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The Sun is Ali, the Moon is Ali, the Planets are Ali....

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Husayn

The Sun is Ali, the Moon is Ali, the Planets are Ali....
« on: February 21, 2015, 02:06:07 AM »
Here is a very shirki clip that many 12vers I know used to play on their phones a few years back:



Basically, 'Ali is everything.

He is the First, the Last, the Hidden, the Apparent (Sifat of Allah (swt)). He helped all the Prophets - like Nuh, Ibrahim e.t.c.

He is the Sun, the Stars, the Planets, the Earth, the everything!

Anyone who claims that 12vers are not mushrikeen is very badly mistaken.
إن يتبعون إلا الظن وما تهوى الأنفس

Hani

Re: The Sun is Ali, the Moon is Ali, the Planets are Ali....
« Reply #1 on: February 21, 2015, 02:15:07 AM »
This Darwish guy is Lebanese, I know it's a popular Shami family.

Here's a link to a very relevant thread:
http://forum.twelvershia.net/imamah-ghaybah/lebanese-shia-scholar-complaining-from-ghuluw/msg3620/#new

I suggest you say that Shirk is widespread between Shia than to say they're all Mushrikeen. Wallahu A`lam.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Husayn

Re: The Sun is Ali, the Moon is Ali, the Planets are Ali....
« Reply #2 on: February 21, 2015, 02:41:37 AM »
I wouldn't say shirk is "widespread", I would say that these shirki beliefs are part of the core of 12ver beliefs, and those who go against them are considered outcasts, and are generally reviled.
إن يتبعون إلا الظن وما تهوى الأنفس

Hani

Re: The Sun is Ali, the Moon is Ali, the Planets are Ali....
« Reply #3 on: February 21, 2015, 03:05:13 AM »
You know better about them I guess.

What "powers" does the average Shi`ee believe the Imam has?
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Bolani Muslim

Re: The Sun is Ali, the Moon is Ali, the Planets are Ali....
« Reply #4 on: February 21, 2015, 03:28:41 AM »
Have you heard of Jawad Zaker? His accent is very far from mine, but I could understand the worst parts, he calls Ali the creater of multiple things (like saying Haider is the creator of the 7 skies), says that Ali is God (naozobillah), says that he worships haider (ali), and calls himself 'bandi haider' (type of Slavery only reserved for Allah, if he said Ghulame haider he'd be fine). 
« Last Edit: February 21, 2015, 03:34:45 AM by Bolani Muslim »

Husayn

Re: The Sun is Ali, the Moon is Ali, the Planets are Ali....
« Reply #5 on: February 21, 2015, 04:08:40 AM »
You know better about them I guess.

What "powers" does the average Shi`ee believe the Imam has?

At the very least, the average 12ver will believe that 'Ali could take on an entire army all by himself.

Also, he could have destroyed the earth with a single stroke of his sword (Khaybar and Marhab).

Generally, the average 12ver will accept any praise of any Imam, so long as the speak says something like:

"Qaala Imam al-Sadiq" e.t.c. e.t.c.

And they will follow it up with Salawat.
إن يتبعون إلا الظن وما تهوى الأنفس

Rationalist

Re: The Sun is Ali, the Moon is Ali, the Planets are Ali....
« Reply #6 on: February 21, 2015, 04:09:42 AM »
What about al Jafr ? Are they unanimous on that ?

Rationalist

Re: The Sun is Ali, the Moon is Ali, the Planets are Ali....
« Reply #7 on: February 21, 2015, 04:12:34 AM »

At the very least, the average 12ver will believe that 'Ali could take on an entire army all by himself.


That can easily be dismissed. The reason is during the arbitration between Muawiyah and Ali, Ali asked Malik Al Asthar to withdraw. He asks Malik to come back and protect him with his troops of 12,000.

Also to the Khawarij he says how it was impossible to independently voice against the arbitration. He then adds "did you expect me to fight with a one man army ?"
« Last Edit: February 21, 2015, 04:14:49 AM by Rationalist »

Husayn

Re: The Sun is Ali, the Moon is Ali, the Planets are Ali....
« Reply #8 on: February 21, 2015, 04:52:07 AM »

At the very least, the average 12ver will believe that 'Ali could take on an entire army all by himself.


That can easily be dismissed. The reason is during the arbitration between Muawiyah and Ali, Ali asked Malik Al Asthar to withdraw. He asks Malik to come back and protect him with his troops of 12,000.

Also to the Khawarij he says how it was impossible to independently voice against the arbitration. He then adds "did you expect me to fight with a one man army ?"

This is not the "average" 12ver.

Any 12ver who knows this is certainly above-average, if not ïn the "elites".
By "average" 12ver I'm talking about the masses.
إن يتبعون إلا الظن وما تهوى الأنفس

Husayn

Re: The Sun is Ali, the Moon is Ali, the Planets are Ali....
« Reply #9 on: February 21, 2015, 02:56:05 PM »
What about al Jafr ? Are they unanimous on that ?

Most won't know what it is... they'll probablly think you mean Imam Ja'far as-Sadiq.

However - once you explain it to them, they will happily believe it.

No praise is too high for 'Ali (ra) - except maybe calling him God.
إن يتبعون إلا الظن وما تهوى الأنفس

 

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