets suppose that Ali was the best and he deserved caliphate more than anybody else. However, today, talking about this is the most unreasonable thing. You are talking as if Abubakr is living and so is Ali and right now Abubakr is currently the leader.
در خلافت میل نیست ای بی‌خبر
میل کی آید ز بوبکر و عمر
میل اگر بودی در آن دو مقتدا
هر دو کردندی پسر را پیشوا

عطار نِیشابوری

www.Nahjul-Balagha.net | www.TwelverShia.net | www.ghadirkhumm.com

al-Habib

Re: Most reasonable & unreasonable Shia claim
« Reply #13 on: March 02, 2016, 06:12:14 PM »
Most reasonable:  "Why didn't the prophet leave any successors when Abu Bakr and Umar did?"

This is the most specious of their arguments. 

Most unreasonable:  That all the companions renegaded after the death of Muhammad (pbuh) except for 3-7 of them.

This goes against history and logic.

Re: Most reasonable & unreasonable Shia claim
« Reply #14 on: March 02, 2016, 09:54:07 PM »
Most reasonable:
That we can decide to combine prayers(Zuhr and Asr and Magrib &Ishai) without travelling, rain or fear :)

Most Unreasonable:
Any other Shia claim.

Farid

Re: Most reasonable & unreasonable Shia claim
« Reply #15 on: March 08, 2016, 06:40:02 PM »
All off-topic posts and side tracking will be deleted guys.

Optimus Prime

Re: Most reasonable & unreasonable Shia claim
« Reply #16 on: March 08, 2016, 09:44:56 PM »
Most reasonable claim:

That the Rawafidh that even their own people, and scholars are admitting that their final/last Imam is nothng more than a figment of their imagination.

Most unreasonable claim:

That they suggest that Ali (RA) should've been the first Calipah whether that's because of divine appointment or even by virtue. That's a laugh and a half.

GreatChineseFall

Re: Most reasonable & unreasonable Shia claim
« Reply #17 on: March 11, 2016, 01:53:35 AM »
Thanks for the input.

Some claims can be very unreasonable but some of these are genuinely believed. Which claims (not necessarily the most unreasonable) do you think they themselves dont believe.

Rationalist

Re: Most reasonable & unreasonable Shia claim
« Reply #18 on: April 13, 2016, 05:35:06 AM »
A Zaidi  unfriended me on facebook because I proved that the Zaidia and 12ers adopted  principals of Kalam from the Mutazilla, and that Imam Zayd and Imam Jafar never said anything about the pillars of Usool Ad Deen. When its comes to Abi Bakr and Umar they want to discuss details about their wrong, but when it comes to their own Imams, they are just too sensitive.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2016, 05:44:16 AM by Rationalist »

Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: Most reasonable & unreasonable Shia claim
« Reply #19 on: April 13, 2016, 06:31:27 AM »
Reasonable: They don't have any authentic book.

Unreasonable: There is a hidden Imam from more than 1200 years, who is guiding them.

 

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