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Need your assistance guys

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Adil

Need your assistance guys
« on: January 20, 2020, 10:51:37 PM »
Asalaamualaykum, so a shia from reddit requested to talk and I thought whatever let's see what he has to stay. It kinda went the way you'd assume it would've played out. Got a tonne of quotes or references thrown at me with no real way way of establishing the reliability or background or the actual sunni view (he was arguing that xyz was the sunni view but after past encounters with shia, I've found it best to investigate what the sunni view is myself cos a lot of the time shia misrepresent the views of sunnis just to win debates or cause doubt etc...). I'm not saying he was misrepresenting on purpose but normally one guy writes it up somewhere and then legions of them just begin to quote it to sunnis. For example when I started copy pasting the quotes into google, hits to shia websites would come up.

So he was trying to persuade me that Aisha (ra) severely dislike Muawiya (ra) and that Muawiya (ra) killed her (ra). These are the quotes he gave:

Quote
“Following the death of Muhammad bin ‘Abu Bakr the people of Egypt gave bayya to Mu’awiya. It was following this (event) that Ummul Mu’mineen Ayesha would curse Mu’awiya and Amr bin Aas after every Salaat”.
1. Tar’ikh Ibn al Wardi Voume 1 page 245
2. Tar’ikh Kamil Vol. 3 page 180
3. Uthman Shaheed by Muhammadi bin Yahya bin Abi Bakar Maliki (d. 741 H), Urdu translation by Kaukab Shadani, page 216 (Nafees Academy Karachi)
4. Tadhkira tul Khawas, page 62



He also brought forward a quote to try to damage the my perception of Muawiya (ra)

Quote
We read in al Bidaya, Volume 8 page 108 “Dhikr Qays bin Sa’d bin Ibada” that he mocked Mu’awiya as follows:

فقال له قيس‏:‏ وأنت يا معاوية كنت صنماً من أصنام الجاهلية
“O Muawiya! You are an idol from amongst the idols of jahilyya”

We read in Muruj al Dhahab Volume 8 page 125:

“Your son is an idol worshipper as are you”

And this:

Quote
We read in Ahl’ul sunnahs book Maqatil Husayn’ page 117 part 4:

“Imam Hasan reminded Mu’awiya of the occasion “when your father was riding a red camel you was in front of him and your brother Utbah was dragging the camel by its nose? On that occasion Rasulullah (s) cursed your father, brother and you”

Rasulullah’s cursing of these three individuals on this specific occasion can also be located in Waq’at Sifeen, Volume 8 page 185.

Ibn Katheer in al Bidaya wa al Nihaya, Volume 8 page 133 records this Hadeeth:

“If you see Mu’awiya on my pulpit then kill him”

And the claim that Muawiya (ra) killed Aisha (ra), I think he was trying to say that "oh look some sunni scholars are mentioned so it's true":



Now the thing is I can't deal with this because I'm not knowledgeable. I'd have to individually identify each scholar, then they see if they said what this guy is claiming they said. Or I'd have to find and read these books and then find commentary to see views of scholars on these books. So it's a long haul. But I reckon one of you has probably already faced these same argument and maybe you've got some links lying around that I could read. I've seen it before on twitter where shia bring forward some obscure historical passage and claim it's reliable but it turn's out it's not or they have the wrong meaning or whatever.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2020, 10:58:02 PM by Adil »

Adil

Re: Need your assistance guys
« Reply #1 on: January 20, 2020, 10:57:12 PM »
He also mentioned Qur'an verse 5:55 and he said this proof for wilayah of Ali (ra). He screenshot a wikipedia page which said both sunnis and shias say part of the verse is referring to Ali (ra) and as proof for sunnis, he gave a hadith from a book called Kanz al ummal.

This is the narration he gave:

Quote
Ali gave someone his ring in alms while he was in the state of rukūʿ in prayer. The Prophet (S) asked the beggar, "Who gave you this ring?" He replied, "That man during rukūʿ." Then Allah sent down the verse, "Your Waliyy is only Allah, His Messenger, and those who believe, those who establish ṣalāt and pay zakāt while they are bowing in rukūʿ." On that was written, "Glory be to He who honored me by making me His slave." After that it was engraved on his ring that all power and authority belongs to Allah.


And he gave another narration mentioned on wikipedia as proof :


One of you have an article on this?  For this I did a little bit of research myself, I read ibn kathir's tafsir, I googled the name of book and read a very article on it by a scholar. I can see cracks beginning to form in his argument.

Adil

Re: Need your assistance guys
« Reply #2 on: January 20, 2020, 11:11:16 PM »
My personal views on this conversation with him are that shias really like to big up sources or sunni scholars that they share things from. For example, he was full of praises for Al-Tabari and bigging him up (obviously I'm not trying to attack a past scholar, just describing the conversation). He would share narrations from obscure books like I mentioned and he would be insistent that I accept what they said as proof without me even going to check up on them. Although he did start the conversation more emotionally charged so that may be the reason his initial insistence I accept what he says.  At the same he was more critical of sahih al-bukhari, he would make criticisms which I'll write up later. You could see the obvious bias.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2020, 11:14:50 PM by Adil »

muslim720

Re: Need your assistance guys
« Reply #3 on: January 21, 2020, 02:09:29 AM »
Salaam alaykum wa rahmatullah,

Would love to help and I'll do the best I can.

Regarding your first post - all the references that cast doubt on Muawiya - he is wholesale copy-pasting from ShiaPen: http://www.shiapen.com/comprehensive/muawiya/merits-of-ibn-hind.html

In the same article, we see the following citation: "Ibn Abi al Hadeed in Sharh Nahjul Balagha".  Ibn Abi al Hadeed, at best, was a Mu'tazili and others have also stated that he was a Shia. 

It gets worse when the same article tries to prove Muawiya being a "Nasibi" by quoting, "Lisan al Arab page 762 by Ibn Manzur".  Lisan al Arab is a dictionary!

Also, you can see that nearly all of the references come from historical texts but even the crown jewel of historical books, like Tareekh at-Tabari, which he praises, is not 100% authentic.  Imam Tabari (rah), in the introduction, admits that not everything in his book is authentic; that he only collected and compiled everything he heard.  And he left the task of authenticating each report on the reader.  So if that is the case with Tareekh at-Tabari, you can rest assured that the rest of the historical works are prone to the same issue (in many cases, these historical works primarily rely on Tareekh at-Tabari).  Therefore, it is upon this Shi'i brother to authenticate his historical references and not doing so, or not being able to do so, questions his competency and does not help his case.

As for "If you see Mu’awiya on my pulpit then kill him", read this: https://mahajjah.com/if-you-see-muawiyah-on-my-pulpit-then-kill-him/ 

In short, the report is mawdu or fabricated.

Moving along, his explanation of 5:55 is extremely problematic for various reasons.  The verse says, "Your (real) friends are (no less than) Allah, His Messenger, and the (fellowship of) believers,- those who establish regular prayers and regular charity, and they bow down humbly (in worship)".  So they establish prayer, charity and bow down in worship.  It does not say they establish prayer, give charity WHILE they bow down in worship.  Furthermore, notice how the verse says, "THEY", meaning there can be many, not just one.

Regarding the narration itself, it is a fabrication.  Please read: https://islamqa.info/en/answers/112081/the-hadith-ali-may-allah-be-pleased-with-him-gave-his-ring-in-charity-whilst-he-was-bowing-in-prayer

Usually in discussions with Shias, I stay away from Muawiya because honestly, I do not love him nor do I dislike him; I am neutral in regards to Muawiya.  In fact in doing so (not clinging on to Muawiya), I prove to the Shias that I can concede miles upon miles of territory without damaging the core foundations of Ahlus Sunnah Wal Jama'ah whereas the Shias cannot even give up a centimeter from their side. 

To prove that, you should ask him why he, as a Shia, hates Muawiya?  After all, his 2nd "infallible" Imam (ra) made peace with Muawiya and abdicated his "Divinely Ordained Wilayah" for Muawiya.  Surely, Imam Hassan (ra), as an "infallible", wanted Muawiya to rule which proves that Muawiya's rule was as per Allah's (swt) pleasure, hence, he (Muawiya) was a good man.  And if he does not accept that, then ask him if Imam Hassan (ra) made that decision out of his own reason, will and accord which then shatters Imam Hassan's (ra) "infallibility".
« Last Edit: January 21, 2020, 02:12:36 AM by muslim720 »
"Our coward ran from those in authority" - Iceman (admitting the truth regarding his 12th Imam)

Adil

Re: Need your assistance guys
« Reply #4 on: January 21, 2020, 05:02:06 AM »
Interesting quote from the article you posted from the shia:

Quote
Nasibi excuses for the Prophet’s curse on Muawiya’s stomach

Anyone with the slightest honesty can recognize how severely Muawiya is being condemned in this Hadeeth. Unsurprisingly the Nawasib due to their absence of integrity offer an alternative interpretation, and seek to suggest that the Hadeeth should be recognized as an appraisal of Muawiya. Consider this the article ‘Hadith About Muawiyyah: “May Allah Not Fill His Belly” [A Sunni Perspective]’ wherein Ibn al-Hashimi stated:

    The Shia will look within the Hadith collection of the Ahlus Sunnah in order to prove their viewpoint. However, the Shia will oftentimes need to make use of academic deceit when they quote such Hadith. One such example can be found when they procure Hadith about Muawiyyah.
    It is recorded in the Hadith of the Ahlus Sunnah that the Prophet said of Muawiyyah, “May Allah not fill his belly.” The Shia will then claim that the Hadith thereby condemns Muawiyyah. What these Shia fail to say is that there is an Arabic saying “may Allah not fill your belly” which means “may your sustenance be without end” (i.e. its end never come). In the Semitic cultures, this is a commonly used colloquialism: when someone is about to die, people say that so-and-so has reached his fill of food.
    Oftentimes, Shia youth will go to various discussion forums and use simple “copy and pastes” in order to “prove” their point; they will duplicate this Hadith. These Shia propagandists do not have a grasp of the Arabic language and are thus liable to make such mistakes whereby they take things drastically out of context. The analogy of this is a man telling his son to “break a leg” before a soccer match. If we were to literally translate “break a leg” into Chinese, it would lose its intended meaning; a Chinese reader would think that this father actually wants his son to physically get hurt! If this same Chinese reader asked the Chinese police to arrest this man for child abuse, they would probably do so. But if this Chinese reader went to English-speaking police, they would probably laugh at him for misinterpreting English colloquialism. In the same manner do we laugh at the Shia who use the afore-mentioned Hadith to prove anything.
    The truth is that the Shia scholars who first posted this Hadith about Muawiyyah were engaging in deceit in order to fool the masses and “prove” their point. In reality, the Hadith is in praise of Muawiyyah and not a condemnation of him. Unfortunately, this Hadith is now circulating the internet without proper context. We see that this is a recurring theme in the debate with the Shia.

The quote by the sunni scholar describes shia perfectly yet they call him a nasibi and say the scholar lacked integrity lol. And then in the next paragraph they try to fire back but they kinda destroy their own integrity by ignoring half a chapter heading.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2020, 05:10:00 AM by Adil »

Adil

Re: Need your assistance guys
« Reply #5 on: January 21, 2020, 05:12:26 AM »
May Allah reward you for your bro.  :)

Adil

Re: Need your assistance guys
« Reply #6 on: January 21, 2020, 05:34:34 AM »
Well apparantly your islamqa link is not good enough bro. Not coz there's any argument made against but because "it's a salafi website and Ibn Taymiyya is a nasibi".

I wasn't really expecting any better even though he seems to be an very educated person. But this seems to be an even more one-sided affair then it normally is.

Adil

Re: Need your assistance guys
« Reply #7 on: January 21, 2020, 05:37:18 AM »
May Allah reward you for your bro.  :)

May Allah reward you for your effort bro. :) **

Bolani Muslim

Re: Need your assistance guys
« Reply #8 on: January 21, 2020, 11:41:06 AM »
Shift the argument, no matter what evidence you bring, he will never respect the Companions, so it is a lost cause. Tell him that the institution of marja'ism began ~150 years ago, that their earliest scholars were anthropomorphists, that Sheikh Sudooq believed that the Prophet (p) frowned in Surah Abasa, that their ancient scholars disagreed on infallibility, that Mukhtar murdered Ubaydullah b. Ali b. Abu Talib, that Sheikh Tusi wrote that there is more ikhtilaf within their sect than the 4 madhabs which had caused many Shia scholars to become Sunni, that the Imams lived extremely far from their "Shia" (hence fabricated in their names). These are the types facts that will bring doubt to his heart, not discussing the Sahaba since they are so brainwashed.

Be aggressive and demand answers. Force him to agree that Shi'ism is a sect which evolved over time and that the imamate did not aid in the formation of Shi'ism. If he chooses to blindly follow his sect then ignore him.

muslim720

Re: Need your assistance guys
« Reply #9 on: January 21, 2020, 10:23:44 PM »
May Allah reward you for your bro.  :)

Aameen!  And may Allah (swt) reward you too and those brothers who refuted all these claims online (e.g., Farid, Hani, Shemrani, etc).


Quote
Well apparantly your islamqa link is not good enough bro. Not coz there's any argument made against but because "it's a salafi website and Ibn Taymiyya is a nasibi".

Fine, here is another link that does not quote Ibn Taymiyya (rah): https://mahajjah.com/shia-beliefs-the-verse-of-wilayah/


Quote
I wasn't really expecting any better even though he seems to be an very educated person. But this seems to be an even more one-sided affair then it normally is.

Unfortunately, there are many educated people that allow their emotions to cloud their rational faculties.

"Our coward ran from those in authority" - Iceman (admitting the truth regarding his 12th Imam)

Adil

Re: Need your assistance guys
« Reply #10 on: January 22, 2020, 01:34:37 AM »
Shift the argument, no matter what evidence you bring, he will never respect the Companions, so it is a lost cause. Tell him that the institution of marja'ism began ~150 years ago, that their earliest scholars were anthropomorphists, that Sheikh Sudooq believed that the Prophet (p) frowned in Surah Abasa, that their ancient scholars disagreed on infallibility, that Mukhtar murdered Ubaydullah b. Ali b. Abu Talib, that Sheikh Tusi wrote that there is more ikhtilaf within their sect than the 4 madhabs which had caused many Shia scholars to become Sunni, that the Imams lived extremely far from their "Shia" (hence fabricated in their names). These are the types facts that will bring doubt to his heart, not discussing the Sahaba since they are so brainwashed.

Be aggressive and demand answers. Force him to agree that Shi'ism is a sect which evolved over time and that the imamate did not aid in the formation of Shi'ism. If he chooses to blindly follow his sect then ignore him.

May Allah reward you for your post bro.

However I've chosen to forgo this conversation. Seemed like wasting time if I'm insisted on to accept things without assessing reliability whereas he feels okay rejecting things without reading just because it is salafi or mentions sunni scholars he doesn't like.

Both you and Muslim720 make a good point about them not accepting the companions so I'm going to think about my strategy a bit.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2020, 01:35:52 AM by Adil »

Adil

Re: Need your assistance guys
« Reply #11 on: January 22, 2020, 01:36:56 AM »
Aameen!  And may Allah (swt) reward you too and those brothers who refuted all these claims online (e.g., Farid, Hani, Shemrani, etc).


Fine, here is another link that does not quote Ibn Taymiyya (rah): https://mahajjah.com/shia-beliefs-the-verse-of-wilayah/


Unfortunately, there are many educated people that allow their emotions to cloud their rational faculties.

Ameen.

Yeh you're right man and thanks for the link. I'll make a note of it incase anyone brings up something similar in future.

muslim720

Re: Need your assistance guys
« Reply #12 on: January 22, 2020, 02:16:24 AM »
However I've chosen to forgo this conversation.

Allow me to break down every Shia-Sunni online conversation:

1.  Shia brother initiates the discussion.
2.  Shia brother assures you that such a discussion will be beneficial to not just the participants but also to those reading.
3.  Shia brother throws a barrage of references.
4.  Shia brother grows impatient when you systematically refute most, if not all, of his points, thereby, casting doubt on his entire argument.
5.  Shia brother starts saying you need to study more and gets angrier.
6.  Finally, Shia brother starts cursing the Sahaba (ra) and tells you that you are a Nasibi.

In person, however, the same steps follow suit except 6.  Instead of cursing, you see the defeat on their face.  And they usually act very calm because they have been forced to tread far from their script.

See the following discussion topic where I discussed my debate with a Shi'i brother at their mosque: http://forum.twelvershia.net/general-discussion/discussion-at-the-local-shia-mosque/msg21877/#msg21877
"Our coward ran from those in authority" - Iceman (admitting the truth regarding his 12th Imam)

Adil

Re: Need your assistance guys
« Reply #13 on: January 22, 2020, 03:24:27 AM »
Allow me to break down every Shia-Sunni online conversation:

1.  Shia brother initiates the discussion.
2.  Shia brother assures you that such a discussion will be beneficial to not just the participants but also to those reading.
3.  Shia brother throws a barrage of references.
4.  Shia brother grows impatient when you systematically refute most, if not all, of his points, thereby, casting doubt on his entire argument.
5.  Shia brother starts saying you need to study more and gets angrier.
6.  Finally, Shia brother starts cursing the Sahaba (ra) and tells you that you are a Nasibi.

In person, however, the same steps follow suit except 6.  Instead of cursing, you see the defeat on their face.  And they usually act very calm because they have been forced to tread far from their script.

See the following discussion topic where I discussed my debate with a Shi'i brother at their mosque: http://forum.twelvershia.net/general-discussion/discussion-at-the-local-shia-mosque/msg21877/#msg21877

He definitely did number 5. He said I knew nothing and then asked for when the Prophet (pbuh) received relevation as to kinda prove his point that I knew nothing. I mean mate, I'm here to listen to what you have to say and then I'll go look your arguments up... I think he's done this before and expected me to cave and concede to all his points. Little did he know I had seen TSD people on twitter talking about shia bringing up unreliable historical reports so I wasn't gna nod my head.

Lol I read your debate, it was very similar to mine except from the fact that you knew the argument inside out already XD . Exact same wilayah one.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2020, 03:26:57 AM by Adil »

muslim720

Re: Need your assistance guys
« Reply #14 on: January 22, 2020, 06:54:09 PM »
Lol I read your debate, it was very similar to mine except from the fact that you knew the argument inside out already XD . Exact same wilayah one.

All credit goes to brothers like Farid, Hani, ibn Hashim, Shemrani, etc, who shared all this information across various platforms so we can defend our faith.  May Allah (swt) bless them and us and may Allah (swt) guide our Shia brothers.
"Our coward ran from those in authority" - Iceman (admitting the truth regarding his 12th Imam)

 

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