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Prophet (as) marrying his daughter to Kouffar?

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Hani

Prophet (as) marrying his daughter to Kouffar?
« on: December 05, 2014, 04:34:31 PM »
al-Salamu `Aleykum,


Since Tashayyu` is based on excuses I was wondering what their excuse is concerning the Prophet (saw) marryig his daughters to Kuffar?


I'm not talking about `Uthman here, we know that Shia have two excuses when it comes to `Uthman:


A- The modern (baseless) opinion that they were only his adopted daughters (Which still doesn't solve the problem).


B- `Uthman tricked the Prophet (saw) by showing that he was a descent person, in fact so descent he married him two daughters!


I'm actually talking about the pre-Islamic times before prophet-hood as we average Muslims say, he married his daughters to complete Kouffar at that time, question is how does this affect his infallibility seeing as though the Shia adamantly refuse to accept that he (saw) could have NOT been infallible then.



« Last Edit: December 05, 2014, 04:36:37 PM by Hani »
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Husayn

Re: Prophet (as) marrying his daughter to Kouffar?
« Reply #1 on: December 05, 2014, 09:00:21 PM »
The excuse that I used to hear was that they weren't allowed to act on 'ilm al-ghayb, only what people did openly.

It's like asking, "If 'Ali had 'ilm al-ghayb, and knew that ibn Muljim was going to kill him, then why didn't he avoid it? It's it like suicide?". The same answer applies - they can't act on hidden knowledge.

Which begs the question - then what is the point of having hidden knowledge?
إن يتبعون إلا الظن وما تهوى الأنفس

al-kulayni

Re: Prophet (as) marrying his daughter to Kouffar?
« Reply #2 on: December 05, 2014, 11:10:00 PM »
Assalamu Aleykum,

In Al Kafi(r) i think there is a chapter about the permission to marry his daughter to nawassib, isn't it ?

Hani

Re: Prophet (as) marrying his daughter to Kouffar?
« Reply #3 on: December 06, 2014, 11:51:46 AM »
Salam,


@Kulayni,


They weren't Nawasib though, they were complete polytheists.


@Husayn,


Hmmm... I don't think we can apply `Ilm Ghayb to it, Muhammad (saw) didn't need `Ilm Ghayb to know they are Kouffar at that time, since they were openly Mushrikeen who worshiped stones and it is not allowed to marry a Muslim woman to a Mushrik man.


Otherwise by this logic, he could also drink intoxicant and do adultery since he cannot act based on his knowledge that they would be made forbidden in the future.


Your thoughts?
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Hadrami

Re: Prophet (as) marrying his daughter to Kouffar?
« Reply #4 on: December 06, 2014, 01:56:25 PM »
The excuse that I used to hear was that they weren't allowed to act on 'ilm al-ghayb, only what people did openly.

But shia use at-Tahrim as "clear" proof that Aisha ra & hafsa ra were disbelievers. Shia can't use ilm ghayb excuse on that. Why weren't they divorced?

Hani

Re: Prophet (as) marrying his daughter to Kouffar?
« Reply #5 on: December 06, 2014, 04:43:59 PM »
@Hadrami,


That's a side issue for now, I know it opens a lot of questions.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Husayn

Re: Prophet (as) marrying his daughter to Kouffar?
« Reply #6 on: December 07, 2014, 01:30:01 AM »
@ Hani

Aahhh, I misread your question.

Well, now that I think about it, I have no idea how to answer.

The only time I ever heard about Zaynab/Umm Kulthum as a Rafidi was when the point was being made that they were not the Prophet's daughters. It was usually just a passing reference.

And it is common knowledge that the Prophet married them off to plain old Kuffar....

Yeah, I'm guessing the Rafidi response would be something like "Well, Islam wasn't revealed yet, so its not haram.... yet!". But then this would come into conflict with the belief in his ilm al-ghayb and 'isma in all affairs.

Yeah.... I'm starting to get a headache  :-[
إن يتبعون إلا الظن وما تهوى الأنفس

Hani

Re: Prophet (as) marrying his daughter to Kouffar?
« Reply #7 on: December 07, 2014, 08:48:33 AM »
Type this question on ShiaChat and expect a gazillion excuses from people's pockets.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Taha

Re: Prophet (as) marrying his daughter to Kouffar?
« Reply #8 on: December 08, 2014, 02:01:12 AM »
I saw the following hadeeth referenced on Facebook. Is it truly in Al-Kafi?  And is it authentic?

"Abu Abdillah (a.s) said about the marriage of Umm Khulthum: 'That was the vagina that we were forced to give.'" [Al-Kulayni, Al-Kafi, Volume 5, Page 345]

I can't imagine Imam Sadiq (a.s) reducing the status of Umm Khulthum to nothing but a vagina ... It sounds so out of place, but it was referenced by a Shi`a in a Shi`a private group so I'm not sure.

Taha

Re: Prophet (as) marrying his daughter to Kouffar?
« Reply #9 on: December 08, 2014, 02:07:46 AM »
Type this question on ShiaChat and expect a gazillion excuses from people's pockets.

ShiaChat is the worst possible place to learn about Tashayyu`.  Both the membership and the leadership are the most arrogant and thick headed people I have ever encountered.

I could name names but I won't. Suffice it to say that after around a month on that website, I left out of pure frustration. Half the people aren't even Shi`a but are pro-`alid Sunnis (i.e. people that abandon every aspect of Tashayyu` except for Imamah, Taqiyyah and, of course, Mutah).  Most are just sexually frustrated teenagers that are trying to prove their superiority over everyone else.

If you want true Shi`a perspectives, try looking at the classical books such as Kutub al-Arba and Tafseer Al-Qummi. Or ask the Ahl Al-`ilm.

Hadrami

Re: Prophet (as) marrying his daughter to Kouffar?
« Reply #10 on: December 08, 2014, 07:00:45 AM »
If you want true Shi`a perspectives, try looking at the classical books such as Kutub al-Arba and Tafseer Al-Qummi. Or ask the Ahl Al-`ilm.

best to read the book first and then ask, because at least you can find out when they are telling the truth or not. Thats what I dont understand about shia, on one topic they can tell you 100% of what they really believe and on another topic only 50% and next 0% truth. You can never tell they're lying unless you've read some of their books.

Hani

Re: Prophet (as) marrying his daughter to Kouffar?
« Reply #11 on: December 08, 2014, 10:31:52 AM »
I saw the following hadeeth referenced on Facebook. Is it truly in Al-Kafi?  And is it authentic?

"Abu Abdillah (a.s) said about the marriage of Umm Khulthum: 'That was the vagina that we were forced to give.'" [Al-Kulayni, Al-Kafi, Volume 5, Page 345]

I can't imagine Imam Sadiq (a.s) reducing the status of Umm Khulthum to nothing but a vagina ... It sounds so out of place, but it was referenced by a Shi`a in a Shi`a private group so I'm not sure.


I recall this was authentic. Rafidah fabricated it out of hatred for `Umar, they want to make it sound like he basically forced banu Hashim to hand her over, it was more of a raping than a legitimate marriage.


Of course, this is nonsense and a great insult to `Ali and banu Hashim.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Hani

Re: Prophet (as) marrying his daughter to Kouffar?
« Reply #12 on: December 08, 2014, 10:43:37 AM »
Type this question on ShiaChat and expect a gazillion excuses from people's pockets.

ShiaChat is the worst possible place to learn about Tashayyu`.  Both the membership and the leadership are the most arrogant and thick headed people I have ever encountered.

I could name names but I won't. Suffice it to say that after around a month on that website, I left out of pure frustration. Half the people aren't even Shi`a but are pro-`alid Sunnis (i.e. people that abandon every aspect of Tashayyu` except for Imamah, Taqiyyah and, of course, Mutah).  Most are just sexually frustrated teenagers that are trying to prove their superiority over everyone else.

If you want true Shi`a perspectives, try looking at the classical books such as Kutub al-Arba and Tafseer Al-Qummi. Or ask the Ahl Al-`ilm.


All Shia forums Arabic/English are like this, we ask questions there for entertainment only.


As for hardcore Sufi websites, they're gonna be full of irrational deviants, don't visit any website where you feel people lack knowledge and insight.


As for main Shia books we browse them all the time bro, although 80% of them are about Fiqh, I once went through all of al-Kafi and collected every Hadith they attribute to the Prophet (saw):
http://twelvershia.net/2014/06/02/prophetic-narrations-numbers-and-authenticity/

Our friend Farid is going through all of Wasa'il al-Shia now, it's a very big book of many volumes.... If we don't check Shia books how can we discuss with them?
« Last Edit: December 08, 2014, 10:45:41 AM by Hani »
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Optimus Prime

Re: Prophet (as) marrying his daughter to Kouffar?
« Reply #13 on: December 08, 2014, 03:34:35 PM »
Who were they married to?

Zainab (RA) was married to Abu al' Aas ibn al-Rabee (RA).

And, Umm Khulthum (RA) and Raqiuyah (RA) were originally engaged to the sons of Abu Lahab (LA)? Ubtah and Shaibah?

Ebn Hussein

Re: Prophet (as) marrying his daughter to Kouffar?
« Reply #14 on: December 10, 2014, 11:16:22 PM »
I was watching Fadak TV the other day. The moron Al-Khabith basically "replied" to Hani's shubha with the dumbest answer ever (and this is their great hero lol). Basically he said:

Well, yes, me and you would not marry our daughters to a kafir or an homosexual, but me and you also can't marry more than 4 wives. The Prophet (SAWS) could, so that means that there are special rulings for the Prophets and it could have been a test that the Prophet was ordered to marry TWO of his daughters to the homosexual kafir (words of the kafir Khabith) caliph 3Othman (radhiyallahu 3an 3Othmanin), just like Lut was ready to give his daughters to kafir homosexuals.

One verse of the Qur'an destroys Al-Khabith's whole argument, who knows which one  8)
الإمام الشافعي رحمه الله
لم أر أحداً من أهل الأهواء أشهد بالزور من الرافضة! - الخطيب في الكفاية والسوطي.

Imam Al-Shafi3i - may Allah have mercy upon him - said: "I have not seen among the heretics a people more famous for falsehood than the Rafidah." [narrated by Al-Khatib Al-Baghdadi/Al-Kifayah]

Hani

Re: Prophet (as) marrying his daughter to Kouffar?
« Reply #15 on: December 10, 2014, 11:18:34 PM »

One verse of the Qur'an destroys Al-Khabith's whole argument, who knows which one  8)


Do tell brother?


(Great answer btw, should go in my excuses thread)
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Ebn Hussein

Re: Prophet (as) marrying his daughter to Kouffar?
« Reply #16 on: December 11, 2014, 01:20:43 AM »
Well, what this Zindiq is not aware of (or most likely he is, it's just he tries to feed his gullible followers with an answer, for to them any answer is a good answer, they don't use their brains) is that although it is true that the Anbiyah had special rulings for them (like Qiyam being wajib upon the Prophet, or that he could take more than four wives) and that they have to obey what Allah orders them to do, yet:

1. There is no single evidence that in OUR Shari3ah we are allowed to marry non-believing women (except Ahl Al-Kitab).

2. The Shari3a of previous nations are no proof to us (otherwise we would greet our elders etc. by prostrating to them as a form of greeting, like in the time of Yusuf, peace be upon him, or how the Mala'ikah greeted Adam. This is haram in our Shari'ah.

3. Most importantly (and this is the Ayah I am talking about), the Qur'an has EXPLICITELY addressed the Prophet (then us of course), telling him that it is NOT allowed to marry a disbelieving woman:


So Al-Khabith's excuses about the Prophet marrying a Kafirah (Umm Al-Mu'minin as these kafirs claim), or the Prophet giving TWO of his daughters to Othman (who is a kafir acc. to them), or Ali giving his daughter to `Umar, are all void and nonsense, all he is doing is to disregard clear-cut muhkam Ayat and dwell into qiyas!

Sahih International
And do not marry polytheistic women until they believe. And a believing slave woman is better than a polytheist, even though she might please you. And do not marry polytheistic men [to your women] until they believe. And a believing slave is better than a polytheist, even though he might please you. Those invite [you] to the Fire, but Allah invites to Paradise and to forgiveness, by His permission. And He makes clear His verses to the people that perhaps they may remember. 2:221

Besides, Allaht told the Prophet to OPENLY fight the Munafiqs (and not to marry them and take them as close friends!):

Sahih International: O Prophet, strive against the disbelievers and the hypocrites and be harsh upon them. And their refuge is Hell, and wretched is the destination.66:9
« Last Edit: December 11, 2014, 10:30:36 AM by Hani »
الإمام الشافعي رحمه الله
لم أر أحداً من أهل الأهواء أشهد بالزور من الرافضة! - الخطيب في الكفاية والسوطي.

Imam Al-Shafi3i - may Allah have mercy upon him - said: "I have not seen among the heretics a people more famous for falsehood than the Rafidah." [narrated by Al-Khatib Al-Baghdadi/Al-Kifayah]

 

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