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Shias before al Baqir

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Abdullah Efendi

Shias before al Baqir
« on: October 15, 2015, 12:21:46 PM »
as-Salam Alaikum.

Came across with shia report, I remember reading it before long time ago.

From Kafi of Kulayni 2/20
وكانت الشيعة قبل أن يكون أبو جعفر وهم لا يعرفون مناسك حجهم وحلالهم وحرامهم حتى كان أبو جعفر ففتح لهم وبين لهم مناسك حجهم وحلالهم وحرامهم حتى صار الناس يحتاجون إليهم من بعد ما كانوا يحتاجون إلى الناس
http://lib.eshia.ir/11005/2/20/%D9%88%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%A7%D9%82%D8%B1%D8%A7%D8%B1

Shias were before Abu Jafar (al-Baqir), and THEY DIDN'T KNOW RITUALS OF HAJ, WHATS IS PERMITTED TO THEM (HALAL) AND WHAT IS FORBIDDEN (HARAM) TO THEM, TILL ABU JAFAR CAME, AND OPENED to them, and explained rituals of Haj, and what is permitted to them and what is forbidden. (He explained it in such way) that other people need them, exactly as before they needed other people.

So. Points to ponder.

1) Before al-Baqir. During the Ali, Hasan, Husayn, Ali ibn Husayn shias didn't know what is haram or halal. And how to make haj.

2) What was the need in masoom imam, if they didn't teach their shias elementary and obligatory things?


Farid

Re: Shias before al Baqir
« Reply #1 on: October 15, 2015, 11:01:51 PM »
Wa alaykum alsalam,

Valuable quote. However, it is still inaccurate, since the Shias can't ever tell what Al Baqir's views were since half of his views were out of taqiyyah. ;)

Hani

Re: Shias before al Baqir
« Reply #2 on: October 15, 2015, 11:47:52 PM »
This is because they began to fabricate their narrations heavily in Ja`far's time, they even attributed things to his father in his life. Before that, the only narrations in existence where the Sunni ones.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Hani

Re: Shias before al Baqir
« Reply #3 on: October 15, 2015, 11:48:47 PM »
I remember reading that one Imam remained silent for 19 years after his father's death. Maybe it was Musa or `Ali.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Moin

Re: Shias before al Baqir
« Reply #4 on: October 15, 2015, 11:52:31 PM »
From a Sunnis point of view it is true though that al-Baqar was the person who related the most detailed narration about Hajj of the Prophet (sallallahu alaihi wa sallam) from Jabir b. Abdullah. It is Sahih muslim and Musnad Ahmad

Hani

Re: Shias before al Baqir
« Reply #5 on: October 16, 2015, 02:24:33 AM »
Baqir has more narrations in our books than al-Sadiq, for them it's the opposite. My opinion is still that al-Baqir was a Muhaddith and al-Sadiq was just a Faqih.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Rationalist

Re: Shias before al Baqir
« Reply #6 on: October 16, 2015, 02:35:10 AM »
This is just unacceptable. How can someone hold such belief?

Rationalist

Re: Shias before al Baqir
« Reply #7 on: October 16, 2015, 02:39:47 AM »
Nakshawani confirms the narration in this clip.



Refer to the 26:25 min mark.

I am sure they believe this to be the case with Tabarra against the 3 Calipahs as well.

Hadrami

Re: Shias before al Baqir
« Reply #8 on: October 16, 2015, 03:58:05 AM »
This is just unacceptable. How can someone hold such belief?
because they are shia? :D

Rationalist

Re: Shias before al Baqir
« Reply #9 on: October 17, 2015, 02:53:53 AM »
This is just unacceptable. How can someone hold such belief?
because they are shia? :D
The problem is the true supporters of Ali were massacred. Then later a lot of Rafidah were massacred throughout history. What we got left with is weak followers who lived in a pressure cooker, and then started propagating illogical beliefs.

 

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