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The superiority of the first two caliphs

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Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: The superiority of the first two caliphs
« Reply #20 on: May 16, 2019, 09:06:50 AM »
The hadith which I quoted clearly highlights that Umar fled from the Battle of Hunayn, so much so that another fleeing had to flee from the battle itself to then catch up to him. And then I tied this act of Umar to kufr as it is mentioned in the Quran Shareef that fleeing from a holy war, which Hunayn most definetly was, will result in an abode in Hell.
And you were refuted with a clear refutation for your clear ignorance and misunderstanding.

muslim720

Re: The superiority of the first two caliphs
« Reply #21 on: May 16, 2019, 01:59:35 PM »
Here you go:

O ye who believe! when ye meet the Unbelievers in hostile array, never turn your backs to them

If any do turn his back to them on such a day - unless it be in a stratagem of war, or to retreat to a troop (of his own)- he draws on himself the wrath of Allah, and his abode is Hell,- an evil refuge (indeed)!

In post # 6, you claimed, "those who run away from battle are not believers according to the Quran shareef so unlucky there mate".  I asked you to show me the verse and you quoted Surah Al-Anfal verses 15 and 16.

Before I refute you on this point, I had to expose you on your other lie.  Under the pretext of being busy, you are still to share the alleged hadiths in Sahihain by way of Umar ibn Sa'ad.  All of a sudden, you were not too busy to share these verses to support your argument.  Could it be that there are no reports from ibn Sa'ad in Sahihain?

Returning to the verses you shared, you have made the exact blunder as Hassan Shaytanyari when he made the biggest mistake of his life by calling brother Khobaib Sadat on his show.

The passage opens with "O ye who believe...." so the ones being addressed are believers, not disbelievers.  Furthermore, the verse warns them that deserting the battlefield will draw Allah's (swt) wrath upon them and they will be placed in Hell.  How does that constitute disbelief?  Muslims anger Allah (swt) and we know that sinning Muslims, albeit not permanently, will spend some time in Hellfire before they are taken to Heaven.

To conclude, the verse does not say "those who run away from battle are not believers" so guess whose unlucky now, mate!
« Last Edit: May 16, 2019, 02:01:28 PM by muslim720 »
"Our coward ran from those in authority" - Iceman (admitting the truth regarding his 12th Imam)

iceman

Re: The superiority of the first two caliphs
« Reply #22 on: May 16, 2019, 07:34:20 PM »
O You Who Have Believed, When You Meet Those Who Disbelieve Advancing [For Battle], Do Not Turn To Them Your Backs [In Flight]. And Whoever Turns His Back To Them On Such A Day, Unless Swerving [As A Strategy] For War Or Joining [Another] Company, Has Certainly Returned With Anger [Upon Him] From Allah, And His Refuge Is Hell - And Wretched Is The Destination.” (Al-Anfal: 15-16)

iceman

Re: The superiority of the first two caliphs
« Reply #23 on: May 16, 2019, 08:09:18 PM »
O ye who believe! when ye meet the Unbelievers in hostile array, never turn your backs to them. (Surah Al-Anfal, 15)

If any do turn his back to them on such a day - unless it be in a stratagem of war, or to retreat to a troop (of his own)- he draws on himself the wrath of Allah, and his abode is Hell,- an evil refuge (indeed)! (Surah Al-Anfal, 16)

O ye who believe! what is the matter with you, that, when ye are asked to go forth in the cause of Allah, ye cling heavily to the earth? Do ye prefer the life of this world to the Hereafter? But little is the comfort of this life, as compared with the Hereafter. (Surah At-Tawba, 38)

Unless ye go forth, He will punish you with a grievous penalty, and put others in your place; but Him ye would not harm in the least.For Allah hath power over all things. (Surah At-Tawba, 39)

iceman

Re: The superiority of the first two caliphs
« Reply #24 on: May 16, 2019, 08:43:11 PM »
The Muslim majority are constantly finding ways to defend the companions from blemishes. For this they mount vague defences like ‘Adalat-e-Sahabah’ i.e. the Companions can do no wrong. However, when very obvious wrongs like fleeing from battles (Uhud, Khaibar, Hunain,) is pointed out, they claim that although these were major sins, but Allah has forgiven them so we must also ignore them.

The Muslims attempt to sanitize the companions by claiming they were forgiven for fleeing. The point is when companions were forgiven then it proves they were not Adil, else why would they need forgiveness. And if they were in need of divine forgiveness just like others then how are they superior to Muslims of the past, present and future?

If every fleeing and misdemeanour of the companions is forgiven then what is left for the Muslims to respect and honour in companionship of the Prophet (s.a.w.a.)? The Muslims of later ages who did not slip up in their Islam are decidedly superior even if they did not get the opportunity to spend time in the company of the Prophet (s.a.w.a.).
« Last Edit: May 16, 2019, 08:49:22 PM by iceman »

muslim720

Re: The superiority of the first two caliphs
« Reply #25 on: May 17, 2019, 02:14:59 PM »
O ye who believe! when ye meet the Unbelievers in hostile array, never turn your backs to them. (Surah Al-Anfal, 15)

If any do turn his back to them on such a day - unless it be in a stratagem of war, or to retreat to a troop (of his own)- he draws on himself the wrath of Allah, and his abode is Hell,- an evil refuge (indeed)! (Surah Al-Anfal, 16)

O ye who believe! what is the matter with you, that, when ye are asked to go forth in the cause of Allah, ye cling heavily to the earth? Do ye prefer the life of this world to the Hereafter? But little is the comfort of this life, as compared with the Hereafter. (Surah At-Tawba, 38)

Unless ye go forth, He will punish you with a grievous penalty, and put others in your place; but Him ye would not harm in the least.For Allah hath power over all things. (Surah At-Tawba, 39)

Quick to his defense despite not knowing him.  Birds of the same feather flock together!  Nothing you have quoted says that "those who run away from battle are not believers".  If you were trying to defend Hassan Shaytanyari, that is a different matter.  He was utterly refuted and so will you, like always!
"Our coward ran from those in authority" - Iceman (admitting the truth regarding his 12th Imam)

iceman

Re: The superiority of the first two caliphs
« Reply #26 on: May 17, 2019, 02:39:47 PM »
Quick to his defense despite not knowing him.  Birds of the same feather flock together!  Nothing you have quoted says that "those who run away from battle are not believers".  If you were trying to defend Hassan Shaytanyari, that is a different matter.  He was utterly refuted and so will you, like always!

I know you can't do any better. No one can save the guilty and the wrong no matter how hard we try. It's about time you stepped out of favouritism and taking sides and start being honest and just with yourself and your faith.

muslim720

Re: The superiority of the first two caliphs
« Reply #27 on: May 17, 2019, 03:28:40 PM »
I know you can't do any better. No one can save the guilty and the wrong no matter how hard we try. It's about time you stepped out of favouritism and taking sides and start being honest and just with yourself and your faith.

I cannot do better so why don't you?  Show me explicitly where it says in the Qur'an that "those who run away from battle are not believers". 

While T110 failed to prove Umar (ra) fled during Hunain, I have already proved from the Qur'an - Surah At-Tawbah verses 25 through 27 - that Allah (swt) forgave all who fled during Hunain.

[9:25] Certainly Allah helped you in many battlefields and on the day of Hunain, when your great numbers made you vain, but they availed you nothing and the earth became strait to you notwithstanding its spaciousness, then you turned back retreating.
[9:26] Then Allah sent down His tranquility upon His Messenger and upon the believers, and sent down hosts which you did not see, and chastised those who disbelieved, and that is the reward of the unbelievers.
[9:27] Then will Allah after this turn (mercifully) to whom He pleases, and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

Allah (swt) also forgave those who fled during the Battle of Uhud in Surah Ale Imran verse 155:

"Those of you who turned back on the day the two hosts Met,-it was Satan who caused them to fail, because of some (evil) they had done. But God Has blotted out (their fault): For God is Oft-Forgiving, Most Forbearing."
"Our coward ran from those in authority" - Iceman (admitting the truth regarding his 12th Imam)

iceman

Re: The superiority of the first two caliphs
« Reply #28 on: May 17, 2019, 06:27:22 PM »
I cannot do better so why don't you?  Show me explicitly where it says in the Qur'an that "those who run away from battle are not believers". 

While T110 failed to prove Umar (ra) fled during Hunain, I have already proved from the Qur'an - Surah At-Tawbah verses 25 through 27 - that Allah (swt) forgave all who fled during Hunain.

[9:25] Certainly Allah helped you in many battlefields and on the day of Hunain, when your great numbers made you vain, but they availed you nothing and the earth became strait to you notwithstanding its spaciousness, then you turned back retreating.
[9:26] Then Allah sent down His tranquility upon His Messenger and upon the believers, and sent down hosts which you did not see, and chastised those who disbelieved, and that is the reward of the unbelievers.
[9:27] Then will Allah after this turn (mercifully) to whom He pleases, and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

Allah (swt) also forgave those who fled during the Battle of Uhud in Surah Ale Imran verse 155:

"Those of you who turned back on the day the two hosts Met,-it was Satan who caused them to fail, because of some (evil) they had done. But God Has blotted out (their fault): For God is Oft-Forgiving, Most Forbearing."

"While T110 failed to prove Umar (ra) fled during Hunain"

Did Umar flee during any other battle? Was he so brave and courageous that he didn't flee at all.

"Allah (swt) also forgave those who fled during the Battle of Uhud in Surah Ale Imran verse 155"

Ok, so how are they superior to and than those who didn't flee? Come on man, give it a rest by accepting reality.

iceman

Re: The superiority of the first two caliphs
« Reply #29 on: May 17, 2019, 07:33:03 PM »
I cannot do better so why don't you?  Show me explicitly where it says in the Qur'an that "those who run away from battle are not believers". 

While T110 failed to prove Umar (ra) fled during Hunain, I have already proved from the Qur'an - Surah At-Tawbah verses 25 through 27 - that Allah (swt) forgave all who fled during Hunain.

[9:25] Certainly Allah helped you in many battlefields and on the day of Hunain, when your great numbers made you vain, but they availed you nothing and the earth became strait to you notwithstanding its spaciousness, then you turned back retreating.
[9:26] Then Allah sent down His tranquility upon His Messenger and upon the believers, and sent down hosts which you did not see, and chastised those who disbelieved, and that is the reward of the unbelievers.
[9:27] Then will Allah after this turn (mercifully) to whom He pleases, and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

Allah (swt) also forgave those who fled during the Battle of Uhud in Surah Ale Imran verse 155:

"Those of you who turned back on the day the two hosts Met,-it was Satan who caused them to fail, because of some (evil) they had done. But God Has blotted out (their fault): For God is Oft-Forgiving, Most Forbearing."

This is what Allah says about those who flee from battle.

"If any do turn his back to them on such a day - unless it be in a stratagem of war, or to retreat to a troop (of his own)- he draws on himself the wrath of Allah, and his abode is Hell,- an evil refuge (indeed)!"(Surah Al-Anfal, 16)

And those that flee or have fled, wouldn't you at least call them cowards. And how can they be better than others.

"Show me explicitly where it says in the Qur'an that "those who run away from battle are not believers". 

Show me where and when I said or made a claim that they were not believers or became disbelievers because of fleeing.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2019, 07:38:17 PM by iceman »

muslim720

Re: The superiority of the first two caliphs
« Reply #30 on: May 17, 2019, 09:16:43 PM »
Show me where and when I said or made a claim that they were not believers or became disbelievers because of fleeing.

My challenge was to T110 who made that very claim.  Next time, try to learn the context of an issue before you stick your nose in it.
"Our coward ran from those in authority" - Iceman (admitting the truth regarding his 12th Imam)

T110

Re: The superiority of the first two caliphs
« Reply #31 on: May 18, 2019, 03:55:15 PM »
My challenge was to T110 who made that very claim.  Next time, try to learn the context of an issue before you stick your nose in it.

And whoever turns his back to them on such a day, unless swerving [as a strategy] for war or joining [another] company, has certainly returned with anger [upon him] from Allah, and his refuge is Hell - and wretched is the destination.

Never knew 'beleivers' could go to hell, espescially those who are superior to Ali (AS), the one who never prostrated to any idols.

iceman

Re: The superiority of the first two caliphs
« Reply #32 on: May 18, 2019, 04:59:11 PM »
My challenge was to T110 who made that very claim.  Next time, try to learn the context of an issue before you stick your nose in it.

This is what you said to me in post #27,

:I cannot do better so why don't you?  Show me explicitly where it says in the Qur'an that "those who run away from battle are not believers"

So now do I still need tol earn the context of an issue before you stick your nose in it. Your challenge wasn't just to him but it was directed to me as well. Get your facts right before shooting your mouth off like that. Because it doesn't make you look good.

muslim720

Re: The superiority of the first two caliphs
« Reply #33 on: May 19, 2019, 06:21:57 AM »
And whoever turns his back to them on such a day, unless swerving [as a strategy] for war or joining [another] company, has certainly returned with anger [upon him] from Allah, and his refuge is Hell - and wretched is the destination.

Never knew 'beleivers' could go to hell, espescially those who are superior to Ali (AS), the one who never prostrated to any idols.

You can try in vain to save face or just apologize for lying upon the Qur'an.  No where does it say that deserting the battlefield constitutes disbelief.  On the contrary, I showed how Allah (swt) has already forgiven those who fled during Hunain and Uhud.
"Our coward ran from those in authority" - Iceman (admitting the truth regarding his 12th Imam)

T110

Re: The superiority of the first two caliphs
« Reply #34 on: May 20, 2019, 05:48:03 AM »
You can try in vain to save face or just apologize for lying upon the Qur'an.  No where does it say that deserting the battlefield constitutes disbelief.  On the contrary, I showed how Allah (swt) has already forgiven those who fled during Hunain and Uhud.

That sakina (divine tranquility) and foregiveness was for only the believers amonst the army and the Prophet (SAWW) himself ofcourse.

muslim720

Re: The superiority of the first two caliphs
« Reply #35 on: May 20, 2019, 01:49:31 PM »
That sakina (divine tranquility) and foregiveness was for only the believers amonst the army and the Prophet (SAWW) himself ofcourse.

And as show, Allah's (swt) forgiveness stayed with those who fled battlefields (Hunain and Uhud).  Now, time for you to show us proof for your claim. 
"Our coward ran from those in authority" - Iceman (admitting the truth regarding his 12th Imam)

iceman

Re: The superiority of the first two caliphs
« Reply #36 on: May 20, 2019, 04:54:06 PM »
And as show, Allah's (swt) forgiveness stayed with those who fled battlefields (Hunain and Uhud).  Now, time for you to show us proof for your claim.

"And as show, Allah's (swt) forgiveness stayed with those who fled battlefields (Hunain and Uhud)"

So how are they superior than those who didn't flee. There are two categories, those who are BRAVE and those who are COWARDS. Which category would you put those who fled? Or would you create a different category to protect and save their reputation.

Allah forgave them, how does this mean their reputation, character and honour is the same as the others, let alone being superior than others, which is out of the question to begin with.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2019, 05:01:12 PM by iceman »

muslim720

Re: The superiority of the first two caliphs
« Reply #37 on: May 20, 2019, 05:32:06 PM »
So how are they superior than those who didn't flee.

Ranking the Sahaba (ra) based on their performance on the battlefield is not the point being discussed.

Quote
There are two categories, those who are BRAVE and those who are COWARDS. Which category would you put those who fled?

According to the Qur'an, both parties are forgiven and Allah (swt) will admit them to Paradise.

Quote
Or would you create a different category to protect and save their reputation.

You asked "which category would you put those who fled" and then accuse me of trying to save reputation?  For anyone with an ounce of honesty, it is clear that you are trying to create categories to save the reputation of your ideology but failing.  Actually, you are trying to salvage T110's.

Quote
Allah forgave them, how does this mean their reputation, character and honour is the same as the others, let alone being superior than others, which is out of the question to begin with.

If you had learned anything from the Qur'an, you would know not to run your mouth after Allah (swt) has sealed a matter.  Wallaahi, the Shias emulate Iblees; despite clear-cut, explicit instructions from Allah (swt), Shias just can't give up.  They have to put their own ego ahead of Allah's (swt) Word.

Iblees posed the question as to how can the one created from clay be superior to the one made from fire?  Shias ask how can the ones who fled be on the same pedestal as those who remained and fought. 

Your misguidance is from the very get-go, never mind the fact that you cannot even establish that Umar (ra) fled.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2019, 05:33:42 PM by muslim720 »
"Our coward ran from those in authority" - Iceman (admitting the truth regarding his 12th Imam)


iceman

Re: The superiority of the first two caliphs
« Reply #39 on: June 04, 2019, 07:12:37 PM »
Ranking the Sahaba (ra) based on their performance on the battlefield is not the point being discussed.

According to the Qur'an, both parties are forgiven and Allah (swt) will admit them to Paradise.

You asked "which category would you put those who fled" and then accuse me of trying to save reputation?  For anyone with an ounce of honesty, it is clear that you are trying to create categories to save the reputation of your ideology but failing.  Actually, you are trying to salvage T110's.

If you had learned anything from the Qur'an, you would know not to run your mouth after Allah (swt) has sealed a matter.  Wallaahi, the Shias emulate Iblees; despite clear-cut, explicit instructions from Allah (swt), Shias just can't give up.  They have to put their own ego ahead of Allah's (swt) Word.

Iblees posed the question as to how can the one created from clay be superior to the one made from fire?  Shias ask how can the ones who fled be on the same pedestal as those who remained and fought. 

Your misguidance is from the very get-go, never mind the fact that you cannot even establish that Umar (ra) fled.

Why are you soooo embarrassed to give a straightforward answer. A clear and cut answer.

"Ranking the Sahaba (ra) based on their performance on the battlefield is not the point being discussed"

We're not ranking the Sahaba. Those who fled from the battlefield to save their lives like cowards and those who stood firm and bravely fought not worrying about their lives, there is an absolute clear cut difference. Not that being a coward and fleeing is a crime or fault. Just want to make that clear.

"According to the Qur'an, both parties are forgiven and Allah (swt) will admit them to Paradise"

Both parties are forgiven? 😀 What do you mean by BOTH PARTIES? What, those who flee and those who didn't are both forgiven? What was the mistake of those who didn't flee? Why did they need forgiving? 😀 This is becoming a joke.

 

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