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The Prophet left two weighty things: stop the deception TSN/Sunni Defense/YPTA

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Ebn Hussein

Truth is, the Rafidah can never ever prove that:

Ahlul-Bayt = 12 Imams of the Twelver sect

So even IF we go by the most favourite al-Thaqalayn version of the Rafidah, Sunnism wouldn't be disproved nor would Imamism be proven to be truth.

As for Sunnism: Ahlul-Bayt is a general term and encompasses many individuals that the Rafidah exclude from the Ahlul-Bayt. Ibn Abbas is one of them, a main narrator and main mufassir of Sunnis.

As for Rafidism: The Qur'an between their hands has been compiled (according to them) by renegades and apostates, it's corrupted and at best muhtarim (respected) as their scholars say until the rise of their hidden one.

Conclusion: they have no Qur'an (of the Ahlul-Bayt, don't even start the 'Hafs is a Shi'ite argument, it will backfire...trust me) nor Ahlul-Bayt, the alleged guide is on idle for 1200 years, represented by fallible Iranian 'Ayatollahs' who can recite a Fatihah with semi-correct Tajwid.

Case closed.
الإمام الشافعي رحمه الله
لم أر أحداً من أهل الأهواء أشهد بالزور من الرافضة! - الخطيب في الكفاية والسوطي.

Imam Al-Shafi3i - may Allah have mercy upon him - said: "I have not seen among the heretics a people more famous for falsehood than the Rafidah." [narrated by Al-Khatib Al-Baghdadi/Al-Kifayah]

Soccer

So even IF we go by the most favourite al-Thaqalayn version of the Rafidah, Sunnism wouldn't be disproved nor would Imamism be proven to be truth.


Yet you guys were desperately trying to hide how authentic it is lol.

I just wanted to add, singular usage, in Quran, often the Prophet and Quran is referred to as a single light. The Prophet is also called the proof and the reminder, showing unity between him and Quran or rather where the true Quran resides was his heart and soul.

The same is true of his family, and Quran also talks about the rope of God as a rope from God and rope from humans.

So there is nothing wrong with emphasizing on them being one, that he left in fact, one thing but at the same time stating their two. And this emphasized also with "and they will not separate till they return to the pond" which also has many authentic chains.

Anyways this was an epic thread.

Hopefully people can use reason properly and analyze the discussion properly.


"Is it so bad, then, to be misunderstood? Pythagoras was misunderstood, and Socrates, and Jesus, and Luther, and Copernicus, and Galileo, and Newton, and every pure and wise spirit that ever took flesh. To be great is to be misunderstood.” ― Ralph Waldo Emerson, Self-Reliance

whoaretheshia

As we see all the chains of weakness, as already discussed in this thread. And they go against, the accurate structure of the wording, as explained in my previous post which you are deliberately avoiding to answer.

Al-Albani, Ibn Hajar, and many of the scholars of the the Ahlus-Sunnah did not consider the tradition in Saheeh Muslim (either Zayd b. Arqam (Radiyllahu anhu) in his very old aged and post-memory loss) or the hadith of Jabir b.Abdillah (radiyallahu anhu) to be in contradiction with the reliable hasan chains contained in Mushkil al-Athar, of Imam at-Tahawi, or Musnad ibn Rawayh, the teacher of Imam al-Bukhari.

Rather, i will quote the view of Al-Albani who summarises as follows:

"the mention, in this hadith, of the members of his household, alongside the Qur’an, is like the mention of the way of the Rightly Guided Caliphs alongside the Sunnah (way) of the Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) in the hadith: “I urge you to adhere to my way (Sunnah) and the way of the Rightly Guided Caliphs…”
Silsilat al-Ahaadeeth as-Saheehah (4/260).

According to, Moulana Suhail Motala approved by Moulana Haroon Abasoomar of the Hanafi school, on hadithanswers.com:

"The Muhaddithun don’t regard issues like these as a contradiction, rather it is an addition, showing us the importance of Quran, Sunnah and the Ahlu Bayt"
https://hadithanswers.com/hadith-i-am-leaving-behind-two-things/


Quote
I feel this quote from the Shia researcher of the book “al-Masa’il al-Sarawiyyah” Sa’ib Abdul-Hameed, where he praises the author, the esteemed Shia Scholar Shaykh al-Mufeed for his scientific professional method in the book, is sufficient:

“In this book we can clearly see the correct methodology (of al-Mufeed) in his research and in how he extracts proofs. He holds on to the authentic established narration and leaves all else, even if what opposes it was related by the great ones such as al-Saduq and ibn al-Junayd. He shows complete disregard to the multitude of narrations whose chains are unreliable, instead he relies on the single authentic chain leaving behind a large pile of weak and fabricated reports. He is the expert diver who selects the pure pearls leaving behind the rubble that floats in the oceans.”[al-Masa’il al-Sarawiyyah, by Shaykh al-Mufeed, Tahqeeq by Sa’ib Abdul Hameed, page 12].

Al-Mufid had a stricter criteria over what narrations one could derive Yaqeen from. He was also critical of those before him who chose to include a mixture of reports into their collections.

However, on this topic, nobody denies that if the chains of narrators promote Shadh content, or contain within them narrators who are disparaged as fabricators, liars, or those with extreme open Rafdh (Fasiqs?), chains of narrations coming exclusively from this group, even if they number a large ammount would not give strength to the narration in our case on account of the Shawahid or Mu'tabaat. 

In his Muqaddimah Ibn al-Salah states:

"Not every weakness in the Hadith is eliminated by the hadith coming from different lines of transmission. Rather the situation varies:

… there are also types of weakness which are not eliminated by something similar to that, on account of severity of the weakness and the failure of this Jaber (consoler) to console it and mend it.  An example of this is the weakness which arises from the transmitter being accused of lying, or the fact that the hadith is Shadh (irregular).

…Rather the situation varies: one weakness which the passage of the hadith through different lines of transmission eliminates the weakness which arises from some deficiency in the retention of its transmitter, when he is otherwise veracious and pious. When we saw the hadith he related also came from another line of transmission, we realize that it is one of the hadith that he had retained properly, and that his accuracy in it was not impaired …”

Now in our case, we actually have the following:

1. One tradition which is Hasan li-Dhati, in and of itself. Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani, Al-Albani, Shu'ayb al-Arnaut, Ahmad B. Abu Bakr b.Ismail Al Busri and the majority of your scholars have deemed the narrators in this chain to be 'Hasan', and therefore the Isnaad at the very least to be 'Hasan'. This is the tradition of Kathir b.Zayd, in two chains through him, Mushkil al-Athar of Imam at-Tahawi, and Musnad ibn Rawayh, the teacher of Imam Bukhari.

2. Many additional chains, from various other companions, from Zayd b. Arqam, Abu Tufayl, Abu Sa'id al-Khudri, in addition to Ali b. Abi Talib, whose narrators are not disparaged as liars, Rawafidh, nor fabricators, but are considered weak mainly on account of retention, or Tadlees. Several of these chains Muhadditheen such as Al-Albani and Al-Arnaut have regarded as 'Hasan bil Shawahid'. This means the various paths for the tradition elevate the chain from Dhai'f to 'Hasan'. I have made a compilation in the previous page.

3. Furthermore, Al-Albani as well as many of your Muhaditheen themselves have used reports where there is or may be a disconnection between narrators in strengthening the chains.

There are several narrations from Thiqah narrators,where the only question is that of Tadlees. For instance, Habib b. Abi Thabit --> AbuTufayl -->Zayd b.Arqam.  Imam at-Tahawi regards the Sanad from this point as Saheeh, proof he believes Habib heard from Abu Tufayl. Nevertheless, if you believe this is still a disconnected report due to the question here, Al-Albani and others have still used reports where they may be a disconnection and weak itself, as proof and Shawahid.

Al-Albani strenghtening weaker chains/reports

Niqab: http://maktabasalafiya.blogspot.com/2011/06/shaykh-alabanis-position-of-niqab-of.html


Sheikh Al-Albani explains reasons behind this Hadith’s authenticity in great detail:

“. . . (The narration’s chain is) Bashir from Qatadah from Khalid ibn Duraik from Aishah. Ibn Adiy added that he (Khalid) once attributed it to Umm Salamah instead of Aishah. Abu Dawud said after citing it, ‘This Hadith is Mursal. Khalid ibn Duraik did not meet Aishah.’ Also, Sa’eed ibn Bashir is weak according to Hafidh ibn Hajar in At-Taqrib. However, this Hadith has been reported via other ways that strengthen it:

(1.) A Mursal report recorded by Abu Dawud (no. 437) from Qatadah with an authentic chain that includes neither ibn Duraik nor ibn Bashir: ‘Indeed, once a young girl reaches menses, it is not right for her to expose except her face and hands to the wrists.'

(2.) At-Tabarani (in Al-Kabir 24/143/378 and Al-Awsat 2/230/8959) and Al-Bayhaqi recorded via ibn Lahi’ah from Iyadh from Abdullah from Ibrahim bin Rufa’ah Al-Ansari from his father from (he believed) Asma bint Umays that Allah’s Messenger (peace be upon him) entered Aishah’s house while she had with her sister Asma bint Abi Bakr, who was wearing wide-sleeved clothes (see the report in question for the remainder of this Hadith’s text) . . . There is no doubt that a report by ibn Lahi’ah does not go below the level of Hasan when it has supportive narrations, as is the case here . . .”

(Jilbab Ul-Mar’at Il-Muslimah pp. 58-59)"

And here is another example, on the prophecy of Kerbala:
"
قلت وبالجملة فالحديث صحيح بمجموع هذه الطرق، وإن كانت مفرداتها لا تخلو من ضعف، ولكنه ضعف يسير، لا سيما وبعضها قد حسنه الهيثمي، والله أعلم

“Altogether, the Hadith is authentic by collectively considering all the chains of narration. This is true even though each single chain is not free from defects, but it’s minor defects. This is not to mention that some of those chains were graded as Hassan [less authentic than Sahih, yet authentic] by al-Haythamee.  And Allah knows best.”


"I leave behind for you two weighty things, which if you hold onto, you will never go astray...the Quran and my Ahlulbayt" - Musnad Ibn Rawayh (al-Albani classes Isnaad *independently* as Hasan, and Matn as authentic, as does Al-Arnaut, Ibn Hajar and others.

whoaretheshia

Truth is, the Rafidah can never ever prove that:

Ahlul-Bayt = 12 Imams of the Twelver sect

So even IF we go by the most favourite al-Thaqalayn version of the Rafidah, Sunnism wouldn't be disproved nor would Imamism be proven to be truth.

As for Sunnism: Ahlul-Bayt is a general term and encompasses many individuals that the Rafidah exclude from the Ahlul-Bayt. Ibn Abbas is one of them, a main narrator and main mufassir of Sunnis.

As for Rafidism: The Qur'an between their hands has been compiled (according to them) by renegades and apostates, it's corrupted and at best muhtarim (respected) as their scholars say until the rise of their hidden one.

Conclusion: they have no Qur'an (of the Ahlul-Bayt, don't even start the 'Hafs is a Shi'ite argument, it will backfire...trust me) nor Ahlul-Bayt, the alleged guide is on idle for 1200 years, represented by fallible Iranian 'Ayatollahs' who can recite a Fatihah with semi-correct Tajwid.

Case closed.


Aside from the  caricature and inaccuracies of this post, let us deal with the substantive points you have made. The fundamental thing first is to demonstrate that, given the partisan bias Shias have, and Sunnis have, if we want to reach haq, we must abide by the Quran, and that which is genuinely Mutawattir between both sects. In this way, we deal with that which there are substantive proofs for, what is unanimously accepted.

TSN, SunniDefense, and a large swathe of the online groups over the last decade or two, have vehemently tried to deny that the Prophet ever commanded us to follow the Quran and the Ahlulbayt, lest we go astray. Efforts have been made to consistently weaken this, because, as Hani himself admitted, if one were to take this as authentic, it strongly supports the Shia narrative.

If you believe the Prophet commanded us to obey the Quran and the Ahlulbayt for our guidance, as one of the last major declarations, along side declaring Ali the Mawla of whomsoever he and Allah are the Mawla of, the entire discussion changes.

That is why you now find brothers like Farid throwing up poorly considered challenges like 'Prove the twelve according to Sunni books'.

Habibi, you can't prove all of Islam using the Bible, but you can show Christians clear flashes of Tawheed in their own Bible which they have ignored and interpreted away despite the clear meaning.  What we Shia are trying to do is prove what is Tawattur between us both, which is the only fair thing anyone who wants to discern truth can do. What do we know with a high degree of confidence the Prophet said, which was declared so publicly, it is deemed authentic and widely transmitted among both Sunni and Shia collections?


"I leave behind for you two weighty things, which if you hold onto, you will never go astray...the Quran and my Ahlulbayt" - Musnad Ibn Rawayh (al-Albani classes Isnaad *independently* as Hasan, and Matn as authentic, as does Al-Arnaut, Ibn Hajar and others.

whoaretheshia

Yet you guys were desperately trying to hide how authentic it is lol.

I just wanted to add, singular usage, in Quran, often the Prophet and Quran is referred to as a single light. The Prophet is also called the proof and the reminder, showing unity between him and Quran or rather where the true Quran resides was his heart and soul.

The same is true of his family, and Quran also talks about the rope of God as a rope from God and rope from humans.

So there is nothing wrong with emphasizing on them being one, that he left in fact, one thing but at the same time stating their two. And this emphasized also with "and they will not separate till they return to the pond" which also has many authentic chains.

Anyways this was an epic thread.

Hopefully people can use reason properly and analyze the discussion properly.

Were? The attempts to deem it not authentic are still going on. Perhaps by virtue of their Fitrah, or otherwise, they recognize the ramifications of accepting it as authentic. Imagine the Imam of Masjid ul-Haram during Jumm'ah proclaiming:

"The Prophet (saw) declared at Ghadir, i am leaving behind for you two weighty things, which if you hold onto, you will never go astray.The Quran and my Ahlulbayt, and they will never deviate from one another until they meet me again at the Pool of Kawthar (highest level of Jannah.

The Messenger of Allah (saw) then held the hand of Ali and proclaimed: " Whomsoever Allah and his Messenger are Mawla, Ali is his Mawla"


Most of the crowd there don't know this Hadith exists, let alone that it is widely transmitted between both Shias and Sunnis, and deemed authentic by both sets of Ulema barring the ones with bias in their hearts, or who are ignorant.

Accepting that Rasulullah (saw) declared to tens of thousands, right before proclaiming Ali as the Mawla of whomsoever he was the Mawla of, that we should hold onto the Quran and Ahlulbayt if we never want to go astray completely changes the entire narrative.

That is why you find they are willing to even discard the verdicts of Al-Albani, Al-Arnaut, Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani etc and instead adopt the views of Farid, Hani, Noor-us-Sunnah, who are all very talented and in themselves learned individuals, but are nothing in authority to the aforementioned, as far as Sunnis should be concerned.

"I leave behind for you two weighty things, which if you hold onto, you will never go astray...the Quran and my Ahlulbayt" - Musnad Ibn Rawayh (al-Albani classes Isnaad *independently* as Hasan, and Matn as authentic, as does Al-Arnaut, Ibn Hajar and others.

whoaretheshia

I don't want to spam chains / it will take too long to read, so refer to this article a brother has made to compile chains etc: https://shiaresponses.wordpress.com/hadith-al-thaqalayn-articles/
"I leave behind for you two weighty things, which if you hold onto, you will never go astray...the Quran and my Ahlulbayt" - Musnad Ibn Rawayh (al-Albani classes Isnaad *independently* as Hasan, and Matn as authentic, as does Al-Arnaut, Ibn Hajar and others.

Mythbuster1

The problem with this theory is,it was said miles away from the centre,where it would have been ideal to state such and clearly so.

Instead mawla was only mentioned AFTER the last hajj and that too miles away after everybody left for their homes, that too a word with many many meanings. That shows how desperate you shiites are at trying to prove something that just isn’t there.

I mean trying to clutch at something that’s clearly explained by Sunni with context and trying to make a rule out of it is honestly bordering on desperation.

Nothing in Quran Nothing in sunnah but you have vague reports that you substantiate to be true is a desperate attempt by shiites and that too by turning a blind eye to the context of the situation.

whoaretheshia

Update on the various Isnaad for Hadith al-Thaqalayn whereby the Prophet at Ghadir Khumm first declared:

"I leave behind for you that which if you hold onto,you will never go astray"

Hasan li-Dhati (outright Hasan):

1.حدثنا سليمان بن عبيد الله الغيلاني، حدثنا أبو عامر، حدثنا كثير بن زيد، عن محمد بن عمر بن علي، عن أبيه، عن علي رضي الله عنه أن رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم قال :إني تركت فيكم ما إن أخذتم به لن تضلوا :كتاب الله، سببه بيد الله، وسببه بأيديكم، وأهل بيتي.

2. حدثنا إبراهيم بن مرزوق قال : حدثنا أبو عامر العقدي قال : حدثنا كثير بن زيد، عن محمد بن عمر بن علي ، عن أبيه ، عن علي ، أن النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم  – إني قد تركت فيكم ما إن أخذتم به لن تضلوا :كتاب الله سببه بأيديكم، وأهل بيتي.

Hasan Li-Ghayri

 3.حدثنا عبد الله حدثنى ابى عن ابن نمير ثنا عبدالملك بن ابى سليمان عن عطية العوفى عن ابى سعيد الخدرى قال قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه و سلم انى قد تركت فيكم ما ان اخذتم به لن تضلوا بعدى الثقلين احدهما اكبر من الاخر كتاب الله حبل ممدود من السماء الى الارض و عترتى اهل بيتى وانهما لن يفترقا حتى يردا على الحوض

 4.حدثنا محمد بن الفضيل حدثنا الاعمش عن عطية عن ابى سعي قال قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه و سلم انى تارك فيكم ما  2 تمسكتم به لن تضلوا بعدى احدهما اعظم من الاخر كتاب الله حبل ممدود من السماء الى الارض وعترتى اههل  حدثنا على بن المنذر الكوفى د  بيتى ولن يتفرقا حتى يردا علىّ الحوض فانظروا كيف تخلفونى فيهما

 5. حدثنا ابو بكر بن اسحاق ودعلج بن احمد السجزى قالا انبانا محمد بن ايوب ثنا الازرق بن على ثنا حسان بن ابراهيم الكرمانى ثنا محمد بن سلمة بن كهيل عن ابيه عن ابى الطفيل بن واثلة انه سمع زيد بن ارقم رضى الله عنه يقول نزل رسول الله صلى الله عليه و سلم بين مكة والمدينة عند شجرات خمس دوحات عظام فكنس الناس ما تحت الشجرات ثم راح رسول الله صلى الله عليه و سلم عشيه فصللى ثم قام خطيبا فحمد الله و اثنى عليه وذكر ووعظ فقال ما شاء الله ان يقول ثم قال ايها الناس انى تارك فيكم امرين لن تضلوا ان اتبعتموهما وهما كتاب الله و اهل بيتى عترتى ثم قال اتعلمون انى اولى بالمؤمنين من انفسهم ثلاث مرات قالوا نعم فقال رسول الله صلى الله عليه و سلم من كنت مولاه فعلى مولاه

 6. حدثنا علي بن المنذر كوفي حدثنا محمد بن فضيل قال حدثنا الأعمش عن عن حبيب بن أبي ثابت عن زيد بن أرقم رضي الله عنهما قالا : قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه و سلم إني تارك فيكم ما إن تمسكتم به لن تضلوا بعدي أحدهما أعظم من الآخر كتاب الله حبل ممدود من السماء إلى الأرض وعترتي أهل بيتي ولن يتفرقا حتى يردا علي الحوض فانظروا كيف تخلفوني فيهم

 7. عبدالملك بن محمد بن عبد الله القرشي -> يحيى بن حماد -> أبو عوانة -> العماش -> حبيب بن أبي ثابت -> `أمير بن وائل أبو طفيل -> زيد بن ارقم … قال انى تارك فيكم الثقلين ما ان تمسكتم به لن تضلوا كتاب الله وعترتى ولن يتفرقا حتى يردا على الحوض…

8. قال محمد بن علي الشيباني - أحمد بن عظيم الغفارة - أبو نعيم - كامل أبو العال - -  حبيب بن أبي ثابت - يحيى بن جعبة - ياعيا بن جعبة عن زيد بن أرقم


There are additional chains i will include later but suffice to note for the above:

1. Nobody accused of being a liar
2. Nobody accused of being one who forges
3. Nobody reliably accused of being a Rafidah
4. Majority of narrators regarded as Saduq, truthful, with weaknesses being in retention for the Dhai'f narrators i.e. weak in Hadith, something multiple chains can remedy according to Sunni scholars, or slight or possible disconnections.
"I leave behind for you two weighty things, which if you hold onto, you will never go astray...the Quran and my Ahlulbayt" - Musnad Ibn Rawayh (al-Albani classes Isnaad *independently* as Hasan, and Matn as authentic, as does Al-Arnaut, Ibn Hajar and others.

Noor-us-Sunnah

See how Rafidah with their half-baked knowledge which is Jahl make foolish arguments.

(i). Report #1 & #2 have common narrator with weakness in him(Kathir bin Zayd) hence its one report.

(ii). Report #3 , #4 have common narrator who was weak and a Mudallis (Atiyya awfi).

(iii). Report #5 Narrator Muhammad bin Salama bin Kuhail had Munkar reports and he was a Shia.

(iv). Report #6  #7, #8 have common narrator Habib bin Abi Thabit, who was Mudallis.

As for the chain of narrators then, except one chain all the rest(3 : ii, iii, iv) are extremely problematic.  The presence of Mudallis in a chain and him not clarifying hearing, puts the possibility of liars, forgers and Rafidah, its a possibility though. And one narrator had Munkar reports. This answers point 1,2,3. Point 4 is a myth and thoroughly explained and shattered in this article:
https://youpuncturedtheark.wordpress.com/2015/02/19/hadeeth-al-thaqalayntwo-weighty-things-the-correct-understanding-and-a-spot-on-perspective-of-sunnis/


MuslimK

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Were? The attempts to deem it not authentic are still going on. Perhaps by virtue of their Fitrah, or otherwise, they recognize the ramifications of accepting it as authentic. Imagine the Imam of Masjid ul-Haram during Jumm'ah proclaiming:

"The Prophet (saw) declared at Ghadir, i am leaving behind for you two weighty things, which if you hold onto, you will never go astray.The Quran and my Ahlulbayt, and they will never deviate from one another until they meet me again at the Pool of Kawthar (highest level of Jannah.

The Messenger of Allah (saw) then held the hand of Ali and proclaimed: " Whomsoever Allah and his Messenger are Mawla, Ali is his Mawla"


Most of the crowd there don't know this Hadith exists, let alone that it is widely transmitted between both Shias and Sunnis, and deemed authentic by both sets of Ulema barring the ones with bias in their hearts, or who are ignorant.

Accepting that Rasulullah (saw) declared to tens of thousands, right before proclaiming Ali as the Mawla of whomsoever he was the Mawla of, that we should hold onto the Quran and Ahlulbayt if we never want to go astray completely changes the entire narrative.

That is why you find they are willing to even discard the verdicts of Al-Albani, Al-Arnaut, Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani etc and instead adopt the views of Farid, Hani, Noor-us-Sunnah, who are all very talented and in themselves learned individuals, but are nothing in authority to the aforementioned, as far as Sunnis should be concerned.



You are mistaken. Although you have been answered many times on this forum on this topic but even if these are considered authentic it doesn't prove anything against Ahl-Sunnah nor does it prove your sect to be correct. This is something you should keep in mind.



Aside from the  caricature and inaccuracies of this post, let us deal with the substantive points you have made. The fundamental thing first is to demonstrate that, given the partisan bias Shias have, and Sunnis have, if we want to reach haq, we must abide by the Quran, and that which is genuinely Mutawattir between both sects. In this way, we deal with that which there are substantive proofs for, what is unanimously accepted.

TSN, SunniDefense, and a large swathe of the online groups over the last decade or two, have vehemently tried to deny that the Prophet ever commanded us to follow the Quran and the Ahlulbayt, lest we go astray. Efforts have been made to consistently weaken this, because, as Hani himself admitted, if one were to take this as authentic, it strongly supports the Shia narrative.

If you believe the Prophet commanded us to obey the Quran and the Ahlulbayt for our guidance, as one of the last major declarations, along side declaring Ali the Mawla of whomsoever he and Allah are the Mawla of, the entire discussion changes.

That is why you now find brothers like Farid throwing up poorly considered challenges like 'Prove the twelve according to Sunni books'.

Habibi, you can't prove all of Islam using the Bible, but you can show Christians clear flashes of Tawheed in their own Bible which they have ignored and interpreted away despite the clear meaning.  What we Shia are trying to do is prove what is Tawattur between us both, which is the only fair thing anyone who wants to discern truth can do. What do we know with a high degree of confidence the Prophet said, which was declared so publicly, it is deemed authentic and widely transmitted among both Sunni and Shia collections?



Farid has a point - what makes your sect separate from the vast majority of Muslims is mainly your belief in the Imamah of 12 Imams. If You can't prove the foundation of your sect from the Quran or the Sunnah then that says a lot. You can't even prove it from books of other Shia sects, and even struggle in your own twelver sources.
در خلافت میل نیست ای بی‌خبر
میل کی آید ز بوبکر و عمر
میل اگر بودی در آن دو مقتدا
هر دو کردندی پسر را پیشوا

عطار نِیشابوری

www.Nahjul-Balagha.net | www.TwelverShia.net | www.ghadirkhumm.com

Soccer

If You can't prove the foundation of your sect from the Quran or the Sunnah then that says a lot.

You are right about both points, but it's off-topic. This topic is about hadithal thaqalayn.
"Is it so bad, then, to be misunderstood? Pythagoras was misunderstood, and Socrates, and Jesus, and Luther, and Copernicus, and Galileo, and Newton, and every pure and wise spirit that ever took flesh. To be great is to be misunderstood.” ― Ralph Waldo Emerson, Self-Reliance

 

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