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Academic Answers to unacademic objections on marraige of Umar with Ali's daughte

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TAHIR

Excuse 1:
Actually the umm kulthum who was married to umar , wasn't the daughter of Ali, rather she was the daughter of Abu Bakr (r.a) .
Ali Married a widow of Abu Bakr and then brought up his daughter and son and married her away to Umar.


Response:
We say curse of Allah be upon the liars.

a) who was umm kulthum bint Abi Bakr.

We read in Muwatta of imam Malik (r.a)

Malik related to me from Ibn Shihab from Urwa ibn az-Zubayr that A'isha, the wife of the Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said, "Abu Bakr as-Siddiq gave me palm trees whose produce was twenty awsuq from his property at al-Ghaba. When he was dying, he said, 'By Allah, little daughter, there is no one I would prefer to be wealthy after I die than you. There is no one it is more difficult for me to see poor after I die than you. I gave you palm-trees whose produce is twenty awsuq. Had you cut them and taken possession of them, they would have been yours, but today they are the property of the heirs, and they are your two brothers and your two sisters, so divide it according to the Book of Allah.' A'isha continued, "I said, 'My father! By Allah, even if it had been more, I would have left it. There is only Asma. Who is my other sister?" Abu Bakr replied, 'What is in the womb of Kharija? I think that it is going to be a girl.' "

https://sunnah.com/urn/414950

Point number 1:
Until the death of Abu Bakr (r.a) Aisha (r.a) knows of only one sister of her i-e Asma(r.a)
And habiba bint kharija was expecting ( a girl was born,who was named umm kulthum).

So it is established that the mother of umm kulthum was habiba bint kharija (r.a)

Now we get to know the widow of Abu Bakr (r.a) which was actually married to Ali (r.a)

We read in sahih Muslim:

A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported that Asma' bint `Umais gave birth to Muhammad b Abu Bakr near Dhu'l-Hulaifa. The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) commanded Abu Bakr to convey to her that she should take a bath and then enter into the state of Ihram.
https://sunnah.com/urn/407150

And it is known that Muhammad bin Abi Bakr was actually brought up by Ali (r.a) .
Thus the widow of Abu Bakr that was actually Married to Abu Bakr Asma bint umays.

To prove this point further we bring another report from tirmidhi

Narrated Dhakwan:
from the freed slave of 'Amr bin Al-'As that 'Amr bin Al-'As sent him to 'Ali seeking his permission to enter upon Asma bint Umais, so he permitted him. When he was finished from what he needed, the freed slave of 'Amr bin Al-'As asked about that, so he said: "Indeed the Prophet (ﷺ) prohibited us - or - prohibited that we enter upon women, without the permission of their husbands.".
That proves that the argument is a load of crap

Also notice that

Umm kulthum is born after the death of Abu Bakr (r.a) ,and umar (r.a) lived at most 10-11 years after Abu Bakr (r.a) this will make it impossible for her to bare two children from umar (r.a) while not being more than 12 years of age .


TAHIR

Excuse 2:  the number game:
None can express it better than our very own ice man
He says and i quote :
Quote
According to the politicians, Umm Kulthum and Omar ibn al-Khattab were married in the year 17 Hijri, when Umm Kulthum was 4 or 5 years old. That means she would have been born around the year 12 or 13 Hijri. So you mean Imam Ali(as) allowed his daughter to marry at 4 or 5 years old? Wow, anything to try to justify their idols. Anyways, now we expose these liars. If the Prophet Muhammad(saw) died in the year 11 Hijri, and Fatimah al-Zahra(as) died 6 months later, how in the world could Umm Kuthum(as) have been born after the death of her Mother(as). Even Sahih Bukhari confirms she died 6 months later. Sahih Bukhari:Volume:5 Book:59 Hadith:546

What ice man is doing here is he is burrowing from answering ansar


And the desperate folk gave two pieces of refrence for this :
History of Abul Fida, vol I p 171 - al Farooq by Shibli Numani, vol II p 539

Dr gf hadad points out

Quote
The above is a deceptive way of quoting because the sources only mention the date of the marriage as the year 17. They do not say Umm Kulthum was 5 or 4 that year nor anything about her date of birth. This is your own claim inserted as an historical premise, followed by your own conjecture.

Besides, the "History of Abul-Fida" is by the king of Hama, Isma`il ibn `Ali ibn Mahmud (d. 732) and Nu`mani is a contemporary. Surely, they must have an earlier transmitted basis for whatever they supposedly say. However, they did not say anything other than the date of marriage as the year 17.

Upon returning to the sources we found dr gf hadad's objection substantiated

For the benifit of readers we post images of shibli noumani book and link to Abul fidas book for them to confirm in their own
Abul fida while mentioning events of 17 hijri says
وتوج أم كلثوم بنت علي ابن أبي طالب، وأمها فاطمة رضي الله عنهما.
And umar (r.a) married umm kulthum bint Ali, who's mother is Fatimah
https://al-maktaba.org/book/12715/151

TAHIR

Now that shia references didn't avail , let us try to find out what could be the actual numbers :
Hafidh dhahbi in siyar says :

وُلِدَتْ فِي حُدُوْدِ سَنَةِ سِتٍّ مِنَ الهِجْرَةِ،
She was born within six years from hijrah.
:
https://al-maktaba.org/book/22669/2004

Umar (r.a) martyrdom occurred around the beginning of 24 year of Hijrah and this will make 18 years of their blessed life spans to intersect atleast.
Thus birth of two children from them doesn't come as any surprises.

MuslimK

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Masha'Allah!

Good observations!
در خلافت میل نیست ای بی‌خبر
میل کی آید ز بوبکر و عمر
میل اگر بودی در آن دو مقتدا
هر دو کردندی پسر را پیشوا

عطار نِیشابوری

www.Nahjul-Balagha.net | www.TwelverShia.net | www.ghadirkhumm.com

TAHIR

Another point i will like to add is:
Even if the two sources mentioned that marraige occurred when umm kulthum was five years of age it will prove nothing for two reasons:
1. Both of these sources aren't primary source material ,shibli noumani was a 19 or 20 century indian scholar and Abul fida was 8 th century, and in no way can their statements without chains be used against authentic established ahadith with multiple chains present in most primary of the sources.

2. Let us assume some of them mentioned that she was 5 years old and it was 17 hijri at the time of marraige.

And this data  obviously conflicts authentic history ,how does it prove marraige didn't occur ?
It only proves this data is wrong .
If this were the only data (assuming it exeists may be with 12 th imam) which brought us the information of marraige if umm kulthum bint Ali and Umar (r.a) , then this would have meant something , because error in one aspect of information casts doubt on other aspects.
But since never did we rely on this information as a proof of this marraige, never will an imperfection in it create any problem for us .

Shias often attack straw man by showing weakness of certain historical material but they completely ignore the most authentic narrations which prove it beyond Doubt that this marraige occurred:



1.
Narration ist:
إِنَّ عُمَرَ بْنَ الْخَطَّابِ رَضِيَ اللَّهُ عَنْهُ    قَسَمَ مُرُوطًا بَيْنَ نِسَاءٍ مِنْ نِسَاءِ الْمَدِينَةِ فَبَقِيَ مِرْطٌ جَيِّدٌ ، فَقَالَ لَهُ : بَعْضُ مَنْ عِنْدَهُ يَا أَمِيرَ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ أَعْطِ هَذَا ابْنَةَ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ الَّتِي عِنْدَكَ يُرِيدُونَ أُمَّ كُلْثُومٍ بِنْتَ عَلِيٍّ
Umar bin Al-Khattab distributed some garments amongst the women of Medina. One good garment remained, and one of those present with him said, O chief of the believers! Give this garment to your wife, the (grand) daughter of Allah's Apostle.
(Sahih Bukhari 2881)

2. Sunan Nasai
(1980)
، ‏‏‏‏‏‏أَنَّ ابْنَ عُمَرَ صَلَّى عَلَى تِسْعِ جَنَائِزَ جَمِيعًا فَجَعَلَ الرِّجَالَ يَلُونَ الْإِمَامَ وَالنِّسَاءَ يَلِينَ الْقِبْلَةَ فَصَفَّهُنَّ صَفًّا وَاحِدًا، ‏‏‏‏‏‏وَوُضِعَتْ جَنَازَةُ أُمِّ كُلْثُومِ بِنْتِ عَلِيٍّ امْرَأَةِ عُمَرَ بْنِ الْخَطَّابِ وَابْنٍ لَهَا يُقَالُ لَهُ زَيْدٌ،

And the funeral of Umm Kulthum bint 'Ali the wife of 'Umar bin Al-Khattab, and a son of hers called Zaid were placed together.

3.
Musnad abil jaad
حَدَّثَنَا عَلِيٌّ، أنا شُعْبَةُ، عَنْ أَبِي حُصَيْنٍ، عَنِ الشَّعْبِيِّ، عَنِ ابْن عُمَرَ، «أَنَّهُ صَلَّى عَلَى أَخِيهِ، وَأُمِّهِ أُمِّ كُلْثُومٍ بِنْتِ عَلِی "
https://al-maktaba.org/book/4407

Ibn Umar (r.a) led the funeral of his brother (zayd) and his mother umm kulthum.

There can be more proof to it but for an objective reader this will be a sufficient inshallah
Ahadith which prove the marraige conclusively
« Last Edit: October 05, 2020, 10:27:49 AM by TAHIR »

TAHIR

Excuse 3 : but she was tooo young ::
Response:
We as Ahl sunnah have no problem in believing the marraige of young girls to elderly men back in history and so shouldn't you as shias have any .

Al-khoei says in vol 1 page 152 of kitab an nikah
: لا يجوز وطئ الزوجة قبل اكمال تسع سنين (1) حرة كانت أو أمة، دواما كان النكاح أو متعة
It is not permissible to have intercourse with wife untill 9 years of age .be she free women or slave women ,be the marraige be temporary(mutah) or permanent.
He then brings three authentic narrations in support of this
منها: صحيحة الحلبي عن أبي عبد الله (ع): (قال: إذا تزوج الرجل الجارية وهي صغيرة فلا يدخل بها حتى يأتي لها تسع سنين

If some body marries a young girl then don't enter upon her untill she is 9 years of age

(Authentically reported from halbi)

موثقة زرارة عن أبي جعفر (ع): (قال: لا يدخل بالجارية حتى يأتي لها تسع سنين أو عشر سنين) (

And it is muqthiq (strong) from zuraarah don't have intercourse with young girl untill she is 9 years of age :
We ask what after then🤔

ومنها: معتبرة غياث بن إبراهيم عن جعفر عن أبيه عن علي (ع):
(قال: لا توطأ جارية لأقل من عشر سنين فإن فعل فعيبت فقد ضمن
And in it is authentic from gayath bin ibraheem
" Don't enter upon her untill she is 10 , if you did and some thing happened to her ,then you are responsible"


Thus it is clear that
According toa authentic narrations from imams of shia , marraige is permissible even before 9 while intimacy is only allowed after 10 .
This does away with the age excuse Alhamdulillah.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2020, 10:28:49 PM by TAHIR »

 

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