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Question for all Shias

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Optimus Prime

Question for all Shias
« on: January 08, 2015, 09:00:33 PM »
My since salutations to you all.

This is really addressed to all Shias, but the ones here on the forum so far, namely Taha and Ameen.

Assuming that you engage in Matam (if you can term it that way), what I'm curiously to know is in advance is there a particular way how you gee yourself up for it? I guess this question also depends on how far you go. Like is it just slapping your chest, slapping your faces or going to what extreme your heart dictates since you echoe all the time the main reason why you flagate yourself is because ofyour imminent love for Hussain (RA).

So, please share your thoughts. Remember, I'm not asking what you do when Muharam comes around, but how you prepare for it. Is it mental, emotional, physical or all three?

On top of that is apart of your flagellate proceedings to curse the esteemed personalities that Sunni Muslims revere?
« Last Edit: January 08, 2015, 09:11:54 PM by Imam Ali »

Ameen

Re: Question for all Shias
« Reply #1 on: January 08, 2015, 10:31:46 PM »
My since salutations to you all.

This is really addressed to all Shias, but the ones here on the forum so far, namely Taha and Ameen.

Assuming that you engage in Matam (if you can term it that way), what I'm curiously to know is in advance is there a particular way how you gee yourself up for it? I guess this question also depends on how far you go. Like is it just slapping your chest, slapping your faces or going to what extreme your heart dictates since you echoe all the time the main reason why you flagate yourself is because ofyour imminent love for Hussain (RA).

So, please share your thoughts. Remember, I'm not asking what you do when Muharam comes around, but how you prepare for it. Is it mental, emotional, physical or all three?

On top of that is apart of your flagellate proceedings to curse the esteemed personalities that Sunni Muslims revere?

A very interesting question you have put forward. I will answer this according to my thought, opinion and point of view, according to my understanding. Matham and or Azadari, this has got nothing to do with Islam or Shiaism. This is not part of the Shia belief and faith (Aqeedah).

During Muharram people (Shias and Sunnis) commemorate/remember the incident of Karabala and the events that took place after it. In every country/nation people have their own way and style to commemorate/remember the Martyrdom of Hazrath Imam Hussain (as) and the events that took place after.

Every community has its own traditions and customs, depending on the country they live in and the nation they belong to. Some people tell and talk about it and others have their own ways of remembrance. People have their emotions and feelings and how they go about expressing their feelings and showing their emotions is down to them.

You have a parent who has just passed away and they have, lets say about six or seven children. Each child will take the loss of their parent differently. They will show the loss through expressing their feelings and showing their emotions. Then how and in what manner the loved one has passed away, what was the nature of them leaving this world also plays a great role on feelings and emotions, expressing and showing loss.

Also the gender plays a very vital role. Boys and men seem to be more calm and patient than girls and women. You also have other communities, countries and nations who cry, beat their heads, chests, faces and or thighs to show the loss of their loved ones and what dramatic effect it has had on the family, friends and the community.

I have seen Jews in such a similar state when they grieve about the loss of their loved one/s through the hands of Palestinian terrorists. I have seen English in a similar state when they grieved about the loss of their loved one/s through terrorist activities by the I.R.A. I can give you many more examples but will definitely put this one forward,

the administration, members, followers and supporters of Sipa e Sahaba and Lashkar e Jangavi went in to a similar state when they received the news that the President of Pakistan, General Zia Ul Haq, was killed in August 1988. Ganeral Zia was the founder and supporter of Sipa e Sahaba.

He was the one who founded and funded them heavily. This was in the news, on tv and in the papers, people beating their heads, chests, faces, and thighs, religious scholars along with others pulling their beards in pain and grieve due to the loss of their guide, aid and supporter.

Optimus Prime

Re: Question for all Shias
« Reply #2 on: January 08, 2015, 10:35:23 PM »
I wasn't interested in the history behind it or how certain cultures will go about things or even who introduced this trend.

I want you to answer for yourself.

Ameen

Re: Question for all Shias
« Reply #3 on: January 08, 2015, 10:46:25 PM »
I wasn't interested in the history behind it or how certain cultures will go about things or even who introduced this trend.

I want you to answer for yourself.

I just gave you an absolute and complete break down of it based on reality and facts. This along with many other things is used against the Shias to paint a bad picture about them. But any way,

I take part in processions/gatherings where you have Sunnis as well as Shias. Some stand still and show sadness, since it is a sad day/s, some cry and some show their feelings and emotions through Azadari and or Matham. Anything else you would like to know, then please do not hesitate to ask.

Get to know by asking rather than accusing and abusing. Just a general statement!

Optimus Prime

Re: Question for all Shias
« Reply #4 on: January 08, 2015, 10:56:56 PM »
I wasn't interested in the history behind it or how certain cultures will go about things or even who introduced this trend.

I want you to answer for yourself.

I just gave you an absolute and complete break down of it based on reality and facts. This along with many other things is used against the Shias to paint a bad picture about them. But any way,

I take part in processions/gatherings where you have Sunnis as well as Shias. Some stand still and show sadness, since it is a sad day/s, some cry and some show their feelings and emotions through Azadari and or Matham. Anything else you would like to know, then please do not hesitate to ask.

Get to know by asking rather than accusing and abusing. Just a general statement!

No that breakdown wasn't answering the question which, is how you personally go about preparing for such events. It was of a feeble attempt to mellow the reasoning behind why you self-indulge in such undertakings by drawing comparison with other religions and cultures. Generic stuff, I've read way too often.

Only in your second post was it about you because you started your two paragraphs with "I". So, you confirm you do take part in such events, great. Now we're getting somewhere.

How do you prepare for it? Do you sit in a Majlis listening to a khutbas about Karbala and how the killings happened to get you more emotional? Will you read a book? Or will even consider flying out to Karbala to really reach new emotional heights?

I read it's required to get your emotional levels beyond controllable parameters only then can you withstand and bear the pain you'll be inflicting upon yourselves for the best part of an entire month.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2015, 11:00:18 PM by Imam Ali »

Hani

Re: Question for all Shias
« Reply #5 on: January 08, 2015, 11:11:33 PM »
Try to be polite, it's a personal question so it's up to him to answer you or not.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Optimus Prime

Re: Question for all Shias
« Reply #6 on: January 09, 2015, 02:13:11 AM »
Try to be polite, it's a personal question so it's up to him to answer you or not.

Hani, you're right. However, one should either not answer the question if they consider it too personal or answer the question correctly and accordingly. He didn't and hasn't fully.

Taha

Re: Question for all Shias
« Reply #7 on: January 09, 2015, 06:45:20 AM »
Salaams.


I don't prepare for it.  That, to me, would take away from the raw emotional and spiritual value.  When one is at the husseiniyya and hears the tragedies being recited, one can't help but weep profusely. 


I hit my chest and sometimes my head with my hands during matam.


I have a few times used a belt to whip myself, but that wasn't always out of pure intention and never in the mosque or husseiniyya, only at home when I wanted to know what it felt like. 


I hope that helps.  I find that people that choreograph and practice their "mourning" are insincere.  Mourning is supposed to be a spontaneous response to pure tragedy. 

Optimus Prime

Re: Question for all Shias
« Reply #8 on: January 09, 2015, 06:57:20 PM »
Salaams.


I don't prepare for it.  That, to me, would take away from the raw emotional and spiritual value.  When one is at the husseiniyya and hears the tragedies being recited, one can't help but weep profusely. 


I hit my chest and sometimes my head with my hands during matam.


I have a few times used a belt to whip myself, but that wasn't always out of pure intention and never in the mosque or husseiniyya, only at home when I wanted to know what it felt like. 


I hope that helps.  I find that people that choreograph and practice their "mourning" are insincere.  Mourning is supposed to be a spontaneous response to pure tragedy.

Thank you, Taha. Now this is the sort of responses I was hoping for. Direct and to the point - no short-cuts or trying to justify the act itself.

I'd like to ask you in particular if you don't mind:

1) How long do you go on for before you stop?
2) Is there a set schedule that's put in place to indicate when you start and finish?
3) Do you face the heavens and chant "Ya' Hussain"?

If you don't wish to answer these set of questions then I understand, and thanks for the post.

Ameen

Re: Question for all Shias
« Reply #9 on: January 09, 2015, 09:38:23 PM »
I wasn't interested in the history behind it or how certain cultures will go about things or even who introduced this trend.

I want you to answer for yourself.

I just gave you an absolute and complete break down of it based on reality and facts. This along with many other things is used against the Shias to paint a bad picture about them. But any way,

I take part in processions/gatherings where you have Sunnis as well as Shias. Some stand still and show sadness, since it is a sad day/s, some cry and some show their feelings and emotions through Azadari and or Matham. Anything else you would like to know, then please do not hesitate to ask.

Get to know by asking rather than accusing and abusing. Just a general statement!

No that breakdown wasn't answering the question which, is how you personally go about preparing for such events. It was of a feeble attempt to mellow the reasoning behind why you self-indulge in such undertakings by drawing comparison with other religions and cultures. Generic stuff, I've read way too often.

Only in your second post was it about you because you started your two paragraphs with "I". So, you confirm you do take part in such events, great. Now we're getting somewhere.

How do you prepare for it? Do you sit in a Majlis listening to a khutbas about Karbala and how the killings happened to get you more emotional? Will you read a book? Or will even consider flying out to Karbala to really reach new emotional heights?

I read it's required to get your emotional levels beyond controllable parameters only then can you withstand and bear the pain you'll be inflicting upon yourselves for the best part of an entire month.

Your fourth rightly guided Khalif of the Muslims said,

"Question to seek information and awareness, not to catch out and criticise".

This question of yours is often used against Shias. But anyways, we don't prepare for anything. Tell me, how do you prepare to be sad??? To cry??? How do you prepare to commemorate a horrible and terrible incident??? Muharram Majalis are about rememberrence, this is where we also seek knowledge and information.

Taha

Re: Question for all Shias
« Reply #10 on: January 09, 2015, 09:54:13 PM »

Thank you, Taha. Now this is the sort of responses I was hoping for. Direct and to the point - no short-cuts or trying to justify the act itself.

You're welcome bro.  I'll try to answer the following quests as best I can, but please keep in mind that I haven't had a lot of Muharrams so I'm not an expert on how things "should" be done.

[/size]

I'd like to ask you in particular if you don't mind:

1) How long do you go on for before you stop?
2) Is there a set schedule that's put in place to indicate when you start and finish?
3) Do you face the heavens and chant "Ya' Hussain"?

If you don't wish to answer these set of questions then I understand, and thanks for the post.
1) It depends.  If it is in private, whenever I feel like stopping.  If it's in the Husseiniyyah, then whenever everyone else stops.
2) At the Husseiniyyah, yeah but it's not strict.  Like, we start towards the end of the lecture and go for like 30 minutes or whatever until the food is ready. (This sounded way more pathetic than it was meant to.)
3) I chant Ya Hussein, yes, but facing the heavens?  No, I'm either looking at the projector so I can read the words of the latmiyat or looking down.

Optimus Prime

Re: Question for all Shias
« Reply #11 on: January 10, 2015, 02:21:47 AM »
I wasn't interested in the history behind it or how certain cultures will go about things or even who introduced this trend.

I want you to answer for yourself.

I just gave you an absolute and complete break down of it based on reality and facts. This along with many other things is used against the Shias to paint a bad picture about them. But any way,

I take part in processions/gatherings where you have Sunnis as well as Shias. Some stand still and show sadness, since it is a sad day/s, some cry and some show their feelings and emotions through Azadari and or Matham. Anything else you would like to know, then please do not hesitate to ask.

Get to know by asking rather than accusing and abusing. Just a general statement!

No that breakdown wasn't answering the question which, is how you personally go about preparing for such events. It was of a feeble attempt to mellow the reasoning behind why you self-indulge in such undertakings by drawing comparison with other religions and cultures. Generic stuff, I've read way too often.

Only in your second post was it about you because you started your two paragraphs with "I". So, you confirm you do take part in such events, great. Now we're getting somewhere.

How do you prepare for it? Do you sit in a Majlis listening to a khutbas about Karbala and how the killings happened to get you more emotional? Will you read a book? Or will even consider flying out to Karbala to really reach new emotional heights?

I read it's required to get your emotional levels beyond controllable parameters only then can you withstand and bear the pain you'll be inflicting upon yourselves for the best part of an entire month.

Your fourth rightly guided Khalif of the Muslims said,

"Question to seek information and awareness, not to catch out and criticise".

This question of yours is often used against Shias. But anyways, we don't prepare for anything. Tell me, how do you prepare to be sad??? To cry??? How do you prepare to commemorate a horrible and terrible incident??? Muharram Majalis are about rememberrence, this is where we also seek knowledge and information.

If Ali (RA) was alive today and observed the way some of you guys go about performing he'd definitely lay down some criticism. I believed he did that anyway with your great ancestors from Kufa, but that's entirely a different discussion altogether.

Either address and answer the questions accordingly like your brother Taha or don't take part in this thread.

Since it's an annual occasion for you guys, I thought there would be some form of planning involved hence the idea of this thread. Muharam Majalisis is also about stirring your emotions, so it gets that sentimental adrenaline rushing in your system before the physical stage starts. Is this a fair statement, Taha?

Ameen

Re: Question for all Shias
« Reply #12 on: January 10, 2015, 02:33:26 AM »
I wasn't interested in the history behind it or how certain cultures will go about things or even who introduced this trend.

I want you to answer for yourself.

I just gave you an absolute and complete break down of it based on reality and facts. This along with many other things is used against the Shias to paint a bad picture about them. But any way,

I take part in processions/gatherings where you have Sunnis as well as Shias. Some stand still and show sadness, since it is a sad day/s, some cry and some show their feelings and emotions through Azadari and or Matham. Anything else you would like to know, then please do not hesitate to ask.

Get to know by asking rather than accusing and abusing. Just a general statement!

No that breakdown wasn't answering the question which, is how you personally go about preparing for such events. It was of a feeble attempt to mellow the reasoning behind why you self-indulge in such undertakings by drawing comparison with other religions and cultures. Generic stuff, I've read way too often.

Only in your second post was it about you because you started your two paragraphs with "I". So, you confirm you do take part in such events, great. Now we're getting somewhere.

How do you prepare for it? Do you sit in a Majlis listening to a khutbas about Karbala and how the killings happened to get you more emotional? Will you read a book? Or will even consider flying out to Karbala to really reach new emotional heights?

I read it's required to get your emotional levels beyond controllable parameters only then can you withstand and bear the pain you'll be inflicting upon yourselves for the best part of an entire month.

Your fourth rightly guided Khalif of the Muslims said,

"Question to seek information and awareness, not to catch out and criticise".

This question of yours is often used against Shias. But anyways, we don't prepare for anything. Tell me, how do you prepare to be sad??? To cry??? How do you prepare to commemorate a horrible and terrible incident??? Muharram Majalis are about rememberrence, this is where we also seek knowledge and information.

If Ali (RA) was alive today and observed the way some of you guys go about performing he'd definitely lay down some criticism. I believed he did that anyway with your great ancestors from Kufa, but that's entirely a different discussion altogether.

Either address and answer the questions accordingly like your brother Taha or don't take part in this thread.

Since it's an annual occasion for you guys, I thought there would be some form of planning involved hence the idea of this thread. Muharam Majalisis is also about stirring your emotions, so it gets that sentimental adrenaline rushing in your system before the physical stage starts. Is this a fair statement, Taha?

You are what you say and we are what you say??? Sorry to burst your bubble but please don't force your opinion on us about us. This is exactly how weird you sound. We are what you say we are???! I've addressed the matter clearly for you. Now it seems to me that you want to stick to your opinion about us. You haven't been to a majlis, all you do is follow gossip and rumours then, base your opinion on that. It's an annual occasion for the Muslims, Shias and Sunnis. But for the Takfiries and Kharijies, i guess Muharram has always been a problem.What you are and which sect you belong to definitely surprises me. If Ali (as) was alive today, bla, bla,bla, etc, etc, etc, since when did you become a spokes person for Ali (as) that you know what he would say and what not???

Optimus Prime

Re: Question for all Shias
« Reply #13 on: January 10, 2015, 02:38:18 AM »
I wasn't interested in the history behind it or how certain cultures will go about things or even who introduced this trend.

I want you to answer for yourself.

I just gave you an absolute and complete break down of it based on reality and facts. This along with many other things is used against the Shias to paint a bad picture about them. But any way,

I take part in processions/gatherings where you have Sunnis as well as Shias. Some stand still and show sadness, since it is a sad day/s, some cry and some show their feelings and emotions through Azadari and or Matham. Anything else you would like to know, then please do not hesitate to ask.

Get to know by asking rather than accusing and abusing. Just a general statement!

No that breakdown wasn't answering the question which, is how you personally go about preparing for such events. It was of a feeble attempt to mellow the reasoning behind why you self-indulge in such undertakings by drawing comparison with other religions and cultures. Generic stuff, I've read way too often.

Only in your second post was it about you because you started your two paragraphs with "I". So, you confirm you do take part in such events, great. Now we're getting somewhere.

How do you prepare for it? Do you sit in a Majlis listening to a khutbas about Karbala and how the killings happened to get you more emotional? Will you read a book? Or will even consider flying out to Karbala to really reach new emotional heights?

I read it's required to get your emotional levels beyond controllable parameters only then can you withstand and bear the pain you'll be inflicting upon yourselves for the best part of an entire month.

Your fourth rightly guided Khalif of the Muslims said,

"Question to seek information and awareness, not to catch out and criticise".

This question of yours is often used against Shias. But anyways, we don't prepare for anything. Tell me, how do you prepare to be sad??? To cry??? How do you prepare to commemorate a horrible and terrible incident??? Muharram Majalis are about rememberrence, this is where we also seek knowledge and information.

If Ali (RA) was alive today and observed the way some of you guys go about performing he'd definitely lay down some criticism. I believed he did that anyway with your great ancestors from Kufa, but that's entirely a different discussion altogether.

Either address and answer the questions accordingly like your brother Taha or don't take part in this thread.

Since it's an annual occasion for you guys, I thought there would be some form of planning involved hence the idea of this thread. Muharam Majalisis is also about stirring your emotions, so it gets that sentimental adrenaline rushing in your system before the physical stage starts. Is this a fair statement, Taha?

You are what you say and we are what you say??? Sorry to burst your bubble but please don't force your opinion on us about us. This is exactly how weird you sound. We are what you say we are???! I've addressed the matter clearly for you. Now it seems to me that you want to stick to your opinion about us. You haven't been to a majlis, all you do is follow gossip and rumours then, base your opinion on that. It's an annual occasion for the Muslims, Shias and Sunnis. But for the Takfiries and Kharijies, i guess Muharram has always been a problem.What you are and which sect you belong to definitely surprises me. If Ali (as) was alive today, bla, bla,bla, etc, etc, etc, since when did you become a spokes person for Ali (as) that you know what he would say and what not???

I think my last post quite plain. So, unless you're going to answer the questions in the opening post in full, I think it's high time you gave brother Ebn Hussein more of your attention.

muslim720

Re: Question for all Shias
« Reply #14 on: July 22, 2015, 03:49:42 AM »
1) How long do you go on for before you stop?
2) Is there a set schedule that's put in place to indicate when you start and finish?
3) Do you face the heavens and chant "Ya' Hussain"?

As someone who attends Shia mosques during Muharram, allow me to chime in.  Those who doubt that I do so can ask and I will upload videos that I captured two years ago in Islamic Education Center (Shia mosque) in Maryland, USA.

1)  Usually, they start with lectures.  Then, some brother comes on stage and starts reciting some poetry.  This is followed by dimming of the lights and brothers getting into rows.  The chest slapping starts.  Then, the brothers get into two groups and it is almost a competition between the two groups as to which group recites (whatever poetry they chant while chest-slapping) the loudest and hits the hardest.  Since they recite poetry in a singing fashion, they alternate the rhythm.  They go slow and then fast and then back down to the original rhythm.  The slapping goes on for about 20 - 30 minutes.

2)  Not a set schedule but sometime after salatul 'Isha and the lecture, people are asked to stand up.  Once the lights are dimmed, it is pretty much understood that it is time for matam.

3)  No.  As mentioned previously, when brothers stand in rows, they face each other, not the qibla.  And when they split into two groups (at least that is what they do in IEC), they form two circles.  At another Shia mosque, which is not as extreme as IEC, they do a very simple matam where everyone starts the chest-slapping while sitting in a circle.  After some mild chest-slapping, they stand up and continue the procession.  Facing qibla is not a condition.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2015, 03:51:31 AM by muslim720 »
"Our coward ran from those in authority" - Iceman (admitting the truth regarding his 12th Imam)

muslim720

Re: Question for all Shias
« Reply #15 on: July 22, 2015, 02:51:43 PM »
Salaams.

When one is at the husseiniyya and hears the tragedies being recited, one can't help but weep profusely. 


Mourning is supposed to be a spontaneous response to pure tragedy. 

Walaykum as salaam wa rahmatullah,
I, wholeheartedly, agree with those two statements.  But I cannot weep mostly because of the details that defy logic.  For example, one time they were mentioning how a relative of Imam Hussain [ra] (don't remember the name) went to get water.  On the way back, he was martyred because archers rained arrows on him :(

The brother explaining all this was giving explicit details of what this man - may Allah be pleased with him and grant him highest level of Jannah - was thinking and saying to himself.  If he was martyred while he was alone, before he could make it back to the camp of Imam Hussain [ra], who captured, or recorded, his thoughts and last words?
"Our coward ran from those in authority" - Iceman (admitting the truth regarding his 12th Imam)

Bolani Muslim

Re: Question for all Shias
« Reply #16 on: July 22, 2015, 10:35:24 PM »
I, wholeheartedly, agree with those two statements.  But I cannot weep mostly because of the details that defy logic. 
So true, some things I was taught as a child were "When Ali Asghar was killed and the blood was on Imam Hussain (as) hand, the earth said 'don't throw the blood on the ground or else nothing else will ever grow' the sky said 'don't throw the blood in the sky or else it will never rain', so Imam Hussain (as) had to put Ali Asghar's blood in his beard." Another was "If not for a direct order from Allah, then Imam Hussain (as) would've killed the entire army of Yazid".
BTW, You're story's about Abul Fazl ;)

muslim720

Re: Question for all Shias
« Reply #17 on: July 24, 2015, 01:11:15 AM »
So true, some things I was taught as a child were "When Ali Asghar was killed and the blood was on Imam Hussain (as) hand, the earth said 'don't throw the blood on the ground or else nothing else will ever grow' the sky said 'don't throw the blood in the sky or else it will never rain', so Imam Hussain (as) had to put Ali Asghar's blood in his beard."

Never heard this before.

Quote
Another was "If not for a direct order from Allah, then Imam Hussain (as) would've killed the entire army of Yazid".

Well then, if Allah [swt] Willed it then His Will was done.  If anything, Shias should celebrate that Allah's [swt] Will was carried out.  They accuse - and this is the new trend I am noticing since last year - certain Muslims of celebrating Ashura.  In other words, they claim that there are certain Muslims who celebrate the fact that Imam Hussain [ra] was killed. 

I remember as a kid living in New Delhi when all our neighbors would commemorate Ashura.  In fact, our Sunni neighbors would beat our Shia neighbors to "khatm e Qur'an" and distributing "nazr".

Quote
BTW, You're story's about Abul Fazl

YES, Abal Fadhl [ra].
"Our coward ran from those in authority" - Iceman (admitting the truth regarding his 12th Imam)

 

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