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Sunni Shia Discussion Forum => General Sunni-Shia => Topic started by: scusemyenglish on July 13, 2016, 09:33:36 AM

Title: Our scholars, quiet toward shiasm?
Post by: scusemyenglish on July 13, 2016, 09:33:36 AM
Salam.

I have read you tweet saying

"When will our English speaking scholars finally start focusing their efforts against Shiasm?
Please retweet and share with our scholars."


It's a question that I ask me since many mounth.

How our scholars are rather "quiet" toward shiams?

Why it's also "simple" muslims like "us" who refute shiasm?
Title: Re: Our scholars, quiet toward shiasm?
Post by: learning boy on July 13, 2016, 10:32:17 AM
hello brother,

I really wish your scholars were quiet about Shia Islam. I wish that they kept their mouths closed so that innocent Shia Men, Women and Children don't have to get their arms blown off while walking down a Baghdad street market. I wish your scholars showed Shia Islam earnestly and with no bias, so that a wahhabi will not have the intentions of killing 300 people during Eid. I wish your scholars were quiet.
Title: Re: Our scholars, quiet toward shiasm?
Post by: Husayn on July 13, 2016, 12:57:42 PM
The simple answer, brother, is that Ahlul Sunnah are a group that is focused on learning Qur'an and Sunnah.

The Shi'a on the other hand are a reactionary sect whose entire existence depends on contradicting Ahlul Sunnah. The average Shi'i is brought up on polemical arguments from an early age.

Their most famous books are works such as "Then I was guided", "Peshawar Nights", "Al-Muraja'at". You will find these books in many Shi'i households. These are anti-Sunni polemical works.

Whereas the average Sunni does not know or care for Shi'i beliefs.

This was fine up until maybe 100 years ago, with the fragmentation of the Ummah into disparate nation-states and the rise of the Shi'a with the institution of a sectarian Shi'a government in Iran in 1979.

Unfortunately, as polemical works were never emphasised by Sunnis over the centuries, we are currently playing catch up.

I believe the main reason that few Sunni scholars are engaged in polemical actions against the Shi'a is because over the centuries Sunnis never felt a need for it, and so we don't have an established tradition.
Title: Re: Our scholars, quiet toward shiasm?
Post by: muslim720 on July 13, 2016, 01:35:19 PM
hello brother,

I really wish your scholars were quiet about Shia Islam. I wish that they kept their mouths closed so that innocent Shia Men, Women and Children don't have to get their arms blown off while walking down a Baghdad street market. I wish your scholars showed Shia Islam earnestly and with no bias, so that a wahhabi will not have the intentions of killing 300 people during Eid. I wish your scholars were quiet.

Salaam alaykum,
If anything, you should wish for Hassan Shaytanyari and Yasser al-Khabeeth to shut their mouths.  You can have a 100 Sunni "scholars" condone violence against Shias and you might move one or two individuals to even think of doing something remotely as despicable as what happened in Iraq recently.  But you play a minute-long clip by any of those two sons of Iblees and you will have Sunni youth up-in-arms against the Shia.
Title: Re: Our scholars, quiet toward shiasm?
Post by: scusemyenglish on July 13, 2016, 02:46:44 PM
Insh'Allah I hope those who are in this daawa will give their view.

First of all I think our scholars are the representation of the real Islam.

So the Daawa of Islam is not based upon the polemics or controversal like other groups especially shia.

I think, our scholars since the begining  of Islam , they count on fitra of humans.

And the fitra of human is to like the Tawhid, the Kitab of Allah , say no to shirk etc...

So we have two approches.

One based upon a substantive work with the Fitra, the Tawhid and it's the Islam which natturally attract humanity and people.

And a Second based Upon polemical, scandal, conspiracie theorie,rumour, nothing solid.

Title: Re: Our scholars, quiet toward shiasm?
Post by: scusemyenglish on July 13, 2016, 02:49:58 PM


Unfortunately, as polemical works were never emphasised by Sunnis over the centuries, we are currently playing catch up.

I believe the main reason that few Sunni scholars are engaged in polemical actions against the Shi'a is because over the centuries Sunnis never felt a need for it, and so we don't have an established tradition.

Yes it's also a good point raised here!
Title: The Shia and Unity in Islam - Shaykh Hamza Yusuf --- this is the reason
Post by: taha taha on July 13, 2016, 04:11:16 PM
Title: Shia (Shiite) Islam is not Islam, it is KUFR (disbelief)
Post by: taha taha on July 13, 2016, 04:12:55 PM
Title: Sunnism & Shi'ism: Press TV interview Dr Yasir Qadhi
Post by: taha taha on July 13, 2016, 04:14:41 PM
Title: Re: Our scholars, quiet toward shiasm?
Post by: taha taha on July 13, 2016, 04:18:17 PM
these are not scholars
and you should not think that they are your scholars 
- but for the idiots in the west a lot of them people think they are.
they now work for a system.
to promote ....the agenda

Title: Shia killed Sunni at Iraq - True Story - Syiah bunuh Sunni di Iraq
Post by: taha taha on July 13, 2016, 04:27:00 PM


and now think why are the tables turned.
beacuse you were doing this to sunnah.
Title: Re: Our scholars, quiet toward shiasm?
Post by: GreatChineseFall on July 13, 2016, 04:36:21 PM
I disagree, it's good that these websites exist and that they are easily accessible for those who want to find information, but it shouldn't be popular nor should scholars en masse start to pay attention to it. The ratio of sunni's and shia's is extremely unbalanced and because of simple laws of dynamics of conversion this will only result in more shia's effectively, especially if most polemics are largely based on emotions anyway. It only validates the perception of the twelver shia creed as a reasonable alternative.
Title: Re: Our scholars, quiet toward shiasm?
Post by: ShiaMan on July 13, 2016, 05:05:31 PM
Salam.

I have read you tweet saying

"When will our English speaking scholars finally start focusing their efforts against Shiasm?
Please retweet and share with our scholars."


It's a question that I ask me since many mounth.

How our scholars are rather "quiet" toward shiams?

Why it's also "simple" muslims like "us" who refute shiasm?

A few tried and invariably either became shia or were put in there place. It is so 'simple' for people like you because all you do is talk amongst yourselves. I have found nothing of value on this site. Just lies and you know my faith in shia islam solidifies more when you lie to me about my faith.

Salaam alaykum,
If anything, you should wish for Hassan Shaytanyari and Yasser al-Khabeeth to shut their mouths.  You can have a 100 Sunni "scholars" condone violence against Shias and you might move one or two individuals to even think of doing something remotely as despicable as what happened in Iraq recently.  But you play a minute-long clip by any of those two sons of Iblees and you will have Sunni youth up-in-arms against the Shia.

I am with you as far as Yasir Al-Habib is concerned. I disagree with 100% of his words and actions even when he is being 'pro-shia'. He is nothing more than a fitna agent. His background is that he was in jail in Kuwait and then all of a sudden got bail, moved to England on a $2m property.

Title: Re: Our scholars, quiet toward shiasm?
Post by: muslim720 on July 13, 2016, 06:26:02 PM
A few tried and invariably either became shia or were put in there place.

Like for example who?

Quote
It is so 'simple' for people like you because all you do is talk amongst yourselves.

I have talked far more in Shia mosques.

Quote
I have found nothing of value on this site.

....and I spoke about the material found on this site which rendered them helpless to the point that one Shia imam denied basic Islamic facts.

Quote
Just lies and you know my faith in shia islam solidifies more when you lie to me about my faith.

More than having an effect on you, the purpose of this website, and others like it, is to make young Sunnis capable of countering Shia attacks.  After all, our mosques do not feature books that refute Shias.  But I have not been to a Shia mosque that does not have "Peshawar Nights" on its shelves.  They do not have Al-Kafi - not one of them has Al-Kafi in Arabic, let alone English - but they all have "Peshawar Nights".

That makes it clear to those who know that your madhhab does not want educated and informed followers; it thrives on emotion and intellectually attacking mainstream Muslims (though the words "Shia" and "intellect" are dichotomous in my view).

Quote
I am with you as far as Yasir Al-Habib is concerned. I disagree with 100% of his words and actions even when he is being 'pro-shia'. He is nothing more than a fitna agent. His background is that he was in jail in Kuwait and then all of a sudden got bail, moved to England on a $2m property.



lol and Shaytanyari is hiding somewhere in California under God knows whose protection.
Title: Re: Our scholars, quiet toward shiasm?
Post by: ShiaMan on July 13, 2016, 06:31:27 PM
Like for example who?

Look up Dawah Guy. I called him out several times but no response. Guy was a joke.

....and I spoke about the material found on this site which rendered them helpless to the point that one Shia imam denied basic Islamic facts.

For example?

More than having an effect on you, the purpose of this website, and others like it, is to make young Sunnis capable of countering Shia attacks.  After all, our mosques do not feature books that refute Shias.  But I have not been to a Shia mosque that does not have "Peshawar Nights" on its shelves.  They do not have Al-Kafi - not one of them has Al-Kafi in Arabic, let alone English - but they all have "Peshawar Nights".
Any success? I have yet to find anything of note. no OMG moments for me brother.


lol and Shaytanyari is hiding somewhere in California under God knows whose protection.
Who are you referring to?
Title: Re: Our scholars, quiet toward shiasm?
Post by: muslim720 on July 13, 2016, 06:40:37 PM
Look up Dawah Guy. I called him out several times but no response. Guy was a joke.

You remind me of this clown that was hell-bent that he would make me renounce my faith.  He came here and ran away in less than a week.  And no, we did not gang up on him.  I was the only person to respond to him.  All  other posts were deleted. 

Coming back to you, I think he brought more substance than you.

Quote

For example?

...that the Prophet [saw] appointed Abu Bakr [ra] to lead the Muslims in prayer when he [saw] was ill.

Quote
Any success? I have yet to find anything of note. no OMG moments for me brother.

Big time!  You are trying so hard and going no where with your tricks...certainly counts as one :D

However, I want you to clarify the following statement you made: "A few tried and invariably either became shia or were put in there place."  I want names and I can bet you that you do not know anything about Al-Mustakillah debates.  And if you do, you are doing a good job of feigning ignorance.
Title: Re: Our scholars, quiet toward shiasm?
Post by: ShiaMan on July 13, 2016, 07:48:56 PM

You remind me of this clown that was hell-bent that he would make me renounce my faith.  He came here and ran away in less than a week.  And no, we did not gang up on him.  I was the only person to respond to him.  All  other posts were deleted. 
Coming back to you, I think he brought more substance than you.
I am only here to pass the time while ShiaChat is down but I will stick around. I havent even begun yet. I am feeling you guys out for now. Deciding to take you seriously or as jokers that you are.

...that the Prophet [saw] appointed Abu Bakr [ra] to lead the Muslims in prayer when he [saw] was ill.
Didnt that same Abu Bakr also pray behind Amr Al-Aas. So shouldnt he then get precedence over Abu Bakr. Also, wasnt Abu Bakr just an infantryman under Usama bin Zayed so if he had not ignored the Prophet's command and gone to the Army of Usama, then he would be praying salah behind Usama. But that is a different discussion for a different time.

However, I want you to clarify the following statement you made: "A few tried and invariably either became shia or were put in there place."  I want names and I can bet you that you do not know anything about Al-Mustakillah debates.  And if you do, you are doing a good job of feigning ignorance.
I named Dawah Guy - I called him out several times. Some of his followers responded but he didnt.

I have heard of the Al-Mustakillah debates and seen a few videos. Not too impressed.
Title: Re: Our scholars, quiet toward shiasm?
Post by: scusemyenglish on July 13, 2016, 10:04:25 PM
Taha. I know they refute SHiasm. But only in their outlines and not in details.

They often analysed them only through their shirk, bad manners etc...
Title: Re: Our scholars, quiet toward shiasm?
Post by: scusemyenglish on July 13, 2016, 10:24:57 PM
Honestly I think they have no intention to invested this field...

I think if they don't refute them in detail there is neccesary a reason.

At the beginning I thougt it's because they are not aware of new techologie but obviously it's not that.

My view it's like we say.

" Scholars they see fitna before its appears, But jahyl, ignorants they see fitna many years after its appearance"

I think may be they see fitna in this field. Because like they are the best of our community may be they consider if they invest personnaly this field that can do more harm than good

For example you can see this question asked by one man to Cheyk El Albani about Abou Hourayra. And is answer is particulary short as if he didn't want to elaborate.



It's just today with all I have read about Abou Hirr that I understood the words of El Albani because adith from Abou Hourayra are clearly against the shia creed about infaillibility etc...

I think they are animated by the fact that the truth can't be introduced with the same way for every one.

We have 2 hadith from Ibn Massoud and Ali (may be from AIcha also) saying sometime it's better to not talk about everythink for don't caused troubles.

So unfortunely I think we will be alone for longtime :--p
Title: Re: Our scholars, quiet toward shiasm?
Post by: ShiaMan on July 13, 2016, 11:31:43 PM
Honestly I think they have no intention to invested this field...

I think if they don't refute them in detail there is neccesary a reason.

At the beginning I thougt it's because they are not aware of new techologie but obviously it's not that.

My view it's like we say.

" Scholars they see fitna before its appears, But jahyl, ignorants they see fitna many years after its appearance"

I think may be they see fitna in this field. Because like they are the best of our community may be they consider if they invest personnaly this field that can do more harm than good

For example you can see this question asked by one man to Cheyk El Albani about Abou Hourayra. And is answer is particulary short as if he didn't want to elaborate.



It's just today with all I have read about Abou Hirr that I understood the words of El Albani because adith from Abou Hourayra are clearly against the shia creed about infaillibility etc...

I think they are animated by the fact that the truth can't be introduced with the same way for every one.

We have 2 hadith from Ibn Massoud and Ali (may be from AIcha also) saying sometime it's better to not talk about everythink for don't caused troubles.

So unfortunely I think we will be alone for longtime :--p

Yes it is true as the scholar said, "Abu Huraira broke our (as in Shias) backs." We believe that it is impossible to see Allah but Abu Huraira told us otherwise:

Abu Haraira reported:
The people said to the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ): Messenger of Allah, shall we see our Lord on the Day of Resurrection? The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said: Do you feel any trouble in seeing the moon on the night when it is full? They said: Messenger of Allah, no. He (the Messenger) further said: Do you feel any trouble in seeing the sun, when there is no cloud over it? They said: Messenger of Allah. no. He (the Holy Prophet) said: Verily you would see Him like this (as you see the sun and the moon)....
Sahih Muslim
Book 1, Hadith 358

So, do you ever wonder what Allah looks like?
Title: Re: Our scholars, quiet toward shiasm?
Post by: muslim720 on July 14, 2016, 01:16:49 AM
I am only here to pass the time while ShiaChat is down but I will stick around. I havent even begun yet. I am feeling you guys out for now. Deciding to take you seriously or as jokers that you are.

Oh, got you!  In case you do not know, I cleaned house while I was in ShiaChat.  Please take us as jokers.  That way you might have some hope, false of course, in the beginning.

Quote
Didnt that same Abu Bakr also pray behind Amr Al-Aas. So shouldnt he then get precedence over Abu Bakr. Also, wasnt Abu Bakr just an infantryman under Usama bin Zayed so if he had not ignored the Prophet's command and gone to the Army of Usama, then he would be praying salah behind Usama. But that is a different discussion for a different time.

What does this have to do with what I said and how does that save face for your Shia imam that denied that basic fact?  Given that you do not deny it, I am glad that you admit that while the Prophet [saw] was alive, he [saw] appointed Abu Bakr [ra] to lead the Muslims in prayer (when he was ill).  Imagine if the Prophet [saw] had appointed Imam Ali [ra] for the task.  You would have been dancing to a different beat altogether.

Quote
I named Dawah Guy - I called him out several times. Some of his followers responded but he didnt.

Who is Dawah Guy?  I do not remember accepting him as my scholar.

Quote
I have heard of the Al-Mustakillah debates and seen a few videos. Not too impressed.

Glad you were not impressed.  I do not blame you.  After all, the Shia side was exposed and paraded as beyond pathetic, lol! 
Title: Re: Our scholars, quiet toward shiasm?
Post by: ShiaMan on July 14, 2016, 02:57:08 AM
I am only here to pass the time while ShiaChat is down but I will stick around. I havent even begun yet. I am feeling you guys out for now. Deciding to take you seriously or as jokers that you are.

Oh, got you!  In case you do not know, I cleaned house while I was in ShiaChat.  Please take us as jokers.  That way you might have some hope, false of course, in the beginning.

Quote
Didnt that same Abu Bakr also pray behind Amr Al-Aas. So shouldnt he then get precedence over Abu Bakr. Also, wasnt Abu Bakr just an infantryman under Usama bin Zayed so if he had not ignored the Prophet's command and gone to the Army of Usama, then he would be praying salah behind Usama. But that is a different discussion for a different time.

What does this have to do with what I said and how does that save face for your Shia imam that denied that basic fact?  Given that you do not deny it, I am glad that you admit that while the Prophet [saw] was alive, he [saw] appointed Abu Bakr [ra] to lead the Muslims in prayer (when he was ill).  Imagine if the Prophet [saw] had appointed Imam Ali [ra] for the task.  You would have been dancing to a different beat altogether.

Quote
I named Dawah Guy - I called him out several times. Some of his followers responded but he didnt.

Who is Dawah Guy?  I do not remember accepting him as my scholar.

Quote
I have heard of the Al-Mustakillah debates and seen a few videos. Not too impressed.

Glad you were not impressed.  I do not blame you.  After all, the Shia side was exposed and paraded as beyond pathetic, lol! 

Cleaned house on ShiaChat? Somehow I doubt that. What username did you use? I will be sure read up on it.

I have neither agreed nor disagreed that Abu Bakr led the prayers. All I have said is that how did that become a criteria to elect a Caliph?
Title: Re: Our scholars, quiet toward shiasm?
Post by: muslim720 on July 14, 2016, 03:32:42 AM
Cleaned house on ShiaChat? Somehow I doubt that. What username did you use? I will be sure read up on it.

Muslim720!  Read my Fadak debate.  Wallaahi, when I brought Qur'anic verses that dealt with Fadak, they were reacting like they had never read these verses.  Of course they had not!  Since when did our Shia brothers approach Fadak, or anything that divides us, via Qur'an and authentic Sunnah?

Quote
I have neither agreed nor disagreed that Abu Bakr led the prayers. All I have said is that how did that become a criteria to elect a Caliph?

I never said that that became a criteria for Abu Bakr [ra] to be elected the Caliph.  All I said was that he led the Muslims in prayers upon the request of the Prophet [saw] and a Shia imam had the nerve to deny that fact.  That's all!
Title: Re: Our scholars, quiet toward shiasm?
Post by: ShiaMan on July 14, 2016, 04:09:51 AM

Muslim720!  Read my Fadak debate.  Wallaahi, when I brought Qur'anic verses that dealt with Fadak, they were reacting like they had never read these verses.  Of course they had not!  Since when did our Shia brothers approach Fadak, or anything that divides us, via Qur'an and authentic Sunnah?
Will do. Can't wait for the site to be up.


I never said that that became a criteria for Abu Bakr [ra] to be elected the Caliph.  All I said was that he led the Muslims in prayers upon the request of the Prophet [saw] and a Shia imam had the nerve to deny that fact.  That's all!
OK as long as we are in agreement that a person leading a jamah does not make it a criteria for him to become a caliph.
Title: Re: Our scholars, quiet toward shiasm?
Post by: scusemyenglish on July 14, 2016, 03:46:01 PM
When we will see an Ahmed Deedat against shiasme? :__l
Title: Re: Our scholars, quiet toward shiasm?
Post by: muslim720 on July 14, 2016, 04:00:08 PM
OK as long as we are in agreement that a person leading a jamah does not make it a criteria for him to become a caliph.

You seem to have serious issues that cause you to insert meanings and words into people's otherwise clear statements.  I never said that a person leading a jama'ah is someone who is, or is not, qualified to become the Caliph.  To be appointed by the Prophet [saw] is another matter and if Imam Ali [ra] was appointed as the imam (to lead the jama'ah), Shias would have been using that piece of history to hand him the Caliphate based on that merit.

The only reason why I brought up that bit regarding Abu Bakr [ra] was to show you that I have talked with Shias, including imams, at Shia mosques.  I have witnessed everything; good discussions, lies, even downright denial of historical facts (like denying the fact that the Prophet [saw], during his lifetime, appointing Abu Bakr [ra] to lead the Muslims in prayer).
Title: Re: Our scholars, quiet toward shiasm?
Post by: ShiaMan on July 14, 2016, 07:04:31 PM

You seem to have serious issues that cause you to insert meanings and words into people's otherwise clear statements.  I never said that a person leading a jama'ah is someone who is, or is not, qualified to become the Caliph.  To be appointed by the Prophet [saw] is another matter and if Imam Ali [ra] was appointed as the imam (to lead the jama'ah), Shias would have been using that piece of history to hand him the Caliphate based on that merit.

The only reason why I brought up that bit regarding Abu Bakr [ra] was to show you that I have talked with Shias, including imams, at Shia mosques.  I have witnessed everything; good discussions, lies, even downright denial of historical facts (like denying the fact that the Prophet [saw], during his lifetime, appointing Abu Bakr [ra] to lead the Muslims in prayer).
Sure, lots of people know a lot about a lot, but then again lots of people don't know a lot about a lot. Neither you, nor I nor anyone on this forum will claim to know everything.

So when you said that the Prophet (saw) asked Caliph Abu Bakr to lead the pray, it was just stating a fact and had no relevance to anything one way or another.

I have this problem that I need to understand why things are being said.
Title: Re: Our scholars, quiet toward shiasm?
Post by: Bolani Muslim on July 17, 2016, 12:52:04 AM
Sure, lots of people know a lot about a lot, but then again lots of people don't know a lot about a lot. Neither you, nor I nor anyone on this forum will claim to know everything. FYI Writing a lot (that is useless BTW) doesn't make you look smart

So when you said that the Prophet (saw) asked Caliph Abu Bakr to lead the pray, it was just stating a fact and had no relevance to anything one way or another.

I have this problem that I need to understand why things are being said.
Shias quote indirect evidence such as Ghadeer Khumm and Sleeping in the bed incident that Imam Ali (as) should've been the leader. He has done the same with Imam Abu Bakr (as) leading the prayer.
Title: Re: Our scholars, quiet toward shiasm?
Post by: Rationalist on July 17, 2016, 05:37:51 AM
12er Shiaism survives by antagonizing Ahle Sunnah. The more a 12er Shia mosque attacks Ahle Sunnah by using tactical taqiyyah methods the more khumms they receive from the Dozeners. Whereas as Sunnis they don't really have much of 12er Shia problem in local neighborhoods. Its just online where the fights start. However, upfront 12ers are good with taqiyyah where they can disguise their hatred against Sunnis very well.
Title: Re: Our scholars, quiet toward shiasm?
Post by: learning boy on July 17, 2016, 06:47:59 AM
12er Shiaism survives by antagonizing Ahle Sunnah. The more a 12er Shia mosque attacks Ahle Sunnah by using tactical taqiyyah methods the more khumms they receive from the Dozeners. Whereas as Sunnis they don't really have much of 12er Shia problem in local neighborhoods. Its just online where the fights start. However, upfront 12ers are good with taqiyyah where they can disguise their hatred against Sunnis very well.

This sounds like a james bond movie. More please?

Whereas as Sunnis they don't really have much of 12er Shia problem in local neighborhoods.

For shia's like me, of course, the sunnis are great here!!

For shia's like people in Iraq, ehh I don't think they'd agree. ( think kaboom )
Title: Re: Our scholars, quiet toward shiasm?
Post by: Rationalist on July 17, 2016, 11:15:56 PM


This sounds like a james bond movie. More please?
Listen to the moderates such as Rajabali and Nakshawani. They blame it all on Umar and the Sunnis. When Yassir Habib does it bluntly he is supposedly an agent, but those who do it under taqiyyah are not?




For shia's like me, of course, the sunnis are great here!!
Yah because you don't speak openly about how you feel about the 3. Instead you focus on other topics.


Quote
For shia's like people in Iraq, ehh I don't think they'd agree. ( think kaboom )
Iraqis thought getting rid of Saddam and bringing a Shia government was a solution. However, the same shia government is looting their own people.
Title: Re: Our scholars, quiet toward shiasm?
Post by: muslim720 on July 18, 2016, 12:35:14 PM
Sure, lots of people know a lot about a lot, but then again lots of people don't know a lot about a lot. Neither you, nor I nor anyone on this forum will claim to know everything.

But you know a lot except what you know holds more nuisance value than beneficial information.  What you will pass on to your children, for example, will be stories that will lead them to develop hatred because the Shia paradigm is almost completely empty of mercy, love and salvation.

Quote
So when you said that the Prophet (saw) asked Caliph Abu Bakr to lead the pray, it was just stating a fact and had no relevance to anything one way or another.

As said previously, if Imam Ali [ra] would have been the recipient of this merit, you would have been dancing to a different beat.

Quote
I have this problem that I need to understand why things are being said.

Your problems do not end there.
Title: Re: Our scholars, quiet toward shiasm?
Post by: ShiaMan on July 18, 2016, 06:55:41 PM
Sure, lots of people know a lot about a lot, but then again lots of people don't know a lot about a lot. Neither you, nor I nor anyone on this forum will claim to know everything. FYI Writing a lot (that is useless BTW) doesn't make you look smart

So when you said that the Prophet (saw) asked Caliph Abu Bakr to lead the pray, it was just stating a fact and had no relevance to anything one way or another.

I have this problem that I need to understand why things are being said.
Shias quote indirect evidence such as Ghadeer Khumm and Sleeping in the bed incident that Imam Ali (as) should've been the leader. He has done the same with Imam Abu Bakr (as) leading the prayer.
Brother - i wasnt trying to look/act smart. I was just letting muslim720 know that he shouldnt be surprised if someone doesnt know something.

12er Shiaism survives by antagonizing Ahle Sunnah. The more a 12er Shia mosque attacks Ahle Sunnah by using tactical taqiyyah methods the more khumms they receive from the Dozeners. Whereas as Sunnis they don't really have much of 12er Shia problem in local neighborhoods. Its just online where the fights start. However, upfront 12ers are good with taqiyyah where they can disguise their hatred against Sunnis very well.
The Paranoia is strong is this one. Let me guess, you too believe that shias are persecuting sunnis across the world, right?

Listen to the moderates such as Rajabali and Nakshawani. They blame it all on Umar and the Sunnis. When Yassir Habib does it bluntly he is supposedly an agent, but those who do it under taqiyyah are not?
What Rajabali and Nakshawani do is relate facts (as they see it) while taking all emotion out of it. What Yassir Al-Habib does the opposite - a lot of emotion without facts. Therein lies the difference.

Iraqis thought getting rid of Saddam and bringing a Shia government was a solution. However, the same shia government is looting their own people.
No argument from me.

But you know a lot except what you know holds more nuisance value than beneficial information.  What you will pass on to your children, for example, will be stories that will lead them to develop hatred because the Shia paradigm is almost completely empty of mercy, love and salvation.
It is funny that you mention shia hatred on a site that is meant to degrade and insult the shia.

I am amazed at how paranoid you are. As an example of shia hatred, while salafis and wahabis were chopping people, and burning them in Mosul and Fallujah and other places, Sistani opened the city of Najaf to host all refugees regardless of their faith INCLUDING Sunnis. If/When you find a mass Sunni grave in Najaf or Karbala, then we can discuss shia hate.
Move over to Pakistan, shias are taken of buses, and shot dead point blank.

I am truly serious when I say that you need to be on medication because this paranoia will lead you to hurting yourself or others.


As said previously, if Imam Ali [ra] would have been the recipient of this merit, you would have been dancing to a different beat.
Imam Ali has plenty of merits and more than the merits of all other sahaba combined that I dance too.

Your problems do not end there.
:P
Title: Re: Our scholars, quiet toward shiasm?
Post by: Rationalist on July 19, 2016, 03:15:00 AM

The Paranoia is strong is this one. Let me guess, you too believe that shias are persecuting sunnis across the world, right?

Its not a paranoia. Shaykh Saduq has a hadith where he says use Taqiyyah to cover up the hatred in your sect.



What Rajabali and Nakshawani do is relate facts (as they see it) while taking all emotion out of it. What Yassir Al-Habib does the opposite - a lot of emotion without facts. Therein lies the difference.
How is it different? Yassir Habib blames Umar for the killing of the Shia, and so do both Rajabali and Naskawani. One does it via taqiyyah and one does not.

Title: Re: Our scholars, quiet toward shiasm?
Post by: ShiaMan on July 19, 2016, 08:51:23 PM
Its not a paranoia. Shaykh Saduq has a hadith where he says use Taqiyyah to cover up the hatred in your sect.
yes it is true - our taqiyyah is so strong that we chose to let thousands upon thousands of shia die and not retaliate lest our hatred be found.


How is it different? Yassir Habib blames Umar for the killing of the Shia, and so do both Rajabali and Naskawani. One does it via taqiyyah and one does not.
Yasir Al-Habib: Umar is the worst person in the world ever because he did XYZ. May he end in hell, etc, etc, etc.
Rajabali/Naskawani: Based on this book, it says Caliph Umar did XYZ.

You dont see the difference???
Title: Re: Our scholars, quiet toward shiasm?
Post by: Rationalist on July 19, 2016, 10:36:57 PM
Yasir Al-Habib: Umar is the worst person in the world ever because he did XYZ. May he end in hell, etc, etc, etc.
Rajabali/Naskawani: Based on this book, it says Caliph Umar did XYZ.

You dont see the difference???


You think Yassir Habib doesn't provide references? He provides more references than the other two. Again this doesn't mean I think they are authentic, but he does provide references from the 12er Shia books.
As for me not seeing the difference let me show you how the other two attacked Umar in blaming him for today's problems.

Here is Rajabali quote from a reference-
The Prophet (pbuh) told Fatima she will leave the world after her. They were jealous of her, and due to their jealously they unleashed a venom against and her hit her. Today they are killing our Shia only because we love Ahlul Bayt.
So please tell me how that is a  proper reference.

Here is Nakshawani- I wish I can take the name of the person (umar) who is the root of all cause for what ISIS is doing today.
Title: Re: Our scholars, quiet toward shiasm?
Post by: ShiaMan on July 20, 2016, 10:45:13 PM
Here is Rajabali quote from a reference-
The Prophet (pbuh) told Fatima she will leave the world after her. They were jealous of her, and due to their jealously they unleashed a venom against and her hit her. Today they are killing our Shia only because we love Ahlul Bayt.
So please tell me how that is a  proper reference.

So that I get it - Rajabali said the people were jealous of Fatima because the Prophet said she would die after him??? That doesnt even make sense.



Here is Nakshawani- I wish I can take the name of the person (umar) who is the root of all cause for what ISIS is doing today.
Conjecture.
Title: Re: Our scholars, quiet toward shiasm?
Post by: Rationalist on July 21, 2016, 12:59:27 AM
Its not a paranoia. Shaykh Saduq has a hadith where he says use Taqiyyah to cover up the hatred in your sect.
yes it is true - our taqiyyah is so strong that we chose to let thousands upon thousands of shia die and not retaliate lest our hatred be found.
You share a similar history to our  Jewish Brothers in this regard.



So that I get it - Rajabali said the people were jealous of Fatima because the Prophet said she would die after him??? That doesnt even make sense.
[/quote]
I think he basically said they (the 2nd and co) were jealous of her, and so they supposedly killed her. Do you want to see the video?


Quote
yes it is true - our taqiyyah is so strong that we chose to let thousands upon thousands of shia die and not retaliate lest our hatred be found.
The 12ers share a very similar history to our Jewish brothers.
Title: Re: Our scholars, quiet toward shiasm?
Post by: Abu Jasim Al-Salafi on July 21, 2016, 01:05:51 AM

Look up Dawah Guy. I called him out several times but no response. Guy was a joke.


When did you call him out and you called him out for a debate about what exactly?
Title: Re: Our scholars, quiet toward shiasm?
Post by: muslim720 on July 21, 2016, 03:26:43 AM
It is funny that you mention shia hatred on a site that is meant to degrade and insult the shia.

A madhhab that encourages insults should only be dealt with in that very manner.  Please stop making yourself out to be the victim when elsewhere you write inflammatory remarks such as, "Haven't heard from you in a while.  I thought you blew yourself up."  To parallel what you have said, it would be like someone saying to you (after a little absence on your part) that he thought you were out "mutah p!mp!ng" (hence your absence).

Quote
I am amazed at how paranoid you are. As an example of shia hatred, while salafis and wahabis were chopping people, and burning them in Mosul and Fallujah and other places, Sistani opened the city of Najaf to host all refugees regardless of their faith INCLUDING Sunnis. If/When you find a mass Sunni grave in Najaf or Karbala, then we can discuss shia hate.
Move over to Pakistan, shias are taken of buses, and shot dead point blank.

What does this have to do with me?  Kilis, a town in Turkey, was up for receiving the Nobel Peace Prize for housing more than 100,000 refugees from Syria alone so much so that Syrians outnumber Turks (in that town).  Turks did not selectively admit Sunnis while denying Shias the same privilege.  So, what was your point again?

Quote
I am truly serious when I say that you need to be on medication because this paranoia will lead you to hurting yourself or others.

When your tactic to make me out a Wahabi failed, now you are out to diagnose me with paranoia to the point of insanity.  You are one hell of a clown who knows that talk is cheap and extremely convenient when done from behind a computer screen.

Quote
Imam Ali has plenty of merits and more than the merits of all other sahaba combined that I dance too.

For one, it is good to know that you dance.  Two, we proudly narrated his merits in full and without any editing.  And dare I say this; if not for us, some of his merits - the same that you dance to - would have been something you would have been oblivious to.
Title: Re: Our scholars, quiet toward shiasm?
Post by: ShiaMan on July 21, 2016, 06:50:18 PM
When did you call him out and you called him out for a debate about what exactly?
He did a video about Imam Hussain and how it was his fault and tried to absolve Yazid of his crimes. This was a few months ago.

A madhhab that encourages insults should only be dealt with in that very manner.  Please stop making yourself out to be the victim when elsewhere you write inflammatory remarks such as, "Haven't heard from you in a while.  I thought you blew yourself up."  To parallel what you have said, it would be like someone saying to you (after a little absence on your part) that he thought you were out "mutah p!mp!ng" (hence your absence).
You must have missed the post where the user "Imam Ali" said he takes pleasure when shias are massacred (something to this effect). I also missed your condemnation of him for that post.

What does this have to do with me?  Kilis, a town in Turkey, was up for receiving the Nobel Peace Prize for housing more than 100,000 refugees from Syria alone so much so that Syrians outnumber Turks (in that town).  Turks did not selectively admit Sunnis while denying Shias the same privilege.  So, what was your point again?
You said, "Shia paradigm is almost completely empty of mercy, love and salvation." so I was merely letting you know that facts dictate otherwise.

When your tactic to make me out a Wahabi failed, now you are out to diagnose me with paranoia to the point of insanity.  You are one hell of a clown who knows that talk is cheap and extremely convenient when done from behind a computer screen.
"talk is cheap and extremely convenient when done from behind a computer screen" - that same can be said of pretty everyone on this forum.
When you claim sunnis are massacred at the same scale as shias, I dont know what else to call it.

For one, it is good to know that you dance.  Two, we proudly narrated his merits in full and without any editing.  And dare I say this; if not for us, some of his merits - the same that you dance to - would have been something you would have been oblivious to.
For example...
Title: Re: Our scholars, quiet toward shiasm?
Post by: muslim720 on July 22, 2016, 11:58:42 AM
You must have missed the post where the user "Imam Ali" said he takes pleasure when shias are massacred (something to this effect). I also missed your condemnation of him for that post.

If he said that, I am ashamed of it.  It is one thing to disagree with each other, it is another to do takfeer and harm one another when we are all Muslims (even if we consider the other to be misguided).

Quote
You said, "Shia paradigm is almost completely empty of mercy, love and salvation." so I was merely letting you know that facts dictate otherwise.

I said "Shia paradigm", not Shias.  The closest thing to love I have heard in Shia mosques wreaks of Christian tendencies when it is repeated (from pulpits) that "Imam Hussain is love" or "Imam Ali is the prince of believers".  Now we have a trend of referring to Fatima [ra] as "Lady Fatima".  That day is not far when we will make lords, dukes and barons out of Ahlul Bayt [ra].

Quote
When you claim sunnis are massacred at the same scale as shias, I dont know what else to call it.

I said those exact words?  That Sunnis are massacred at the same scale (or rate) as Shias?  Really?

Quote
For example...

Nearly all of them - minus all the exaggerated and fabricated reports found in your books - are courtesy of Ahlus Sunnah wal Jama'ah.  You are welcome!
Title: Re: Our scholars, quiet toward shiasm?
Post by: Abu Jasim Al-Salafi on July 22, 2016, 09:35:42 PM
Honestly I think they have no intention to invested this field...

I think if they don't refute them in detail there is neccesary a reason.

At the beginning I thougt it's because they are not aware of new techologie but obviously it's not that.

My view it's like we say.

" Scholars they see fitna before its appears, But jahyl, ignorants they see fitna many years after its appearance"

I think may be they see fitna in this field. Because like they are the best of our community may be they consider if they invest personnaly this field that can do more harm than good

For example you can see this question asked by one man to Cheyk El Albani about Abou Hourayra. And is answer is particulary short as if he didn't want to elaborate.



It's just today with all I have read about Abou Hirr that I understood the words of El Albani because adith from Abou Hourayra are clearly against the shia creed about infaillibility etc...

I think they are animated by the fact that the truth can't be introduced with the same way for every one.

We have 2 hadith from Ibn Massoud and Ali (may be from AIcha also) saying sometime it's better to not talk about everythink for don't caused troubles.

So unfortunely I think we will be alone for longtime :--p

Yes it is true as the scholar said, "Abu Huraira broke our (as in Shias) backs." We believe that it is impossible to see Allah but Abu Huraira told us otherwise:

Abu Haraira reported:
The people said to the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ): Messenger of Allah, shall we see our Lord on the Day of Resurrection? The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said: Do you feel any trouble in seeing the moon on the night when it is full? They said: Messenger of Allah, no. He (the Messenger) further said: Do you feel any trouble in seeing the sun, when there is no cloud over it? They said: Messenger of Allah. no. He (the Holy Prophet) said: Verily you would see Him like this (as you see the sun and the moon)....
Sahih Muslim
Book 1, Hadith 358

So, do you ever wonder what Allah looks like?

So did Imam Abu Abdullah (A.S), who explicitly says that Allah will be seen in the hereafter!

فانه حدثني أبي عن عبد الرحمان بن أبي نجران عن عاصم بن حميد عن أبي عبد الله عليه السلام قال:
ما من عمل حسن يعمله العبد إلا وله ثواب في القرآن إلا صلاة الليل
فإن الله لم يبين ثوابها لعظم خطرها عنده فقال
( تَتَجَافَى جُنُوبُهُمْ عَنِ الْمَضَاجِعِ يَدْعُونَ رَبَّهُمْ خَوْفاً وَطَمَعاً وَمِمَّا رَزَقْنَاهُمْ يُنْفِقُونَ – إلى قوله - يعملون )
روى القمي هذه الرواية
« فإذا اجتمعوا تجلى لهم الرب تبارك وتعالى فإذا نظروا إليه – أي إلى رحمته - خروا سجدا».

Al-Qumi narrated in his tafsir that Abu Abdullah (A.S) explained the verse {They arise from [their] beds; they supplicate their Lord in fear and aspiration, and from what We have provided them, they spend. And no soul knows what has been hidden for them of comfort for eyes as reward for what they used to do.} [Holy Qur'an 32:16-17] by saying:

'If they got together, Allah appeared to them, and when they see Him they'll bow before Him.'
Title: Re: Our scholars, quiet toward shiasm?
Post by: scusemyenglish on July 22, 2016, 09:45:35 PM
I m particullary curious to know the opinion of Farid and Hani about this subjet .
Title: Re: Our scholars, quiet toward shiasm?
Post by: ShiaMan on July 27, 2016, 12:38:47 AM
I said "Shia paradigm", not Shias.  The closest thing to love I have heard in Shia mosques wreaks of Christian tendencies when it is repeated (from pulpits) that "Imam Hussain is love" or "Imam Ali is the prince of believers".  Now we have a trend of referring to Fatima [ra] as "Lady Fatima".  That day is not far when we will make lords, dukes and barons out of Ahlul Bayt [ra].
What is wrong with Lady Fatima when referring to her specially when talking with someone outside of Islam.
The Prophet started this trend when he referred to Hassan and Hussain as the Chiefs of the Youths of Paradise.
Title: Re: Our scholars, quiet toward shiasm?
Post by: muslim720 on July 27, 2016, 12:25:34 PM
What is wrong with Lady Fatima when referring to her specially when talking with someone outside of Islam.

What is right with it?

Quote
The Prophet started this trend when he referred to Hassan and Hussain as the Chiefs of the Youths of Paradise.

By the way of extrapolation, you want us to go from something the Prophet [saw] said to something he did not.  "Chiefs of the Youths of Paradise" is what he said (regarding Hassanain - may Allah's peace be upon them); ladyship, however, he did not preach.
Title: Re: Our scholars, quiet toward shiasm?
Post by: ShiaMan on July 29, 2016, 11:27:38 PM
What is wrong with Lady Fatima when referring to her specially when talking with someone outside of Islam.
What is right with it?
In a lot of muslim books, people write "peace be upon him" after Prophet. Do you have any issues with that?
Similarly, Lady Fatima is used because Bibi or Hazrat wont make sense to them.
Such a non-issue

By the way of extrapolation, you want us to go from something the Prophet [saw] said to something he did not.  "Chiefs of the Youths of Paradise" is what he said (regarding Hassanain - may Allah's peace be upon them); ladyship, however, he did not preach.
Can we agree that henceforth we will simply refer to Hasnain as Chiefs.
Title: Re: Our scholars, quiet toward shiasm?
Post by: Abu Jasim Al-Salafi on July 30, 2016, 08:12:53 PM
ShiaMan, you still haven't responded to this narration from Abu Abdullah (A.S):

فانه حدثني أبي عن عبد الرحمان بن أبي نجران عن عاصم بن حميد عن أبي عبد الله عليه السلام قال:
ما من عمل حسن يعمله العبد إلا وله ثواب في القرآن إلا صلاة الليل
فإن الله لم يبين ثوابها لعظم خطرها عنده فقال
( تَتَجَافَى جُنُوبُهُمْ عَنِ الْمَضَاجِعِ يَدْعُونَ رَبَّهُمْ خَوْفاً وَطَمَعاً وَمِمَّا رَزَقْنَاهُمْ يُنْفِقُونَ – إلى قوله - يعملون )
روى القمي هذه الرواية
« فإذا اجتمعوا تجلى لهم الرب تبارك وتعالى فإذا نظروا إليه – أي إلى رحمته - خروا سجدا».

Al-Qumi narrated in his tafsir that Abu Abdullah (A.S) explained the verse {They arise from [their] beds; they supplicate their Lord in fear and aspiration, and from what We have provided them, they spend. And no soul knows what has been hidden for them of comfort for eyes as reward for what they used to do.} [Holy Qur'an 32:16-17] by saying:

'If they got together, Allah appeared to them, and when they see Him they'll bow before Him.'
Title: Re: Our scholars, quiet toward shiasm?
Post by: ShiaMan on August 01, 2016, 08:21:25 PM
ShiaMan, you still haven't responded to this narration from Abu Abdullah (A.S):

فانه حدثني أبي عن عبد الرحمان بن أبي نجران عن عاصم بن حميد عن أبي عبد الله عليه السلام قال:
ما من عمل حسن يعمله العبد إلا وله ثواب في القرآن إلا صلاة الليل
فإن الله لم يبين ثوابها لعظم خطرها عنده فقال
( تَتَجَافَى جُنُوبُهُمْ عَنِ الْمَضَاجِعِ يَدْعُونَ رَبَّهُمْ خَوْفاً وَطَمَعاً وَمِمَّا رَزَقْنَاهُمْ يُنْفِقُونَ – إلى قوله - يعملون )
روى القمي هذه الرواية
« فإذا اجتمعوا تجلى لهم الرب تبارك وتعالى فإذا نظروا إليه – أي إلى رحمته - خروا سجدا».

Al-Qumi narrated in his tafsir that Abu Abdullah (A.S) explained the verse {They arise from [their] beds; they supplicate their Lord in fear and aspiration, and from what We have provided them, they spend. And no soul knows what has been hidden for them of comfort for eyes as reward for what they used to do.} [Holy Qur'an 32:16-17] by saying:

'If they got together, Allah appeared to them, and when they see Him they'll bow before Him.'
sorry what response are you looking for?
Title: Re: Our scholars, quiet toward shiasm?
Post by: Abu Jasim Al-Salafi on August 01, 2016, 09:04:17 PM
ShiaMan, you still haven't responded to this narration from Abu Abdullah (A.S):

فانه حدثني أبي عن عبد الرحمان بن أبي نجران عن عاصم بن حميد عن أبي عبد الله عليه السلام قال:
ما من عمل حسن يعمله العبد إلا وله ثواب في القرآن إلا صلاة الليل
فإن الله لم يبين ثوابها لعظم خطرها عنده فقال
( تَتَجَافَى جُنُوبُهُمْ عَنِ الْمَضَاجِعِ يَدْعُونَ رَبَّهُمْ خَوْفاً وَطَمَعاً وَمِمَّا رَزَقْنَاهُمْ يُنْفِقُونَ – إلى قوله - يعملون )
روى القمي هذه الرواية
« فإذا اجتمعوا تجلى لهم الرب تبارك وتعالى فإذا نظروا إليه – أي إلى رحمته - خروا سجدا».

Al-Qumi narrated in his tafsir that Abu Abdullah (A.S) explained the verse {They arise from [their] beds; they supplicate their Lord in fear and aspiration, and from what We have provided them, they spend. And no soul knows what has been hidden for them of comfort for eyes as reward for what they used to do.} [Holy Qur'an 32:16-17] by saying:

'If they got together, Allah appeared to them, and when they see Him they'll bow before Him.'
sorry what response are you looking for?

Allah can be seen in the hereafter, and it was proven from the books of the Shi'a.

Now what's really important ShiaMan is for you to respond to the claims I brought up in the debate, did you forget we were having a debate or what?
Title: Re: Our scholars, quiet toward shiasm?
Post by: al-Habib on August 01, 2016, 09:47:02 PM
He'll probably just reject the narration.  Nothing in the rafidi books is ever a hujjah upon them because they accept and reject narrations according to heir feelings and without respect to any scientific methodology.
Title: Re: Our scholars, quiet toward shiasm?
Post by: ShiaMan on August 02, 2016, 06:16:11 PM
Allah can be seen in the hereafter, and it was proven from the books of the Shi'a.
https://www.al-islam.org/inquiries-about-shia-islam-sayyid-moustafa-al-qazwini/seeing-allah-ruyat-allah (https://www.al-islam.org/inquiries-about-shia-islam-sayyid-moustafa-al-qazwini/seeing-allah-ruyat-allah)

Now what's really important ShiaMan is for you to respond to the claims I brought up in the debate, did you forget we were having a debate or what?
Please go to that debate and highlight your expectation on response times. No timing of response was mentioned nor accepted. You claimed you were going to be too busy to respond timely. What's the rush?

He'll probably just reject the narration.  Nothing in the rafidi books is ever a hujjah upon them because they accept and reject narrations according to heir feelings and without respect to any scientific methodology.
We have a pretty basic methodology. Any hadith that contradicts the Quran is rejected.
Title: Re: Our scholars, quiet toward shiasm?
Post by: Mythbuster1 on August 02, 2016, 06:52:10 PM

We have a pretty basic methodology. Any hadith that contradicts the Quran is rejected.
[/quote]


Forget the Hadiths, start from yourselves shiaman
basically your methodology is to insult/abuse/accuse (choose any 3) what the Quran calls 'mother of believers'..............isn't that contradiction? Shouldn't that be rejected also?