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I can't Lead Prayer+Haramis are Damned to Hell

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Bolani Muslim

I can't Lead Prayer+Haramis are Damned to Hell
« on: April 19, 2016, 10:10:46 PM »
Salaam guyz, it's been a while! So I made a friend recently and I found out that he's born from zina. I got curious because I was taught that they can't become alims, lead prayers, etc as a Shia. So, I did some checking online and read this from Sunni and Shia perspectives and found it quite funny from a religion that encourages mutah. While we believe every human is born pure, Shias believe that illegitimate people will go to hell.

Sunni:
For this reason, it is authentically related that `A’ishah said regarding the child born of adultery: “He shares in nothing of the sin of his parents, for Allah says ‘no soul shall bear the burden of another’.” [Musannaf `Abd al-Razzâq (13860,13861) and Musannaf Ibn `Abî Shaybah (12543)]
http://en.islamtoday.net/node/1729
Being born out of wedlock does not prevent a man from leading people in prayer.
http://www.islamweb.net/emainpage/index.php?page=showfatwa&Option=FatwaId&Id=192241

Shia:
Grading: Muwaththaq by Majlisi
mam Baqir said: There is nothing good in the child of fornication, not in his skin, nor in his hair, nor in his flesh, nor in his blood, nor in any other part of him. After all (the child of fornication) was not allowed on the ark (of Prophet Nuh) even though the dog and pig were allowed to board it.

Grading: Hasan according to Majlisi

Imam Ali said: No one of you should offer salat behind those who have leprosy, those who have vitiligo, the insane, those who have been punished with the Hadd, those born of adultery, and the Bedouin Arabs do not lead the Muhajiroon.”

Grading: Hasan according to Majlisi

Imam Ali said: No one of you should offer salat behind those who have leprosy, those who have vitiligo, the insane, those who have been punished with the Hadd, those born of adultery, and the Bedouin Arabs do not lead the Muhajiroon.”
I have vitiligo
http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235012664-illegitimate-children-and-heaven/?page=4

Their were a boatload of other related 'Hadith Sharif' about illegitimate children and and racism in Tashayuu. I'm genuinely suprised how any sane non-racist person can be a Shia! Maybe they're right, Allah (swt) gave me vitiligo to show the world that I'll leave the path of 'Ahl Bayt' when I grow up  :o

I should tell this news to my mom as she loves my friend and thinks of him as her 'son' and that the 'Imams' hate me for being born with a skin condition :/

Farid

Re: I can't Lead Prayer+Haramis are Damned to Hell
« Reply #1 on: April 19, 2016, 10:12:22 PM »
Mashallah. Two thumbs up.

Sheikh

Re: I can't Lead Prayer+Haramis are Damned to Hell
« Reply #2 on: April 20, 2016, 01:04:55 AM »
Yeh, I was told that a child of adultery can never be a Shia since they will never have the love of Ahlul Bait in their hearts.

I love Ahlul Bait but hamdellah not a Shia (anymore)  :D

Bolani Muslim

Re: I can't Lead Prayer+Haramis are Damned to Hell
« Reply #3 on: April 20, 2016, 01:38:18 AM »
I finished the thread (great read) and as usual no one came to 'save the day'. Either they were accepted by the minority of devout Shia, or ignored by the rest because it goes against 'Quran and logic'. Their were lots more worse 'hadith sharif' (read the thread), but these comments stood out to me the most:
Quote
Unfortunately, we are actually bigger problems than that (leading the prayer, maria etc, even thought that also is a big problem)  when it comes to Walad al zina. We actually have a good number of hadiths that say that Walad al zina will never enter Paradise. I think it is quite problematic. You do not think that as many Salafists (Sunnis)will make use of those traditions? What about atheists when reading these hadiths? In fact, these traditions can lead  non muslim to  convert to Sunni Islam, because they see that Sunni Islam is for everyone. The fact that classical scholars discussing this back and forth, is actually quite disturbing. When one reads the Holy Quran, then there is nothing to suggest that Walad al zina can not enter paradise
What will this Shia do now? He has a grudge against Sunnis (can't blame him), yet can't believe the sayings of his own religion and agrees with Sunni beliefs on this matter.

Quote
Well I was born illegitmately(my parents conceived me when they were young american highschool kids and only one was muslim) and have recently began following shia islam over sunni islam in which i was raised. Now, if the above is true,which I know in my heart is not true, then I will either begin following another school of thought that doesn't still embody ignorant discriminations or I will just go do whatever I want since according to that I'm hellbound regardless of what I do. Btw, the concept of predestination is one of the reasons that I stopped being a sunni. It was my knowledge that shia islam has a balanced view on predestination and freewill, and an illegitimate born person being hellbound is something that contradicts that.

Same guy, different threadI was born illegitimate and have come to accept shia islam over sunni islam in which I was raised. So apparently someone of illegitimate birth can be a lover of ahlul bayt. If I didn't love ahlul bayt then I could have continued to be a sunni and saved myself a HEAP of trouble that I know I'm going to have to endure once I inform my family and community about it-believe me. Either those hadiths are fabricated or this school of thought is not legitimate. If I find that it's the latter then I will have to find a new school of thought to follow because I would never go back to ahlus sunnah but I can aslo never follow something that encourages discrimination.
I hope he's not an Atheist or something now.

I continued reading Akim's old threads again and honestly Shiaism seems more like a culture then an actual religion. This guy comments on a debate thread where the commenters including him conclude using their own logic that calling to others besides Allah (swt) is shirk (the BIGGEST sin), yet it's not taken seriously :/ (again, no one to save the day and prove the obvious truth of Usooli tawasul). Seems like I'm forgetting what it's like to be Shia  ;D
« Last Edit: April 20, 2016, 01:40:03 AM by Bolani Muslim »

Solomon

Re: I can't Lead Prayer+Haramis are Damned to Hell
« Reply #4 on: April 20, 2016, 05:47:59 AM »
Salaam guyz, it's been a while! So I made a friend recently and I found out that he's born from zina. I got curious because I was taught that they can't become alims, lead prayers, etc as a Shia.
salam,
Islam encourages the leader or representative of islamic society must be less questionable so that most of the people  should accept him willingly without showing reluctance. That's why  people for whom immoral question can be raised should refrain themselves from such positions for the sake of God.


  While we believe every human is born pure, Shias believe that illegitimate people will go to hell.

No that is not shia belief.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2016, 05:51:55 AM by Solomon »
"O Apostle! Deliver what has been sent down to you from your Lord; and if you don't do it, you have not delivered His message (at all); and Allah will protect you from the people ..." (Qur'an 5:67)
Messenger of Allah said:
"For whoever I am his mawla, 'Ali is his mawla."

Farid

Re: I can't Lead Prayer+Haramis are Damned to Hell
« Reply #5 on: April 20, 2016, 02:54:18 PM »
^ How about addressing the narrations, brother?

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Re: I can't Lead Prayer+Haramis are Damned to Hell
« Reply #6 on: April 20, 2016, 03:56:43 PM »
Shocking and Funny
در خلافت میل نیست ای بی‌خبر
میل کی آید ز بوبکر و عمر
میل اگر بودی در آن دو مقتدا
هر دو کردندی پسر را پیشوا

عطار نِیشابوری

www.Nahjul-Balagha.net | www.TwelverShia.net | www.ghadirkhumm.com

Solomon

Re: I can't Lead Prayer+Haramis are Damned to Hell
« Reply #7 on: April 20, 2016, 06:10:54 PM »
^ How about addressing the narrations, brother?
You must be knowing that just by one narration or few, conclusion should not made about that issue brother but many narration depends to whom Prophet/imam is saying and situation & condition in which narration is said must not be disregarded.As for 1st narration i have commented & as far as narration regarding illegitimate child there are other narration which talks otherwise regarding same issue.
Wssalam
"O Apostle! Deliver what has been sent down to you from your Lord; and if you don't do it, you have not delivered His message (at all); and Allah will protect you from the people ..." (Qur'an 5:67)
Messenger of Allah said:
"For whoever I am his mawla, 'Ali is his mawla."

Farid

Re: I can't Lead Prayer+Haramis are Damned to Hell
« Reply #8 on: April 20, 2016, 06:14:47 PM »
So those narrations are weak?

Can you please provide the opposing narrations?

Solomon

Re: I can't Lead Prayer+Haramis are Damned to Hell
« Reply #9 on: April 20, 2016, 07:56:25 PM »
^
أَبَانٌ عَنِ ابْنِ أَبِي يَعْفُورٍ قَالَ قَالَ أَبُو عَبْدِ اللَّهِ ع إِنَّ وَلَدَ الزِّنَا يُسْتَعْمَلُ إِنْ عَمِلَ خَيْراً جُزِئَ بِهِ وَ إِنْ عَمِلَ شَرّاً جُزِئَ بِه‏

Narrated Aban from Ibn Abi Yafoor who said, Abu Abdillah (as) said, "If the illegitimate is performs deeds. If he does good deeds, he will be rewarded for it. And if he does bad deeds he will get return for that."

one of the narration is copy-pasted above and as you asked about the whether it is weak or strong,so before judging that one must have done research in field of rijal & i am not anyone  who have done research in that field.so as for every one i too will refrain from commenting about degree of strength of any narration.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2016, 08:00:10 PM by Solomon »
"O Apostle! Deliver what has been sent down to you from your Lord; and if you don't do it, you have not delivered His message (at all); and Allah will protect you from the people ..." (Qur'an 5:67)
Messenger of Allah said:
"For whoever I am his mawla, 'Ali is his mawla."

Hani

Re: I can't Lead Prayer+Haramis are Damned to Hell
« Reply #10 on: April 20, 2016, 08:08:18 PM »
I don't know why anyone hasn't brought this up yet, but an excellent analysis of the position and status of Walad az-Zina (the child of fornication) among Shi'ites has been provided by Etan Kohlberg in his paper, The Position of the "walad zinā" in Imāmī Shī'ism.

It can be accessed on JSTOR (you have to create an account for it, but it's free to do so) at the following link: http://www.jstor.org/stable/617543

There is such a wealth of material in there that it is hard to summarize it. But nevertheless here are some of the positions of your Imams and scholars on this issue:

The child from fornication is the offspring of Satan

أبي (ره) قال حدثني محمد بن يحيى العطار عن أحمد بن محمد عن ابن فضال عن عبيد بن زرارة عن عبد الله بن اعين قال سمعت أبا جعفر عليه السلام يقول: إذا زنى الرجل ادخل الشيطان ذكره فعملا جميعا وكانت النطفة منهما وخلق منهما وخلق منها الولد ويكون شرك الشيطان.

Shaykh Saduq, Thawab al A’maal, page 263 http://www.yasoob.co.../10/no1002.html

Also in Mahasin of al-Barqi, page 107 http://www.yasoob.co.../09/no0972.html

Imam Baqir said: When a man fornicates, Satan enters the man and they act in union. And the sperm (that results from this act) is from the two of them (the man and Satan), and the creation (of the baby) is from the two of them, and the child that is created from it (fornication), Satan is a partner in it.

The child from fornication is worse than dogs and pigs

محمد بن يحيى، عن أحمد بن محمد، عن ابن فضال، عن ابن بكير، عن زرارة بن أعين، عن أبي جعفر (عليه السلام) قال: سمعته يقول: لا خير في ولد الزنا ولا في بشره ولا في شعره ولا في لحمه ولا في دمه ولا في شئ منه عجزت عنه السفينة وقد حمل فيها الكلب والخنزير.

al-Kafi, Vol 5, page 355 http://www.yasoob.co.../09/no0983.html

Grading: Muwaththaq by Majlisi

Also in:

Shaykh Saduq, Thawab al A’maal, page 264 http://www.yasoob.co.../10/no1002.html

Also in Mahasin of al-Barqi, page 108 http://www.yasoob.co.../09/no0972.html

Imam Baqir said: There is nothing good in the child of fornication, not in his skin, nor in his hair, nor in his flesh, nor in his blood, nor in any other part of him. After all (the child of fornication) was not allowed on the ark (of Prophet Nuh) even though the dog and pig were allowed to board it.

Shareef Murtada quotes a variation of this hadith from the Prophet in his Intisar, page 367, and says that this freeing of a slave who is walad zina does NOT count as kaffarah for your sins since the Qur’an says in verse 267 of Surah Baqarah, “and seek not the bad (with intent) to spend thereof (in charity)”, and the term khabeeth (used in the verse) is applicable to walad zina, and hence freeing a slave who is walad zina does not count as kaffarah

ومما يظن أن الإمامية انفردت به: القول بأن ولد الزنا لا يعتق في شئ من الكفارات. وقد روى وفاقها عن عبد الله بن عمر وعطاء والشعبي وطاووس (1)، وباقي الفقهاء يخالفون ذلك (2). دليلنا: بعد إجماع الطائفة قوله تعالى: (ولا تيمموا الخبيث منه تنفقون) (3) وولد الزنا يطلق عليه هذا الاسم. وقد رووا عن رسول الله (صلى الله عليه وآله) أنه قال: لا خير في ولد الزنا لا في لحمه ولا في دمه ولا في جلده ولا في عظمه ولا في شعره ولا في بشره ولا في شئ منه

http://www.yasoob.co.../00/no0017.html

Four characteristics of the children of fornication (walad zina)

حدثنا جعفر بن محمد بن مسرور رضي الله عنه قال: حدثنا الحسين بن محمد بن - عامر، عن عمه عبد الله بن عامر، عن محمد بن زياد، عن سيف بن عميرة قال: قال الصادق جعفر بن محمد عليهما السلام: من لم يبال ما قال وما قيل فيه فهو شرك شيطان، ومن لم يبال أن يراه الناس مسيئا فهو شرك الشيطان، ومن اغتاب أخاه المؤمن من غير ترة (1) بينهما فهو

شرك شيطان، ومن شعف بمحبة الحرام وشهوة الزنا فهو شرك شيطان، ثم قال عليه السلام: إن لولد الزنا علامات أحدها بغضنا أهل البيت، وثانيها أنه يحن إلى الحرام الذي خلق منه، وثالثها الاستخفاف بالدين، ورابعها سوء المحضر للناس ولا يسئ محضر إخوانه إلا من ولد على غير فراش أبيه، أو [ من ] حملت به أمه في حيضها

Shaykh Saduq - al-Khisal, page 216 http://www.maaref-fo...khisal/08_1.htm

Imam Jafar said: Children of fornication have definite characteristics: First, they hate us - members of the Household of the Holy Prophet. Second, they long for the illegitimate way in which they themselves were created. Third, they disparage the religion. Fourth, they mistreat the people. They are only welcomed by those who were conceived through their mother having sex with men other than her husband, or whose mothers conceived them in their periods of menstruation.

The testimony of a walad zina cannot be accepted

علي بن إبراهيم، عن محمد بن عيسى، عن يونس، عن أبي أيوب الخزاز، عن محمد بن مسلم قال: قال أبو عبد الله عليه السلام: لا تجوز شهادة ولد الزنى

al-Kafi, Vol 7, page 395 http://www.yasoob.or.../09/no0985.html

Grading: Saheeh according to Majlisi

Imam Ja’far said: The testimony of a walad zina is not allowed.

Shareef Murtada explains in his Intisar, page 501:

شهادة ولد الزنا ---ومما انفردت به الإمامية القول: بأن شهادة ولد الزنا لا تقبل وإن كان على ظاهر العدالة

http://www.yasoob.co.../00/no0017.html

The testimony of a walad zina is not accepted even if he apparently satisfies the conditions of justice (adalah)

محمد بن يحيى، عن محمد بن الحسين، عن ابن فضال، عن إبراهيم بن محمد الاشعري عن عبيد بن زرارة، عن أبيه قال: سمعت أبا جعفر عليه السلام يقول: لو أن أربعة شهدوا عندي على رجل بالزنى وفيهم ولد الزنى لحددتهم جميعا لانه لا تجوز شهادته ولا يؤم الناس

al-Kafi, vol 7, page 396 http://www.yasoob.or.../09/no0985.html

Grading: Muwaththaq according to Majlisi

Imam Baqir said: If there are four persons in front of me giving witness against a man who has committed zina, and among them (the witnesses) is a walad zina, then I would have applied the Hadd (punishment) to all four of them! This is because it is not allowed to accept the testimony of a walad zina, nor is it allowed for a walad zina to be a leader of men.

Shaykh Tusi states in his Nihaya that the testimony of walad zina can be accepted in some cases, specifically those that do not involve the Hadd, given that this walad zina is known for his righteous behavior. But Ibn Idris argues that this is an illogical position since if the walad zina could be just, then why only allow his testimony in certain cases, and not in others. The correct ruling, he says, is that the testimony of a walad zina cannot be accepted under any cases.

Shaykh Hurr al-Amili also confirms this position saying that the other position that allows the testimony of walad zina to be accepted in certain cases is based on a hadith said in taqiyyah.

Later in his life, Shaykh Tusi clarifies his position on the testimony of walad zina. In his Mabsut, vol 7, page 228, he says:

شهادة ولد الزنا إذا كان عدلا مقبولة عند قوم في الزنا وفي غيره، وهو قوي لكن أخبار أصحابنا يدل على أنه لا يقبل شهادته

http://www.yasoob.or.../00/no0039.html

He says that the position that the testimony of walad zina is acceptable in cases of zina and otherwise is a strong (qawi) position, but the narrations of our companions is proof (yadillu) that the testimony (of a walad zina) is not accepted.

Walad zina must be avoided under all circumstances

حدثنا محمد بن علي ماجيلويه رضي الله عنه قال: حدثنا محمد بن يحيى العطار، عن محمد بن أحمد، عن سهل بن زياد، عن محمد بن سنان، عن عبيد الله بن عبد الله الدهقان، عن درست، عن أبي إبراهيم عليه السلام قال: قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله: خمسة يجتنبون على كل حال: المجذوم، والابرص، والمجنون، وولد الزنا، والاعرابي

Shaykh Saduq - al-Khisal, page 287 http://www.maaref-fo...l-khisal/09.htm

Imam Kadhim said: The Prophet said: Five groups of people must be avoided under all circumstances: those who have leprosy; those who have vitiligo; the insane; those born of adultery; and the Bedouin Arabs.”

You cannot pray behind a walad zina

جماعة، عن أحمد بن محمد، عن الحسين بن سعيد عن فضالة بن أيوب، عن الحسين بن عثمان، عن ابن مسكان، عن أبي بصير، عن أبي عبد الله (عليه السلام) قال: خمسة لا يؤمون الناس على كل حال: المجذوم والابرص والمجنون وولد الزنا والاعرابي

al-Kafi, Vol 3, page 375 http://www.yasoob.co.../09/no0981.html

Grading: Saheeh according to Majlisi

Imam Sadiq said: Five groups cannot lead people (in prayers) under any circumstances: those who have leprosy; those who have vitiligo; the insane; those born of adultery; and the Bedouin Arabs.

Shaykh Tusi also quotes this hadith (and the next) with the following header in his Tahdheeb, vol 3, page 26 http://www.yasoob.or.../10/no1017.html

وينبغي أن يكون الامام مبرءا من الجذام والجنون والبرص وسائر العاهات والفسق ولا يكون محدودا، يدل على ذلك

So he is saying that the walad az-Zina is fisq (immorality), and hence he cannot be the leader in prayers

علي بن إبراهيم، عن أبيه، عن حماد، عن حريز، عن زرارة، عن أبي جعفر (عليه السلام) قال: قلت له: الصلاة خلف العبد؟ فقال: لا بأس به إذا كان فقيها ولم يكن هناك أفقه منه، قال: قلت اصلي خلف الاعمى؟ قال: نعم إذا كان له من يسدده وكان

أفضلهم، قال: وقال أمير المؤمنين (عليه السلام): لا يصلين أحدكم خلف المجذوم والابرص والمجنون والمحدود وولد الزنا والاعرابي لا يؤم المهاجرين.

al-Kafi, Vol 3, page 376 http://www.yasoob.co.../09/no0981.html

Grading: Hasan according to Majlisi

Imam Ali said: No one of you should offer salat behind those who have leprosy, those who have vitiligo, the insane, those who have been punished with the Hadd, those born of adultery, and the Bedouin Arabs do not lead the Muhajiroon.”

The sweetness of faith will not enter the heart of a walad zina

حدثنا أبي رضي الله عنه قال: حدثنا أحمد بن إدريس قال: حدثني محمد بن أحمد، عن سهل بن زياد، عن منصور، عن نصر الكوسج، عن مطرف مولى معن عن أبي عبد الله عليه السلام قال: لا يدخل حلاوة الايمان قلب سندي، ولا زنجي، ولا خوزي ولا كردي، ولا بربري، ولا نبك الري، ولا من حملته أمه من الزنا

Shaykh Saduq - al-Khisal, page 352 http://www.maaref-fo...khisal/11_1.htm

“Seven hearts would not taste the sweetness of belief: the Sindi; the Zanji; the Khuzestani; the Kurdish; the Berbers; those who reside in the hills of Ray; and those born of adultery.”

A walad zina is unclean and cannot enter Heaven

وبهذا الاسناد عن محمد بن أحمد عن ابراهيم بن اسحاق عن محمد بن سليمان الديلمي عن أبيه رفع الحديث إلى الصادق (ع) قال: يقول ولد الزنا يا رب ما ذنبي فما كان لي في أمري صنع، قال: فيناديه مناد فيقول: أنت شر الثلاثة أذنب والداك فتبت عليهما وانت رجس ولن يدخل الجنة إلا طاهر

Shaykh Saduq - ‘Ilal ush-Shara’i, page 564 http://www.yasoob.co.../09/no0996.html

Imam Sadiq said: The walad zina would say, “O my Lord, what is my sin? What did I do in my making?”

The caller (from God) would call to him and reply: You are the worst of the three (you and your two parents). Your two parents repented (of their sin of fornication), but YOU are rijs (impure), and none enter Heaven except the pure.

Sharif Muratada confirms this view in his Intisar, page 502

أن طائفتنا مجمعة على أن ولد الزنا لا يكون نجيبا ولا مرضيا عند الله تعالى، ومعنى ذلك أن يكون الله تعالى قد علم فيمن خلق من نطفة زنا أن لا يختار هو الخير والصلاح

http://www.yasoob.co.../00/no0017.html

He says: Our community is united in that the walad zina cannot be highborn, nor can he be pleasing in the sight of Allah. And the meaning of this is that Allah knew (from before) that those created from the sperm of zina will not choose to be good or virtuous.

Milk of Jewish, Christian, or Zoroastrian wet nurse is better than that of walad zina

علي بن إبراهيم، عن أبيه، عن حماد، عن حريز، عن محمد بن مسلم، عن أبي جعفر عليه السلام قال: لبن اليهودية والنصرانية والمجوسية أحب إلي من لبن ولد الزنا و كان لا يرى بأسا بلبن ولد الزنا إذا جعل مولى الجارية الذي فجر بالجارية في حل

al-Kafi, vol 6, page 43 http://www.yasoob.com/books/htm1/m012/09/no0984.html

Grading: Hasan according to Majlisi

Imam Baqir said: The milk of a Jewish, Christian, or Zoroastrian (wet nurse) is preferable to me than the milk of a (wet nurse) who is walad zina.

The money from the sale of a slave-girl who is walad zina is impure

عدة من أصحابنا، عن أحمد بن أبي عبد الله، عن ابن فضال، عن مثنى الحناط عن أبي بصير، عن أبي عبد الله (عليه السلام) قال: قلت له: تكون لي المملوكة من الزنا أحج من ثمنها وأتزوج؟ فقال: لا تحج ولا تتزوج منه

al-Kafi, vol 5, page 226 http://www.yasoob.co.../09/no0983.html

Grading: Hasan or Muwaththaq according to Majlisi

Imam Sadiq was asked is it allowed to sell a slave-girl who is walad zina and use the money obtained therewith for Hajj or for getting married (to pay mahr)?

Imam Sadiq replied: You cannot perform Hajj or get married using that money. (The reasoning being that since the walad zina is impure, the money obtained from her sale is also impure, hence it cannot be used for Hajj or marriage.)

A child of zina hates Imam Ali

حدثنا محمد بن الحسن رحمه الله قال: حدثنا محمد بن الحسن الصفار قال حدثني احمد بن الحسين بن سعيد عن علي بن الحكم عن المفضل بن صالح عن جابر الجعفي، عن إبراهيم القرشي قال: كنا عند أم سلمة رضى الله عنها فقالت سمعت رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله يقول لعلي " ع " لا يبغضكم إلا ثلاثة ولد زنا ومنافق ومن حملت به أمه وهى حائض.

Shaykh Saduq - ‘Ilal ash-Shara’i, page 142 http://www.yasoob.co.../09/no0995.html

The Prophet said to Ali: No one hates you except three. A walad zina, or a hypocrite, or one who was conceived by his mother when she was discharging blood (i..e, menstruating).

حدثني محمد بن المظفر بن نفيس المصري رحمه الله قال: حدثني أبو اسحاق إبراهيم بن محمد بن احمد بن أخي سياب العطار الكوفي رضى الله عنه بالكوفة قال: حدثنا احمد بن الهذيل أبو العباس الهمداني قال: حدثنا أبو نصر الفتح بن قرة السمرقندي قال: حدثنا محمد بن خلف المروزي قال: حدثنا يوسف بن إبراهيم قال: حدثنا ابن لهيعة عن أبى الزبير، عن جابر قال: قال أبو ايوب الانصاري اعرضوا حب علي على أولادكم، فمن احبه فهو منكم، ومن لم يحبه فاسألوا امه من اين جاءت به، فإنى سمعت رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله يقول لعلي بن ابى طالب: لا يحبك إلا مؤمن، ولا يبغضك إلا منافق أو ولد زنية أو حملته أمه وهى طامث.

Shaykh Saduq - ‘Ilal ash-Shara’i, page 145 http://www.yasoob.co.../09/no0995.html

The Prophet said to Ali: No one loves you but a believer. And no one hates you except a hypocrite, or walad zina, or one who was conceived while his mother was menstruating.

الطبري في الولاية باسناده له عن الاصبغ بن نباتة قال علي (ع): لا يحبني ثلاثة، ولد زنا، ومنافق، ورجل حملت به امه في بعض حيضها

Ibn Shahrashub, Manaqib Aal Abi Talib, Vol 3, page 10 http://www.yasoob.co.../12/no1203.html

Imam Ali said: Three people do not love me: a walad zina, a hypocrite, and a man who was conceived by his mother while she was menstruating.

وعنه، عن عبد الله بن ميمون القداح، عن جعفر، عن أبيه قال: " جاء رجل إلى علي عليه السلام فقال: جعلني الله فداك، إني لاحبكم أهل البيت. قال: وكان فيه لين. قال: فأثنى عليه عدة. فقال له: كذبت، ما يحبنا مخنث، ولا ديوث، ولا ولد زنا، ولا من حملت به أمه في حيضها. قال: فذهب الرجل، فلما كان يوم صفين قتل مع معاوية

al-Himyari, Qurb al-Isnad, page 25 http://www.yasoob.co.../09/no0975.html

A man came to Imam Ali and said to him that he loved the Ahlulbayt. Imam Ali replied: You lie! Hermaphrodites do not love us, nor do pimps, nor walad zina, not those who have been conceived while their mother was menstruating.

The man left. He was killed in Siffin while fighting for Mu’awiyah.

حدثنا أبي - رحمه الله - قال: حدثنا سعد بن عبد الله، عن الهيثم بن أبي مسروق عن علي بن أسباط يرفعه إلى أبي عبد الله عليه السلام قال: إن الله تبارك وتعالى يبدء بالنظر إلى زوار قبر الحسين بن علي عليهما عشية عرفة. قال: قلت: قبل نظره إلى أهل الموقف ؟ قال: نعم. قلت: وكيف ذاك ؟ قال: لان في أولئك أولاد زنا وليس في هؤلاء أولاد زنا.

Shaykh Saduq, Ma’ani al-Akhbar, page 391 http://www.yasoob.co.../10/no1006.html

Imam Sadiq said: Allah looks first at the visitors to the grave of Husayn bin Ali on the eve of Arafah.

His companion asked: Even before He looks at the people stopped at Arafah?

Imam Sadiq said: Yes

The companion said: How is this so?

Imam Sadiq replied: It is because for Hajj even the children of zina go, but for the pilgrimage to Imam Husayn’s shrine the children of zina do not go! (Implying that since walad zina cannot love the Ahlulbayt, they do not visit the shrine of Husayn.)

Walad zina are the killers of Prophets and Imams

حدثني ابي رحمه الله، عن سعد بن عبد الله وعبد الله بن جعفر الحميري، عن احمد بن ابي عبد الله البرقي، عن ابيه محمد بن خالد، عن عبد العظيم بن عبد الله بن علي الحسني، عن الحسن بن الحسين العمري، عن الحسين بن شداد الجعفي، عن جابر، عن ابي جعفر (عليه السلام)، قال: قال رسول الله (صلى الله عليه وآله): لا يقتل الانبياء واولاد الانبياء الا ولد زنا

Ibn Quluwayh, Kamil al-Ziyaraat, page 164 http://www.yasoob.co.../09/no0990.html

Prophet Muhammad said: No one kills the Prophets or their progeny except for the children of zina.

وعنه، عن محمد بن الحسين، عن علي بن اسباط، عن اسماعيل بن ابي زياد (2)، عن بعض رجاله، عن ابي عبد الله (عليه السلام) في قول فرعون: (ذروني اقتل موسي) (3)، فقيل له: من كان يمنعه، قال: كان لرشده، لان الانبياء والحجج لا يقتلها الا اولاد زنا والبغايا

Ibn Quluqayh, Kamil al-Ziyaraat, page 163 http://www.yasoob.co.../09/no0990.html

Imam Jafar said: The Prophets and the Hujjahs (the authorities from God) are not killed except by the children of fornication or by fornicatrices.

Walad Zina is impure and seven generations of the man whose dowry was not halal are impure

عدة من أصحابنا، عن أحمد بن أبي عبد الله، عن أبيه، عن أبي الجهم، عن أبي خديجة قال: سمعت أبا عبد الله (عليه السلام) يقول: لا يطيب ولد الزنا ولا يطيب ثمنه أبدا والممراز لا يطيب إلى سبعة آباء وقيل له: وأي شئ الممراز؟ فقال: (2) الرجل يكتسب مالا من غير حله فيتزوج به (3) أو يتسرى به فيولد له فذاك الولد هو الممراز

al-Kafi, Vol 5, page 225 http://www.yasoob.or.../09/no0983.html

Imam Jafar said: A child of fornication is impure, and the price of selling a slave who is a child of fornication can never be purified. As for the mimzaar, he is not pure for seven generations.

The Imam was asked: What is a mimzaar?

He replied: A man acquires wealth from non-halal sources and weds by it; the child born out of this is the mimzaar.

If a man marries a female walad zina, he should not have children by her

محمد بن يحيى، عن أحمد بن محمد، وعدة من أصحابنا، عن سهل بن زياد، عن الحسن بن محبوب، عن عبد الله بن سنان قال: قلت لابي عبد الله (عليه السلام): ولد الزنا ينكح؟ قال: نعم ولا يطلب ولدها

al-Kafi, vol 5, page 353 http://www.yasoob.or.../09/no0983.html

Grading: Saheeh according to Majlisi

Imam Sadiq was asked: Can we marry (in Nikah) a walad zina?

He replied: Yes. But don’t have children by her.

It is preferred that a man not have intercourse with his slave-girl who is walad zina

علي بن إبراهيم، عن أبيه، عن محمد بن أبي عمير، عن حماد، عن الحلبي، عن أبي عبد الله (عليه السلام) قال: سئل عن الرجل يكون له الخادم ولد زنا عليه جناح أن يطأها؟ قال: لا وإن تنزه عن ذلك فهو أحب إلي.

al-Kafi, vol 5, page 353 http://www.yasoob.or.../09/no0983.html

Grading: Hasan according to Majlisi

Imam Sadiq was asked if it was a sin to have intercourse with a slave who is walad zina. He replied: No, but it is more liked to me that you had avoided it.

Because of the impurity of Walad Zina, the water that he comes in contact with should not be used for wudhu or ghusl

وبهذا الاسناد عن محمد بن يعقوب عن أحمد بن ادريس عن محمد بن أحمد بن يحيى عن ايوب بن نوح عن الوشا عمن ذكره عن ابى عبد الله عليه السلام انه كره سؤر ولد الزنا واليهودي والنصراني والمشرك وكل ما خالف الاسلام وكان أشد ذلك عنده سؤر الناصب

Shaykh Tusi, at-Tahdheeb, vol 1, page 223 http://www.yasoob.or.../10/no1015.html

Imam Jafar said: It is disliked to use the su’r (body of water used for wudhu/drinking) of the walad zina, the Jews, the Christians, the polytheists, and all who oppose Islam. And the most severely disliked is the su’r of the Nasib.

محمد بن علي بن محبوب عن عدة من أصحابنا عن محمد بن عبد الحميد عن حمزة بن أحمد عن أبي الحسن الاول عليه السلام قال سألته أو سأله غيري عن الحمام قال أدخله بمئزر وغض بصرك ولا تغتسل من البئر التي يجتمع فيها ماء الحمام فانه يسيل فيها ما يغتسل به الجنب وولد الزنا والناصب لنا أهل البيت وهو شرهم.

Shaykh Tusi, at-Tahdheeb, vol 1, page 373 http://www.yasoob.or.../10/no1015.html

Abu Hasan the first (guessing this is Imam Ali) sid: You cannot use a cistern containing water in which the water leaks from a hammam in which the junub (ritually impure) shower, or the walad zina shower, or the enemy of us Ahlulbayt and he is the worst.

That's enough I suppose, though there is a whole lot of extra information in the paper, including the position of the Sunnis on some of these same issues.

**********************

**********************

The problems with the faith and purity of a walad zina isn't something from the long past either that is not relevant now. Almost all your Marji' state that a person who is a walad zina cannot be a mujtahid. For example:

Ayatullah Sistani:

2. Taqlid in religious laws means acting according to the verdict of a Mujtahid. It is necessary for the Mujtahid who is followed, to be male, Shi'ah Ithna Ash'ari, adult, sane, of legitimate birth, living and just ('Adil).

http://www.al-islam....aws/taqlid.html

Ayatullah Khomeini:

1- It is obligatory to follow a mujtahid who is just, living, mature, sane, male, born out of a legitimate marriage and a Twelver Shi‘ite.

http://www.leader.ir...ex.php?catid=47

Ayatullah Fadlallah:

The person who should be followed must be adult, sane, of a legitimate birth, believer, mujtahid - practicing ijtihad is a prerequisite - and just.

http://english.bayyn...awa/ijtihad.htm

Ayatullah Nasir Makarem Shirazi:

Issue 2: It is conditional that the Jurist whom a person follows is a man; mature; sane; Shi'ah Ithna 'Ashari; of pure birth (in that he is not an illegitimate child)

http://www.al-islam....ary-of-rulings/

So why can't a walad zina be a mujtahid? As Ayatullah Jafar Subhani and Ayatullah Nasir Makarem Shirazi explain:

Illegitimate children inherit bad manners, breaking of laws, and sins from their parents. For them the ground for sins and crime is more feasible. As compared to others they are more prepared for sins and if they personally get wrong training or if the environment is not good, then it is enough for them that their polluted soul, like sparks beneath the ash become fire and burn their good fortune.

http://www.al-islam.org/falsafa/19.htm
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Hadrami

Re: I can't Lead Prayer+Haramis are Damned to Hell
« Reply #11 on: April 21, 2016, 12:15:54 AM »
with all those overwhelming proofs, how does this relate to other shia narration which condemn non-12ers as children born from fornication?

Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: I can't Lead Prayer+Haramis are Damned to Hell
« Reply #12 on: April 21, 2016, 12:22:13 AM »

Sunni:
For this reason, it is authentically related that `A’ishah said:

Shia:
Imam Baqir said:
Thank you brother for showing us the difference between the REAL narrations from Ahlelbayt and the FAKE narrations attributed to Ahlelbayt.

Ijtaba

Re: I can't Lead Prayer+ Haramis are Damned to Hell
« Reply #13 on: April 21, 2016, 02:40:35 PM »
وعنه، عن عبد الله بن ميمون القداح، عن جعفر، عن أبيه قال: " جاء رجل إلى علي عليه السلام فقال: جعلني الله فداك، إني لاحبكم أهل البيت. قال: وكان فيه لين. قال: فأثنى عليه عدة. فقال له: كذبت، ما يحبنا مخنث، ولا ديوث، ولا ولد زنا، ولا من حملت به أمه في حيضها. قال: فذهب الرجل، فلما كان يوم صفين قتل مع معاوية

al-Himyari, Qurb al-Isnad, page 25 http://www.yasoob.co.../09/no0975.html

A man came to Imam Ali and said to him that he loved the Ahlulbayt. Imam Ali replied: You lie! Hermaphrodites do not love us, nor do pimps, nor walad zina, not those who have been conceived while their mother was menstruating.

The man left. He was killed in Siffin while fighting for Mu’awiyah.

Salaam.

Looking from the above narration it is my understanding that Hatred of Illegitimates was done on purpose so that those people who were born out-of-wedlock would hate the Imams (a.s) when they would know that according to Imams (a.s) they would go to hell or that they are hated by Imams (a.s). 

It may be also that Imams (a.s) never liked any of their followers to be walad zina.

Hypothetical example: A man born in Shia house.. brought up to love the Imams as normal shia.. later discovers that he is walad zina.. after reading the hadiths of Imams (a.s) in Shia books on walad zina would naturally end up hating Imams (a.s) or leaving them.


Bolani Muslim

Re: I can't Lead Prayer+Haramis are Damned to Hell
« Reply #14 on: April 22, 2016, 07:54:47 PM »
وعنه، عن عبد الله بن ميمون القداح، عن جعفر، عن أبيه قال: " جاء رجل إلى علي عليه السلام فقال: جعلني الله فداك، إني لاحبكم أهل البيت. قال: وكان فيه لين. قال: فأثنى عليه عدة. فقال له: كذبت، ما يحبنا مخنث، ولا ديوث، ولا ولد زنا، ولا من حملت به أمه في حيضها. قال: فذهب الرجل، فلما كان يوم صفين قتل مع معاوية

al-Himyari, Qurb al-Isnad, page 25 http://www.yasoob.co.../09/no0975.html

A man came to Imam Ali and said to him that he loved the Ahlulbayt. Imam Ali replied: You lie! Hermaphrodites do not love us, nor do pimps, nor walad zina, not those who have been conceived while their mother was menstruating.

The man left. He was killed in Siffin while fighting for Mu’awiyah.

Salaam.

Looking from the above narration it is my understanding that Hatred of Illegitimates was done on purpose so that those people who were born out-of-wedlock would hate the Imams (a.s) when they would know that according to Imams (a.s) they would go to hell or that they are hated by Imams (a.s). 

It may be also that Imams (a.s) never liked any of their followers to be walad zina.

Hypothetical example: A man born in Shia house.. brought up to love the Imams as normal shia.. later discovers that he is walad zina.. after reading the hadiths of Imams (a.s) in Shia books on walad zina would naturally end up hating Imams (a.s) or leaving them.
The Shia religion truly is illogical. If Rasulullah (saw) hypothetically said "all non-Arabs are going to hell" (nauzubillah), why would any non-Arab become Muslim? It only makes sense they'd hate the people who damned them to eternal hellfire for something out of their control! Do you even consider yourself a moral person? I can't imagine any sane person with a heart could agree with such BS views like you.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2016, 07:56:19 PM by Bolani Muslim »

Sheikh

Re: I can't Lead Prayer+ Haramis are Damned to Hell
« Reply #15 on: April 23, 2016, 10:21:28 AM »
وعنه، عن عبد الله بن ميمون القداح، عن جعفر، عن أبيه قال: " جاء رجل إلى علي عليه السلام فقال: جعلني الله فداك، إني لاحبكم أهل البيت. قال: وكان فيه لين. قال: فأثنى عليه عدة. فقال له: كذبت، ما يحبنا مخنث، ولا ديوث، ولا ولد زنا، ولا من حملت به أمه في حيضها. قال: فذهب الرجل، فلما كان يوم صفين قتل مع معاوية

al-Himyari, Qurb al-Isnad, page 25 http://www.yasoob.co.../09/no0975.html

A man came to Imam Ali and said to him that he loved the Ahlulbayt. Imam Ali replied: You lie! Hermaphrodites do not love us, nor do pimps, nor walad zina, not those who have been conceived while their mother was menstruating.

The man left. He was killed in Siffin while fighting for Mu’awiyah.

Salaam.

Looking from the above narration it is my understanding that Hatred of Illegitimates was done on purpose so that those people who were born out-of-wedlock would hate the Imams (a.s) when they would know that according to Imams (a.s) they would go to hell or that they are hated by Imams (a.s). 

It may be also that Imams (a.s) never liked any of their followers to be walad zina.

Hypothetical example: A man born in Shia house.. brought up to love the Imams as normal shia.. later discovers that he is walad zina.. after reading the hadiths of Imams (a.s) in Shia books on walad zina would naturally end up hating Imams (a.s) or leaving them.

That makes literally no sense whatsoever. That is equivalent to me saying that I hate black people, and black people will never love me since I say negative things about them. I'm shooting myself in the foot with that one. And I'm not even an infallible Imam.

 

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