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Turbah: Sajdah to the Imams*

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Sheriff.shatterz

Turbah: Sajdah to the Imams*
« on: July 10, 2016, 09:56:20 AM »
*Turbah: Sajdah to the Imams*

The Shia place a piece of  clay, known as *“Turbah,”* on the ground so that their forehead touches the clay when they prostrate themselves in prayer. The Turbahs are made out of the clay from the shrines of Imams or saints. Often times, the Turbah is made from the clay of Imam Hussain’s shrine. The Shia Ulema have declared that no Turbah has a higher sacredness than a Turbah made from Imam Hussain’s shrine, not even the stone from the Holy Ka’abah.

By praying to clay made from the shrines of their Imams and saints, the Shia are practising a *polythiestic and paganistic* act of *grave-worshipping;* they are quite literally making Sajood (prostration) to the Imams or saints. Indeed, praying to the Turbah of these Imams and saints is *Bidah* (evil innovation) and *Shirk;* it is not much different than *idol worshipping.* What is the difference between the idol that Hindus do Sujood to and the Turbah that the Shia do Sujood to? Both are considered Waseelah to bring them closer to God, and both of them are prostrated to.

*Shi’ism is rooted in Shirk; the Shia have allowed their so-called love for the Imams translate into polythiestic adoration*

Husayn

Re: Turbah: Sajdah to the Imams*
« Reply #1 on: July 10, 2016, 11:19:23 AM »
You'll often find that these turbahs have the names of their 12 Imams written on them as well.

إن يتبعون إلا الظن وما تهوى الأنفس

Husayn

Re: Turbah: Sajdah to the Imams*
« Reply #2 on: July 10, 2016, 12:16:03 PM »
Infact the whole issue of prostration on a turbah is a great example of the deviancy of the Twelver sect.

They are adamant that this is proven by Sunni ahadith.

They have raised this issue to the level of 'adeedah. To that we simply say:

If you could prove this in Sunni ahadith, then you are free to adopt this practice as a matter of fiqh and sunnah. Come, establish another madhhab and adopt this as a ruling.

It is that simple for us.

Now, we reject their evidences simply because they are based on deviant interpretations.

They cite this hadith as proof:

Quote
Narrated Abu Sa`id Al-Khudri:

I saw Allah's Messenger (saws) prostrating in mud and water and saw the mark of mud on his forehead.

Sahih al-Bukhari Vol. 1, Book 12, Hadith 798

Ahlul Sunnah understanding:

  • You may pray in the mud.
  • You should not rub your head or body until you have finished prayer.

Twelver interpretation:

  • You must always pray in the mud, or something from the mud or earth.
  • Praying in the mud or earth is better than praying on anything else.

See how deviant this interpretation is - compared with the straight forward understanding of Ahlul Sunnah?

Now, they are not content with leaving it at this. They insist on excelling in deviancy.

Their ahadith state:

Quote
من لا يحضره الفقيه

باب ما يسجد عليه وما لا يسجد عليه

السجود على طين قبر الحسين عليه السلام ينور إلى الارض السابعة(2) "
 
Man la yahrudhul faqih

Door of what may be prostrated on and what may not be prostrated on

Hadith 829

"Sadiq (as): Prostration on the clay from the grave of al-Husayn (as) radiates light to the seventh earth."

http://www.mezan.net/books/manlayahdraho/fakeeh1/maktaba/kotob/hadith/fakeeh1/html/ara/books/faqih/faqih-1/a42.html

Not even the grave of the Prophet (saws), but the grave of al-Husayn (ra)!

This is simply clear cut bid'a (innovation). When did the Prophet (saws) ever mention this? When did he ever even perform this action?

And what's more - as above, they imprint these tablets with the names of their Imams.

They have gone from simple bid'a and are now approaching pure shirk.
إن يتبعون إلا الظن وما تهوى الأنفس

learning boy

Re: Turbah: Sajdah to the Imams*
« Reply #3 on: July 11, 2016, 01:04:06 AM »
Salam friends,

Why do we call Shii'tes mushrikeen for praying on a piece of stone, but no one bats an eye when we all pray to a big cube rock with a black cloth on it? They both signify the same thing.

The turba is a stone, it is only a stone, and it will always be a stone. What shi'ites tend to do however is they choose the best type of soil (turab) , that being the plains and ground of which the prophet and the ahlebayt used to walk on. Although that does not seem horrible, what is deemed inappropriete is writing names and ascribing names to them. This is why you will see in many shi'ite mosques and households that they scratch out all types of words and symbols on a Turbat. It is only a stone, nothing else to it.

muslim720

Re: Turbah: Sajdah to the Imams*
« Reply #4 on: July 11, 2016, 06:11:34 PM »
Forget the sajdah to Imams [ra] bit, when they quote our narrations in favor of prostrating on soil, I ask them if they know the points of sajdah.  There are 7.  One of those 7 points is the face (nose plus forehead).  Unless the turbah is by the size of a small plate, the Shias end up touching the turbah with their forehead only.  So out of the 7 points of sajdah, they only fulfill 1 (actually half...coz only their foreheads come in contact with the turbah, not nose)!

The remaining six points - palms, kneecaps and toes - come in contact with the prayer rug which, for the most part, is made of cotton.  Just like paper is derived from trees, and Shias consider it permissible to prostrate on paper, cotton is grown on trees.  So where is the issue?

After I explain it like that, I bring Shias back to the main point: they do not want to admit it but they really want to prostrate on the soil of Karbala because it is holier to them than any other soil.  Considering that there is no such declaration in Islam, this becomes bid'a!
"Our coward ran from those in authority" - Iceman (admitting the truth regarding his 12th Imam)

learning boy

Re: Turbah: Sajdah to the Imams*
« Reply #5 on: July 11, 2016, 11:24:47 PM »
Hello muslim720,

as per reference from asktheshiekh.com, we have this question and exerpt :
_________________________________________________________________________________
1. TheEarth is a Place of Prostration

There is a narration narrated in Sahih Muslim and Sahih Bukhari, as well as the Shia books, where the Prophet (pbuh) says:

“The earth is made for me as place of prostration and purification.”

(Bukhari1:209, Muslim 1:371, Wasa’elu-Shi’a 3:423)

From this narration, we understand that when we prostrate, it should be on ‘earth’ or something directly from the earth. This includes soil, sand, pebbles and minerals (except gold and silver). It also includes paper and leaves from trees because they grow from the earth. (Tissue is probably the last option if nothing else is available).

The other condition is that the thing we pray on must not be wearable or edible. Therefore, we cannot pray on leaves from plants which are edible or from which clothes can be made (e.g. cotton).

Imam al-Sadiq (as) says:

“Prostration is only allowed on earth or things that are from the earth, except those things which can be worn or consumed”. (Wasailul Shia, 3:591)

2. Why we do not pray on Carpet?

We do not pray on carpet because it is not earth and is not made from earth. The above narration says that we should pray on the earth, and therefore carpet is no something we can pray on. This is confirmed by other narrations. Abu Said al-Khudri narrates about the Prophet:

“We were in the mosque and the roof of the mosque was made of date palm branches so that we could not see up into the sky. One day it rained heavily. The Prophet (pbuh) led the prayer with us, so much so that I saw the marks of the mud on the forehead of the Prophet (pbuh…” (Bukhari, 2:386)

A’isha narrates:

“The Prophet (pbuh) never placed anything between his forehead and the earth…”

(Mosnad Imam Ahmad, 6:58)

At the time of the Prophet, carpets did exist and if the Prophet (pbuh) wished, he could have prayed on a carpet or laid the mosque’s floor with carpet. However, this never happened.


3. Narrations about the Straw Mat

We also have many narrations from Sunni sources that the Prophet (pbuh) would have a small straw square that he would prostrate on. It seems that when it was too hot to place one’s forehead on the soil, the Prophet would use a straw mat to prostrate on. As this is made from trees, it is considered a product of the earth.

Um Salama: ‘The Prophet would pray on a small strawmat’.

Anas: ‘The Prophet would pray on a straw mat’.

(Bukhari, 1:231)

Therefore, it is at least a precaution to avoid praying on carpet as the Prophet (pbuh) did not ever do this. Imam al-Sadiq (as) says:

“I prefer that he prostrates on the earth. The Messenger of Allah (pbuh) used to like to place his forehead on the earth. I like for you what the Messenger of Allah (pbuh) used to like.”

(WasailulShia)

______________________________________________________________________________

This should be able to give you sufficient reason for allowing the prayer on a Turbah and why Shi'ite belief negates the allowing of praying on things like prayer mats, rugs, etc.

As for my own side note, you say

Forget the sajdah to Imams [ra] bit, when they quote our narrations in favor of prostrating on soil, I ask them if they know the points of sajdah.  There are 7.  One of those 7 points is the face (nose plus forehead).  Unless the turbah is by the size of a small plate, the Shias end up touching the turbah with their forehead only.  So out of the 7 points of sajdah, they only fulfill 1 (actually half...coz only their foreheads come in contact with the turbah, not nose)!

The remaining six points - palms, kneecaps and toes - come in contact with the prayer rug which, for the most part, is made of cotton.  Just like paper is derived from trees, and Shias consider it permissible to prostrate on paper, cotton is grown on trees.  So where is the issue?


I am sure you do not seriously consider the nose and the forehead the same point? What is the reasoning behind this? This is the first time I heard a sunni actually say that the touching of the nose is actually PART of the prayer. If we say this, then we would actually have 18 places of contact, rather then only 7; this is if you count the fingers on the hand part of contact? If you do not count the fingers on your hand as separate parts, why do we consider the forehead and nose the same part ?

Narrated Ibn `Abbas: The Prophet(saw) said, “I have been ordered to prostrate on seven bones i.e. on the forehead along with the tip of the nose and the Prophet pointed towards his nose, both hands, both knees and the toes of both feet and not to gather the clothes or the hair.”(Sahih al-Bukhari #812)

The nose does not have a bone at it's tip? It is cartilage, a part of flesh that can be contorted. It has no contact with bone. Not even that, the lower and middle part of the nose is cartilage as well! See this brother http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/broken-nose/multimedia/locations-of-the-nasal-bone-and-cartilage/img-20007155

I can only assume the part ' tip of the nose and the Prophet pointed towards his nose' in the bukhari narration is inconsistent, as two very prominent sunni madthabs disagree with it as well:

( Ash-Shawkānī said: ‘‘Ulamah differed regarding the obligation of prostrating oneself on the seven bones: Al-’Itratu and Ash-Shāfi‘ī in one of his opinions held that it is an obligation that one prostrates oneself on the seven bones. Abū Hanifah and Ash-Shāfi‘ī later on and other Fuqahā’ held that the obligation is to prostrate oneself on one’s forehead only.)

 But the only problem is that the only bone in your nose is too high up to touch in prostration. The only possibility with that is if you squished your entire face to the ground, which is very uncomfortable( I tried lol )  and we do not see that happening, even with sunni brothers.

muslim720

Re: Turbah: Sajdah to the Imams*
« Reply #6 on: July 12, 2016, 01:49:51 PM »

Narrated Ibn `Abbas: The Prophet(saw) said, “I have been ordered to prostrate on seven bones i.e. on the forehead along with the tip of the nose and the Prophet pointed towards his nose, both hands, both knees and the toes of both feet and not to gather the clothes or the hair.”(Sahih al-Bukhari #812)

The nose does not have a bone at it's tip? It is cartilage, a part of flesh that can be contorted. It has no contact with bone. Not even that, the lower and middle part of the nose is cartilage as well! See this brother http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/broken-nose/multimedia/locations-of-the-nasal-bone-and-cartilage/img-20007155

I can only assume the part ' tip of the nose and the Prophet pointed towards his nose' in the bukhari narration is inconsistent, as two very prominent sunni madthabs disagree with it as well:

( Ash-Shawkānī said: ‘‘Ulamah differed regarding the obligation of prostrating oneself on the seven bones: Al-’Itratu and Ash-Shāfi‘ī in one of his opinions held that it is an obligation that one prostrates oneself on the seven bones. Abū Hanifah and Ash-Shāfi‘ī later on and other Fuqahā’ held that the obligation is to prostrate oneself on one’s forehead only.)

Your entire post is a direct reflection of ShiaPen's article so to save myself time and hassle, I will share with you the response to that article.

https://youpuncturedtheark.wordpress.com/2014/12/10/sunni-answers-to-shiapen-prostrating-on-turbah/

I, however, would like to add that you are right in pointing out that nose is cartilage which is why the Prophet [saw] said, "....on the forehead along with the tip of the nose and the Prophet pointed towards his nose...."  He [saw] mentioned the bone (forehead) and added the nose to the equation.  Notice how he [saw] said seven bones; if you count nose as a "bone", you have eight.  Therefore, he [saw] was not referring to nose as "bone" and hence, it is clear that there are "seven bones" that partake in sajdah.  The tip of the nose is added to the seven bones to complete our sajdah.

Any scholar can put it whichever way they want but there is not a man worth the name whose words we hold in higher regards than the words and practices of the Prophet [saw].....something not many of our Shia brothers can boast!
« Last Edit: July 12, 2016, 01:52:06 PM by muslim720 »
"Our coward ran from those in authority" - Iceman (admitting the truth regarding his 12th Imam)

ShiaMan

Re: Turbah: Sajdah to the Imams*
« Reply #7 on: July 12, 2016, 07:29:13 PM »
have you noticed that we shia pray directly on marble without the need for turbah?

The point is not soil but any natural occurring thing such as leaf, stone (natural like marble; not porcelain for example), brick, and yes clay too.

Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: Turbah: Sajdah to the Imams*
« Reply #8 on: July 13, 2016, 01:12:30 AM »

Narrated Ibn `Abbas: The Prophet(saw) said, “I have been ordered to prostrate on seven bones i.e. on the forehead along with the tip of the nose and the Prophet pointed towards his nose, both hands, both knees and the toes of both feet and not to gather the clothes or the hair.”(Sahih al-Bukhari #812)

The nose does not have a bone at it's tip? It is cartilage, a part of flesh that can be contorted. It has no contact with bone. Not even that, the lower and middle part of the nose is cartilage as well! See this brother http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/broken-nose/multimedia/locations-of-the-nasal-bone-and-cartilage/img-20007155

I can only assume the part ' tip of the nose and the Prophet pointed towards his nose' in the bukhari narration is inconsistent, as two very prominent sunni madthabs disagree with it as well:

( Ash-Shawkānī said: ‘‘Ulamah differed regarding the obligation of prostrating oneself on the seven bones: Al-’Itratu and Ash-Shāfi‘ī in one of his opinions held that it is an obligation that one prostrates oneself on the seven bones. Abū Hanifah and Ash-Shāfi‘ī later on and other Fuqahā’ held that the obligation is to prostrate oneself on one’s forehead only.)

Your entire post is a direct reflection of ShiaPen's article so to save myself time and hassle, I will share with you the response to that article.

https://youpuncturedtheark.wordpress.com/2014/12/10/sunni-answers-to-shiapen-prostrating-on-turbah/

I, however, would like to add that you are right in pointing out that nose is cartilage which is why the Prophet [saw] said, "....on the forehead along with the tip of the nose and the Prophet pointed towards his nose...."  He [saw] mentioned the bone (forehead) and added the nose to the equation.  Notice how he [saw] said seven bones; if you count nose as a "bone", you have eight.  Therefore, he [saw] was not referring to nose as "bone" and hence, it is clear that there are "seven bones" that partake in sajdah.  The tip of the nose is added to the seven bones to complete our sajdah.

Any scholar can put it whichever way they want but there is not a man worth the name whose words we hold in higher regards than the words and practices of the Prophet [saw].....something not many of our Shia brothers can boast!

Indeed the link you provided, does refute all the arguments raised by learning boy. Infact I find him halfquoting some texts from the same article.

ShiaMan

Re: Turbah: Sajdah to the Imams*
« Reply #9 on: July 13, 2016, 03:42:26 AM »

Narrated Ibn `Abbas: The Prophet(saw) said, “I have been ordered to prostrate on seven bones i.e. on the forehead along with the tip of the nose and the Prophet pointed towards his nose, both hands, both knees and the toes of both feet and not to gather the clothes or the hair.”(Sahih al-Bukhari #812)

The nose does not have a bone at it's tip? It is cartilage, a part of flesh that can be contorted. It has no contact with bone. Not even that, the lower and middle part of the nose is cartilage as well! See this brother http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/broken-nose/multimedia/locations-of-the-nasal-bone-and-cartilage/img-20007155

I can only assume the part ' tip of the nose and the Prophet pointed towards his nose' in the bukhari narration is inconsistent, as two very prominent sunni madthabs disagree with it as well:

( Ash-Shawkānī said: ‘‘Ulamah differed regarding the obligation of prostrating oneself on the seven bones: Al-’Itratu and Ash-Shāfi‘ī in one of his opinions held that it is an obligation that one prostrates oneself on the seven bones. Abū Hanifah and Ash-Shāfi‘ī later on and other Fuqahā’ held that the obligation is to prostrate oneself on one’s forehead only.)

Your entire post is a direct reflection of ShiaPen's article so to save myself time and hassle, I will share with you the response to that article.

https://youpuncturedtheark.wordpress.com/2014/12/10/sunni-answers-to-shiapen-prostrating-on-turbah/

I, however, would like to add that you are right in pointing out that nose is cartilage which is why the Prophet [saw] said, "....on the forehead along with the tip of the nose and the Prophet pointed towards his nose...."  He [saw] mentioned the bone (forehead) and added the nose to the equation.  Notice how he [saw] said seven bones; if you count nose as a "bone", you have eight.  Therefore, he [saw] was not referring to nose as "bone" and hence, it is clear that there are "seven bones" that partake in sajdah.  The tip of the nose is added to the seven bones to complete our sajdah.

Any scholar can put it whichever way they want but there is not a man worth the name whose words we hold in higher regards than the words and practices of the Prophet [saw].....something not many of our Shia brothers can boast!

Indeed the link you provided, does refute all the arguments raised by learning boy. Infact I find him halfquoting some texts from the same article.

Is a Saniah really a sajjad unless the forehead is touching the ground? There is no ruling about nose - either way.

muslim720

Re: Turbah: Sajdah to the Imams*
« Reply #10 on: July 13, 2016, 11:52:35 AM »
have you noticed that we shia pray directly on marble without the need for turbah?

The point is not soil but any natural occurring thing such as leaf, stone (natural like marble; not porcelain for example), brick, and yes clay too.

Have you not read my other posts stating that I frequent Shia mosques?  So I know what you are telling me.  But I also know that there is a lot of stress placed on the soil of Karbala, more than the soil of Mecca, Madina or anywhere else.  In your mosques, I never see anyone praying on marbles.  It is always "soil" in the form of turbah from Karbala.  Shias substitute it with paper or leaf when they forget their turbah or do not have access to one so it is a backup plan, not the go-to option.

But let me ask you this.  How come you forgot to add cotton to your list?  Paper does not grow on trees; it is processed.  But cotton grows on trees and what exceptions, if any, would you have against prayer rug made of cotton?

Finally, you and our other Shia brother here are so occupied with the nose and forehead that you are forgetting the other remaining six "bones".  When you make sajdah, your palms make contact with the prayer rug, your knees are covered by your clothing and your toes are on the prayer rug too.  Even if I concede the nose part, you are only fulfilling one "bone" (the forehead) coming in contact with soil.

Either have 7 turbahs - stand on two, two for your knees, another two for your palms and one for your face - or pray on bare ground to fulfill the requirements of sajdah.  See how ridiculous that sounds?  Are you still wondering why Sunnis (who know the basics of Islam) laugh at your practices and do not take you all seriously?
"Our coward ran from those in authority" - Iceman (admitting the truth regarding his 12th Imam)

Husayn

Re: Turbah: Sajdah to the Imams*
« Reply #11 on: July 13, 2016, 12:43:33 PM »
The Shi'a stand on a carpet, place a stone on it, touch their heads to it, and then state "we are praying on earth".

It's almost an act of self-mockery.

Quote
This should be able to give you sufficient reason for allowing the prayer on a Turbah and why Shi'ite belief negates the allowing of praying on things like prayer mats, rugs, etc.

See what happens when you blindly C&P.

You guys do indeed pray on carpets and rugs. Your mosques are all carpeted.

If you were serious about praying on the earth your mosques would all be filled with dirt, not nice rugs.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2016, 12:45:51 PM by Husayn »
إن يتبعون إلا الظن وما تهوى الأنفس

ShiaMan

Re: Turbah: Sajdah to the Imams*
« Reply #12 on: July 13, 2016, 04:24:23 PM »

Have you not read my other posts stating that I frequent Shia mosques?  So I know what you are telling me.  But I also know that there is a lot of stress placed on the soil of Karbala, more than the soil of Mecca, Madina or anywhere else.  In your mosques, I never see anyone praying on marbles.  It is always "soil" in the form of turbah from Karbala.  Shias substitute it with paper or leaf when they forget their turbah or do not have access to one so it is a backup plan, not the go-to option.

But let me ask you this.  How come you forgot to add cotton to your list?  Paper does not grow on trees; it is processed.  But cotton grows on trees and what exceptions, if any, would you have against prayer rug made of cotton?

Finally, you and our other Shia brother here are so occupied with the nose and forehead that you are forgetting the other remaining six "bones".  When you make sajdah, your palms make contact with the prayer rug, your knees are covered by your clothing and your toes are on the prayer rug too.  Even if I concede the nose part, you are only fulfilling one "bone" (the forehead) coming in contact with soil.

Either have 7 turbahs - stand on two, two for your knees, another two for your palms and one for your face - or pray on bare ground to fulfill the requirements of sajdah.  See how ridiculous that sounds?  Are you still wondering why Sunnis (who know the basics of Islam) laugh at your practices and do not take you all seriously?

Easy there tiger.

we are in agreement that nose is irrelevant to the discussion.

Back to my question - if the 6 points are touching the ground and not the forehead, then am I in sajdah? No! The forehead is the most essential part of the sajdah and hence it is required to touch a naturally occurring thing.

Next anything which is clothing or can be part of clothing is also not permissible or should i say preferable such as cotton, silk, etc.

Now, if you insist that just having 6 points touching the ground is enough for sajdah, then the shias are completely wrong and I will stop praying on the turbah immediately.

But if you have common sense and agree that touching the forehead to the ground is the most essential part of the sajdah, then I am sorry to say you lack in minimalist Islamic concepts.


Read above. perhaps in your hatred for the shia, you have lost all common sense there is. A sajdah is not a sajdah unless the forehead touches the ground.
The Shi'a stand on a carpet, place a stone on it, touch their heads to it, and then state "we are praying on earth".

It's almost an act of self-mockery.

Quote
This should be able to give you sufficient reason for allowing the prayer on a Turbah and why Shi'ite belief negates the allowing of praying on things like prayer mats, rugs, etc.

See what happens when you blindly C&P.

You guys do indeed pray on carpets and rugs. Your mosques are all carpeted.

If you were serious about praying on the earth your mosques would all be filled with dirt, not nice rugs.

muslim720

Re: Turbah: Sajdah to the Imams*
« Reply #13 on: July 13, 2016, 05:44:05 PM »
we are in agreement that nose is irrelevant to the discussion.

There is a difference between agreeing and conceding.  I conceded the nose part to prove that your practice still falls short of what you preach.

Quote
Back to my question - if the 6 points are touching the ground and not the forehead, then am I in sajdah? No! The forehead is the most essential part of the sajdah and hence it is required to touch a naturally occurring thing.

Why are Shias so good in logical fallacies?  Even if I agree that the forehead is the most essential part of sajdah - though the Prophet [saw] mentioned seven "bones" and added the nose to the equation and the seven points of sajdah are also accepted by Shias - how do you go from "forehead is the most essential part of the sajdah" to "hence it is required to touch a naturally occurring thing"?

You have not proven that forehead is the most essential part and you are extrapolating your misguidance to making a naturally occurring thing required for sajdah.

To answer your question, you can have your forehead, palms, knees and toes on the ground and if your nose is dangling in the air - like it happens with Shias when they use turbah (unless the turbah is by the size of a small plate which it almost never is) - your sajdah is invalid.  If your forehead and nose, palms, knees and one toe touches the ground and you lift one of your toes, your sajdah is invalid. 

I hope I clarified it for you.

Quote
Next anything which is clothing or can be part of clothing is also not permissible or should i say preferable such as cotton, silk, etc.

Why?  Does cotton not grow on trees?  How can your madhhab accept paper (which is processed) for sajdah but not cotton?  And you have the nerve to doubt my common sense.

Quote
Now, if you insist that just having 6 points touching the ground is enough for sajdah, then the shias are completely wrong and I will stop praying on the turbah immediately.

The Prophet [saw] mentioned seven "bones" along with the nose in order for your sajdah to be valid.  I am surprised that you are willing to listen to me if I insist but you have been disobeying the Prophet [saw] and lying in his name for the last 14-plus centuries.

Quote
But if you have common sense and agree that touching the forehead to the ground is the most essential part of the sajdah, then I am sorry to say you lack in minimalist Islamic concepts.

Please educate yourself with common factors between both Shias and Sunnis.  The "seven bones" is a common denominator.  But it is funny that you are willing to bring your forehead in contact with soil while you leave your nose hanging the remaining "six bones" come in contact with carpet or prayer rug.
"Our coward ran from those in authority" - Iceman (admitting the truth regarding his 12th Imam)

ShiaMan

Re: Turbah: Sajdah to the Imams*
« Reply #14 on: July 13, 2016, 05:57:23 PM »
we are in agreement that nose is irrelevant to the discussion.

There is a difference between agreeing and conceding.  I conceded the nose part to prove that your practice still falls short of what you preach.

Quote
Back to my question - if the 6 points are touching the ground and not the forehead, then am I in sajdah? No! The forehead is the most essential part of the sajdah and hence it is required to touch a naturally occurring thing.

Why are Shias so good in logical fallacies?  Even if I agree that the forehead is the most essential part of sajdah - though the Prophet [saw] mentioned seven "bones" and added the nose to the equation and the seven points of sajdah are also accepted by Shias - how do you go from "forehead is the most essential part of the sajdah" to "hence it is required to touch a naturally occurring thing"?

You have not proven that forehead is the most essential part and you are extrapolating your misguidance to making a naturally occurring thing required for sajdah.

To answer your question, you can have your forehead, palms, knees and toes on the ground and if your nose is dangling in the air - like it happens with Shias when they use turbah (unless the turbah is by the size of a small plate which it almost never is) - your sajdah is invalid.  If your forehead and nose, palms, knees and one toe touches the ground and you lift one of your toes, your sajdah is invalid. 

I hope I clarified it for you.

Quote
Next anything which is clothing or can be part of clothing is also not permissible or should i say preferable such as cotton, silk, etc.

Why?  Does cotton not grow on trees?  How can your madhhab accept paper (which is processed) for sajdah but not cotton?  And you have the nerve to doubt my common sense.

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Now, if you insist that just having 6 points touching the ground is enough for sajdah, then the shias are completely wrong and I will stop praying on the turbah immediately.

The Prophet [saw] mentioned seven "bones" along with the nose in order for your sajdah to be valid.  I am surprised that you are willing to listen to me if I insist but you have been disobeying the Prophet [saw] and lying in his name for the last 14-plus centuries.

Quote
But if you have common sense and agree that touching the forehead to the ground is the most essential part of the sajdah, then I am sorry to say you lack in minimalist Islamic concepts.

Please educate yourself with common factors between both Shias and Sunnis.  The "seven bones" is a common denominator.  But it is funny that you are willing to bring your forehead in contact with soil while you leave your nose hanging the remaining "six bones" come in contact with carpet or prayer rug.

Let's start with the basics with you. the 7 points are big toes, knees, palms (that is 6) and the 7th is the forehead and not the face. Because if it was the face, you cheeks and chins would also have to touch the ground. The nose may or may not be mustahab but it is definitely not wajib.

Now I will ask again, am I in sajdah if my toes, knees and palms are touching the ground but not my forehead? Yes/No.

ShiaMan

Re: Turbah: Sajdah to the Imams*
« Reply #15 on: July 13, 2016, 06:00:08 PM »

muslim720

Re: Turbah: Sajdah to the Imams*
« Reply #16 on: July 13, 2016, 06:34:16 PM »
Let's start with the basics with you. the 7 points are big toes, knees, palms (that is 6) and the 7th is the forehead and not the face. Because if it was the face, you cheeks and chins would also have to touch the ground. The nose may or may not be mustahab but it is definitely not wajib.

No one said "the face".  But the Prophet [saw] mentioned the nose after mentioning the forehead.  And while at it, he [saw] did not say "mustahab but it is definitely not wajib".  The Prophet [saw] included the nose.  If you do not like it and prefer to make prostration on a turbah that leaves your nose hanging, then you have a problem with the Prophet [saw] not me.

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Now I will ask again, am I in sajdah if my toes, knees and palms are touching the ground but not my forehead? Yes/No.

No but you are also not in sajdah if everything touches the ground but not your nose.  Your sajdah is invalid even if your toes are lifted off the ground as I stated in my previous post but you, like many other Shias I have dealt with, want a "yes or no" so as to strait-jacket me into a favorable situation.  Keep trying!  You'll only tighten the noose around your own neck, lol!
« Last Edit: July 13, 2016, 06:35:56 PM by muslim720 »
"Our coward ran from those in authority" - Iceman (admitting the truth regarding his 12th Imam)

muslim720

Re: Turbah: Sajdah to the Imams*
« Reply #17 on: July 13, 2016, 06:46:13 PM »
myth debunked - http://www.sistani.org/english/book/48/2224/

Here is what made me laugh: "Sajdah should be performed on earth, and on those things which are not edible nor worn, and on things which grow from earth (e.g. wood and leaves of trees). It is not permissible to perform Sajdah on things which are used as food or dress (e.g. wheat, barley and cotton etc.), or on things which are not considered to be parts of the earth (e.g. gold, silver, etc.). And in the situation of helplessness, asphalt and tar will have preference over other non-allowable things."

Leaves come from trees; cotton comes from trees.  The former is acceptable for prostration, the latter is not.  All this while we know that it was permissible, during the time of the Prophet [saw], to use a piece of cloth for prostration when praying outside if the ground was hot.

Who makes these rules?  I bet Shias make rules as they go along, lol!
« Last Edit: July 13, 2016, 06:48:17 PM by muslim720 »
"Our coward ran from those in authority" - Iceman (admitting the truth regarding his 12th Imam)

ShiaMan

Re: Turbah: Sajdah to the Imams*
« Reply #18 on: July 13, 2016, 07:56:31 PM »

No one said "the face".  But the Prophet [saw] mentioned the nose after mentioning the forehead.  And while at it, he [saw] did not say "mustahab but it is definitely not wajib".  The Prophet [saw] included the nose.  If you do not like it and prefer to make prostration on a turbah that leaves your nose hanging, then you have a problem with the Prophet [saw] not me.

You said it brother:
There are 7.  One of those 7 points is the face (nose plus forehead).

But the Prophet [saw] mentioned the nose after mentioning the forehead.  And while at it, he [saw] did not say "mustahab but it is definitely not wajib".  The Prophet [saw] included the nose.  If you do not like it and prefer to make prostration on a turbah that leaves your nose hanging, then you have a problem with the Prophet [saw] not me.
Perhaps in all 4 schools of Sunni thought the nose is a requirement, not in shia fiqh and of course we all know Shia fiqh came before the 4 Sunni schools.

No but you are also not in sajdah if everything touches the ground but not your nose.  Your sajdah is invalid even if your toes are lifted off the ground as I stated in my previous post but you, like many other Shias I have dealt with, want a "yes or no" so as to strait-jacket me into a favorable situation.  Keep trying!  You'll only tighten the noose around your own neck, lol!
So then there are 8 points of contact and not 7. Let me count for you:
1) Right big toe
2) Left Big toe
3) Right Knee
4) Left Knee
5) Right Palm
6) Left Palm
7) Forehead
8) Nose.

The noose be a tightin'

Here is what made me laugh: "Sajdah should be performed on earth, and on those things which are not edible nor worn, and on things which grow from earth (e.g. wood and leaves of trees). It is not permissible to perform Sajdah on things which are used as food or dress (e.g. wheat, barley and cotton etc.), or on things which are not considered to be parts of the earth (e.g. gold, silver, etc.). And in the situation of helplessness, asphalt and tar will have preference over other non-allowable things."

Leaves come from trees; cotton comes from trees.  The former is acceptable for prostration, the latter is not.  All this while we know that it was permissible, during the time of the Prophet [saw], to use a piece of cloth for prostration when praying outside if the ground was hot.

Who makes these rules?  I bet Shias make rules as they go along, lol!

And of course the 4 Sunni Schools of thought do not have any rules around salah, sawn, hajj, etc. Is that why I see you guys praying with shoes on?

ShiaMan

Re: Turbah: Sajdah to the Imams*
« Reply #19 on: July 13, 2016, 09:21:50 PM »
As I understand it, the Malikis, Shafi’is and Hanafis do not require tip of nose but Hanbalis do. Looking for anyone to validate one way or another.

 

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