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Some misconceptions about Thaqalayn

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muslim720

Re: Some misconceptions about Thaqalayn
« Reply #20 on: July 14, 2016, 04:59:04 PM »
As it has been alluded to already, thaqal has a meaning and while we are talking about the second of the two weighty things (Ahlul Bayt - may Allah be pleased with them), no one is talking about the first of the two, the Qur'an.  We are confronted by a people that wants us to go overboard in terms of accepting and praising Ahlul Bayt [ra], even restricting them to just a few members of the household, but they are not in line when it comes to the Qur'an.  They follow a school scholars of which are known for doubting the authenticity of the Qur'an.  They have written books about it and in the case of one scholar, he wrote a counter-rebuttal to defend his stance (belief in tahreef) presented in his book.

Why waste time on the second of the two weighty things when you have failed to grasp the essence of the first?
"Our coward ran from those in authority" - Iceman (admitting the truth regarding his 12th Imam)

ShiaMan

Re: Some misconceptions about Thaqalayn
« Reply #21 on: July 14, 2016, 08:07:48 PM »
As it has been alluded to already, thaqal has a meaning and while we are talking about the second of the two weighty things (Ahlul Bayt - may Allah be pleased with them), no one is talking about the first of the two, the Qur'an.  We are confronted by a people that wants us to go overboard in terms of accepting and praising Ahlul Bayt [ra], even restricting them to just a few members of the household, but they are not in line when it comes to the Qur'an.  They follow a school scholars of which are known for doubting the authenticity of the Qur'an.  They have written books about it and in the case of one scholar, he wrote a counter-rebuttal to defend his stance (belief in tahreef) presented in his book.

Why waste time on the second of the two weighty things when you have failed to grasp the essence of the first?
For someone who claims to spend time with shias, I am somewhat flabbergasted that you would ring up "oh shias believe the quran has changed".
What we have always said is that the Quran is misinterpreted. No shia doubts the authenticity of the Quran.
Furthermore, there are Sunni scholars who hold similar beliefs too so lets bring them into the equation.

muslim720

Re: Some misconceptions about Thaqalayn
« Reply #22 on: July 15, 2016, 02:45:09 AM »
For someone who claims to spend time with shias, I am somewhat flabbergasted that you would ring up "oh shias believe the quran has changed".
What we have always said is that the Quran is misinterpreted. No shia doubts the authenticity of the Quran.
Furthermore, there are Sunni scholars who hold similar beliefs too so lets bring them into the equation.

The common Shias say that they believe in the Qur'an.  I have no reason to doubt them.  However, there are members on this very forum, ex-Shias, who will tell you what their (still Shia) families say behind closed doors versus when they were among other Muslims.  That is when I was flabbergasted.

Again, nipping the issue in the bud, instead of wasting time, bring me one fatwa from any of your major ayatollahs that declares anyone who believes in tahreef to have gone outside the fold of Islam.  Do not bring me a fatwa that declares them misguided; I want kufr to be declared for them. 

Trust me, you will not find one.  If you do, we will outmatch you for every one you present.  Bismillah!
« Last Edit: July 15, 2016, 02:47:25 AM by muslim720 »
"Our coward ran from those in authority" - Iceman (admitting the truth regarding his 12th Imam)

ShiaMan

Re: Some misconceptions about Thaqalayn
« Reply #23 on: July 15, 2016, 06:37:06 PM »
Trust me, you will not find one.  If you do, we will outmatch you for every one you present.  Bismillah!
Because I dont want to go on a wild goose chase, I will say you are 100% correct that there is no fatwa from any shia scholar that states believing in thareef of quran is kufr. As a matter of fact, the following books/articles were written just to misguide everyone:

https://www.al-islam.org/al-bayan-fi-tafsir-al-quran-prolegomena-quran-ayatullah-sayyid-abulqasim-al-khui/7-protection-quran

https://www.al-islam.org/al-tawhid/vol4-n4/tahrif-al-quran-study-misconceptions-regarding-corruption-quranic-text/tahrif-al

https://www.al-islam.org/wahhabis-fitna-exposed-allamah-sayyid-saeed-akhtar-rizvi/tahrif

http://www.shiapen.com/comprehensive/creed-of-shia-explained/tahreef-of-quran.html

And pardon me if I dont believe in the fake ex-shias on this forum.

muslim720

Re: Some misconceptions about Thaqalayn
« Reply #24 on: July 16, 2016, 03:49:27 AM »
Because I dont want to go on a wild goose chase, I will say you are 100% correct that there is no fatwa from any shia scholar that states believing in thareef of quran is kufr.

Thank you.  You can keep your links in your back pocket since you have already admitted failure.
"Our coward ran from those in authority" - Iceman (admitting the truth regarding his 12th Imam)

fgss

Re: Some misconceptions about Thaqalayn
« Reply #25 on: July 16, 2016, 04:56:11 AM »
For someone who claims to spend time with shias, I am somewhat flabbergasted that you would ring up "oh shias believe the quran has changed".
What we have always said is that the Quran is misinterpreted. No shia doubts the authenticity of the Quran.
Furthermore, there are Sunni scholars who hold similar beliefs too so lets bring them into the equation.

Belief in tahreef is most dangerous of all wrong things. It means you can reject anything as per your choice from Quran and make interpretations as you desire. Similalry if you dont ask for chain of narrators for hadith it means anybody can say anything he wants.

I am not saying every shia believe is tahreef of Quran. But unfortunately many biggest scholars (including kulayni, majlisi, and the list is big) and many followers of shia religion not only believe in this but also defend it through all means. The point is that those amongst shia scholars and followers who actually believe and defend this concept, are totaly in great error. As per hadith of ghadir they are targeting and attacking biggest of two weighty things i.e Quran, for which Prophet said there is guidance and light in it, hold fast to it, it is rope of Allah.

Here is one proof from one of the famous shia website hubeali.com

Read entire document here: https://www.hubeali.com/articles/True-Shia-Beliefs-in-Quran-Majeed.pdf

ON PAGE 3 IT IS WRITTEN:


3. Why it is Important to believe in Tahreef in Quran?(1)  First  and  the  foremost,  there  are  many  traditions  of  masomeen sws  which  indicate  that  the  existing  Quran  has deliberately  been  altered  in  order  to  protect some of their infamous people and their sinful and innovative acts, as well as to obscure the eloquence status and rights of Rasool Allah saww and his pure progeny sws;

(2)  The  true  meanings  of  some  of  Quranic  Verses  cannot  be  understood,  without considering the fact that some words have deliberately been omitted.

Few selected traditions, related to (1) are presented in Appendix II.  We will discuss (2) here in order to establish the practical implications of believing in alterations  in  Quran  Majeed,  prior  to  presenting  masomeen sws’s  traditions  (Appendix  II),  followed  by  explanations  of  Quranic  Verses  which  have  been taken completely out of context by many scholars in opposition to ‘Tahreef in Quran.

Now What will be the ruling on those who are against the Quran, which is a reminder for all, under protection of Allah, biggest miracle of Prophet s.a.w.w??
إِنَّ أَصْدَقَ الْحَدِيثِ كِتَابُ اللَّهِ وَأَحْسَنَ الْهَدْىِ هَدْىُ مُحَمَّدٍ وَشَرَّ الأُمُورِ مُحْدَثَاتُهَا وَكُلَّ مُحْدَثَةٍ بِدْعَةٌ وَكُلَّ بِدْعَةٍ ضَلاَلَةٌ وَكُلَّ ضَلاَلَةٍ فِي النَّارِ

May Allah guide us to the true teachings of Quran and Sunnah of His beloved Prophet (s.a.w.w). Ameen

Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: Some misconceptions about Thaqalayn
« Reply #26 on: July 22, 2016, 03:59:00 AM »
Response to: The Collection and Preservation of the Qur’an
http://twelvershia.net/2015/09/19/response-to-the-collection-and-preservation-of-the-quran/

ShiaMan

Re: Some misconceptions about Thaqalayn
« Reply #27 on: July 26, 2016, 11:45:30 PM »
Quote
So if i get it, all you are saying we can assume Quran and the AhlulBayt are 2 most important but you are not agreeing to the assumption.
I repeat: If you dont understand the difference between assuming and agreeing, you have your work cut out for you.

Quote
So when the Prophet said he is leaving two weighty things, he meant during his life only and not after him?
If you also have a problem differentiating between what is meant and what is said, then we are going to be here for a while. As far as what he meant, yes he meant after him

Lets say I understand nothing.

Are the Quran and Ahlul-Bayt the 2 most important things the Prophet left behind?

Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: Some misconceptions about Thaqalayn
« Reply #28 on: July 27, 2016, 03:39:43 AM »
Quote
So if i get it, all you are saying we can assume Quran and the AhlulBayt are 2 most important but you are not agreeing to the assumption.
I repeat: If you dont understand the difference between assuming and agreeing, you have your work cut out for you.

Quote
So when the Prophet said he is leaving two weighty things, he meant during his life only and not after him?
If you also have a problem differentiating between what is meant and what is said, then we are going to be here for a while. As far as what he meant, yes he meant after him

Lets say I understand nothing.

Are the Quran and Ahlul-Bayt the 2 most important things the Prophet left behind?

Both are important in their respective manners. Quran in regards to following since it has guidance. And taking care of his family members ALL those on whom acceptance of Charity was forbidden.

 

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