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Shia complain why their taqiya is considered lying

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Hani

Re: Shia complain why their taqiya is considered lying
« Reply #40 on: April 10, 2015, 05:05:35 PM »
By the same token, when you -Ameen- criticize `Umar ibn al-Khattab you have to also criticize `Ali ibn abi Talib alongside him, to balance the argument and equalize it.

Where did I criticise Umar Ibne Khattab??? And for what??? Refresh my memory please!

Remember that topic where `Umar punished Mu`awiyah? You implied that `Umar was not being just and fair.

So now I expect you to criticize `Ali's injustice, for fairness and equality.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Hani

Re: Shia complain why their taqiya is considered lying
« Reply #41 on: April 10, 2015, 05:10:40 PM »
What do you mean??? Care to explain yourself???

He means you're a waste of time, and he's right. I would recommend that you stop posting on this forum and simply limit yourself to reading.

Because you're not benefiting anyone, it doesn't seem you're benefiting yourself, nor is your sect even benefiting because you're making them look bad, nor are we benefiting from you since you have no information to contribute.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Khaled

Re: Shia complain why their taqiya is considered lying
« Reply #42 on: April 10, 2015, 05:51:45 PM »
In case Ameen doesn't answer, I found this post on shiachat where we are told how ahadeeth are authenticated according to the Shia.  I know this could've gone in "Funny posts from Shiachat", but I thought it was more appropriate here إن شاء الله:

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235029405-did-rasulallah-say-ya-ali-madad/page-2#entry2792462
Quote
Chain of narrators isn't a way of authenticating hadiths. The way to authenticate hadiths is for example if there are two shia hadiths one hadith is saying it is allowed to recite nade ali and the other is saying it is not allowed to recite then you do opposite to what the non SHIAS do.......so therefore nade ali is wajib to recite because sunnis don't believe in it! SIMPLE.....this is the way to authenticate hadiths according to hadiths of imams (as). Not chain of narrators or ilm Al rijjal absolutely no basis for this way of authenticating.

 You are clearly not on my level so I suggest you read a few more books before you even contemplate discussing with me. To you your way to me my way.

That is very insightful, so whatever mainstream Islam teaches, Shi'as are instructed to do the opposite.

Also, I love that blanketed takfeer in the end of his post.  Muslims, Sunni and Shi'a, should be very careful in using that ayah when discussing with other Muslims; remember that the beginning of the Surah is "Say, 'O you disbelievers.'"  Saying "لكم دينكم ولي دين" is for non-Muslims بارك الله فيكم, not for other Muslims
كلُّ سُلامى من الناس عليه صدقة كلَّ يوم تطلع فيه الشمس، تَعدلُ بين اثنين صدقة، وتعين الرَّجل في دابَّته فتحمله عليها أو ترفع له عليها متاعَه صدقة، والكلمةُ الطيِّبة صدقة، وبكلِّ خطوة تَمشيها إلى الصلاة صدقة، وتُميط الأذى عن الطريق صدقة

Furkan

Re: Shia complain why their taqiya is considered lying
« Reply #43 on: April 10, 2015, 06:03:56 PM »
Lol, that quote made me laugh so much.
Before Qazî Mihemed, President of the first kurdish Republic Mahabad was hanged the iranian judge asked:

“last words?”

Qazî: “I thank Allah: even in death he put my shoes above your heads”

Hani

Re: Shia complain why their taqiya is considered lying
« Reply #44 on: April 10, 2015, 06:31:56 PM »
You're clearly not on his level man, he seems like university professor, you have to read fifty more books before addressing him.


So authenticating a Shia narration requires us to go back to Sunni books and see what they think? That's more to do with reconciling than authenticating but whatever floats his ship of Ahlul-Bayt.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2015, 06:37:32 PM by Hani »
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Furkan

Re: Shia complain why their taqiya is considered lying
« Reply #45 on: April 10, 2015, 06:55:52 PM »
That qoute from SC is based on a shia naration too actually. HAHA, and the funny thing is, those other SC members are laughing at that method of authentication. I geuss, we have some shia who went against nass.
Before Qazî Mihemed, President of the first kurdish Republic Mahabad was hanged the iranian judge asked:

“last words?”

Qazî: “I thank Allah: even in death he put my shoes above your heads”

Khaled

Re: Shia complain why their taqiya is considered lying
« Reply #46 on: April 10, 2015, 07:01:52 PM »
Here's another treasure:

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235029405-did-rasulallah-say-ya-ali-madad/page-2#entry2792726
Quote
Imam Ali (as) said seek knowledge even if it's from the tongue of a kafir because knowledge is the treasure of the believer

 Just because if someone is a kafir doesn't mean whatever he says is wrong, for example if in a wahaabis book it says prophet (saw) said be good to your parents.......there's nothing wrong with the hadith is it?
كلُّ سُلامى من الناس عليه صدقة كلَّ يوم تطلع فيه الشمس، تَعدلُ بين اثنين صدقة، وتعين الرَّجل في دابَّته فتحمله عليها أو ترفع له عليها متاعَه صدقة، والكلمةُ الطيِّبة صدقة، وبكلِّ خطوة تَمشيها إلى الصلاة صدقة، وتُميط الأذى عن الطريق صدقة

Furkan

Re: Shia complain why their taqiya is considered lying
« Reply #47 on: April 10, 2015, 07:06:57 PM »
LOL "for example" --> an example of a kafir?! Shiism has proven it's takfeerism AGAIN!
Before Qazî Mihemed, President of the first kurdish Republic Mahabad was hanged the iranian judge asked:

“last words?”

Qazî: “I thank Allah: even in death he put my shoes above your heads”

Hani

Re: Shia complain why their taqiya is considered lying
« Reply #48 on: April 10, 2015, 07:57:49 PM »
One Shia guy has this written in his profile ((Interests:My lineage is from Imam Sadiq (as)))

Dude! It's been a thousand+ years already, stop boasting about lineage, it means absolutely nothing.

I see they're differing on some poem called "nade ali"

One Shia describes it as "poem of shirk" the other Shia says "it's shirk not to believe in it".

Polar opposites.

Then they discuss whether "Madad" is an Arabic word, let me quote:

"Is "madad" even an Arabic word?"

"i think ``madad`´ is an iranian Word."

"Perhaps it is an farsi word?"

I say, these Shia don't read Qur'an and Hadith to know that it's an Arabic word.

It's in the Qur'an!

يُمْدِدْكُمْ رَبُّكُم بِخَمْسَةِ آلَافٍ مِّنَ الْمَلَائِكَةِ مُسَوِّمِينَ

{your Lord will help(Yumdidkum) you with five thousand angels sweeping on.}

عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Hadrami

Re: Shia complain why their taqiya is considered lying
« Reply #49 on: April 10, 2015, 09:27:21 PM »
One Shia guy has this written in his profile ((Interests:My lineage is from Imam Sadiq (as)))

Dude! It's been a thousand+ years already, stop boasting about lineage, it means absolutely nothing.

I see they're differing on some poem called "nade ali"

One Shia describes it as "poem of shirk" the other Shia says "it's shirk not to believe in it".

Polar opposites.

Then they discuss whether "Madad" is an Arabic word, let me quote:

"Is "madad" even an Arabic word?"

"i think ``madad`´ is an iranian Word."

"Perhaps it is an farsi word?"

I say, these Shia don't read Qur'an and Hadith to know that it's an Arabic word.

It's in the Qur'an!

يُمْدِدْكُمْ رَبُّكُم بِخَمْسَةِ آلَافٍ مِّنَ الْمَلَائِكَةِ مُسَوِّمِينَ

{your Lord will help(Yumdidkum) you with five thousand angels sweeping on.}



The question is: will al-sadiq be proud having him as family? :D

Ameen

Re: Shia complain why their taqiya is considered lying
« Reply #50 on: April 10, 2015, 10:03:15 PM »
Everything that goes against your mind set and planned ideology is weak, false etc. You decide if it is weak and your criteria for weakness and or falsehood??? Well you don't have one. You need to protect Sakeefa, justify Khilafath through what ever and which ever means necessary and certain companions just didn't get anything wrong, even when they were companions and especially when they became Khalifs. But certain companions and members of the Ahlul Baith did get it wrong. Well this just sums you exactly up!

While your mud slinging is far more representative of you, in Ahl as-Sunnah we don't accept narrations based on our ideology; heck our scholars narrated ahadeeth from all kinds of sects, including believe it or not, Shia.  We base our authentication on five condition, بارك الله فيك:

1) A connection chain of narrators.
2) Everyone in the chain is upright (whether they are from a sect or not).
3) Everyone in the chain is considered strong in their memory and relaying of the text.  If they are the hadeeth is considered Saheeh, if they are considered a lower level the scholars would lessed the hadeeth to the status of hassan.
4) It is not Shaath, or an outlier report.  Meaning, we might get 5 reports all saying the same thing and one report saying something different.  Even if that report has an authentic chain, it would be weakened because of this contradiction.
5) That there are not other irregularities that would cause a report to be inauthentic.

Now I ask you brother Ameen, how do your scholars authenticate reports?

I don't mud sling. Who mud slings is clearly seen on this site. So this is how you authenticate hadiths, narrations and reports. So tell me how do you authenticate Ali's daughters marriage to Umar??? Or would you like me to start a separate thread and ask you there???

Umar asked for Ali's daughter in marriage, now this is what brother Hani mentioned;

Ali sent his daughter with Hassan and Hussain to Umar, he teased her playfully and liked her then the marriage took place.

Now tell me how sickening and ridiculous this sounds. Who were more shameful and pardedar, full of hijab o niqab than Ali and his family. What kind of a father would send his daughter for someone to take a good look at her, tease her playfully and then show his likenes???

I ask everyone on this site who have daughters of marriageable age or when they reach that age and those who don't have daughters but have sisters of marriageable age that, would you marry your daughter/sister in such a baghairath and beh'haya way??? Such a shameless way???

Was this a horse, camel or cow that was sent to Umar for him to take a good look at and play with and tease before acceptance??? To try out??? Was Umar a dirty old flirt that this is how he proceeded when he showed interest in marriage???

This narration about how this marriage was conducted is not just an absolute insult to Ali's ghairath but also an absolute insult and stain to Umar's character and personality. I agree with the Ahle Sunnah that I have approached that this narration is ridiculous.

Gentlemen God has given you Aqal for you to use. Use it and use it well.

Ameen

Re: Shia complain why their taqiya is considered lying
« Reply #51 on: April 10, 2015, 10:08:22 PM »
By the same token, when you -Ameen- criticize `Umar ibn al-Khattab you have to also criticize `Ali ibn abi Talib alongside him, to balance the argument and equalize it.

Where did I criticise Umar Ibne Khattab??? And for what??? Refresh my memory please!

Remember that topic where `Umar punished Mu`awiyah? You implied that `Umar was not being just and fair.

So now I expect you to criticize `Ali's injustice, for fairness and equality.

You put something forward and I questioned you about it. Asked you to look in to it or drew your attention towards it. Now you want me to criticise and condemn Ali???? Over what??? Or you want me to do that just out of the blue??? When are where did I criticise Umar??? You mentioned something and I questioned that incident. I do not recall criticising Umar.

Ameen

Re: Shia complain why their taqiya is considered lying
« Reply #52 on: April 10, 2015, 10:13:35 PM »
What do you mean??? Care to explain yourself???

He means you're a waste of time, and he's right. I would recommend that you stop posting on this forum and simply limit yourself to reading.

Because you're not benefiting anyone, it doesn't seem you're benefiting yourself, nor is your sect even benefiting because you're making them look bad, nor are we benefiting from you since you have no information to contribute.

And who are you or anyone else benefitting??? What, slinging mud on Shias, talking rubbish about Shiaism and dragging and accusing Iran in to everything, who is this benefiting and what are you proving???

Khaled

Re: Shia complain why their taqiya is considered lying
« Reply #53 on: April 10, 2015, 11:33:39 PM »
Gentlemen God has given you Aqal for you to use. Use it and use it well.

So you are neither going to respond to the topic nor are you going to reply to what I said?

خير إن شاء الله
سلاما
كلُّ سُلامى من الناس عليه صدقة كلَّ يوم تطلع فيه الشمس، تَعدلُ بين اثنين صدقة، وتعين الرَّجل في دابَّته فتحمله عليها أو ترفع له عليها متاعَه صدقة، والكلمةُ الطيِّبة صدقة، وبكلِّ خطوة تَمشيها إلى الصلاة صدقة، وتُميط الأذى عن الطريق صدقة

Rationalist

Re: Shia complain why their taqiya is considered lying
« Reply #54 on: April 10, 2015, 11:36:06 PM »

The question is: will al-sadiq be proud having him as family? :D
The 12ers curse Imam Jafar's son Abdullah. They also say he can't be an Imam because he had flat feet.

Furkan

Re: Shia complain why their taqiya is considered lying
« Reply #55 on: April 11, 2015, 01:36:15 AM »
Lol ^
Before Qazî Mihemed, President of the first kurdish Republic Mahabad was hanged the iranian judge asked:

“last words?”

Qazî: “I thank Allah: even in death he put my shoes above your heads”

Hani

Re: Shia complain why their taqiya is considered lying
« Reply #56 on: April 11, 2015, 10:33:42 AM »
Ali sent his daughter with Hassan and Hussain to Umar, he teased her playfully and liked her then the marriage took place.

Now tell me how sickening and ridiculous this sounds. Who were more shameful and pardedar, full of hijab o niqab than Ali and his family. What kind of a father would send his daughter for someone to take a good look at her, tease her playfully and then show his likenes???

I ask everyone on this site who have daughters of marriageable age or when they reach that age and those who don't have daughters but have sisters of marriageable age that, would you marry your daughter/sister in such a baghairath and beh'haya way??? Such a shameless way???

They were already married when he did that.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Suleiman

Re: Shia complain why their taqiya is considered lying
« Reply #57 on: April 11, 2015, 10:41:03 AM »
hmmm..

Didn't know Ameen was from Pakistan (or maybe India?)

Optimus Prime

Re: Shia complain why their taqiya is considered lying
« Reply #58 on: April 11, 2015, 01:19:39 PM »
hmmm..

Didn't know Ameen was from Pakistan (or maybe India?)

Yeah, he is. He has the traits of a typical subcontinental Rafidhi.

Optimus Prime

Re: Shia complain why their taqiya is considered lying
« Reply #59 on: April 11, 2015, 01:21:44 PM »
Everything that goes against your mind set and planned ideology is weak, false etc. You decide if it is weak and your criteria for weakness and or falsehood??? Well you don't have one. You need to protect Sakeefa, justify Khilafath through what ever and which ever means necessary and certain companions just didn't get anything wrong, even when they were companions and especially when they became Khalifs. But certain companions and members of the Ahlul Baith did get it wrong. Well this just sums you exactly up!

While your mud slinging is far more representative of you, in Ahl as-Sunnah we don't accept narrations based on our ideology; heck our scholars narrated ahadeeth from all kinds of sects, including believe it or not, Shia.  We base our authentication on five condition, بارك الله فيك:

1) A connection chain of narrators.
2) Everyone in the chain is upright (whether they are from a sect or not).
3) Everyone in the chain is considered strong in their memory and relaying of the text.  If they are the hadeeth is considered Saheeh, if they are considered a lower level the scholars would lessed the hadeeth to the status of hassan.
4) It is not Shaath, or an outlier report.  Meaning, we might get 5 reports all saying the same thing and one report saying something different.  Even if that report has an authentic chain, it would be weakened because of this contradiction.
5) That there are not other irregularities that would cause a report to be inauthentic.

Now I ask you brother Ameen, how do your scholars authenticate reports?

I don't mud sling. Who mud slings is clearly seen on this site. So this is how you authenticate hadiths, narrations and reports. So tell me how do you authenticate Ali's daughters marriage to Umar??? Or would you like me to start a separate thread and ask you there???

Umar asked for Ali's daughter in marriage, now this is what brother Hani mentioned;

Ali sent his daughter with Hassan and Hussain to Umar, he teased her playfully and liked her then the marriage took place.

Now tell me how sickening and ridiculous this sounds. Who were more shameful and pardedar, full of hijab o niqab than Ali and his family. What kind of a father would send his daughter for someone to take a good look at her, tease her playfully and then show his likenes???

I ask everyone on this site who have daughters of marriageable age or when they reach that age and those who don't have daughters but have sisters of marriageable age that, would you marry your daughter/sister in such a baghairath and beh'haya way??? Such a shameless way???

Was this a horse, camel or cow that was sent to Umar for him to take a good look at and play with and tease before acceptance??? To try out??? Was Umar a dirty old flirt that this is how he proceeded when he showed interest in marriage???

This narration about how this marriage was conducted is not just an absolute insult to Ali's ghairath but also an absolute insult and stain to Umar's character and personality. I agree with the Ahle Sunnah that I have approached that this narration is ridiculous.

Gentlemen God has given you Aqal for you to use. Use it and use it well.

Maybe the wives of the Prophet (SAW). ;)

 

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