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Mutah - Umar banned it?

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labelingtheory

Mutah - Umar banned it?
« on: February 21, 2015, 09:37:17 AM »
I am a shia but I don't like labels in Islam because it tends to push people away from each other. I had a question on Mutah because people often have different opinions about it.

From the Shia perspective, the prophet (pbuh) allowed it.

From the Sunni perspective and through history from my readings it is also taught that the prophet allowed it but it was the second caliph that stopped the practice.

Sources listed below...

Sahih Muslim, Book 007, Number 2801 & 2814
Musnad Ahmed, Volume 1 page 52 Hadith 369
Mustakhraj Abi Auwanah, Volume 7 page 159 Hadith 2713
Mustakhraj Abi Auwanah, Volume 4 page 255 Hadith 2697
Tarikh Madina, Volume 2 page 719
Sunnan Saeed bin Mansur, Volume 1 pages 218-219
Al-Mabsut by Sarkhasi, Volume 4 page 27
Musnad al-Shamyeen, Volume 3 page 320 Tradition 2399
Kanz al Ummal, Volume 8 page 93 Hadith 45715
al-Muhazraat, Volume 2 page 214 part 12
Tafseer al-Kabeer, Vol 4 pages 42 & 43
Zaad al Maad, Volume 2 page 205
Tafseer Qasmi, Volume 3 page 4

Hani

Re: Mutah - Umar banned it?
« Reply #1 on: February 21, 2015, 02:55:18 PM »
The theory that `Umar was the one to prohibit it is a very weak one and is opposed by extremely strong evidence that it was the Prophet (saw) who banned it.

Read all you wish to read on Mut`ah in these articles:
http://twelvershia.net/2015/02/12/prohibition-mutah-marriages/
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Hani

Re: Mutah - Umar banned it?
« Reply #2 on: February 21, 2015, 02:57:11 PM »
Now I ask, do you believe Mut`ah is important and useful for society? What are the laws of Mut`ah according to Imami Shia?
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

labelingtheory

Re: Mutah - Umar banned it?
« Reply #3 on: February 21, 2015, 04:13:00 PM »
Now I ask, do you believe Mut`ah is important and useful for society? What are the laws of Mut`ah according to Imami Shia?

I do think it is important, especially since many sunni ulema are allowing masturbation as a substitution to marital relations. Most Imami Shia's say that you have to have the permission of the father of the girl. Mutah is a process which can be very beneficial to society in many ways. More shias than sunnis that i know are very strict with gender relations and especially touching the opposite gender (no handshakes, hugs, etc). Mutah is very practical if you are taking care of an elderly person of the opposite gender. Also, this makes a lot more sense than telling grown men to drink the breast milk of a woman (this is an actual hadith by aisha and was made into a fatwa by a scholar at al-azhar). So yes I do think Mutah has many uses for society, of course permanent marriage is preferred for all believers. We both believe the prophet allowed mutah, but only Allah (swt) knows where scholars of the ahl sunnah got their belief that masturbation is permissible (yes I know the majority say makhruh).

MuslimK

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Re: Mutah - Umar banned it?
« Reply #4 on: February 21, 2015, 04:22:50 PM »
Muta was once allowed then banned just like alcohol. The Prophet (saw) banned Muta according to explicit authentic narrations. We Sunnis follow the sayings of the Prophet (saw). Zaydi Shia also believe in prohibition of Muta and they have narrations from Ali and Zayd etc.


در خلافت میل نیست ای بی‌خبر
میل کی آید ز بوبکر و عمر
میل اگر بودی در آن دو مقتدا
هر دو کردندی پسر را پیشوا

عطار نِیشابوری

www.Nahjul-Balagha.net | www.TwelverShia.net | www.ghadirkhumm.com

Hani

Re: Mutah - Umar banned it?
« Reply #5 on: February 21, 2015, 05:15:07 PM »
Although I've never heard of a Sunni scholar permit masturbation, as the orthodox position that I recall is that it is prohibited. Yet at the same time, you cannot compare masturbation which is a very small sin to "Mut`ah" which constitutes Zinah and fornication and can lead to disastrous results for the woman (The man benefits sexually). I add, if you do bring a Fatwa by some random scholar here or there, I can simply respond "He's wrong in his Ijtihad." Can you say the same for Mut`ah?

According to your scholars permission of a Wali is only required in case of a virgin. Other than that, the Mut`ah can be kept as secret and requires no witnesses. Meaning, any widow or divorced woman can work as a Mut`ah prostitute and make money according to the Fatwa of your scholars. Let alone the fact that your scholars openly permitted Mut`ah with prostitutes. They permitted it with Ahlul-Kitab whom your sect considers as Najis.

As for the breastfeeding Fatwa, this was rejected and cancelled by the scholars and `A'ishah made an incorrect Ijtihad at the time. Is Mut`ah also an incorrect Ijtihad of your Imams? I thought you were against taking odd opinions and generalizing it on an entire sect right?
« Last Edit: February 21, 2015, 05:16:46 PM by Hani »
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Hani

Re: Mutah - Umar banned it?
« Reply #6 on: February 21, 2015, 05:44:58 PM »
Here's a list of Fatwas from Sistani and Roohani from renowned Shia websites:

Sistani's Fatwas:
الرقم: 2
السؤال:إذا تم الزواج المؤقت من غير علم الاب ما الحكم في ذلك هل يكون باطل مع العلم بأنه لم يتم الدخول ؟
الجواب:العقد باطل اذا لم تكن البنت مستقله في شوؤن حياتها .
الرقم: 5
السؤال:هل يجوز المتعة مع فتاة كان اباها و جدها متوفيان ؟
الجواب:يجوز مع وفاة أب البكر الرشيدة وجدها من الاب و لايكون لاحد ولاية عليها و امرها بيدها .
الرقم: 7
السؤال:هل يشترط في الزواج الموقت و الدائم حضور شهود ؟
الجواب:العقد المنقطع و الدائم لايحتاج الى حضور شهود .
الرقم: 15
السؤال: هل زواج المتعة يحل علی الرجل المتزوج بدون علم زوجته؟
الجواب: يحل.
الرقم: 25
السؤال:هل يجوز زواج المتعة من الغير مسلمة ؟
الجواب: يجوز اذا كانت مسيحية او يهودية .
الرقم: 27
السؤال: اذا كان زواج المتعة محدد لمدة ساعة و استمر الجماع اكثر من ذلك هل وقعنا في الزنا ؟
الجواب: نعم .
الرقم: 35
السؤال:هل يجوز الاستغناء عن الزواج الدائم بزواج المتعة ؟
الجواب:يجوز ولا ينبغي .
201   السؤال:
هل يجوز أن تمتعهن المرأة ، أو الفتاة زواج المتعة كمهنة ضمن الضوابط الشرعية تعيش وتتكسب من خلالها ؟
الفتوى:
يجوز .
185   السؤال:
هل يستوجب زواج المتعة عقدا على الورق ؟.. وهل يستوجب شهودا ؟
الفتوى:
لا يحتاج .


Roohani's Fatwas:
السؤال: هل يجوز التمتع بنساء يعلنّ على الدوام رغبتهن علناً في النوم مع الرجال ولعلّهن مشهورات بالزنا على أن يتم اخبارهن عن أن المتعة ليست بزنا وهي زواج ديني مشروع ؟
الجواب: باسمه جلت اسمائه
يجوز التمتع بالمرئة المشهورة بالزنا بشرط عدم كونها في العدّة كما لو نامت مع رجل بإجراء العقد المؤقت عليها وافترقا ولم تنقض العدّة
---
السؤال: ما حكم التمتّع بالزانية ؟ وماذا لو كانت هذه الزانية مشهورة بالزنا والعياذ بالله أيصحّ التمتّع بها أم لا ؟ وهل يشترط أن تعترف بأنّ المتعة عقد شرعي أم لا يشترط ذلك ؟
الجواب: باسمه جلت اسمائه
التمتع بالزانيه جائز ـ وكذلك بالمشهورة بالزنا وان كان مكروها
---
السؤال: ما حكم التمتع بمرأة نيتها الزنا ونيتي المتعة مع علمها بالمتعة دون اعترافها به؟
الجواب: باسمه جلت اسمائه
النية بنحو الداعي لاتضر مع علمها بالانشاء و ايجاد العلقة ـ يجوز التمتع بها
---
السؤال: كم زوجة متعة يستطيع ان يتزوج الرجل في وقت واحد,وهل هو نفس عدد زوجات الدائم وهل يجمع عددهما (دائم و متعة)
الجواب: باسمه جلت اسمائه
ليس مقيدا بعدد و العدد منحصر بالدائم
---
السؤال: هل هناك عقد تحريم يختلف عن العقد المنقطع؟ أم انه لا يوجد غير المنقطع؟ وإذا أردت أن اجري عقدا منقطعا ولا استعمله لأغراض النكاح, فقط ليحل لي الكلام معها أو مجالستها , هل يشترط في هذا المورد إذن الأب ؟ أفتونا مأجورين ,
الجواب: باسمه جلت اسمائه
لا يشترط إذن الاب مطلقا إن كانت المرأة بالغة رشيدة


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Let us summarize what is being said and see if this is an open door for fornication or not:

It is a sexual relationship limited by a time and an agreed upon price:
1-The permission of the custodian/guardian is not required for non-virgins and even for adult independent virgins.
2-This relation can be kept secret from everyone and there is no need to announce this marriage in society.
3-There is no need for a written contract or witnesses.
4-A married man can do Mut`ah without informing his permanent wife behind her back and without her consent.
5-A man can do Mut`ah with non-Muslim Kitabi women who are considered physically impure(Najis) according to Shia.
6-There is no limit for the number of women a man can do Mut`ah with simultaneously unlike permanent marriage.
7-Mut`ah can be done with girls who are popular for their adultery and fornication.
8-Mut`ah can be done with women whose intentions are to fornicate and commit Zinah, not do Mut`ah. (Such as any hooker in New York)
9-Woman can do Mut`ah just to make money and rely on it as a career.
10-No need to ask the woman if she is married or to investigate this before you do Mut`ah with her.
11-In order for Mut`ah to be established a man has to say a Seeghah but the woman only has to say "Yes." (Which means this is an easy job for the hookers in New York who don't understand what Mut`ah is)
etc...

In other words, a wicked man once he meets a wicked woman, they fornicate and do Zinah, authorities can't do anything about it since if they are caught they can simply say "We were doing legitimate Mut`ah."
« Last Edit: February 21, 2015, 06:09:07 PM by Hani »
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Rationalist

Re: Mutah - Umar banned it?
« Reply #7 on: February 21, 2015, 09:38:34 PM »
Why even ask about Umar if you think he is a monafiq ? Prove to us that Imam Ali (as) allowed it from non-12er Shia sources.

labelingtheory

Re: Mutah - Umar banned it?
« Reply #8 on: February 22, 2015, 12:12:19 PM »
What do any of your points have to do with anything I said. I brought sahih sources from your own books, and you aren't even willing to argue against it?

 

Abu Zayd

Re: Mutah - Umar banned it?
« Reply #9 on: February 22, 2015, 01:00:59 PM »
What do any of your points have to do with anything I said. I brought sahih sources from your own books, and you aren't even willing to argue against it?

 

How do you reconcile those narrations with the ones that state the Prophet (pbuh) banned it? What's your rationale for picking one over the other?

labelingtheory

Re: Mutah - Umar banned it?
« Reply #10 on: February 22, 2015, 01:37:49 PM »
What do any of your points have to do with anything I said. I brought sahih sources from your own books, and you aren't even willing to argue against it?

 

How do you reconcile those narrations with the ones that state the Prophet (pbuh) banned it? What's your rationale for picking one over the other?

You are the the sunni you should be telling me why your sahih books are conflicting.

Abu Zayd

Re: Mutah - Umar banned it?
« Reply #11 on: February 22, 2015, 01:51:23 PM »
That's not a good response. I'm not a sunni as such but that's not relevant here because you're making a case and should support it fully. Do you accept Umar banning mutah simply because it goes with traditional Shia views about him? Or do you do so because you think the narrations stating the Prophet banned it are weak?

It's genuine question.

Rationalist

Re: Mutah - Umar banned it?
« Reply #12 on: February 22, 2015, 06:43:53 PM »
What do any of your points have to do with anything I said. I brought sahih sources from your own books, and you aren't even willing to argue against it?

 

Because on this case Imam Ali (as) is on Umar's side confirming that the Prophet (pbuh) banned it. As for some other companions they did differ, but sadly for you Imam Ali (as) in our books is one our side.

labelingtheory

Re: Mutah - Umar banned it?
« Reply #13 on: February 23, 2015, 09:06:20 AM »
That's not a good response. I'm not a sunni as such but that's not relevant here because you're making a case and should support it fully. Do you accept Umar banning mutah simply because it goes with traditional Shia views about him? Or do you do so because you think the narrations stating the Prophet banned it are weak?

It's genuine question.

I accept Umar banning mutah because it is what our hadith say, it is what is reported in your sahih books as well. If your own sahih traditions contradict themselves, I have not looked at the narrators for either but they are both in books that all sunnis call authentic are the not?

@rationalist - That still doesn't prove that Umar didn't ban it. Why do you pick and choose your sahih hadith? Are you claiming that a hadith in sahih muslim is weak? Or just because it agrees with your sunni version of Islam?

Rationalist

Re: Mutah - Umar banned it?
« Reply #14 on: February 23, 2015, 12:52:49 PM »


@rationalist - That still doesn't prove that Umar didn't ban it. Why do you pick and choose your sahih hadith? Are you claiming that a hadith in sahih muslim is weak? Or just because it agrees with your sunni version of Islam?
You need to learn that differences among the sahaba existed, just like differences among your scholars exist. Some of the companions said Muta was Halaal. However, Imam Ali (as) was not among them.

labelingtheory

Re: Mutah - Umar banned it?
« Reply #15 on: February 23, 2015, 12:58:17 PM »


@rationalist - That still doesn't prove that Umar didn't ban it. Why do you pick and choose your sahih hadith? Are you claiming that a hadith in sahih muslim is weak? Or just because it agrees with your sunni version of Islam?
You need to learn that differences among the sahaba existed, just like differences among your scholars exist. Some of the companions said Muta was Halaal. However, Imam Ali (as) was not among them.

Differences I am okay with, going to war with each other is not just having differences. You have to choose a side with who you want to be raised with on the day of judgement.

Your hadith from sahih sources are contradicting on who banned it and when it was banned, so I cannot trust the authenticity that Imam Ali did not allow it.

Rationalist

Re: Mutah - Umar banned it?
« Reply #16 on: February 23, 2015, 01:38:38 PM »


Differences I am okay with, going to war with each other is n ot just having differences. You have to choose a side with who you want to be raised with on the day of judgement.
The Quran says its possible for Momins to fight against Momins. It doesn't use the term Muslims. It uses Momins.

Quote
Your hadith from sahih sources are contradicting on who banned it and when it was banned, so I cannot trust the authenticity that Imam Ali did not allow it.
Your sahih hadith are contradicting about whether the Quran is incomplete or not. Also, for Muta we are not alone in this. The Zaidia criticize Umar, but when it comes to Muta they say its haraam through the narrations of Ahlul Bayt.

MuslimK

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Re: Mutah - Umar banned it?
« Reply #17 on: February 23, 2015, 02:02:47 PM »

Your hadith from sahih sources are contradicting on who banned it and when it was banned, so I cannot trust the authenticity that Imam Ali did not allow it.

It is just that some companions weren't ware of the prohibition of Muta but the explicit authenticate narrations from the Prophet (saw) are many about the prohibition of Muta. Read the evidences here: http://twelvershia.net/2015/02/12/prohibition-mutah-marriages/

Also, the contradiction in twelver narrations about muta is even worse. Read the contradiction in your books about Muta: http://twelvershia.net/2015/02/23/mutah-in-the-eyes-of-ahl-al-bayt-in-twelver-shia-traditions/
در خلافت میل نیست ای بی‌خبر
میل کی آید ز بوبکر و عمر
میل اگر بودی در آن دو مقتدا
هر دو کردندی پسر را پیشوا

عطار نِیشابوری

www.Nahjul-Balagha.net | www.TwelverShia.net | www.ghadirkhumm.com

Hani

Re: Mutah - Umar banned it?
« Reply #18 on: February 23, 2015, 03:33:51 PM »
@Shia

Quote
Your hadith from sahih sources are contradicting on who banned it and when it was banned, so I cannot trust the authenticity that Imam Ali did not allow it.

It's only you who are unqualified to comprehend and research and harmonize between historical evidence and Fiqhi texts.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

sawaaiq

Re: Mutah - Umar banned it?
« Reply #19 on: February 23, 2015, 10:49:52 PM »
Quote
You have to choose a side with who you want to be raised with on the day of judgement.

So the Rafidha want to be raised with Bashar and La ilaah illah Bashar, considering almost none of your ulama and shuyookh have condemned the kufr of his regime, and what do Abu Bakr and Umar have to do with the Battle of Jamal and Siffeen?

 

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